Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to'

[Rankin, Robert L]

All,
 
Pardon my temporary absence.  We have had no electric power at my home since 3:15 p.m. Wednesday.  The REA Cooperative that provides electricity to our part of the county says they will try to have everythig up and running again by Saturday evening, but another storm is scheduled for Friday night.  
 
I had not thought of the vertitive as derived from possessive or dative, but I must admit that it took me an inordinately long time to sort out all the various k(h)i's.  There tends to be at least a little semantic overlap among nearly all of them, aspirated or not.  I had to make a comparative chart of all the usual ones before things became even reasonably clear.  And even then, I tended to get things in the wrong columns.  I've redone it a couple of times.  I've toyed with the idea that all the KI's are somehow derived from the same source somehow, but it doesn't work in a way that most comparativists would find convincing.  And, as far as I know, Catawban doesn't help.
 
If *k- is the normal vertitive and hi in Daktoan is the normal 'arrive here', then why wouldn't the vertitive of hi be khi?
 
I seem to recall that John Koontz had explained the development of all these forms in one of his papers.  I'll have to look for Allan's.
 
More later as things get back to normal here.
 
Bob (cold and in the dark in Kansas)

________________________________

From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Jan Ullrich
Sent: Thu 12/13/2007 10:26 AM
To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
Subject: RE: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to'



David,

Thanks for clarifying that. I don't have enough background in historical
and comparative linguistics to decide between the two ki-, but I do
agree that vertitives mean "come/go back" rather than "come/go home".
Is it possible that the possessive ki-  and the 'return' ki- have a
common source?

Jan


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu
[mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On Behalf Of ROOD DAVID S
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 5:10 PM
To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
Subject: RE: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to'



Jan, that's how I interpreted Bob's suggestion that the -ki- 'revert;
become' is historically related to the -ki- of the vertatives, and
distinct from any of the others.  I think we're saying that the morpheme

in the vertatives is NOT the possessive.  But Bob will have to supply
the
cross-linguistic data for that.

David S. Rood
Dept. of Linguistics
Univ. of Colorado
295 UCB
Boulder, CO 80309-0295
USA
rood at colorado.edu

On Thu, 13 Dec 2007, Jan Ullrich wrote:

>
>> I'm going to side with Bob on this one.  It seems to me that the
>> basic
>
>> meaning of the vertatives is not 'toward home' but 'back (again)'.
> Over
>> and over in the texts we read "i na gli na...." -- 'went there and
> came
>> back and...' without the concept of 'home' anywhere around.
>
> I fully agree that the vertitives mean "back" rather than "home". I
> didn't think that was in contradiction to the possessive analysis that

> I sided with, but perhaps it is. Or are you suggesting that the ki-
> that potentially formed the vertitives is the same ki- 'return back to

> the original state"? I might be missing some e-mails from this thread
> as it seems my spam filter has been acting up lately.
>
>> Allan had an explanation for khi but I've forgotten it -- and I can't
> put
>> my hands on the paper right now, either.  Bob?
>
> Would be good to know.
>
> Jan
>



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