Looking for help with "Sanganasch"

[Bryan James Gordon]

Rory's 1812 idea is a good one. I had been thinking of the Potawatomi Trail
of Death as a possible way for the word to make its way to the Central
Plains, but that didn't happen until after Maximilian's visit.



2013/8/20 Campbell, Sky <sky at omtribe.org>

> Oh, and I forgot to answer another question.  Near as I can tell, both
> “Sanganasch” and “ra-kra-she” are Otoe (or Otoe-Missouria).****
>
> ** **
>
> *Sky Campbell, B. A.*
>
> Language Director****
>
> Otoe-Missouria Tribe****
>
> 580-723-4466 ext. 111****
>
> sky at omtribe.org****
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of
> *Rory Larson
>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 20, 2013 3:49 PM
> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> *Subject:* Re: Looking for help with "Sanganasch"****
>
> ** **
>
> Hi Sky,****
>
> ** **
>
> I’ll second (or third) what Bryan and Bob said, and add a couple more
> Algonquian variants I found a few years ago for a class paper I did:****
>
> ** **
>
>                 French:                 les anglois
> l e   s     a n g    l   oi  s****
>
> ** **
>
>                 Micmac:               aĝalasiew
>                a    ĝ a  l   a   s      iew****
>
>                                                 aglasiew
>                a    g     l   a   s      iew****
>
> ** **
>
>                 Cree:                     aakayaasimowin
>               aa   k a y  aa s      imowin****
>
> ** **
>
>                 Ojibwe:                zhaaganaash(i)
>         zh  aa   g a n aa sh  (i)****
>
> ** **
>
> `               Otoe:                    sanganasch
>          s     a n g a n a   sch****
>
>                                                 ra-kra-she
>          r     a     k     r  a   sh   e****
>
> ** **
>
> If languages didn’t have an /l/, they might use a /y/, an /r/ or an /n/ as
> a substitute.  Also, probably none of them had the complex diphthongs that
> a lot of European languages have, or the consonant clusters, so imitating a
> sound like /glwaz/ might have taken some jiggering.****
>
> ** **
>
> I’m not quite clear from your description what language these “Otoe”
> versions are from.  Are the Maximilian and Dorsey versions both Otoe?  Or
> is one of them Ioway or Missouria?  If they are both supposed to be from
> the same language, it’s notable that the Maximilian sanganasch term is so
> similar to the Ojibwe form and the Dorsey rakrashe term so disparate.
> Perhaps the rakrashe term is the older, Siouan, rendition, and the
> sanganasch term is a later borrowing from Ojibwe?  If so, I would guess
> that the borrowing might have dated to about the time of the War of 1812,
> when tribes from the Great Lakes to the Missouri were forming broad
> alliances crosscutting traditional language groups, with or against the
> British.****
>
> ** **
>
> Welcome to the list!****
>
> ** **
>
> Rory****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>]
> *On Behalf Of *Campbell, Sky
> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 20, 2013 1:04 PM
> *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU
> *Subject:* Looking for help with "Sanganasch"****
>
> ** **
>
> This is my first email to this list so I’ll introduce myself.****
>
> ** **
>
> My name is Sky Campbell and I am the Language Director for the
> Otoe-Missouria tribe.  I’ve been here just over four years now and we’ve
> come a long way in our understanding of the language, gathering historical
> information, and recording tribal members.****
>
> ** **
>
> I am currently wrestling with the term “Sanganasch” which is from
> Maximilian’s word list (via Thwaites).  Maximilian translates it as
> “Englishman.”  Page 109 of the *Handbook of North American Indians, Vol.
> 13*, says it is “ultimately from older French *(le)s anglois* ‘the
> English’.”  I’ve attached this page to this email but I don’t know how this
> list will treat attachments.  This page also lists variations from other
> tribes such as “sagdášį” and “sagdášį” (Santee-Sisseton), “šagláša”
> (Teton), “Ságanasch” (Omaha), etc.****
>
> ** **
>
> Based on Maximilian’s spelling for sound, it could roughly be said as
> “sahng-gah-nash.”****
>
> ** **
>
> No matter how I try, I can’t see any real similarities between “(le)s
> anglois” and “Sanganasch” in my mind.  I can (just!) see “(le)*s ang*lois”
> in “*Sang*anasch” (underlined parts).****
>
> ** **
>
> So I spoke with a friend of mine who lives in France.  He was originally
> from here but has lived there over 20 years now.  He also couldn’t see how
> “(le)s anglois” could be shoehorned into “Sanganasch.”  Since he is fluent
> in French I asked for his take and he did mention what he thought it might
> be and that was “sale ganache” which he said is a sort of slang for dirty
> face, ugly face, detestable, untrustworthy, and several more unflattering
> terms.  He said the “ganache” was (aside from the dessert!) something along
> the lines of a lower jaw of a 4-legged animal.  But he noted the lack of an
> “L” in the term and I told him from an Otoe-Missouria perspective, there
> isn’t an “L” (as in Larry) sound really but the rolling “r” sort of covers
> that area and that it might be possible that it was just skipped or
> contracted over time.  He also mentioned “sang” (blood) as well.****
>
> ** **
>
> I have no idea how accurate this term could be.  But if it is, it would be
> very funny to have the French somewhat badmouthing their English (and maybe
> Spanish) competitors by giving the tribes a less than favorable translation
> for them.  But for this to be true, this “slang” would have to have been in
> use almost 200 years ago and I have no idea if it was.  Plus it looks like
> its use would have had to have been pretty wide-spread since other tribes
> had a similar term.****
>
> ** **
>
> So that is what I am looking at.  Any feedback, any avenues to check out,
> any sources, etc. would be greatly appreciated.  If this is some form of
> “(le)s anglois”, I’d just like to know how.  Or if anyone can tell me if I
> am getting close.****
>
> ** **
>
> Also, if it helps, James Owen Dorsey had the term “ra-kra-she” for
> “Englishman.”****
>
> ** **
>
> *Sky Campbell, B. A.*
>
> Language Director****
>
> Otoe-Missouria Tribe****
>
> 580-723-4466 ext. 111****
>
> sky at omtribe.org****
>
> ** **
>
>
>   ­­  ****
>
>   ­­
>



-- 
***********************************************************
Bryan James Gordon, MA
Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology
University of Arizona
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