[Possible SPAM] Re: Aho!

Mon Feb 24 18:22:26 UTC 2014

Great example!!!

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Campbell, Sky
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 12:07 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Aho!

I may have found a clue for “ka.”  Dorsey has the term:

e-wa-na-ha – the speaker; the one speaking

Then he has the term:

e wa-ka-na-ha – the one who is meant; the person addressed

I’m not sure how (or even if) this is related to the “ka” I am asking about but I’m trying to look at it in different ways to see if it fits somehow.

Sky Campbell, B. A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org<mailto:sky at omtribe.org>

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell
Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2014 1:53 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Aho!
Importance: Low

I found a strike against my "-ke/-ge" idea referring to "in like manner."  In Hamilton's An Elementary Book of the Ioway Language, page 34-35, he has the following line:

a-ræ-fkæ-mvn-yæ-we-ræ - do ye likewise (arethke manyiwi re)

In that situation, he has the "ithke" before the verb and not after (which was my idea).

After a quick scan of the rest of the book, I found examples of imperatives both with and without the "ka" in the hymns but I didn't immediately see anything that cleared up my confusion.

And in keeping with the idea that perhaps this might be an older thing, I did a quick run through Merrill's First Ioway Reading Book and in his prayer (Lesson 12, page 13), he has the line:

Nl-ce pe of-kon-kl-ra (Nąnje pi uk'ųka re) - Give me a good heart.

(I wonder with the possible nasal "f" that Merrill put in there if it is supposed to be a contraction of "uhįnk'ų" to become "ųnk'ų" to say "give me".)

So here we have another use of "ka" from a source other than Hamilton.  I haven't gone through his hymns yet though.  But no clues so far as I can tell.  However I am noticing "me" being in a few of these but it may just be a coincidence.

And on the off chance that this "ka" might be something that means plural (maybe an alternate way to end commands to command more than one person besides using -wi), I remembered a very odd term from Maximilian's word list where he had:

guj-n - we alone

To date, I have never seen the prefix "gu-" to mean "we" anywhere else.  And it may not be connected in any way to the "ka/ga" we are talking about but I thought I'd put it out there.

Sky

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell
Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2014 12:26 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: Aho!

Going along with the "now" idea, I'm going to keep an eye out for the full form of "gasun" in these instances along with anything that will give some clues for this.  I've been working a lot with Hamilton's material lately so I'll be sure to go over it thoroughly.

As far as "ich'a re/it'a re", I wonder if these forms have something to do with the d/t changing to ch/j (IE te/che for buffalo and inde/inje for face) with some terms.

Sky

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm Goodtracks
Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2014 8:52 AM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: Aho!

Hánwe Pi:

Jill says:
I can't help but think that it's somehow ga- the locational prefix for something you can see, but not directly next to 1st and 2nd person (gaida 'over there  (but not yonder)', gaigu, etc. -  which could ultimately be related to gasuN also.  It might clarify actual location, or be used metaphorically for 'now/soon' even by itself.

Now applying that to the sentences,

æ-ka-ræ - say it, speak   = á re/  é ga re  (Say it now!)

jwæ-me-ka-ræ - doctor me    = swéhi re/  swémi ga re  (Doctor me now!)

e-cæ-ka-ræ - speak thou, tell   = i^cha re/  i^che ga re  (Speak now!)  ~~  [Jill, in the imperative, is it not ~ it^a re ?????]

wo-ug-ka-ræ - work thou    = wa^ún ne/  wa^ún ga re  (Work it now!)

ru-meg-ka-ræ - buy it    = rúmi re/ rúmi ga re  (Buy it now!)

It does seem to apply in application above.  Now, if that being so,  why o’ why does it not show up in any other texts, except Hamilton?  I suppose it could have been a spoken form of the period (pre- 1850’s) that was used and then dropped by latter generations.

It is noted in the dictionary, these applications that may produce a “ga”:

ga-...  prf.  just; exactly.  **SEE: gašún; gaída.   ga^é  v.i.  say as follows.   Hinkúñi ga^é: “Gá^e koíth^in hinnahá^e,” é ki,  My grandmother said as follows: “He is the one we were talking about.”   ga^é^a  v.t.  say as follows to another.   They said as follows to him…,  Ga^igáñe… ke.   Hintágwa ga^ihé^a: “Áannegradànwe hñe ke,” ihé ke,  I said as follows to my grandson: “You will give me (your own one) your attention,” I told him.   ga^íge; gáigé  v.i.  say that (in bad sence, slander, reproof).   Áre iwáhuŋe škúñi ke Wan^síge ga^igeñe ke,  Some people say that he does not know (anything, but in truth, the real facts support the opposite is true).   Héda wánsha xóñitan gawٕígena wakánda píškúñi warúdhe hñe ke,  And that old man preacher rebuked them, saying the devil was going to get them for their sins.   gá iráyin; ga^írayin  v.t.  think that; make up one’s mind.   Gá ihádayin  nu^á  kó^o ha^ún škúñi ke,  although, I have made up my mind, I have not yet done it (the work).   Sré hñe israyin je,  Do you think that you will go?  **SEE: iráyin; wáge.   gá iré  v.t.  think that; think as follows.   Tanhédan gratógre hinnáwišge  pí nu^áre ga iháre ke,  If we were all going together, I think that it would be good.  **SEE: iré; gaída.

    Jimm

From: Greer, Jill<mailto:Greer-J at MSSU.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2014 1:03 AM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: Aho!

Hi, Sky,

Interesting!  This is my gut response, without any new examples unfortunately.   I can't help but think that it's somehow ga- the locational prefix for something you can see, but not directly next to 1st and 2nd person (gaida 'over there  (but not yonder)', gaigu, etc. -  which could ultimately be related to gasuN also.  It might clarify actual location, or be used metaphorically for 'now/soon' even by itself.

Regarding your concern about it occurring after the verb, I can think of the common phrase Are gasuN khi 'It's okay/that's all right' , which looks like it could be in other parts of a sentence, too, besides the beginning?

Your last idea seems possible also,  about thge 'to be thus'  which could be a result ablauting before the command? I don't know if the initial fricative was missed by Hamilton, or was deleted.  (Sort of like 'Walk this way' :)  …)

Is there any precedent in other Siouan languages for an emphatic form related to IOM  kHe huN'  ?  I had the thought IF it were abbreviated to kHe, and occurred next to the -re 'command form',  it could ablaut to kha , and make an emphatic command.  (I have developed a personal English variant of that myself with my youngest son,  Do X  RIGHT NOW!  (Sometimes followed by 'I'm not joking',  just in case he's still not listening…)

It's getting late, so forgive me if I'm stretching the limits of Siouan ablaut rules.  Thanks for the examples, Sky.  I know I've read through Hamilton but had forgotten that peculiarity.  Help us out, friends.  Iren,  is there such a thing in Hochunk, too?

Jill

On Feb 21, 2014, at 11:24 PM, Sky Campbell <sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM<mailto:sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM>>
wrote:

I'll show a few more examples from Hamilton that may help.  The example I gave (wa-ka a-ta-ka-ræ) was from Hamilton's An Ioway Grammar, page 29.  The following examples are from Hamilton's An Elementary Book of the Ioway Language.  Perhaps these examples can help us find a common theme between them.  I'll show imperatives with and without the extra "ka" syllable.  FYI I'll also be using Hamilton's orthography.

æ-ka-ræ - say it, speak (page 21)

I've seen that as simply "a re" where the verb "e" for "say" changes to "a" for the imperative.

na-yæ-ræ - stand up (no "ka" here) (page 22)

ya-wæ-ræ - sing thou (no "ka" here) (page 23)

u-yu-ræ - fill it (no "ka" here) (page 24)

u-we-ra - do it (no "ka" here and is in plural form with the suffix -wi...might also be a typo since they went with "ra" rather than "ræ" unless he went for a possible female form but I'm doubting that since everything else seems to be exclusively in the male form) (page 24)

hu-we-ræ - come here (no "ka" here and another plural form (page 24)

ru-fæ-ræ - take it (no "ka" here) (page 24)

ma-yæ-ræ - walk thou (no "ka" here (page 25)

a-ta-ræ - see thou (no "ka" here and it is the same thing as my original example but without the "ka") (page 25)

jwæ-me-ka-ræ - doctor me (page 29)

e-cæ-ka-ræ - speak thou, tell (page 30)

wo-ug-ka-ræ - work thou (page 30)

ru-meg-ka-ræ - buy it (page 30)

me-na-we-ræ - sit ye down (no "ka" here and is in plural form) (page 30)

ke-kræ-we-ho - be ye gone (no "ka" here and is in plural form...also in the more polite imperative using "ho" instead of "re") (page 30)

u-jkun-yæ-ræ - do not do it (no "ka" here) (page 31)

wo-ku-we-ræ - give them (no "ka" here and is in plural form) (page 31)

Ok, this should do for now.  Typing out this list has given me a few tentative ideas that I need to flesh out but I'll be grateful for any input :).

Sky

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<http://listserv.unl.edu>] On Behalf Of Jimm Goodtracks
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 9:33 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: Aho!

That is an interesting find, and all your explanations are plausible, especially the 2nd one.  I do not recall coming across this before, and I can not find any thing like it in the IOM Dictionary.  The imperative works just as you say, and I know of no deviation.  The collected texts from Dorsey, and those from Julia Small, a monolingual speaker, did not have examples as you have found.

The mystery needs be reviewed by a higher power, namely the Siouan List, to whom I am going to cc this reply for their input by the professional experts and those who may have some explanation for this occurrence, or able to leave as a Hamilton phenomena.

From: Campbell, Sky<mailto:sky at omtribe.org>
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 10:44 AM
To: Jimm G. GoodTracks<mailto:jgoodtracks at gmail.com>
Subject: Aho!

Hope all is well up your way ☺.

Quick question about something I’ve noticed in Hamilton and Irvin’s books.  After some of the commands/imperatives, there is an extra syllable after the verb.  For example, they have:

wa-ka a-ta-ka-ræ – see the snake

I have no idea what the “ka” is doing after (what would be for us) “ada”.  But with Hamilton, he doesn’t differentiate between “k” and “g” so it may actually be a “g” for us.  He uses this quite a bit for commands but I’m not understanding why and so far I haven’t found any clues.  From what I can tell, it isn’t a form of plural since he uses –wi and he uses the singular 2nd person when the “ka” is used.  And he doesn’t always use it for the singular imperative form which is what adds to my confusion.

I have 3 possibilities that spring to mind.

First, the “ka” might be a contracted form of “gasun” which perhaps might be indicating that whatever the speaker wants done, they want it done now.  Not sure about this one since you usually see “gasun” at the beginning of a statement.

Second is that the ending imperative “re” may actually be a contraction of an older form “kare/gare” and it has just stopped being used.  That one is just a random guess LOL.

Finally, I am wondering if the “ka” is actually perhaps “ke/ge” to refer to “in like manner” (ithke) but since it is an imperative, the “e” changes to an “a”.  If so, then the above sentence would perhaps say something like “Look at the snake (in like manner).”  And if so, I wonder if the context of the conversation would indicate just exactly what the “like manner” means.

What do you think?

Sky Campbell, B. A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org<mailto:sky at omtribe.org>

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