Fw: paduka identity

Thu Sep 29 17:09:00 UTC 2005

Mark,
The following information may helpful or add more questions, since I have found sources that identify the Padouca or Paducah Indians as being Plains Apache, Comanche, Caddo, and a sub-tribe of Chickasaw. I find all of it interesting.
Jonathan 

1. In the book published in 1988 titled "The Pawnee Indians" by George E. Hyde (Volume 128 in the The Civilization of the American Indian Series - ISBN: 0-8061-2094-0)  there is a section of the Appendix that talks about the Padouca Indians, as noted by the following quote from a review of the book..."One item of special interest is the section of the appendix discussing the true identity of the Padouca Indians so often mentioned in early French accounts." - Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly. I do not know what it says, as I do not have the book in my library. However, perhaps you could track it down.

2. According to Antoine-Simon Le Page du Pratz in his work titled, “A Map of Louisiana, with the course of the Missisipi” in The History of Louisiana, or of the western parts of Virginia and Carolina. London, 1763, he presents the first published account of Etienne Veniard de Bourgmont’s expedition to the Padouca Indians, or Plains Apaches, in 1724. See: http://www.lib.virginia.edu/small/exhibits/lewis_clark/exploring/ch4-22.html

3. Transcribed from volume II of Kansas: a cyclopedia of state history, embracing events, institutions, industries, counties, cities, towns, prominent persons, etc. ... with a supplementary volume devoted to selected personal history and reminiscence. Standard Pub. Co. Chicago : 1912. 3 v. in 4. : front., ill., ports.; 28 cm. Vols. I-II edited by Frank W. Blackmar. Transcribed July 2002 by Carolyn Ward. 

"Jackson County, Kansas is one of the counties formed by the first territorial legislature in 1855, is located in the second tier south from Nebraska, and the second west from Missouri. It is bounded on the west by Pottawatomie county, on the south by Wabaunsee and Shawnee, on the east by Jefferson and Atchison, and on the north by Nemaha and Brown. It is 1,172 feet above the level of the sea. The first exploration in the regions that afterward became Jackson county was by M. De Bourgmont and his company of Frenchmen who made a journey in 1724 through the lands of the Kansas to the Padouca Indians. He passed through Jackson county in going from a point above Atchison to the Kansas river just west of Shawnee county." See: http://skyways.lib.ks.us/genweb/archives/1912/j/jackson_county.html

4. "In 1719 the Comanche are mentioned under their Siouan name of Padouca as living in what now is west Kansas. It must he remembered that from 500 to 800 miles was an ordinary range for a prairie tribe and that the Comanche were equally at home on the Platte and in the Bolson de Mapimi of Chihuahua. As late as 1805 the North Platte was still known as Padouca fork. At that time they roamed over the country about the heads of tile Arkansas, Red, Trinity, and Brazos rivers, in Colorado, Kansas, Oklahoma, and Texas." See:  http://www.accessgenealogy.com/native/tribes/comanche/comanchehist.htm

5. "The Comanche belonged to the Shoshonean linguistic family, a branch of Uto-Aztecan, its tongue being almost identical with that of the Shoshoni....Padouca, common early name, evidently from the name of the Penateka band." See: http://www.accessgenealogy.com/native/texas/comancheindianhistory.htm

6. Early Topeka Historical Outline. See: http://www.christian-oneness.org/topeka/histout.html

   Native American Period, ? to 1825 
      Native peoples before 17th Century appear to have been Caddoan, "black" Indians, the Padouca. 
      Kansa Indians arrived mid-17th Century. The Padoucas appear to first have been driven to the west end of the Kansa’s new range, where they were pressed against the Pawnee (a "black" Apache people). By 1800, the Padouca had been largely assimilated into the Kansa and Pawnee. 
      Kansa are a Dhegiha Sioux people, a "white" Native American tribe likely originally from area of present inland North Carolina, more or less. Migrated due to pressure from English settlements. Prior to arriving at destination, were once one people with the Omahas; these groups diverged late in their migration. Also related culturally, linguistically and genetically to the Osages, Poncas, Qapaws and Missouria. 

7.  "The City of Paducah, Kentucky is situated on the southern bank of the Ohio River in the north central portion of McCracken County. Now the county seat of McCracken County, Paducah owes its humble start to General George Rogers Clark, the famous Revolutionary War hero and older brother to William (of Lewis and Clark fame). Clark claimed 37,000 acres at the mouth of Tennessee River in 1795. After a land dispute with a local family, the U.S. Supreme Court granted the land in question to Clark, who promptly platted a town at the northernmost point of what is now the Tennesse Tombigbee Waterway. General Clark named the town Paducah in honor of the Padouca Indians, a peaceful subtribe of Chickasaws." See: http://www.kentucky-real-estates.com/paducah-homes-for-sale/cityprofile.htm

8. From the Journals of de Bourgmont, See: http://www.nebraskastudies.org/0300/frameset_reset.html?http://www.nebraskastudies.org/0300/stories/0301_0112_00.html The Journals of de Bourgmont

Éttienne de Veniard, sieur de Bourgmont was the first known white man to systematically explore the Missouri River basin and was the first to record his findings. After leaving France a convicted juvenile delinquent, Bourgmont settled in Canada and joined the military. When an Indian attack on Fort Pontchartrain (near modern day Detroit) damaged Bourgmont's reputation, the acting commander escaped to the wilderness. He lived with Indians for years at a time and became a notorious and powerful figure among the them, eventually becoming the king's personal envoy to the tribes that complicated France's desire for western expansion. The following journal entries chronicle Bourgmont's expedition to negotiate peace between and among the French, Pawnee, Oto, Kansa, and Padouca (or Plains Apache) Native American tribes. 

9. From the Paducah, Kentucky History prepared by Professor John E.L. Robertson states:

"The birthplace of Paducah at the confluence of the Ohio and Tennessee Rivers is just 12 miles below the Cumberland River and 25 miles above the broad Mississippi. Paducah is rightfully called the "River City." It 1779 George Rogers Clark's small army landed on the
Illinois shore just below the site of Paducah to attack British posts in Illinois. With only 150 men Clark captured for Virginia [and the emerging United States] all territory north of the Ohio and east of the Mississippi to the Appalachian Mountains. This feat was the greatest victory of any American commander in the Revolution. Clark noted the site of Paducah as a good location for a town at a later date. In 1795 Clark purchased a Treasury Warrant from
Virginia and located a claim on the Ohio and along the Tennessee in an attempt to recoup his personal finances; however, hostility of the Chickasaw prevented any further development during his lifetime. President James Monroe purchased the land between the Tennessee and the Mississippi rivers in what is now Kentucky and Tennessee from the Chickasaw in 1818. Isaac Shelby of Kentucky and Andrew Jackson of Tennessee represented the United States in these negotiations. Shelby was ill most of the time so Jackson did much of the work. In recognition, the treaty is known locally as the Jackson Purchase. The Senate ratified the treaty in 1819 but settlement was delayed due to a boundary dispute with Tennessee and to a deep depression that discouraged Kentuckians. Tennessee pushed ahead to open the Purchase area so that they could exploit what is now Memphis. Kentucky did not sell land beyond the Tennessee River until 1821. However, prior claims under Virginia were recorded. In fact,!
  two
 families claimed what is now Paducah. The Porterfield claim was based on a military warrant that normally took precedent over treasury warrants such as that of the Clark claim that now was held by Willliam Clark [of Lewis and Clark fame]. It took a U.S. Supreme Court decision in 1844 to resolve the dispute. In the meantime, William Clark took up the establishment of a town at the mouth of the Tennessee River. On April 27, 1827, William Clark wrote a letter to his son, Meriwether Lewis Clark, announcing that he was leaving St. Louis for the mouth of the Tennessee River to found a town that was to be named for the Pa-du-cah [a change in spelling from the French Padouca.] This tribe was "once the largest nation of Indians known in this country, and now almost forgotten." Enemies of the Padoucas received arms from France, Spain, and Great Britain and reduced the once proud people to slaves. William wished to perpetuate the memory of this gallant people corrupted by contact with!
  European
 civilization and made certain that people could pronounce the name by using the English spelling." See:  http://www.paducahky.com/history.html

10. Lastly, comes the following two reviews of George Bird Grinnell's paper: See: http://www.publicanthropology.org/Archive/Aa1920.htm

Grinnell, George Bird. Who Were The Padouca? American Anthropologist 1920 Vol.22: 248-260.

George Bird Grinnell’s objective in this article is to examine historical documents in hopes of determining the true identity of the Padouca. Grinnell identifies the Padouca as indigenous peoples who lived in the "central plains from the Black Hills region south to the Arkansas or beyond" (1920:248). For Grinnell, the primary question is whether or not the Padouca peoples are the same as the Comanche peoples recorded in these documents. He provides an extensive list of historical accounts from Spanish and French expeditions during the eighteenth century and early nineteenth century, which mention the Padouca or indigenous groups living around the area outlined above. However these accounts do not correspond, primarily due to conflicting names and areas. For example Grinnell refers to old maps that contain the word Padouca located in slightly different locations, as well as records from the expeditions of Lewis and Clark in the early nineteenth century that record names that !
 they only
 interpret as representing the Padouca. In addition, Grinnell concludes based upon the majority of the documents that the Padouca most likely have lived in sedentary villages, while the Comanche are not recorded to have had permanent dwellings or to have been agriculturalists. Yet the author insightfully acknowledges that much of this information is composed of statements reported second hand, and therefore "generally must not be taken too literally" (1920:253). After reviewing these various sources, Grinnell finds no reasonable basis to assume that the Padouca were in fact the Comanche, and surprisingly states therefore they must be regarded as Apache. I feel Grinnell falls short in this additional conclusion as there does not appear enough documentation provided in order to make such an assumption. Grinnell provides numerable documents to support this conclusion, however it is somewhat difficult to keep track of all the various expeditions and exactly where the various ind!
 igenous
 groups were thought to have lived.

CLARITY: 4

JAIME HOLTHUYSEN University of British Columbia, Vancouver, (John Barker)

Grinnell, George Bird. Who Were the Padouca? American Anthropologist, 1920  Vol.22: 248-260.

This article is mainly concerned with finding out which North American Native group is the most likely candidate for the Padouca, a name that has long since been obsolete.  The only remnants of this name come from eighteenth-century maps of the central plains region and early accounts by explorers and inhabitants of the area and its surroundings.  Some regard the Padouca as the Comanche, the Cataka, or the Apache, among others. 

The Comanche, amongst them all, are thought most often to be the Padouca.  Grinnell spends a great portion of his article trying to refute this claim.  He reports that a Frenchman by the name of Bourgmont, who was passing the area that is said to be where the Padouca resided, noted that the group of people living in this area lived in houses for most of the year and also had some sort of agriculture.  This is contrary to the Comanche, as told by the Pawnees, who did not live in permanent or semi-permanent houses or engage in agriculture.The great American explorers Lewis and Clark believed that the Padouca were actually the Cataka.  Grinnell simply invalidates this claim by stating that Lewis and Clark received most of their information of the plains Indians second-hand by other Indians and men who had been around the area.  Since they did not see themselves, then there can be no factual basis for their claim. In the mind of the author, the most likely candidate for the Pado!
 uca are
 the Apache.  He states that the Apache, like the Padouca, had the same kind of living arrangements; semi-permanent to permanent housing with agricultural means of survival.  At the very end of the article, Grinnell states that there is no definite evidence of the actual identity of the Padouca, but he is convinced that the Apache, not the Comanche, are the winners.

CLARITY RANKING: 2

ZANETA L. MARTINEZ    University of Texas at San Antonio  (James H. McDonald)

Mark-Awakuni Swetland <mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu> wrote:
Aloha All,
Perhaps someone can assist this fellow in his inquiry about the Patoka/Paduca, please! My response was limited to the Fletcher and La Flesche source.
Mahalo!
Mark Awakuni-Swetland

----- Original Message ----- From: Barry Haglan 
To: Mark-Awakuni Swetland 
Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 9:40 AM
Subject: Re: paduka identity

mark, I pestered old John White about the paduca thing, and he said that when he was going through stuff on the Miami tribe, he kept running into the term Patoka. There's a river in Indiana named the Patoka River, in the old Miami-Wea-Piankashaw stomping grounds. He pretty much insisted on the meaning as slave by the Miamis, and said he thought the whole William Clark thing of naming the city of Paduca was complete B.S. I have the George Hyde article on Paduca identity, but the first page is missing, which would be the part before the migration across the Mississippi. Maybe we'll never know for sure, but I think it could be the stuff of a juicy manga comic or a screenplay.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Mark-Awakuni Swetland 
To: Barry Haglan 
Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 12:03 PM
Subject: Re: paduka identity

Barry,
the Paduka are usually glossed as the contemporary Comache. The Comanche are a relatively newly formed group of Shoshoni bands emerging from the Great Basin onto the Southern Great Plains. It is my understanding that they are classed linguistically as Uto-Aztecan, not Dhegiha/Siouan

This does not seem to match the information and references you are citing. I cannot suggest an alternative persective to the Mississippi valley appearance or the "slave" aspect.

In Fletcher and La Flesche "The Omaha Tribe" 1911:49, 79-80, 88 the Padouca are noted as follows: The Ponca reportedly encountered the Padouca on their buffalo hunts near the Rocky Mountains. The Ponca and Padouca battled until a Ponca killed a Padouca warrior, following which the Padouca sued for peace.

Omaha were reported as knowing the Padouca in their western-most territory, and knowing of a Padouca village on the Dismal River.

Mark Awakuni-Swetland
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Barry Haglan 
To: mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu 
Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 11:35 AM
Subject: paduka identity

dr. a-s, my friend John White, a student of the Illinois-speaking tribes, told me that the Paduka were a Dhegiha group that didn't cross the Mississippi until circa 1710. He said Paduka meant "slave" in Illinois-Miami, and both the Chickasaw and Illini raided them for fresh genetics. Have you ever heard of anyone calling themselves Paduka? The only thing I've seen is an old paper by George Hyde that leaves out a lot. Sounds like a good title for a Tarantino thriller...SEARCH  for the LOST PADUKAS!

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