Number 'nine' in Chiwere

[Sky Campbell]

I’m going to cover a few points here.  Please bear with me since I’m not at the office at the moment so I am going from memory.

 

1) First off, Jill apologized for not being able to use eng here.  If it is the standard practice to use a linguistic alphabet in this list, then I’ll work on doing so.  I’d asked Jill for some advice while we were in D.C. on which alphabet to use and she recommended the APA.  I’ve been meaning to start recording Otoe-Missouria language information in that system so I might as well start getting used to it.  I’ll be honest and admit that I really don’t know where to begin beyond reading what Wikipedia has to say about it.  As I understand it, there is some wiggle-room to assign phonemes to characters so long as you maintain a “key”.  I don’t know that I’d want to tweak an established system though.  Besides, I am still getting used to the terminology used in this list like palatalization, philatelist, and monosodium glutamate.  Any advice in this area would be greatly appreciated J.

 

2) The idea of “naŋe” (<--- my first attempt at the APA!) is a fascinating one to indicate “sit” with respect to how the one finger is kept down to indicate nine.  I’ll keep an eye out for anything along these lines.  The mention of “nanye” possibly being a dialectal variant of “naŋe” would definitely fit here.  I used to think that –ñe (I hope that’s appropriate use of the APA) was Ioway and –ŋe was Otoe-Missouria (as illustrated in the 1977 Otoe-Iowa Language Book I that was mentioned) and what little crossover I saw Ichalked up to the two tribes being in contact with one another.  But the longer I’ve worked here, the more I’ve begun to challenge that assumption.  More and more tribal members are coming forward with terms like “suñe” (horse) rather than “suŋe”, “wañe” (man) rather than “waŋe”, or the slightly different “xañe” (big) rather than “xanje” (I used to think that last comparison was the be-all-end-all telltale sign of what was Ioway and what was Otoe-Missouria.).  These same tribal members are adamant about not having any Ioway ancestry and/or little to no contact with them (would be hard to verify that claim, I would imagine).  But still, it is enough to get my attention.

 

Then I came across information in An Account of an Expedition from Pittsburg to the Rocky Mountains (James) that mentioned Otoe and Ioway languages being more similar to each other and with Missouria being the oddball (page 65).  Missouria is described as being more nasal.  With that thought in mind, I’ve often idly wondered if –ñe was perhaps Otoe and Ioway and –ŋe (which seems more “nasal” to me) was maybe Missouria and that perhaps since possibly the largest contributor of modern Otoe-Missouria language information (Truman Dailey) claimed Missouria, perhaps this might be why we see –ŋe so much in modern Otoe-Missouria material.  This is just idle speculation on my part.  Especially since this same source also mentions that by this date, Missouria children were starting to use the Otoe dialect.  Not to mention there are plenty of representations of “ŋ” in older documentation.  But it does explain the largely absent (but not totally, obviously) “ŋ” from Ioway.  Still, this is the first documentation I’ve come across that actually describes a specific difference between Otoe and Missouria.  The other sources I’ve read simply say they are the same language but slightly different.  It also mentions the terms for “friend” being In-ta-ro and In-ta-ra coming from Otoe and Ioway respectively.  I don’t remember everything from the page.  I’ll get the information from work tomorrow and email a copy of that page for those who are interested.

 

3) Going to respond to the appropriate email for a bit of info on bl/br/gl/gr J.

 

Sky

 

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill
Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2013 4:51 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Number 'nine' in Chiwere.

 

It does work for ‘sit’ -  that’s nearly a formulaic closing for prayers (and even public speaking):  se ihanaNGe khe/khi…  ‘I’m sitting here (talking)- in your direction/toward you.  I apologize that my email is also limited – I’m using NG for my eng here.  

 

Lots of folks did have a knowledge of Plains Sign Language,  so it’s a good theory, Bob.  

 

  But I have to say I really love the 9/expecting something connection that Pam made -  it’s a REAL stretch,  but linking up ‘sitting’ in this particular etymology  with the last month of pregnancy / or even childbirth would be extremely interesting.  Any thoughts??

 

Jill

 

 

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson
Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2013 3:49 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Number 'nine' in Chiwere.

 

Nice idea!  If that works, I like it!  :)

 

Rory

 

 

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rankin, Robert L.
Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2013 3:34 PM
To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU
Subject: Re: Number 'nine' in Chiwere.

 

Hmm, speculatively, you don't suppose that the "other" phonetic form of nanye, namely nąŋe, could be related to 'sit' in Ioway in the same sense that yųka and wąka are ‘to lie’ in Lakota?  The positional would describe the last bent finger in finger counting from 1 to 10.

Ok, I'll shut up now.

Bob

  _____  

From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Rory Larson [rlarson1 at UNL.EDU]
Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2013 3:22 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Number 'nine' in Chiwere.

Ø  I think perhaps the Dakotan term relates to counting in sign language where 'nine' leaves one finger bent over, i.e., "lying", in the palm of the hand.  napcóka is 'palm' and yųka and wąka are ‘to lie’ in Lakota and the so-called D-dialects respectively, so I don't think Sky's term is related to the napci- part of the Dakotan term, although I'm afraid I don't have anything better to offer except the obvious fact that it looks like English 'nine', [nayn] with a metathesis of the y and n.  

 

You’re probably right; that was a long shot.  I understand from the old Otoe-Iowa Indian Language Book I that was put out in 1977 that there is a regular difference in certain endings between Otoe and Iowa.  Where one ends in -nge the other ends in -nye.  I’ve never been quite sure about how the first was pronounced, whether that is supposed to be an eng or a nasal vowel + /g/.  nanye ought to belong to the -nye dialect, but checking the booklet that turns out to be Iowa, so I’m somewhat confused here.  It sometimes seems to equate to Omaha nasal vowel + /g/, but I wasn’t sure if it was the only thing that ending could relate to.

 

It’s still an interesting find, even if it does turn out to be English ‘nine’.  In this case, it would be a true borrowing, because it is thoroughly incorporated into an Otoe numerical sequence.  Also, that metathesis of y and n shows that the word was forced into an Otoe phonological structure, rather than leaving it in plain English.  Perhaps both the cumbersome, analytic terms used for ‘nine’ in so many North American languages, and the tendency to borrow the term, say something about how irregular the usage of it was?

 

Rory

 



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