FW: Finnish Towns

[Sandy Fleming]

Thanks, Charles!

I was aware of those groups but I don't think the handshapes available
satisfy the requirements of the BSL paper dictionary - they make a
distinction between a spread hand with the thumb forward, a spread hand with
the thumb forward and fingers angled, and this spread hand with the thumb
forward and fingers tense and very, very slightly angled. It's not a
distinction I would have thought of but you can see the difference in the
language easily enough once it's pointed out to you - in fact, the trouble
is that now that it's been pointed out to me I can't fail to notice it!  :)
Similarly for the other handshape.

As I said, however, the difference is subtle and these handshapes are only
used in classifiers so perhaps its just a matter of the tension usually
associated with classifiers, and just adding a tension mark will make things
clear enough.

Sandy

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Charles Butler [mailto:chazzer3 at erols.com]
> Sent: 09 October 2003 14:47
> To: sandy at scotstext.org
> Cc: SignWriting List
> Subject: Re: FW: Finnish Towns
>
>
> I got your .gifs of the handshapes just fine, Sandy.
>
> To the list, here are the groups that those two handshapes fit in, Group 3
> and Group 5a.  I believe that in Group 3, it's the first one in the second
> row, and in Group 5a, the same.
>
> ASL uses the first one for "squirrel" and Libras (Brazilian Sign Language)
> uses the second one for cat.
>
>
> Charles
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at FLEIMIN.DEMON.CO.UK>
> To: <SW-L at ADMIN.HUMBERC.ON.CA>
> Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2003 4:14 AM
> Subject: FW: Finnish Towns
>
>
> > Dear List,
> >
> > This message didn't seem to come through properly with the .gif, so I'm
> > resending without the .gif...
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Sandy Fleming [mailto:sandy at fleimin.demon.co.uk]
> > Sent: 09 October 2003 07:59
> > To: SignWriting List
> > Subject: RE: Finnish Towns
> >
> >
> > Val wrote:
> >
> > > Sure. And I understand this has to be worked through...the
> only problem
> > > I have is I am continually overwhelming people with "too many
> symbols",
> > > so I am trying to find a way to solve that problem, making a
> symbol-set
> > > that works for "everyday use"...
> >
> > Remember we had a challenge to list the handshapes for
> classifiers in our
> > languages? I've been a bit distracted from this recently so only got so
> far
> > with it. However, while working on it I had an idea for reducing the
> number
> > of handshapes required. It actually only avoids having to use a few
> > handshapes, but these are especially subtle or awkward ones
> that tend not
> to
> > be in the straightforward set of symbols.
> >
> > What happened was that before getting to work on the
> classifiers I decided
> > it would be a good idea to make up a SW list of all the handshapes
> actually
> > used in BSL. The Black Book (a big fat paper BSL dictionary that we have
> > here) already lists all the handshapes used in BSL but there
> were a couple
> > that weren't in the SSS.
> >
> > I've attached scans of the handshapes. The first one is used at the
> > beginning of signs for "walking casually" or "snake flicking out its
> > tongue" - it's always followed by flicking out the index and middle
> fingers
> > to show legs or forked tongue.
> >
> > The second isn't so clearly drawn but is intended to show a handshape
> that's
> > almost like a spread hand with the thumb forward, but the fingers are
> locked
> > straight and _very slightly_ angled at the knuckle joint. It's
> used in BSL
> > to indicate light sources and sprays of water.
> >
> > At first I was tempted to use approximate handshapes for those, ie a
> circle
> > hand with the tips of the thumb and middle and index finger
> touching, and
> > just a regular spread hand with the thumb forward. The
> problematic shapes
> > seemed like "more tense" versions of these handshapes.
> >
> > However, having slept on it, it occured to me that these handshapes are
> > _only_ used as classifiers (or, strictly speaking, proforms). Now, in SW
> > classifiers are generally shown with a tension mark (~) to indicate
> > classifier dynamics. So I decided I _could_ use the approximate, more
> > relaxed handshapes for those, because the fact that they are
> actually the
> > tense, classifier versions of the handshape will be shown in the SW by
> > having the tension mark against them. So by using the tension mark to
> > indicate classifier-specific handshapes I can avoid asking for
> still more
> > handshapes to be added to SW DOS/Java.
> >
> > I wonder if this is a principle that can be applied in other sign
> > languages - ie, that sometimes particularly tense, awkward
> handshapes are
> > used only for classifiers and so the more usual relaxed form plus a
> tension
> > mark can be used to indicate them?
> >
> > Sandy
>