AW: [sw-l] SignWriting, Mouth Movements, and Email in foreign signed languages ;-)

Sun Aug 21 20:37:56 UTC 2005

Hi Valerie – 

your explanation of all of this is just perfect!!!! 

Answers to your last questions: 

1. Since Mundbildschrift supports articulation, could I learn how to
pronounce German words from it, as a foreigner to the spoken language?

Yes! Your articulation would be perfect. Even if you would not know what you
are saying, a person familiar with German would be able to tell you what you
are saying. The funny aspect about this is that you would be able to read
out loud the document but the hearing person – not familiar with
Mundbildschrift wouldn’t be able to read any single word. 

There is another impressing factor. Teaching my deaf students the first
words and letters and sentences in English I only use “Mundbildschrift –
documents.” So they get used to speak out loud English (ha – well might be
with my German accent – smile) Nevertheless they get accustomed to how to
pronouce the numbers, the ABC, little phrases ... 

Afterwards – I show the written document – written in English – wow – they
cannot believe that they are supposed to articulate these written words in
the now familiar way. They rush back to the Mundbildschrift document to
speak English smile – but of course this way they are guided into this new
concept of how to articulate a written word if it is not a German word ... 

Anyway this is an interesting experience... 

2. When you read a sign in the German SignPuddle...a sign that has a lot of
Mouth Movement symbols from SignWriting on top of the sign...are we reading
Mundbilder, or Mundbildschrift?

smile...

We never read Mundbildschrift. 

Mundbildschrift is associated and based on sound. You differenciate between
differet “S”- sounds, you understand that it is different to speak a “B” or
a “P”  .... 

Mundbilder in der Gebaerdenschrift do not are about that. Well you can
identify an “M” or a “A”, “O”, “L”  ... and some other impressions of the
tongue and mouth – but many of them can lead to a number (!!!) of different
sounds ... 

So yes – in SignPuddle or in any other German SignWriting  document  We read
“Mundbilder in der Gebaerdenschrift” 

I will change the subject soon...I just want to learn how to read your
German Sign email - that is all! I am enjoying learning to read German
signs!

Thank you very much for your interest! 

Stefan ;-)) 

  _____  

Von: owner-sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu
[mailto:owner-sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu] Im Auftrag von Valerie Sutton
Gesendet: Sonntag, 21. August 2005 20:18
An: sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu
Betreff: [sw-l] SignWriting, Mouth Movements, and Email in foreign signed
languages ;-)

SignWriting List

August 21, 2005

Hello Stefan!

Many thanks for this insightful email message...Before I answer your message
below (see below), I want to clear up the terminology for all of you...

Charles Butler wrote:

i see GebaerdenSchrift as very parallel to Cued Speech.  With a handful of
handshapes, HoH people are helped to learn spoken language fairly accurately
by being able to divide sounds on the face by articulators that don't appear
on the face.  Best example is that the words "red" and "green" look exactly
the same on the face to a hard-of-hearing person, but their internal
articulators (inside the mouth) are different.

Val answered...

Thanks for this message above, Charles...

It is my understanding, that the word GebaerdenSchrift means SignWriting in
German...So GebaerdenSchrift (SignWriting) cannot be compared to Cued
Speech! Ha!...I know you didn't mean that (grin ;-))

I believe this is the correct terminology?...Is this correct, Stefan? ;-)

GebaerdenSchrift....means SignWriting in German.

Mundbilder (I have just learned by reading Stefan's message below) means the
mouth movements that are done as a natural part of signed languages

Mundbildschrift (I believe) means the writing of mouth articulation when
speaking German words, that assists Deaf students to be able to speak words
better...but there are no handshapes involved like Cued Speech at all...just
writing the way the mouth looks when you speak...so it is quite different
than Cued Speech I believe, which is not written?...

OK...so now...answers below from me too...

Stefan Wöhrmann <stefanwoehrmann at GEBAERDENSCHRIFT.DE> wrote:

Hi Valerie and list - 

no (smile) it is not possible to learn German words through the Mundbilder
in GebaerdenSchrift. There are many reasons for that. The most important
reason is that there is no distinct match between a given sound of German
langauge and a specific Mundbild in GebaerdenSchrift. 

But there is another notation system called "Mundbildschrift" - 

Really! I didn't realize there was a difference between the term Mundbilder
and Mundbildschrift!...Thanks for informing me...

The difference between these two system is somewhat complicated. 

In my "Handbuch zur GebaerdenSchrift" there is a whole chapter only about
this aspect. 

Ha! I need to read your wonderful new book!! I am glad you explained it
there...and here too!

Since SL does not care about sound and voice - but depends on looking at the
hands, body a n d mouth these "Mundbilder in der GebaerdenSchrift" just
give some impressions about the voiceless (silent) mouth movements while
somebody is performing a sign. 

Of course. So your term Mundbilder means Facial Expressions or Mouth
Movements in our English terminology. I never use the word Pictures in
English, since that is looked-down on, in my culture, as unsophisticated, by
some linguists here. Since we have a real writing system, I just say
"writing Mouth Movements"...but leave the word picture out of it...but I
understand fully what you mean! And I am sure the term pictures is perfect
in Germany...

A good example may be the video of "skola" we discus! sed in detail - smile.

Just look at the mouth of the performer. 

I haven't been able to view the videotape, since I am only setup for
quicktime right now...I have to get my avi viewer up and running...

Well - the "internal point of view" tells the scribe that this sign stems
from Czech SL so he is going to move his lipse like saying the word "SH" "C"
"O - like in all" "L" and "A" 

In fact you can't identify all these distinct "stills" and of course -
Charles - it has something to do with your knowledge in before - 

But nevertheless it is up to the skilled SignWriting scribe to accept a
performance just as it is - or to neglect or to suppress some of the
information that is offered. 

Yes. Sure. Knowing the sign in advance helps!

Contrary to that the "Mundbildschrift" is a system that supports
articulation. But this is not a question most people of the SW - list are
interested in. It is not a matter of SW but much more a typical educational
matter if teacher try to support deaf children to improve articulation. If
so - "Mundbildschrift" turns ot to become a wonderful support. 

OK. Well...Mundbildschrift is not SignWriting...because it is not writing
signed languages, but Mundbilder (in German) are a part of SignWriting...I
understand (I hope! ;-)

BUT....Mundbildschrift is using symbols from the general Sutton Movement
Writing system, and then you applied those symbols to a specific use...what
I used to call Speech Writing... what you call MundbildSchrift...and that is
wonderful!

So I still have this question...

1. Since Mundbildschrift supports articulation, could I learn how to
pronounce German words from it, as a foreigner to the spoken language?

2. When you read a sign in the German SignPuddle...a sign that has a lot of
Mouth Movement symbols from SignWriting on top of the sign...are we reading
Mundbilder, or Mundbildschrift?

smile...

I will change the subject soon...I just want to learn how to read your
German Sign email - that is all! I am enjoying learning to read German
signs!

Val ;-)

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/sw-l/attachments/20050821/7e10a2fc/attachment.htm>