3 Osage Names

[Rankin, Robert L]

Hey, great work!
 
And the 2nd chief Washingsaba should be 'Black Bird" (as opposed to blackbird) rather than the more-romantic-sounding "Black Spirit", I suppose.
 
"Big Warrior" looks like an attempt, filtered thru English, to reproduce something like
 
Mashatita tonga.  I don't recognize that right off, except for the tonga part.  Could have a ch rather than the Fr. pronunciation of sh too.
 
In another hour or so Carolyn will be struggling out of bed out there in Long Beach and we'll all learn the truth.
 
Bob

________________________________

From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Justin McBride
Sent: Fri 12/7/2007 9:04 AM
To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
Subject: Re: 3 Osage Names



Wel... I did a search online for Gretomih, and came up with the following
from the http://www.ackland.org/art/exhibitions/seasonsofparis/osage.html
website:

    THE OSAGES IN PARIS
    In July 1827, a party of six Osage Indians, four men and two
    women, arrived in France from Missouri and traveled to Paris,
    where they created a sensation as representatives of an exotic
    culture.  An article in the Journal des Debats described them as
    chief, Kihegashugah (or Little Chief), aged 38, his wife
    Myhangah and cousin Gretomih, both women aged 18, as
    second chief Washingsaba (Black Spirit), aged 32, and his two
    followers Marcharthitatoongah (Big Warrior) aged 45 and
    Minkchatahooh (Little Warrior) aged 22.  They were
    accompanied by a half-Indian, half-French man who served as
    interpreter.

So, just forget all that stuff I was saying about Kaw names!  It looks like
we've found them:

Gretomih           =  (same)              'Hawk Woman'    LetáN WiN
Kishagashugah   =  Kihegashugah   'Little Chief'         Kahíke Z^íNka
Minckchatahooh = Minkchatahooh 'Little Warrior'     ?????

I just have no idea how the 'Little Warrior' name actually breaks down.



----- Original Message -----
From: "Justin McBride" <jmcbride at kawnation.com>
To: <siouan at lists.colorado.edu>
Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 8:43 AM
Subject: Re: 3 Osage Names


I think Bob's on the money with Gretomih.  It looks like LetáN WiN, 'hawk
woman,' where there are variant forms letáN~letóN for 'hawk,' and (I think)
wiN~miN~mi for the female ending.  I looked in Burns's "Osage Indians Bands
and Clans" (© 1984, Ciga Press, Fallbrook, CA) for names similar to
Kishagashugah and Minckchatahooh, but came up with nothing.  But these sorts
of transcriptions are notoriously slippery (read: awful), so it's possible
you'd have to tweak them a whole lot to get them to the point where they
would resemble something.  For instance, I can imagine the -shugah part of
Kishagashugah being z^üce, 'red,' depending on whether or not these names
passed through English filters over time; for some reason English speakers
seem ever-ready to associate g with j^-like sounds and j with z^-like
sounds.  This would probably not be the case, however, if Boilly intended
his work for a French audience.

I keep coming back to the fact that these names look a little more like what
I've seen in Kaw names than Osage names.  For instance, the possible use of
miN for the female form in Gretomih lines up more with Kaw's tendency to
nasalize w before nasal vowels (compare Osage wíNxci to Kaw míNxc^i 'one').
Plus, I can more easily see the -shugah part  Kishagashugah as Kaw z^üj^e,
than Osage z^üce, 'red.'  Lastly, the first part of Minckchatahooh looks a
whole lot like Kaw míNxc^i 'one' or míNj^e 'bow.'  I can even imagine a
situation where Boilly's handwriting of minckc may have actually been
mincho, which looks a lot like Kaw miNcho 'grizzly bear.'

By the way, what are the genders of the individuals associated with these
names?

Good luck,
-Justin


----- Original Message -----
From: "Rankin, Robert L" <rankin at ku.edu>
To: <siouan at lists.colorado.edu>
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 11:25 PM
Subject: RE: 3 Osage Names


Gretomih looks like the first part, greto, would be 'hawk'.  Mih would be
'female, woman' if the letters ih are to be pronounced like the ee in keep.
Otherwise it's a mystery to me.  This is interesting because the sequence
gr- in Osage came to be pronounced as L over a century ago.

bob

________________________________

From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Billy Maxwell
Sent: Thu 12/6/2007 8:58 PM
To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
Subject: 3 Osage Names


Tom or anyone,
Just wondering if these names were translatable?
Billy
Dear Billy,
I have two colored lithographs of the same Osage Indians by Louis-
Léopold Boilly (1761-1845) from 1827 in my collection. In this time
this Osage Indian group travelled around in Europe. I sent separate the
photos . I know three names of these Indians Grétomih, Kishagashugah
and Minckchatahooh.

Greetings
Kilian from old Germany