Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives

[Bryan James Gordon]

Digging through 19th century Omaha and Ponca texts I've found evidence for
a role for subcategorization, that is, some final verbs in some contexts
tend to follow conjugated verbs, while
others tend to follow "infinitives". Our resident syntacticians may have
more precise observations. Catherine?
On Feb 21, 2014 1:04 PM, "David Kaufman" <dvkanth2010 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Rory,
>
> So it seems like both forms conjugated may have been the original method
> (pre-20th century), but, perhaps due to the increasing influence of
> English, it can now be just final verb?  Interesting how these things come
> about.
>
> Dave
>
> David Kaufman
> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas
> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 1:28 PM, Rory Larson <rlarson1 at unl.edu> wrote:
>
>>  Dave,
>>
>>
>>
>> What you describe for Kaw seems to be what my experience with Omaha has
>> been.  As I recall, elicited statements usually have the first verb in
>> neutral form, but if you ask the speakers which way is better, giving both
>> options, they generally prefer the one with both verbs conjugated.  I think
>> the latter is the way it normally appears in Dorsey (19th century).
>>
>>
>>
>> Of course, the real power of the old (?) system is that the first verb
>> can conjugate for different subjects and objects than the second one, as in
>> “I want you to give me the toy” = Toy-the me-you-give I-want.
>>
>>
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Rory
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf
>> Of *David Kaufman
>> *Sent:* Friday, February 21, 2014 12:54 PM
>>
>> *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU
>> *Subject:* Re: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks Rory and Justin for the feedback.
>>
>>
>>
>> On another note, I've also been wondering about how serial verbs are
>> handled in Siouan in general.  In the Kaw data, when two verbs come
>> together, the second verb always conjugates for person while the first
>> looks like it can either conjugate to match the second verb or it can stay
>> in the third person (neutral) form.  I seem to recall that in Biloxi,
>> serial verbs *always* match, first and second verbs having the same person
>> conjugation.  What do other Siouan languages do in regards to this?  Are
>> there any hard and fast rules about this?
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks again!
>>
>>
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>>   David Kaufman
>>
>> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas
>>
>> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 5:15 PM, Rory Larson <rlarson1 at unl.edu> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks for the analysis, Justin.  That makes much better sense than what
>> I had suggested.  Very interesting that the Kaw (a)be particle, which
>> should be either cognate or closely related to the Omaha (a)bi particle,
>> can ablaut.  I wasn’t aware of that; it’s good to know.
>>
>>
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Rory
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf
>> Of *Mcbride, Justin
>> *Sent:* Thursday, February 20, 2014 3:00 PM
>> *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU
>> *Subject:* Re: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives
>>
>>
>>
>> For what it's worth, I believe that what appears to be a second token of
>> aba in the example, aba-daN is actually a different type altogether. In
>> this case, I think it's a case of the verb e(e), 'to say', plus the -(a)be
>> completive aspect marker plus the conjunction -(a)daN, 'and'
>> [e(e)-(a)be-(a)daN > aba-daN]. If so, then, that one really is just 's/he
>> said and,' and the first one is actually the subject marker. But that's not
>> to say that there aren't other examples of the quotative use of subject
>> markers in Ks, even within the same text. Here's an example of quotative
>> akHa:
>>
>>
>>
>> iccikkitaNga akha oo aNs^i waali miNkHe akHa.
>>
>> The Old Man said, "Oh, I'm getting fat."
>>
>>
>>
>> This case is much clearer to my way of thinking because there are two
>> verbal auxiliaries marking the same state (in this case, at rest)
>> back-to-back, one of which refers to 1st person (miNkHe, part of the
>> quotation), and one 3rd person (akHa, marks quotation). It's curious to
>> note that in the audio for this, the speaker laughs after miNkHe and then
>> almost catches her breath before saying akHa, which would indicate to me
>> that she felt it was essential for concluding the sentence. It's
>> interesting to me in that it seems that the entire quoted clause is acting
>> almost like a verb following the canonical pattern (subject) SUBJ (verb)
>> AUX, where SUBJ and AUX match shape in the continuative aspect, as in
>> s^idoz^iNga akHa ghaage akHa, 'the boy is crying.'
>>
>>
>>
>> -jtm
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 1:50 PM, Rory Larson <rlarson1 at unl.edu> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Dave,
>>
>>
>>
>> In Omaha and Ponca, the corresponding article is amá, where you have
>> abá.  As with Kaw, it tends to imply ‘moving/absent’.  But we also have
>> another particle, apparently pronounced the same way, coming at the end of
>> the sentence, that implies that the foregoing is hearsay rather than solid
>> fact.  It can stand by itself, or it can be coupled with the ‘allegedly’
>> particle bi to make the common ending for 3rd person hearsay action,
>> biama.
>>
>>
>>
>> I notice the accent changes to the first syllable in the second case of
>> your example.  I wonder if that could be underlyingly a-aba in that case?
>> The first would be the ablauted version of ‘he said it’, followed by either
>> the Old Man’s article abá or a ‘hearsay’ particle as in OP.  One problem
>> with that would be that the ‘hearsay’ amá in OP shouldn’t cause a preceding
>> verb to ablaut.
>>
>>
>>
>> My $0.02.
>>
>>
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Rory
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf
>> Of *David Kaufman
>> *Sent:* Thursday, February 20, 2014 1:30 PM
>> *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU
>> *Subject:* Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>>
>>
>> I have a question re: a curious structure in Kaw, and whether anything
>> like it occurs in other Dhegihan or even non-Dhegihan Siouan languages.
>>  The structure involves the articles akhá and abá, used for subjects in Kaw
>> and usually translated 'the', the first being roughly for
>> 'standing/sitting' and the other for 'moving/absent'.  However, in Kaw,
>> these subject articles also somehow seem to have become used as quotatives,
>> or 's/he said.'  Here is an example sentence with gloss:
>>
>>
>>
>> *Icíkitanga  abá, “Anyáxtaga-édan,” ába-dan,  nanstábe.*
>>
>> Old.Man   said   bite.me-then          said-then   kicked.him
>>
>> The Old Man said, “Then bite me,” and he kicked him.
>>
>>
>>
>> So abá, which is normally used for 'moving' subjects and is usually
>> translated 'the', is now being used for 's/he said.'
>>
>>
>>
>> Any thoughts on this, esp. from other Dhegihan perspectives, or other
>> Siouan languages that might have some similar usage?
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>   David Kaufman
>>
>> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas
>>
>> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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