ki 'by itself'

Tue Dec 11 15:39:14 UTC 2007

(quoting David)
  >There is another morpheme with similar 
>behavior, khi, that means "in the middle". I've never tried to decide 
>what category to put that into.

  I'm happy to report that I have a pretty complex khi-file in my data that hasn't been prematurely removed from the files that needed further work, like the ki-file. khi- is certainly less productive than ki- and has a meaning that is extremely hard to pin down. In some cases, a concept such as separative would fit, and it also has meanings implying a divisioninto two components. khi- is semantically sufficiently distinct from ki- to neglect it in our discussion of ki-.

  Regina

ROOD DAVID S <David.Rood at Colorado.EDU> wrote:

Sorry, I haven't been following this thread at all, until I got Regina's 
message. I am firmly convinced that this Lak. "ki" is "instrumental" in 
the sense that it fits the same kind of slots as na, wo, ka, etc. etc. 
And it is unaspirated "ki". There is another morpheme with similar 
behavior, khi, that means "in the middle". I've never tried to decide 
what category to put that into.

Two examples that Regina didn't mention (sorry if someone else already 
brought them up):
ki-washicu 'to take on White man's ways'
ki-Lakhota 'to behave like an Indian' (this is always pejorative 
in my experience, means something like 'making an idiot of himself by
pretending to be Indian'.)

David S. Rood
Dept. of Linguistics
Univ. of Colorado
295 UCB
Boulder, CO 80309-0295
USA
rood at colorado.edu

On Mon, 10 Dec 2007, Rankin, Robert L wrote:

> I found gilazo 'become well' and gini 'recover, regain consciousness' with gi- rather than *kki- in Kansa, so I'm already unhappy with my 'reflexive' analysis, below. This does seem to be productive use of the gi- found in cognates for gini all across MVS. I don't have it in Kaw used with nouns, as in 'to become a buffalo' but that may simply be a gap in documentation.
>
> Bob
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Rankin, Robert L
> Sent: Mon 12/10/2007 2:33 PM
> To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
> Subject: RE: FEELINGS (Abstract Notions)
>
>
> The prefix related to IOM gi- 'by striking' is Dakotan ka-.
>
> I'm going to stick my neck out and plunk for a meaning derived from the reflexive, not the instrumental (which has the wrong vowel). It would help if everyone contributing to this discussion marked aspiration unequivocally. Using the practical spelling system increases the liklihood of non-cognate comparisons and mistakes. Is the the Dakotan ki- that we're talking about ki- or khi-?
>
> I guess I'd tend to think of "to become a snake" as something approximately like 'to be-snake onself' = reflexive. I guess I'd better check and see what I have for these in Dhegiha.
>
> Bob
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Jimm GoodTracks
> Sent: Mon 12/10/2007 7:39 AM
> To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
> Subject: Re: FEELINGS (Abstract Notions)
>
>
> Perhaps I missed it, as to this prefix "ki-" in L/Dakota. Below, it is said that it's "in the sence of 'become'/ 'turn to'". So then, is it an instrumental prefix or is it a reflexsive element?? If a reflexive, which is the same element for reflexive in IOM, I can see how it able to effect the meanings and conotations below. If it is an instrumental, ....I'll further understanding, as the equivalent in IOM is "gi-" indicating the action is accomplished by means of an instrument.
> Jimm
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: shokooh Ingham 
> To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
> Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 6:47 AM
> Subject: Re: FEELINGS (Abstract Notions)
>
> I know kimathathanka 'turn into a buffalo', kizuzeca 'turn into a snake', kiwitko 'go mad', kiwanice 'turn into nothing' and kiwe 'turn into blood'; a very useful prefix. You can also use ic'icag^a/mic'icag^e 'make oneself into', but I think that is more conscious, whereas the first is non-intentional perhaps.
> Bruce
>
> ""Alfred W. Tüting"" wrote:
>
> > Fascinating examples from Clive. The use of a- to mean 'more than' is an interesting one in Lakota. It seems to be not totally productive and is a bit illusive, but one sees examples of it. I have a feeling that it is more frequent in Dakota, but can't think on what basis I have this feeling. Does anyone else have this impression?
> Bruce <
>
>
>
>
> It's my impression that with regard to productiveness, it's maybe comparable to the use of ki- (in the sense of "become", "turn to") e.g. kiaguyapi (to turn into bread). Does anyone happen to know of other renderings like "turn into stone" (petrify) or such??
>
>
> Alfred
>
>
> ""Alfred W. TÃ¼ting"" wrote:
>
> > "LochiNpi kiN he iyes^ akhiphapi kta thawat'elyapi na iyoks^ica uNpi
> > kiN he e athawat'elyapi s^ni kiN hecha."
>
> > [=As for themselves, they preferred facing hunger,
> to living in
> > sadness (i.e. loneliness) - such were their (feelings) or 'such was
> > their situation'.]
> > (lit. : they felt willing to face the prospect of hunger, and they
> > did not feel a greater willingness to be living in desolation -
> > that's the way it was).
>
>
>
>
> (LoÄ> iyokiá¹¡ica un pi kin he e
> aá¹«awat'elya pi á¹¡ni kin hÃ©Ä>
>
> (...)
>
>
> BTW, I like your reading of a-á¹«awat'elyA <- a-waá¹¡te (better than), it's very
> convincing.
>
>
> Alfred
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
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>
>

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