AW: [sw-l] brother and sister

[Honza]

Hi,

I haven't read whole discussion on this topic, but I fully agree with
Lucyna.
It is the same here in Czech Rep. Most old deaf and some hard of hearig
people use signed language with silent(deaf)/ loud(hoh) oral speach. It
is not very understendable without good knowledge of spoken language.

Honza

Lucyna Dlugolecka wrote:

> Hello List,
>
> The discussion on varieties of sign languages, mouthing and
> distinguishing signs is very interesting. In my opinion, the problems
> and doubts in this matters arise due the belief that the spoken tongue
> one uses is the fullest language. For example, if grammatical genders
> occur in this tongue, they are to occur also in other tongues.
> Languages are more diversified than they seem to be. For example,
> there are no articles in Polish. Someone might wonder: how come? How
> do the Poles distinguish definite and indefinicte nouns? I don't know
> why :-) but I assure we manage pretty well :-). The same way other
> nations go without 7 cases.
>
> As to sign language varieties in Poland, the situation is the same as
> in the USA. Most Deaf people use Polish Sign Language (PJM) without
> oral speech. That is, they use oral components (we call them
> vocalizations) that are an inherent part of PJM. These components are
> non-manual elememts of the grammar. But, if the Deaf can speak and
> they have to talk to a signing hearing person or to a hard-of-hearing
> person, they often use oral speech along with the signs. Most Deaf are
> poor at Polish, so they don't bother if they use correct Polish
> grammar when signing or not. There are also people (deaf, hearing or
> hard of hearing) who use something like a pidgin sign language. I mean
> they use PJM signs, Polish word order and some grammatical aspects of
> PJM (facial expression, space usage etc.). And we have also Signed
> Polish, called also System Jezykowo-Migowy (SJM, Language Sign
> System). It was worked out by professor Bogdan Szczepankowski, a
> hard-of-hearing person. He changed, concocted and rearranged signs so
> that SJM is barely understandable by the Deaf. But since it is used by
> the teachers of the Deaf in almost all schools for the Deaf in Poland,
> young people can understand it, to some degree.
>
> My first language is Polish but I prefer PJM to communicate with the
> Deaf. The pure PJM is so beautiful, rich and understandable, whereas,
> if someone is signing and speaking at the same time, I have a problem
> to understand him/her very well. I don't know whether I have to read
> the lips or to track the hand movements and to watch the facial
> expression. In most cases I see contradictory signals, for example
> mounthing is too clear and the facial expression is too poor. But it
> easier for me to see hand movements than to read the lips. Or I read a
> word that does not correspond to the sign. Or the person is poor at
> languages and confuses the meanings. Here is an example if such
> confusion (from a prayer):
>
> Polish: Siedzi po prawicy Boga Ojca wszechmogacego.
> English translation: He is sitteth at the right hand of God the Father
> Allmighty.
> Signed Polish: SIEDZIEC PO PRAWICA BOG OJCIEC WSZYSTKO MOC
> Word for word in English: SIT AFTER RIGHT-HAND GOD FATHER ALL CAN
> PJM: BOG OJCIEC WSZYSTKO MOC [zmiana miejsca w przestrzeni] JEZUS
> SIEDZIEC
> Word for word in English: GOD FATHER ALL CAN [space change] JESUS SIT
>
> Educators have thought that Signed Polish would help Deaf children
> learn Polish. But it does not help, it introduces chaos into their
> minds. Their Polish is like SIEDZIEC PO PRAWICA BOG OJCIEC WSZYSTKO MOC.
>
> Lucyna
>
>
>
>