JOD's terrible 'teens'

[Rankin, Robert L]

Those look convincing to me.  Good work!

Bob


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU on behalf of Cameron J. Pratt
Sent: Sun 2/7/2010 8:30 PM
To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
Subject: Re: JOD's terrible 'teens'
 
After digging a little deeper I have two sources for the follow word, one is 
LaFlesche's kithaha = at both ends + pahi = pointed sharp = 'kithaha pahi' 
= centipede

Another from Laflesche dictionary  kithaha, apart; separate; moving in 
opposite directions; separation

kithaha kaxe, to separate a part of a group of things from the others pg. 87

kithaha paxe,  I separated a number of things. pg. 87

These examples are all I have at this time.

Best,
Cameron Pratt


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Rankin, Robert L" <rankin at ku.edu>
To: <siouan at lists.Cololrado.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 2:02 PM
Subject: RE: JOD's terrible 'teens'


Yes, I agree that is the conventional analysis in Osage.  My problem with it 
is that none of the people I asked about it could come up with any 
additional examples of its usage in other contexts.  So I have to ask myself 
whether it's just a folk etymology, produced because speakers could analyze 
only the /toopa/ 'four' part.  Every language has plenty of such cases. 
Maybe Dorsey's or LaFlesche's Osage notes have additional instances, but 
Carolyn Quintero only got 'eight' as an example of hkidhe-/hkidha- with this 
meaning.

The common Dhegiha term for 'eight' would come out /hpeedhaabriN/ in Osage, 
where dhaabriN is 'three'.  Kaw and Osage both had the older term in older 
contexts, but both also used the hkidha-toopa form also in modern speech. 
The Kaw form is kki(y)adooba.  Walter Kekahbah used kkialooba, with an L, 
which should go back to a word like kkiaglooba at an earlier time, since L 
comes from earlier gl in Kaw.  There's a Wichita language word for 'eight' 
that is very similar.  I don't have any source to look it up at the moment. 
Perhaps David can cite it for us.

Best,

Bob


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU on behalf of Cameron J. Pratt
Sent: Sun 2/7/2010 12:43 PM
To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
Subject: Re: JOD's terrible 'teens'

Osage kithaha = on each side      ki(th)adopa four on each side   kiadopa= 8

lebra tse wiN (th)iNge 1 less than 10

Cameron Pratt

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Rankin, Robert L" <rankin at ku.edu>
To: <siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU>
Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 8:20 PM
Subject: RE: JOD's terrible 'teens'


Your /kki edi/ is reminiscent of the Kansa and Osage '8' terms:  OS
kki(dh)atopa, KS kiadoba.  This is often analysed as 'again 4' or 'the other
4'.  The morphology of kkia- doesn't quite track though, and I have
speculated that the word is actually a borrowing from Wichita.  So I'm
interested in the meaning and usage of OM kki edi apart from numerals.

Bob


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU on behalf of Mark J Awakuni-Swetland
Sent: Thu 2/4/2010 7:57 AM
To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
Subject: RE: JOD's terrible 'teens'

Yesterday in a conversation with one of my UNL speakers, Grandma Delores
Black recalled hearing her eldest grandmother counting to ten in the
conventional way, then using the kki edi followed by a second number for
the teens.

gtheboN kki edi shoNkka => 10 kki edi 9

with the kki edi variously glossed as 'also', 'and' or something similar.

Grandma Delores recalled her mother using the current agthiNshoNkka form.

I did not specifically ask about 12, since it has a non-agthiN pattern
today

shappe noNba
six two

I will try to elicit this set again from the other speakers with an eye
towards what Grandma Delores described.


Uthixide





"Rankin, Robert L" <rankin at ku.edu>
Sent by: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
02/02/10 08:57 PM
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RE: JOD's terrible 'teens'






Sounds to me as if they didn't use '19' very often.  After all, we don't
either except in dates from the 1900s.  They don't use glebaN agi shaNkka
or something similar?

I did a Siouan Conference paper back in the 80s (or maybe it was the 70s)
on Siouan counting and tried to show that the words correlated with the
signs for the numbers in the Plains Sign Language.  This was a partial
quinary system of finger counting beginning with the little finger of the
left hand and ending with the little finger of the right.  This explained
why Dakotan for '9' is 'one in the palm'.  I don't know how the finger
counting system would work above 10 however.  It would be interesting to
find out.  I don't recall ever seeing the PSL signs for numerals in the
teens.

The 'nine' word itself is a bit of a mystery.  It's found in both Siouan
and Algonquian as 'shankka' or the like.  Ives Goddard thinks it's Siouan
originally but I've speculated that it's Algonquian originally.  Nobody
wants to claim the little bastard.

Bob


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU on behalf of Mark J Awakuni-Swetland
Sent: Tue 2/2/2010 10:45 AM
To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
Subject: JOD's terrible 'teens'

Aloha All,

I am working through Dorsey's numbers in the teens.

He has several definitions for the base number that are not always all
used on a number. For example:

nineteen

the other nine

the extra nine

again nine

I was wondering what y'all might make of this.

Mark


Mark Awakuni-Swetland, Ph.D.
Assistant Professor of Anthropology
and Ethnic Studies (Native American Studies)
University of Nebraska
Lincoln, NE 68588-0368

http://omahalanguage.unl.edu
http://omahaponca.unl.edu
Phone 402-472-3455
FAX: 402-472-9642