Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives

Sat Feb 22 19:15:59 UTC 2014

(Forgot the citation: Zhábe-ska to Wahé'áⁿ August 1878, JD 1890:476.4)


2014-02-22 12:15 GMT-07:00 Bryan James Gordon <linguist at email.arizona.edu>:

> I made a list somewhere of different verbs with different verb
> subcategorization behaviors to look into later, and I can't remember where
> it is, but here's an interesting example:
>
> Uxthéxchi gthí 'íthathe wíkaⁿbtha. "You promised to come back real soon
> and I want you to."
>
> *Gthí *"come back" is not conjugated. *'Íthathe *"you promised" has agent
> conjugation. *Wíkaⁿbtha *has agent and dative conjugation, and the dative
> "to you" is raised from the subject of "promised". Not only does this
> example show both a conjugated and an unconjugated subordinate verb, but it
> also raises questions about the semantics of these constructions. It would
> seem that we cannot simply assume the syntactic complement of *gáⁿtha *"desire"
> is also its semantic complement, because the semantic complement here is
> clearly "come back" and not "you promised".
>
> BJG
>
>
> 2014-02-22 11:30 GMT-07:00 David Kaufman <dvkanth2010 at gmail.com>:
>
> That is interesting, Bryan!
>>
>> Dave
>>
>> David Kaufman
>> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas
>> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 3:22 PM, Bryan James Gordon <linguista at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Digging through 19th century Omaha and Ponca texts I've found evidence
>>> for a role for subcategorization, that is, some final verbs in some
>>> contexts tend to follow conjugated verbs, while
>>> others tend to follow "infinitives". Our resident syntacticians may have
>>> more precise observations. Catherine?
>>> On Feb 21, 2014 1:04 PM, "David Kaufman" <dvkanth2010 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Rory,
>>>>
>>>> So it seems like both forms conjugated may have been the original
>>>> method (pre-20th century), but, perhaps due to the increasing influence of
>>>> English, it can now be just final verb?  Interesting how these things come
>>>> about.
>>>>
>>>> Dave
>>>>
>>>> David Kaufman
>>>> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas
>>>> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 1:28 PM, Rory Larson <rlarson1 at unl.edu> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>  Dave,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> What you describe for Kaw seems to be what my experience with Omaha
>>>>> has been.  As I recall, elicited statements usually have the first verb in
>>>>> neutral form, but if you ask the speakers which way is better, giving both
>>>>> options, they generally prefer the one with both verbs conjugated.  I think
>>>>> the latter is the way it normally appears in Dorsey (19th century).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course, the real power of the old (?) system is that the first verb
>>>>> can conjugate for different subjects and objects than the second one, as in
>>>>> “I want you to give me the toy” = Toy-the me-you-give I-want.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>>
>>>>> Rory
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On
>>>>> Behalf Of *David Kaufman
>>>>> *Sent:* Friday, February 21, 2014 12:54 PM
>>>>>
>>>>> *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks Rory and Justin for the feedback.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On another note, I've also been wondering about how serial verbs are
>>>>> handled in Siouan in general.  In the Kaw data, when two verbs come
>>>>> together, the second verb always conjugates for person while the first
>>>>> looks like it can either conjugate to match the second verb or it can stay
>>>>> in the third person (neutral) form.  I seem to recall that in Biloxi,
>>>>> serial verbs *always* match, first and second verbs having the same person
>>>>> conjugation.  What do other Siouan languages do in regards to this?  Are
>>>>> there any hard and fast rules about this?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks again!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Dave
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>   David Kaufman
>>>>>
>>>>> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas
>>>>>
>>>>> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 5:15 PM, Rory Larson <rlarson1 at unl.edu> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for the analysis, Justin.  That makes much better sense than
>>>>> what I had suggested.  Very interesting that the Kaw (a)be particle, which
>>>>> should be either cognate or closely related to the Omaha (a)bi particle,
>>>>> can ablaut.  I wasn’t aware of that; it’s good to know.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>>
>>>>> Rory
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On
>>>>> Behalf Of *Mcbride, Justin
>>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, February 20, 2014 3:00 PM
>>>>> *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> For what it's worth, I believe that what appears to be a second token
>>>>> of aba in the example, aba-daN is actually a different type altogether. In
>>>>> this case, I think it's a case of the verb e(e), 'to say', plus the -(a)be
>>>>> completive aspect marker plus the conjunction -(a)daN, 'and'
>>>>> [e(e)-(a)be-(a)daN > aba-daN]. If so, then, that one really is just 's/he
>>>>> said and,' and the first one is actually the subject marker. But that's not
>>>>> to say that there aren't other examples of the quotative use of subject
>>>>> markers in Ks, even within the same text. Here's an example of quotative
>>>>> akHa:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> iccikkitaNga akha oo aNs^i waali miNkHe akHa.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Old Man said, "Oh, I'm getting fat."
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This case is much clearer to my way of thinking because there are two
>>>>> verbal auxiliaries marking the same state (in this case, at rest)
>>>>> back-to-back, one of which refers to 1st person (miNkHe, part of the
>>>>> quotation), and one 3rd person (akHa, marks quotation). It's curious to
>>>>> note that in the audio for this, the speaker laughs after miNkHe and then
>>>>> almost catches her breath before saying akHa, which would indicate to me
>>>>> that she felt it was essential for concluding the sentence. It's
>>>>> interesting to me in that it seems that the entire quoted clause is acting
>>>>> almost like a verb following the canonical pattern (subject) SUBJ (verb)
>>>>> AUX, where SUBJ and AUX match shape in the continuative aspect, as in
>>>>> s^idoz^iNga akHa ghaage akHa, 'the boy is crying.'
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -jtm
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 1:50 PM, Rory Larson <rlarson1 at unl.edu> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Dave,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> In Omaha and Ponca, the corresponding article is amá, where you have
>>>>> abá.  As with Kaw, it tends to imply ‘moving/absent’.  But we also have
>>>>> another particle, apparently pronounced the same way, coming at the end of
>>>>> the sentence, that implies that the foregoing is hearsay rather than solid
>>>>> fact.  It can stand by itself, or it can be coupled with the ‘allegedly’
>>>>> particle bi to make the common ending for 3rd person hearsay action,
>>>>> biama.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I notice the accent changes to the first syllable in the second case
>>>>> of your example.  I wonder if that could be underlyingly a-aba in that
>>>>> case?  The first would be the ablauted version of ‘he said it’, followed by
>>>>> either the Old Man’s article abá or a ‘hearsay’ particle as in OP.  One
>>>>> problem with that would be that the ‘hearsay’ amá in OP shouldn’t cause a
>>>>> preceding verb to ablaut.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> My $0.02.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>>
>>>>> Rory
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On
>>>>> Behalf Of *David Kaufman
>>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, February 20, 2014 1:30 PM
>>>>> *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU
>>>>> *Subject:* Question re: Dhegiha and other Siouan quotatives
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I have a question re: a curious structure in Kaw, and whether anything
>>>>> like it occurs in other Dhegihan or even non-Dhegihan Siouan languages.
>>>>>  The structure involves the articles akhá and abá, used for subjects in Kaw
>>>>> and usually translated 'the', the first being roughly for
>>>>> 'standing/sitting' and the other for 'moving/absent'.  However, in Kaw,
>>>>> these subject articles also somehow seem to have become used as quotatives,
>>>>> or 's/he said.'  Here is an example sentence with gloss:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *Icíkitanga  abá, “Anyáxtaga-édan,” ába-dan,  nanstábe.*
>>>>>
>>>>> Old.Man   said   bite.me-then          said-then   kicked.him
>>>>>
>>>>> The Old Man said, “Then bite me,” and he kicked him.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> So abá, which is normally used for 'moving' subjects and is usually
>>>>> translated 'the', is now being used for 's/he said.'
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Any thoughts on this, esp. from other Dhegihan perspectives, or other
>>>>> Siouan languages that might have some similar usage?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>   David Kaufman
>>>>>
>>>>> Linguistic Anthropology PhD candidate, University of Kansas
>>>>>
>>>>> Director, Kaw Nation Language Program
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>
>
> --
> ***********************************************************
> Bryan James Gordon, MA
> Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology
> University of Arizona
> ***********************************************************
>


-- 
***********************************************************
Bryan James Gordon, MA
Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology
University of Arizona
***********************************************************
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