sky, turtle

[Richard L. Dieterle]

The connection between WI ke, "sky," and ke, "turtle," is interesting. It could
be that WI ke meant "the vaulted one."  In one of the Redhorn Cycle myths, the
sons of Redhorn go on the warpath against two spirit beings who live beyond the
edge of the earth.  They have to cross the place where the sky meets the earth.
They say that at this place a loud banging noise arises from the rocking
sky-vault slamming against the rim of the earth.  This shows that at least some
of the WI believed that the sky is a solid vault.  However, Marino (from Radin's
notes) says that ke may also mean "frog," but a question mark is placed after
it.  I have yet to see ke as "frog" attested.  One form for "frog" is
wakaNaNshge (contemporary Wisc. WI), wakaNashke (Gatschet, Dorsey). Another of
the words for frog, toad is kewaxgu (contemporary WI, Lamere, Marino-Radin). The
contemporary Wisc. WI recognize kewashorocge as the word for "box turtle,"
however.   A very common form of "turtle" is kecaNk, caNk meaning, "great, big,
genuine, proper, etc."  Vide, shuNk, "canine, dog," vs. shuNkcaNk, "wolf (great
canine, canine proper)." It could be that kecaNk is meant to differentiate
turtles from frogs.  However, it may be the ke originally came to be applied to
frogs in derivation from the sense meaning "turtle."

Responding to the message of
<Pine.GSO.3.96.1010216021554.6503J-100000 at spot.colorado.edu>
from siouan at lists.colorado.edu:
>
> Oops.  This ought to have gone to the list.  Nailed by the return to what
> problem in spite of my own good advice.  JEK
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 02:07:25 -0700 (MST)
> From: Koontz John E <koontz at spot.colorado.edu>
> To: Lance Foster <ioway at earthlink.net>
> Subject: Re: U.S. President and cloud/sky: more.
>
> On Wed, 14 Feb 2001, Lance Foster wrote:
> > The Iowa chiefs Mahaska, White Cloud, was spelled historically different
> > ways. Together these ways (ex: Monhaska, Monhashka, Mahaska, Mahaskan, JGT
> > Maxu(we)=xga) can reveal some things.
>
> I suspect the spellings of 'White Cloud' are intended to render MaNgheska,
> in which maNghe is the "form 1" 'sky' term not otherwise attested in
> Ioway-Otoe and Winnebago.  I wonder if the name is borrowed froma language
> that does have this term or if this is a relict.  I can't think of any way
> to be sure!  I suppose the name might be MaNghuska, too.
>
> > As Marsh/Whitman noted, "s" (?Prepalatal sibilant) was changing to
> v> (alveolar) "sh".. and JGT noted that even more recently in some family
> > dialects, the s/sh was being realized as "x". Thus JGT has "xga" as
> > "white", but earlier forms were ska/shka, very much like Om/Dak (again
> > correct me if I am off base).
>
> I think hka is a variant of (older) ska ~ (newer) <th>ka.
>
> > IO does have another term, kera/kela (I am still deciding whether to go
> > with l or r in my presentation to the learner and I think JGT goes back and
> > forth too), which is glossed "the clear blue sky (at dawn)", a Bear Clan
> > name. "To" is blue, so kela has more to do with clarity.. although for
> > water (and for thinking), bredhe is "clear."
>
> Notice that here we have IO ? khera, cf. Dieterle's report of Wi kera, and
> LaFlesche has kkedha 'sky, the unclouded or clear sky.  (What is the
> source for the IO form, by the way?)  Teton has kheya 'to make a roof of',
> analyzed as a causative of 'turtle' by Buechel.  I'm not sure if that's a
> clue or a red herring.  I think earth is a turtle shell, but not the sky.
>
> Also, while one might wonder about *hkera 'sky', there's this from David
> Costa:
>
> ====
> Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 20:58:59 -0800
> From: David Costa <pankihtamwa at earthlink.net>
> To: Koontz John E <John.Koontz at colorado.edu>,
>     Michael Mccafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>
> Subject: Re: Sky and clouds (fwd)
>
> A Miami-Illinois word for 'sky'? Certainly, /kii$ikwi/.
> =====
>
> The $ is s^.
>
> > IO "maNshi" is high, as in ahemaN'shi = ahe "hill" + maN'shi "high" =
> > mountain. But maN'shi also is related to maNgri(da), "above (as in the
> > sky).
>
> The first has a cognate in Omaa-Ponca.  I think the second is perhaps not
> related, though it has the same first syllable.
>
> Also, compare Dakotan {waNkatuya or WaNkal literally 'up there, high up'},
> offered by Bruce Ingham with Winnebago {maxi wange'ja, heaven, sky ("sky
> above") [Gatschet]}, offered by Richard Dieterle, in which waNka- matches
> waNge-, implying *waNk(e)  'high'.  I'm not sure if the first part of IO
> maNgrida is related or not.
>
> JEK
>
>
>
> .