cross-linguistic metaphors (fwd)

[Bryan James Gordon]

I believe Jimm meant to say the same thing as David - that IOM shgaⁿ is not
the same as hga/thga/shga "white". The confusion is probably my fault,
because one of the things I wondered about in writing was whether the -ska
"metaphors" in Umoⁿhoⁿ might be a reduced form of shkoⁿ instead of actual
colour words. I think our consensus is still in favour of analysing it as a
colour word, not related to shkoⁿ. And even if it's not the same as the
colour word that still doesn't mean it's related to shkoⁿ. That is only a
very remote possibility in a very uncertain puzzle.

2011/2/23 ROOD DAVID S <David.Rood at colorado.edu>

>
>
> Jimm, let's be very cautious about linguistic details here.  At least in
> Lakota, and I assume for the other languages as well, ska 'white' is a very
> different word from s^kaN.  The former is used in e.g. the name for the
> Rocky Mountains, literally 'white mountains'.  Jill's suggestion of
> 'reflective' might work here.
>
> The latter is used for a great many spiritual concepts.  It's usually
> glossed "moving", but it refers to the movement of spirits or mysterious
> beings, or the rustling of weeds and bushes in the wind (especially if it's
> dark), and is loaded with religious connotations.  It is not at all the same
> as 'white'.  S^kaN can have mundane uses, too.  A clock is "mazas^kaNs^kaN"
> 'moving metal', with reference to the pendulum of a 19th century clock.
>  Your glosses of 'diligent, active' etc. belong with this word, not the
> 'white' word.
>
>
> David
>
> David S. Rood
> Dept. of Linguistics
> Univ. of Colorado
> 295 UCB
> Boulder, CO 80309-0295
> USA
> rood at colorado.edu
>
> On Wed, 23 Feb 2011, Jimm G. GoodTracks wrote:
>
>  It seems to me, that there are several tangents in motion here after the
>> original question was prompted.  As to that original question, it seems to
>> be one of a cultural context based on English (Anglo-American Language/ word
>> use) and then trying to fit that onto other language and cultures.
>>
>> Meanwhile, it is good that the discussion was redirected to Siouan
>> applications.  Both Jill and Bryon have clerified the direction and
>> discussion.  Sometimes, we get our English mindset in motion to force or
>> squeeze out applications of Siouan words/ terms that are applied in ways
>> unfamiliar to the English speaker.  The IOM term  šgán is diferent than the
>> term "thka ~ hga" (white color) and "thkan" (opaque, clear, transparent).
>> The šgán  of IOM refers to a particular energy that may be manifested
>> physically or in non-material/ organic format.  Perhaps one could even say
>> in a spiritual format.   In Lakota, I have seen a discussion at length of
>> the term, but I am on the road and have to way to explore my resources nor
>> check my new consortium Lakota Dictionary.  Someone else can do that, as
>> well as get someone well versed in Lakota terms.
>>
>> For IOM, taken from my revised dictionary files, I have the following
>> concrete offering:
>>
>> šgán; skán n/v.i.  (to be) diligent, active.  [L/D.šgan].  **SEE: active.
>>  šgánwexa adj/v.i.  hard; diligent, diligently; active, actively.  šgánwéxa
>> wa^ún v.i.  work hard.  Šgánwéxa ke, Uxré wa^ún rušdán gúnana, He worked
>> hard to get done early.  wósgan n. tradition; custom; habit; talent (FM).
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Bryan James Gordon
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2011 12:34 AM
>> To: siouan at lists.Colorado.EDU
>> Subject: Re: cross-linguistic metaphors (fwd)
>>
>>
>> Wow this is an engaging thread! I miss when we had more of these.
>>
>>
>> Hi Jill, how are you? I think, unfortunately, a native speaker could only
>> help us to reject, not to confirm, the hypothesis, because of course you're
>> right, if she or he did confirm that it's the colour term ska being used, we
>> would not be able to rule out English influence. Universal metaphors have
>> attracted some research lately in cognitive science, where they go under
>> names like spreading activation and stereotypic processing. For a while this
>> very question of whiteness/clearness-as-good/skillful/safe, darkness-as-bad,
>> was getting referenced in cog-sci colloquia every other week. Ugh. There are
>> some metaphors that have indeed proved robust cross-culturally in labs
>> (inasmuch as labs can be cross-cultural!) - things that are generic like
>> horoscopes - things like high-pitch-as-piercing/whining/uppity. I'm guessing
>> most universal metaphors are this trivial or more so. The only truly
>> inescapable metaphor is the linguistic expression as a metaphor for its
>> referent.
>>
>>
>> One thing that makes me skeptical of the clarity-metaphor's necessity is
>> that many languages, including Umoⁿhoⁿ and Baxoje, have a word for "clear"
>> that is not ska, but rather the other common Siouan word for white, sóⁿ [są]
>> (U) / tháⁿ [θą] (B).
>>
>>
>> But the arguments Bob, Rory and others have made in favour of the metaphor
>> are also quite compelling.
>>
>>
>> It's hard to decide.
>>
>>
>> 2011/2/22 Rory M Larson <rlarson at unlnotes.unl.edu>
>>
>>  I'm open to the possibility that some ska's might be a different word,
>> perhaps related to shkoN.  To make that connection, we'd have to both lose
>> the nasalization and do a Siouan sound-symbolic fricative ablaut shift.
>> How distinctive is nasality on unstressed final low vowels anyway? Think
>> about gthéboⁿ "ten", which only a few people pronounce that way anymore: it
>> has become gthéba for many others. The sound-symbolic fricative ablaut is a
>> nifty proposal. A connection to -shka would be interesting. I'd given it
>> some thought, but nothing obvious really sticks out. Of course in Baxoje
>> forms like shga~sga~thga~xga~hga often vary sociolinguistically or
>> stylistically (i.e. some of them are "old" forms, others are "Jiwere" forms,
>> etc.), so maybe this has something to do with how Baxoje uses non-cognates
>> to express the same meaning.
>>
>>
>> In the dictionary Jimm gives Lakȟota bléza "sane", Dakhota mdéza "clear",
>> Hocąk péres "clear, sane, intelligent" as cognates of brédhe. I suspect a
>> connection also with grédhe "many-coloured". Interestingly, rédhe is
>> "tongue". Umoⁿhoⁿ gthéze is "spotted/rippled", maybe they don't say bthéze
>> because they say wazhíⁿska instead, maybe one of the speakers has heard a
>> word like bthéze before?
>>
>>


-- 
***********************************************************
Bryan James Gordon, MA
Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology
University of Arizona
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