Siouan positional verbs

[Dan Folkus]

Oh. But one more thing... Wittgenstein held that meaning is all tied up in
what people actually DO with the words. So, for example, if the terms made a
difference in how the speaker went about, say, searching for the river, or
the lake, then the meaning is different. Otherwise, he wouldn't say it
mattered much, I'm guessing. But now I truly shall try really hard to be
quiet now...
On 12/13/09, Dan Folkus <dan.folkus at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Sorry to bother you, David. Your various trajectories for specific
> ethnographic research should remain unbounded by my more generalized take.
> I'm a Wittgensteinian guy really, meaning *ordinary language* philosophy.
> Ludwig used English and German. The sad thing is if the terms 'sit' and
> 'lie', as I interpret them, don't make ANY sense to you. I must be out of my
> depth. I'll just listen then...
>
> On 12/12/09, David Kaufman <dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>  Sorry, Dan, but I'm afraid I don't follow what you're saying.  Can you
>> elaborate?
>>
>> As a follow-up to my first email, I wanted to pass along a message I
>> received from a fellow anthro grad student whose grandfather lived in SE
>> Kansas for 95 years, though he was born in Italy:
>>
>> "My Italian grandfather would say a field lies and a boundary-less piece
>> of land sits, and the ocean sits and the rivers lie."
>>
>> While this may seem like an unlikely source of support for this argument,
>> we suspect that his grandfather talked to indigenous peoples perhaps from
>> the Oklahoma nations, which, particularly if these were Siouan and/or
>> Muskogean, would make sense.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>> --- On *Sat, 12/12/09, Dan Folkus <dan.folkus at gmail.com>* wrote:
>>
>>
>> From: Dan Folkus <dan.folkus at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: Siouan positional verbs
>> To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
>> Date: Saturday, December 12, 2009, 2:43 PM
>>
>>
>> This boundedness flucuates in the case of the river, so the river lies
>> across a land that sits there. The riverbed is temporary, I think. But a
>> river lying on a bed that sits, well that seems normal, even if the river
>> recedes.
>>
>> On 12/11/09, David Kaufman <dvklinguist2003 at yahoo.com<http://mc/compose?to=dvklinguist2003@yahoo.com>>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>  Hello everyone:
>>>
>>> I'm writing my third Field Statement (Anthro precursors to a
>>> dissertation) on positional verbs in Biloxi and Siouan, and I'd thought I'd
>>> see if any of you had comments on a couple of things. (I realize Siouan
>>> languages vary considerably in how they use positional verb classifiers.)
>>> (BTW--yes, I'll be doing my diss on Biloxi - I've switched my focus from
>>> Algonquian back to Siouan.)
>>>
>>> In Biloxi, positional verb classifiers are used, apparently as in other
>>> Siouan languages, to denote shape or position along vertical 'stand',
>>> horizontal 'lie-recline', or neutral 'sit' axes.  Some of these are obvious
>>> while others are not.  What I'm really curious about is their use in natural
>>> landscape objects, such as lake, river, land, field, etc.  I find it
>>> interesting that, in Omaha-Ponca, land (in general) 'sits'
>>> (neutral/unmarked) (maNzhaN dhaN) while a field 'lies/reclines' (u'e
>>> dhe-khe).  Streams, rivers, bayous seem to 'lie/recline' (both Biloxi & OP),
>>> although a lake 'sits' in BI but 'lies' in OP.  In BI a forest also 'sits'.
>>> I'm wondering then if the difference between this 'sit' and 'lie' might be
>>> one of boundedness - unbounded/non-delimited/invisible boundaries 'sit'
>>> (land [general]/forest/lake?) vs. visible boundaries/delimited 'lie/recline'
>>> (river/field/lake?).  While it seems intuitive to think of a river as
>>> flat/horizontal (which it is!), we can also see it as being bounded (you can
>>> usually see both banks of a river) and a field is usually partitioned off or
>>> small enough to see its limits.  (Koasati Muskogean also has towns, fields,
>>> rivers, as 'lying/reclining' - bounded?).  As for the lake 'sitting' in BI
>>> vs. 'lying' in OP, this may well be something that is language- or
>>> culture-specific depending on the size of particular lakes in a
>>> cultural/linguistic area.  Perhaps the Biloxis saw a large lake (the Gulf?)
>>> of which they could not see its edges or boundaries, while Omahas saw a
>>> smaller lake with well-defined boundaries.
>>>
>>> The other curiosity is the use of positional verbs with body parts.  In
>>> BI, an aching body part 'stands' (e.g., my head stands = I have a
>>> headache).  A hand in OP always seems to 'stand' regardless of its actual
>>> position at any given time, but I don't know about other body parts and in
>>> what context these are used.
>>>
>>> I hope this makes sense!  Any thoughts, examples, counter-examples
>>> anyone?
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
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