AW: [sw-l] CZJ - Czech sign language: SKOLA (school) - video

Nana Dumitra nana.dumitra at SCHLOSSKLAUS.AT
Tue Aug 23 05:56:41 UTC 2005

Hello Charles and list,
I really liked your thoughts on the issue. FSL is now the 4th sign
language that I am learning (please don’t think that I really know all
four, but at least in Romanian and FSL I can get by without help). What
I found in all four languages is that even when I know them quite well
there are many situations where I think that I know exactly how the sign
is used. Then some deaf people will come and point out that I am doing
it wrong. Funny, to me their “correction” often looks exactly the same
as what I am doing
This has happened even more often since using SW,
because now I need to write down exactly what I see :-).
But as you say, Charles, out siders can be very helpful in asking
questions or in helping with technical aspects of SW – I am just now
learning a lot from these “outsiders”, thanks Stefan and Val.
I really enjoy the many different aspects of Sign Languages we get to
discuss, so many things we would not think of just on our own! Thank you
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-sw-l at
[mailto:owner-sw-l at] On Behalf Of Charles Butler
Sent: Sonntag, 21. August 2005 23:06
To: sw-l at
Subject: Re: AW: [sw-l] CZJ - Czech sign language: SKOLA (school) -
I think our disagreement on both hand shape and essential movement is
caused by internal versus external viewpoints.
The original writer is Czech and knows the sign and can watch both the
video and his own arms and sees an essential turning of the wrist as
well as a movement, and knows the handshape used.
An external party, speaking from a different language, who does not know
the sign in everyday use in Czech, can, at the most, take a guess from
the video.
Native signers of a language know best, though non-native speakers can
certainly help edit what they write.  I acted as an editor in Libras, a
language I am learning, while in Brazil, and often had to stop, look at
what a native signer had written, and duplicate it carefully on my hands
before I would rewrite it, but only with a very careful discussion with
the signer to ensure that what I saw was what was being signed.
This is my word of caution on our discussions.
If the handshape that is being discussed is a bent hand, then the
movement is a bent hand.  If a viewer sees a flat hand with the back of
the hand to the right, they are seeing the same orientation, but
disagreeing on the handshape.  The query then becomes, is this a
critical difference in the language of discussion".  That can then
become quite productive as a separate discussion.  
Various layers of linguistic parsing can result, as is happening on this
list.  However, we should always defer to the native signer of his or
her own language as the final authority on what handshape is actually
being used.

Stefan Wöhrmann <stefanwoehrmann at GEBAERDENSCHRIFT.DE> wrote:
Hi Honza, Tomas, Shane, Valerie, Charles ... sw -list

today I looked for the fist time at this "skola -video" - 

There are - as always many more variations how to write the sign in SW. 

Looking at Shane's comment ("crap and shit" )- I had to smile. 

Well if you would accept that the signer is actually doing a lot with
mouth - (smile) you would not identify this sign as " a total crap" --
"total shit" - 

Dr Penny Boyes Braem from Switzerland made me very attentive to these

So obviously the sign that is shown in this video is a combination of
of "voiceless articulation movements" which can be written with my
Mundbildschrift - 

looking at the hand and at the moovement I can imagine a different

So it depends who should get the information. Students who are on !
their way
to use bilingual materials in order to develop Spoken Language skills
definitely take advantage out of a very detailed spelling - .

Once they know the terms in SL and Spoken Languages a less detailed
Mundbildschrift would do it - if there are no similar signs - which can
to confusion. But that depends on the scribes knowledge of the given SL
his intentions. 

Stefan ;-)) 

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: owner-sw-l at
[mailto:owner-sw-l at] Im Auftrag von Valerie
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 18. August 2005 23:26
An: sw-l at
Betreff: Re: [sw-l] CZJ - Czech sign language: SKOLA (school) - video

SignWriting List
August 18, 2005

Shane Ó hEorpa wrote:
> In British Sign Language, that sign mean "a total crap" or "a total 
> shit" if
> done once - if twice, it mean "it is rubbish" or "it is crap"

! Great. This means that you can copy the sign for Skola in the Czech 
SignPuddle and paste it into the BSL SignPuddle, and change the name 
of the sign, and you don't have to re-write it! That will add one 
more sign to the BSL SignPuddle! Val ;-)

PS. List members...If you need instructions on how to paste signs 
from one SignPuddle to another, just ask me!
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <>

More information about the Sw-l mailing list