Yuecetu - Re: A great Polymath

Tue Jun 27 20:10:45 UTC 2006

Hi Clive,

  > Now regarding Biloxi & Ofo, I do know where I can get my hands on a copy of J.O. Dorsey & J. Swanton's dictionary - guess what?: another library stack! :)) I'd like to learn a little, so then you will have someone to write/speak to >

  You might be a little frustrated, as so many of us are, at the user-UNfriendliness of the Dorsey-Swanton (D-S) Biloxi dictionary.  I am currently working to revise the Biloxi-English dictionary into a more user-friendly format, and the English-Biloxi index into a format where you can simply look up the English word and get the full Biloxi translation(s).  If you pick up the D-S dictionary, you'll see what I mean.  I am also working to revise the orthography, which is also quite complex (and sometimes misleading) in the D-S dictionary AND later in Einaudi's grammar dissertation.

  > could you kindly tell me what that phrase you wrote means exactly, and if you have time, how it "deconstructs", grammatically speaking? >

  Actually, I should have written it: TaneksaNya ade aNkiNxtispeye (with the verb at the end).  Taneks-aNya = Biloxi person / ade = language or speech / aNk = 1 sg / iNxti = self / spe = know / ye = cause, or "I'm teaching myself Biloxi language."

  Einaudi's grammar is a good overview of Biloxi, since it's really the first grammar ever done on the language.  But it is not flawless in that she oversimplified Biloxi orthography by simply stripping off all the accent marks, which, as we're now finding out, is somewhat misleading.  I'm doing some Siouan comparative research to find out how some of the D-S symbols actually should be represented in Biloxi.  Hopefully I can get an updated/revised grammar together along with the revised dictionary.  (Unfortunately, my time is quite limited, as it is for all of us I'm sure, and I can't get as much done as fast as I would like!)

  > I must admit, I had never even heard of Rumsien Ohlone - I've just looked it up in Mithun : I notice that she lists a "Rumsey" under the Wintuan family, and a "Rumsen(Runsien)" (Utian-Miwok-Costanoan). Would I be correct it assuming yours to be the latter? Penutian seems to be such a vast family, does it not? >

  Not sure if I should be talking about Rumsien on the Siouan list (although it is at least an Amerindian language), but to answer your questions, it is indeed the latter (Rumsen).  I think the jury's still out on what Penutian actually includes, although some propose that it includes languages all the way up into British Columbia and down into Mexico (Mixe-zoquean).  The Ohlone languages are definitely close to Miwok.  Since, right now anyway, I live in the Bay Area, I'm definitely enjoying working on one of the Ohlone languages.  It's nice to know I'm treading the same ground upon which these Indians once trod, and their descendants still do. 

  > "Hello"/"How are you?"/"I'm well"/"See You" etc. in Biloxi? >

  Hello = he ha, or beshu (this latter from the Louisiana French bonjour)
  How are you = (I think this would be) YaNdi phi wo?  Is your heart good?
  I'm well = YaNdi phi (na)!

  Not sure how they said "goodbye" or "see you"!  

  And just for good measure: Misix tuuxis (hello or "good day" in Rumsien)!

  Cheers,
  Dave

Clive Bloomfield <cbloom at ozemail.com.au> wrote:
  Hello again, Dave, Thanks for that cordial greeting in Romanian & English! Your command of RomÃ¢neÅŸte looks pretty comprehensive to me :)! In answer to your query, I guess my fascination for Lakhotaiyapi all began,(probably) when, as an avid juvenile TV-viewer of the "Mickey Mouse Club", way back in the mid to late 1950's, on a Wednesday ("Anything Can Happen Day"), they had a Lakota kid, (prob. about 9 or 10 years of age,), all bedecked in traditional garb - buckskins, hairpipe breastplate, and impressive feathered war-bonnet (the lot!) ,saying some words in Lakota for us, and telling us about the Oyate's way of life. I can still see his face, & hear him saying : "Lakhota",Â  "washte"; and of course, "thathanka"! :D (I wonder who he was, & what ever became of him? : but perhaps it is better not to know, eh?) My next contact after that, (apart from the usual Hollywood Western-derived "noble/devilish Sioux" stereotypes), would have been at Sydney University's Fisher
 Library stack, decades later, when one day I unearthed an long-neglected, yellowing original 1939 edition of Father Buechel's Grammar of Lakota. At the time, I was supposed to be studying Ancient Greek & Latin, so I took it back in, making a mental note of its location. Then about 15 years after that, I remembered it & acquired it, via interlibrary loan. (By this time I had transferred to Melbourne, abt. 600 miles south.) Also, Hollywood had "roped me in" again, with "Dances with Wolves", but this time I could actually, for the first time ever, hear Lakhota spoken! I was hooked forever, by the sheer beauty of its sound, and I decided to knuckle down and make a serious effort to learn it. Then came the Information Superhighway...!Â  Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â
 Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â So, you're doing research on Biloxi, eh? I must say Dave, that I find it unutterably melancholy to hear that a language has become extinct, and that you have nobody to speak it with! In my forebears' language, Irish Gaelic (an Ghaeilge), we have a wistful proverb that translates : "Bitter is the bird, which sings for (or 'to') itself alone." I am interested in all Native American languages, but particularly in the Siouan, Na-Dene, Algonquian & Muskogean families. If I had another lifetime,(alas!) I would probably try to learn something at least about all the Siouan ones! Now regarding Biloxi & Ofo, I do know where I can get my hands on a copy of J.O. Dorsey & J. Swanton's dictionary - guess what?: another library stack! :)) I'd like to learn a little, so then you will have someone to write/speak to, if you like. Dave, could you kindly tell me what that phrase you wrote :
 (Ä„kÄ¯xtispeye taneksÄ
ye ade) means exactly, and if you have time, how it "deconstructs", grammatically speaking? Would you recommend Einaudi's Grammar (1976)? Toksa ake, Clive.Â  Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â Â  Â P.S. I must admit, I had never even heard of Rumsien Ohlone - I've just looked it up in Mithun : I notice that she lists a "Rumsey" under the Wintuan family, and a "Rumsen(Runsien)" (Utian-Miwok-Costanoan). Would I be correct it assuming yours to be the latter? Penutian seems to be such a vast family, does it not? P.P.S. How do you say "Hello"/"How are you?"/"I'm well"/"See You" etc. in Biloxi? :)Â   Â 
    On 27/06/2006, at 4:31 AM, David Kaufman wrote:

    > Hello to Dave also, BunÃ„Æ’ dimineaÃˆâ€ºa! Ce mai faceÃˆâ€ºi? MÃ„Æ’ bucur cÃ„Æ’ vÃ„Æ’ vÃ„Æ’d : ÃƒÅ½ncÃƒÂ®ntat sÃ„Æ’ vÃ„Æ’ cunosc! Unde aÃˆâ€ºi ÃƒÂ®nvÃ„Æ’Ãˆâ€ºat romÃƒÂ®neÃ
Å¸te? Eu am ÃƒÂ®nvÃ„Æ’Ãˆâ€ºat cÃƒÂ®teva cuvinte Ã
Å¸i expresii romÃƒÂ¢neÃ
Å¸te. Noroc! La revedere! >
  Â 
  Gâ€™day Clive! Bine aÅ£i venit la lista! Placere!Â Am Ã®nvÄƒÅ£at RomÃ¢neÅŸte de sine. Adeverat, nu putesc vorbi romÃ¢neÅŸteÂ foarte bine. ÃŽmi place limba romÃ¢na, dar putesc sÄƒ vorbesc alte limbe latine mult mai bine. 
  Â 
  I'm impressed with your Lakota ability!Â  How did you get interested in Amerindian languages, particularly Siouan?Â  Ä„kÄ¯xtispeye taneksÄ
ya ade.Â  That is, I'm working on Biloxi, but the problem is there's no one left to speak it with!Â  The other Amerindian language I'm currently involved with is Rumsien Ohlone (Penutian), also unfortunately extinct, helping to transcribeÂ John P. Harrington's voluminous piles of notes on the language.
  Â 
  La revedere!
  Â 
  Dave

> ________________________________
>
> From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of David Kaufman
> Sent: Sun 6/25/2006 1:12 PM
> To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
> Subject: Re: Yuecetu - Re: A great Polymath
>
>
> Vreau sa stiu ce ÃƒÂ®ntelesul Lakotei.
>
> Approximate translation from Rumanian: What's this say?
>
> (I know the first is Lakota and the second Hungarian. Would my 
> Dakota dictionary be of any help here?)
>
> Dave

>
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