Deaf opposition to SW

Sat Aug 6 22:19:12 UTC 2005

Stef,

You know I agree with Val's system :D

Not everyone would agree with her system - and even if they use it, they
will only "nit pick" in order to feel superior - the thread is about the
deaf opposition to SW and I was simply recounting what happened at the ESWO
:-)

We have so much work to do, Stef!

Shane

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu [mailto:owner-sw-
> l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu] On Behalf Of Stefan Wöhrmann
> Sent: 06 August 2005 21:07
> To: sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu
> Subject: AW: [sw-l] Deaf opposition to SW
> 
> Hi Shane -
> 
> please -- !!
> 
> what was your information about anybody who has been "SO BENT" ... on
> finding fault with SignWriting
> 
> What can be thought of ... being fault with SignWriting  except people try
> to avoid the experience to become illiterate
> if they are confronted with the concept that there is a perfect writing
> system for everyday purpose ...
> 
> Stefan;-)
> 
> 
> 
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: owner-sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu
> [mailto:owner-sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu] Im Auftrag von Shane
> Gilchrist
> Ó hEorpa
> Gesendet: Samstag, 6. August 2005 21:50
> An: sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu
> Betreff: RE: [sw-l] Deaf opposition to SW
> 
> 
> "so bent" - it’s a negative term that means that someone is very insisting
> on something - the positive term is "they are so willing" ;-) - ain't
> languages amazing at times?
> 
> For instance, Schroeder was so bent on introducing his "welfare state"
> reform :-) - or Merkel is so bent on not letting Turkey join the EU (as im
> a
> big fan of Turkey
> 
> Shane
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu [mailto:owner-sw-
> > l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu] On Behalf Of Stefan Wöhrmann
> > Sent: 06 August 2005 19:59
> > To: sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu
> > Subject: AW: [sw-l] Deaf opposition to SW
> >
> > Hi Shane,
> >
> > "some deaf participants there were SO BENT on finding fault with
> > SignWriting" -
> >
> > What do you mean? Did I miss something? Can you explain ??
> >
> > My English is not good enough -- "were SO BENT "  ?????
> >
> > What did these participants (whoever) suggest??
> >
> > Stefan ;-)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> > Von: owner-sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu
> > [mailto:owner-sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu] Im Auftrag von Shane
> > Gilchrist
> > Ó hEorpa
> > Gesendet: Samstag, 6. August 2005 18:33
> > An: sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu
> > Betreff: RE: [sw-l] Deaf opposition to SW
> >
> > James,
> >
> > It was very interesting at the ESWO conference - some deaf participants
> > there were SO BENT on finding fault with SignWriting - Stefan said that
> > the
> > ESWO conference is discussing and developing SignWriting in an European
> > context - we will have a very long fight ahead, trying to get the system
> > accepted - but I do think SW will be accepted in Northern Ireland very
> > soon
> > - but we need to ask a trainer to come over and train my people how to
> do
> > it
> > - I know they will do it shall they be given the right teacher.
> >
> > Shane of Belfast
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: owner-sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu [mailto:owner-sw-
> > > l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu] On Behalf Of James Shepard-Kegl, Esq.
> > > Sent: 06 August 2005 15:22
> > > To: sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu
> > > Subject: Re: [sw-l] Deaf opposition to SW
> > >
> > > Sandy,
> > >
> > > Perhaps you might ask whether English should be written.  Of course,
> the
> > > response would be a bemused look at such a silly question.  Why?
> > Because
> > > everyone knows that English is written -- why my grandparents wrote it
> > > (and
> > > for those of us who can trace back to colonial America (not me) their
> > > grandparents, too.)  Why, English was always written (maybe not quite
> > > true,
> > > but who cares), always will be....
> > >
> > > It occurs to me that if Deaf schoolchildren learned SignWriting
> without
> > > realizing that their school curriculum was somewhat unique in that
> > > respect,
> > > well ... those children might also react in a with a quizzical,
> bemused
> > > look
> > > to the question of whether a sign language should have a written form.
> > >
> > > Old habits die hard.  And new points of view only become much later to
> > be
> > > regarded as obvious truths.
> > >
> > > -- James
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > on 8/6/05 6:39 AM, Sandy Fleming at sandy at scotstext.org wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi Adam, Val and List!
> > > >
> > > > I've had a few discussions of SignWriting with Deaf people and
> > signing,
> > > > hearing parents of Deaf children.
> > > >
> > > > I invariably find myself running straight into arguments against
> > writing
> > > > sign languages - nearly everyone objects to the idea to start with -
> > but
> > > > for those involved in Deaf culture I've discovered that one argument
> > in
> > > > favour of writing sign languages always works, and that's the
> equality
> > > > argument. Recently I was trying to put the case for SignWriting to a
> > > > hearing woman who is learning BSL because she has a Deaf child who
> has
> > > > just started at a full-BSL school. She shot down every argument for
> > > > having SignWriting in the school, but once I started talking about
> it
> > in
> > > > terms of equality she started agreeing with me and even wondered if
> > the
> > > > teachers at the school might be interested.
> > > >
> > > > Why should the Deaf write their languages? ...because the Hearing
> > write
> > > > _their_ languages. It's about equality.
> > > >
> > > > But written sign language doesn't capture the full aspect of the
> > > > language ...but neither does written oral language. It's about
> > equality.
> > > >
> > > > But Deaf people can record their language on video nowadays ...so
> > would
> > > > the Heaing put up with having to use a tape recorder all the time?
> > It's
> > > > about equality.
> > > >
> > > > But really, what's wrong with video? ...it's only one medium. Oral
> > > > languages work in all mediums, so should sign languages. It's about
> > > > equality.
> > > >
> > > > But Deaf children can learn from books in English ...so would it be
> > > > better if English people learned from books in Chinese? It's about
> > > equality.
> > > >
> > > > ...and so on!
> > > >
> > > > I'm not saying that any of this is a new idea, just that I've found
> > that
> > > > equality issues as an argument really work where other arguments
> fail.
> > I
> > > > should emphasise the importance of actually using the word or sign
> > > > "equality" in such arguments! People support equality.
> > > >
> > > > Sandy
> > > >
> > > > Valerie Sutton wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> SignWriting List
> > > >> July 20, 2005
> > > >>
> > > >> On Jul 20, 2005, at 10:42 AM, Adam Frost wrote:
> > > >> I have actually done a research on this topic for a paper in
> school.
> > > >> I found that most Deaf didn't like the idea of SW not mainly
> because
> > > >> they feel that it can't capture the full aspect of the language
> > > >> (although it is a strong argument that some have), but that SW
> would
> > > >> cause hearing people to have a lessened view of ASL as a language,
> > > >> and it would also separate Deaf from hearing people even more. I
> > > >> personally don't agree with any of that (of course, or I wouldn't
> be
> > > >> here now would I. LOL!)
> > > >> -----------------
> > > >>
> > > >> Adam and Everyone -
> > > >>
> > > >> They are talking out of ignorance, Adam! I believe it is a weak
> > > >> argument. They obviously have not tried to learn SignWriting, and
> > > >> they are against the new idea, without really learning it first. We
> > > >> can write sooo much detail and capture the nuances of ASL far more
> > > >> than either the IPA or written English captures spoken
> English...and
> > > >> we are not hurting ASL to write it, only enhancing it...
> > > >>
> > > >> The only criticism that I care about, are from those people who
> > > >> really have taken the time to learn and use SignWriting - your
> > > >> opinions matter because you know what you are talking about...but
> > > >> anyone can criticize something they do not know, to avoid having to
> > > >> take the trouble of learning it...There are still people who talk
> > > >> against using computers, afterall, and it has been decades since
> > > >> computers have come into everyday life here -
> > > >>
> > > >> And I know some smokers, who still argue there is no proof that it
> > > >> can hurt your health...so some people do not like change and they
> are
> > > >> afraid of it...
> > > >>
> > > >> An article to read about this issue...
> > > >>
> > > >> http://signwriting.org/about/questions/quest021.html
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Val ;-)
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 