Tutelo & Miami

[David Costa]

I readily admit, I don't know from archaeology. But Toledo, OH is still
quite close to the historical location of the Miamis in northern Indiana,
when you get right down to it. If you're saying the precontact homeland of
the Tutelos is thought to be the 'upper Ohio', i.e., western Pennsylvania or
thereabouts, then we *almost* have the M-I's and Tutelos next to each other,
but not quite.

Out of curiosity, what hard evidence IS there for locating the Tutelos
before European contact?

Dave

> Thanks for the linguistic focus, Dave.
> I'm wondering how far back in the past could this change have taken place in
> your estimation. Lately archaeological discoveries are pointing to a Miami-
> Illinois-speaking presence in the lower Maumee valley during the Sandusky
> Tradition (ca. 1250-1650 AD). Confirmed historic Illinois pots known as Danner
> Ware are identical to a type known as Fort Meigs Notched Applique, et related
> varieties, in the vicinity of Toledo. This placement of MI folks in
> northwestern Ohio would not be that far from the putative Tutelo late historic
> estate on the upper Ohio.
>
> Michael
>
> Quoting David Costa <pankihtamwa at earthlink.net>:
>
>> As one of the two authors of that article on Algonquian numeral words in the
>> Siebert Festschrift, I can say that number borrowing is *very* common within
>> Algonquian, but *much* rarer if you're talking about Algonquian borrowing
>> from outside the family. We didn't address the issue of 'why' any of these
>> numbers were borrowed, beyond pointing out possible trade contexts. The
>> number eight doesn't have any special mythical significance that I'm aware
>> of, and that question seems unanswerable to me. All I can say is that the
>> original Proto-Algonquian word for 'eight' was lost by the earliest records
>> of Miami-Illinois, and replaced with a neologism meaning 'two missing' or
>> something like that (/nii$omeneehki/); that form is preserved in certain
>> Illinois dialects. But in other Illinois dialects, you have the Tutelo loan
>> /paraare/, and by the modern language it's /palaani/. Intervocalic Illinois
>> /r/ becoming later M-I /n/ is not normal, but both of those variants *are*
>> attested in Tutelo. So what seems to be happening is the Tutelo > M-I
>> borrowing was so recent, it was borrowed in different forms in different M-I
>> dialects, and other dialects didn't do it at all. Which says that the period
>> of the M-I speakers being next to the Tutelo wasn't all that long ago, which
>> seems very interesting to me, since Indiana and Illinois aren't very
>> geographically close to central Virgina...
>>
>> David
>>
>>
>>> Can't say for sure, of course, but those higher numeral terms, esp. 8 and 9,
>>> seem rather unstable within Siouan at least.  Nine is widely borrowed in or
>>> between Siouan and Algonquian, i.e., the /ki$aNhka/ term.  It is very hard
>>> to reconstruct 7, 8, 9 for Proto-Siouan without appealing to "irregular"
>>> changes. 'Eight' is also borrowed in Kansa (and, I think, Osage) and
>>> resulted in competing forms.  Kaw has /ppe:ya:bliN/, the inherited form,
>>> along with /kkiado:ba/ which looks very much like a Caddoan borrowing --
>>> prob. from Wichita (although there is a folk etymology analyzing it as "two
>>> X four").

>>> There's that article on Algonquian numeral words in the Siebert Festschrift,
>>> but I haven't read it yet.
>
>> > Bob
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Michael Mccafferty" <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>
>> > To: <siouan at lists.colorado.edu>
>> > Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 8:34 AM
>> > Subject: Behind the 8-ball
>> >
>>
>>>> As many of you know, the Miami-Illinois term for "eight" /paraani/ is, as
>>>> Bob Rankin pointed out in an article in IJAL several years ago, a borrowing
>>>> from a Siouan language. Tutelo typically gets the nod.
>
>>>> Can anyone suggest why this happened? No, not that Bob wrote it up, but
that
>>>> such a borrowing occurred. It's one of the strangest things. I imagine,
>>>> since we're talking numbers, that it was borrowed probably in the process
of
>>>> trading. But does the number 8 have any mythological meaning?
>
>>>> Thanks, Michael
>
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