Summary of writing steps for SignWriting

[Ingvild Roald]

Stuart and all,

you don't really mean that a sign has to be iconic for the whole to give 
meaning? I doubt if a child is thinking of the process of milking a cow when 
signing 'MILK',

Ingvild





>From: "Stuart Thiessen" <sw at PASSITONSERVICES.ORG>
>Reply-To: sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu
>To: sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu
>Subject: Re: [sw-l] Summary of writing steps for SignWriting
>Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 10:22:23 -0500
>
>Ok, I see what you are meaning here.  A few questions ...
>
>1) At what point in your process do you consider non-manual markers ... B 
>or E?
>
>2) What about situations where the iconicity of the sign is less obvious or 
>the relationship of the meaning to the sign's production is not clear? Do 
>you still do step A?
>
>3) Under step E, do you reiterate steps C through E until all other 
>articulators are accounted for?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Stuart
>
>On Oct 8, 2005, at 9:30, Charles Butler wrote:
>
>>I understand, my ordering of the dictionary was based on my observation.
>> 
>>A) Start with the whole meaning?
>> 
>>B) Then, is there my hand, or with the part of the body (face, tongue, 
>>teeth) that articulates.  That is the "logical" center of the writing 
>>process. 
>> 
>>C) Then, what does that think DO?  It is sitting there (contact) or moving 
>>(in various ways)?
>> 
>>D) Is it in tension, or relaxed?
>> 
>>E) Are there other parts connected to it? Other hands, body parts, points 
>>in the air?
>> 
>>F) That way I'm not overwhelmed.  And when I dissect a sign, that's how I 
>>dissect it.
>> 
>>For example, the sign Aniol - discussed on line.
>> 
>>A) The whole sign is of a person flapping wings as an angel.   Gestalt, 
>>that's what you want to show.
>> 
>>B) What part ISN'T moving around which the sign revolves. The thumbs.  
>>That's where I start. 
>> 
>>C) The thumbs, attached to two "Y" hands are fixed in place,
>> 
>>D) Uunder tension, not touching each other.
>> 
>>E) Now how is the rest of the body moving to show those flapping wings.  
>>Is it the wrists?  No, the whole arm is involved.
>> 
>>F) Which way is the primary motion.  In this case, it took a little to 
>>isolate, but eventually it is circular motion coming back toward the body 
>>(tracing the elbows in space). 
>> 
>>The discussion of all of the writers trying to articulate this sign led to 
>>clear understanding of what looked to be complicated to what, in 
>>retrospect, is clear.
>> 
>>Thanks,
>> 
>>Charles
>> 
>>Charles
>>
>>
>>Stuart Thiessen <sw at PASSITONSERVICES.ORG> wrote:
>>>Thanks, Charles! This is a good description of an ordering sequence.
>>>But what I am looking for is more of a description of how to "process"
>>>a sign for writing purposes. In other words, it seems to me that a
>>>newbie (to borrow a computer term) who looks at a sign might easily get
>>>overwhelmed by the amount of detail in a sign. Another scenario might
>>>be a skeptic might look at a complex sign and say, "This is an example
>>>of a sign that cannot be written."
>>>
>>>If we have a good description of how to "decompose" a sign for writing
>>>purposes, then it helps us to identify a place to start and how to
>>>proceed until the whole sign is properly written. A good process will
>>>also help new students of SignWriting develop good habits of how to
>>>write signs. For example, the way I learned contact symbols, I always
>>>thought I put the contact symbol near the place of contact and then the
>>>hand goes as close to the contact symbol as possible. It was only
>>>recently that I learned that I was wrong in that approach. Now, to
>>>solve this with a process of writing, I would put in the process to
>>>identify the hands and put them near the point of contact first. Then
>>>identify the type of contact and place the contact symbol near the
>>>hands and the place of contact. My inaccurate process before was to
>>>identify the type of contact and place the contact symbol. Next, I
>>>would identify the hand(s) and place them near the contact symbol and
>>>place of contact. So you can see how a clear process for "decomposing"
>>>a sign would help in teaching proper writing techniques. I think this
>>>is more important when we are going from 3D to 2D as compared to spoken
>>>languages which in general are sequential (unless you are talking about
>>>tonal languages which are also complex to write).
>>>
>>>I agree with Bill, though. With time, practice, and community
>>>consensus, this will eventually become standardized where we actually
>>>memorize a spelling much like people do in other written languages. But
>>>my concern at this point is for those who are either starting or
>>>skeptical or simply can't see where to begin.
>>>
>>>Thanks,
>>>
>>>Stuart
>>>
>>>On Oct 7, 2005, at 14:00, Charles Butler wrote:
>>>
>>> >
>>> > Logic of the Order
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > The author, using the teaching sequence in Valerie Sutton’s Lessons in
>>> > SignWriting [1] (see
>>> >
>>> > also, http://www.signwriting.org/lessons/lessons.html) translated into
>>> >
>>> > Portuguese and Libras by Marianne Rossi Stumpf with input from Valerie
>>> > Sutton and Charles
>>> >
>>> > Butler, needed a way to sequence the signs of a
>>> > Libras-Portuguese/Portuguese-Libras dictionary
>>> >
>>> > so that an index of signs could be prepared by handshape and other
>>> > markers for later
>>> >
>>> > database and encylopedic development.
>>> >
>>> > The order of the system (reduced to two pages in the attachment, is as
>>> > follows).
>>> >
>>> > 1. The writing is 1st-person, from the signer’s point of view. The
>>> > complete SignWriting
>>> >
>>> > system allows for both 1st-person and 3rd-person writing, the
>>> > dictionary is based on the
>>> >
>>> > signer’s point of view.
>>> >
>>> > 2 Butler, C. An Ordering System for SignWriting
>>> >
>>> > 2. The writing is right-hand primary. Examples are currently taken
>>> > from the right hand primary
>>> >
>>> > viewpoint. Left hand primary signs are not currently included in the
>>> > corpus under
>>> >
>>> > discussion. A separate later article will discuss left-hand primary
>>> > signing and the overall
>>> >
>>> > order of the system.
>>> >
>>> > 3. As the system, as a writing system, often assumes “signer space”,
>>> > the body of the signer
>>> >
>>> > is not shown as a relative position marker unless it is necessary for
>>> > understanding, such
>>> >
>>> > as face or body contact or spacial location. Signs that occur in
>>> > ”neutral” space come first
>>> >
>>> > in the system, followed by signs which include the head or body as
>>> > spatial locations.
>>> >
>>> > 4. A sign which uses the hands only comes first, followed later in the
>>> > system by signs which
>>> >
>>> > only use the face, the head, or the body posture and not the hands.
>>> >
>>> > 5. With signs which use the hands, the first marker that is addressed
>>> > is the primary hand, in
>>> >
>>> > this case, the right hand.
>>> >
>>> > 6. From what Group does the primary hand shape come from? (from the 10
>>> > groups of hands
>>> >
>>> > used by the SignWriting system, articulated by which fingers are being
>>> > used)
>>> >
>>> > 7. Which particular handshape within those groups is being used on the
>>> > primary hand? The
>>> >
>>> > handshapes are ordered by the way in which they are taught in the
>>> > Manual, plus the way
>>> >
>>> > they appear in the SignWriter software. The system in the graphic file
>>> > below includes all
>>> >
>>> > handshapes appearing in the corpus of the dictionary in the order in
>>> > which they appear.
>>> >
>>> > 8. Which orientation (of the six available, palm-toward-reader,
>>> > palm-facing-left, palm-awayfrom-
>>> >
>>> > reader, palm-up-hand-pointing-out-from reader, palm facing
>>> > left-hand-pointing-outfrom-
>>> >
>>> > reader, palm-down-pointint out from reader).
>>> >
>>> > 9. Which rotation (counter-clockwise) of the right hand (starting with
>>> > the up position and
>>> >
>>> > rotation by 45 degrees).
>>> >
>>> > 10. Are the fingers being articulated? Joint movements are ordered
>>> > here (first knuckle open,
>>> >
>>> > first knuckle close, second knuckle open, second knuckle closed)
>>> >
>>> > 11. Does the hand touch or move close to a portion of the body which
>>> > is included in the
>>> >
>>> > writing sample? (A body touch, for example, even if the body is not
>>> > shown, such as the
>>> >
>>> > sign for ”meu,”, ”minha”, or ”mine” all touch the center of the body
>>> > with the open flat
>>> >
>>> > hand..) If so, the order is top of head to bottom of feet, top to
>>> > bottom, left to right. The
>>> >
>>> > graphic shows most of the positions appearing in the corpus.
>>> >
>>> > 12. What kind of touch is being articulated. The order is touch, hold,
>>> > strike, in-between, brush,
>>> >
>>> > rub.
>>> >
>>> > 13. What speed is the articulation, fast or slow?
>>> >
>>> > 14. Is there a facial expression? Facial expressions are top to
>>> > bottom, left to right, depending
>>> >
>>> > on which parts of the face are being articulated. The blank face comes
>>> > first (used when
>>> >
>>> > you simply want to show that the hand moves across the face) followed
>>> > by particular
>>> >
>>> > expressions.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Stuart Thiessen wrote:See comments below ...
>>> >>
>>> >> Thanks,
>>> >>
>>> >> Stuart
>>> >>
>>> >> On Oct 7, 2005, at 11:06, Bill Reese wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> > Stuart,
>>> >> >
>>> >> > I don't see mention of facial symbols.
>>> >>
>>> >> I tend to group facial expressions, body shifts, etc. into a category
>>> >> that I call "non-manual markers." When we get into phrases, 
>>>sentences,
>>> >> etc., there are more influences from the non-manuals that need to be
>>> >> considered. This is especially true for situations where a facial
>>> >> expression or body shift or head shift will continue over a phrase or
>>> >> sentence. I guess my approach is to start with the lexical item and
>>> >> then consider its context and apply the necessary non-manuals. In 
>>>some
>>> >> cases, I might apply the non-manuals earlier if they are a part of 
>>>the
>>> >> anchor (like facial expressions to the head symbol, etc.). I assume
>>> >> that with fluency and habit, this process may not be rigorously
>>> >> followed, but I think some process is needed for instructional
>>> >> purposes.
>>> >>
>>> >> > Also, locations left and right of an "anchor" seems to imply an
>>> >> anchor
>>> >> > that is centrally placed. Since most signs are done at chest level,
>>> >> > perhaps, for purposes of writing a sign, the spatial anchor would 
>>>be
>>> >> > the center of the chest, corresponding to the center of the sign
>>> >> frame
>>> >> > space. Even if the sign has an anchor on a location of the body,
>>> >> that
>>> >> > location, in turn, needs to be anchored, thus making the center of
>>> >> the
>>> >> > chest a convenient reference point. Maybe this is too simplistic,
>>> >> > but it would give a standard reference point that would be readily
>>> >> > understood.
>>> >>
>>> >> This is true. However, if I was signing my name, my anchor is 
>>>actually
>>> >> the dominant side of my head. If I were signing the old ASL sign for
>>> >> Russia, my anchor is actually my hips. So that was why I mentioned
>>> >> both
>>> >> neutral space (near the central region of the chest) and/or a 
>>>specific
>>> >> location on the body for the anchor.
>>> >>
>>> >> >
>>> >> > My first reaction, though, was that after a period of time, we
>>> >> > progress beyond the construction of the sign by it's individual
>>> >> > symbols to just the sign itself and, further, to phrases and
>>> >> > sentences. At that point, we may not be constructing a written sign
>>> >> > based on the recording of an observed sign but more on rote
>>> >> > memorization of written signs accepted as standard. In which case,
>>> >> > the writing of the sign may very well take on a type of 
>>>construction
>>> >> > that's very close to what you have listed but in a standardized
>>> >> > manner. Perhaps Valerie's pronunciation rules could be used here.
>>> >>
>>> >> Agreed. The purpose of my description is to help people who believe 
>>>it
>>> >> is impossible to write a sign or who want to learn how to write a 
>>>sign
>>> >> to see how to break down the steps. Once they see how a sign can be
>>> >> broken down and written, then they may be more willing to go the next
>>> >> step to learn how to write it. I just want to be sure that I am
>>> >> following a good process for writing it down. If you all have a
>>> >> different process, I am interested to learn it because maybe my
>>> >> process
>>> >> needs refining or maybe like Perl programmers say, "TMTOWTDI" 
>>>(There's
>>> >> More Than One Way To Do It). If I teach my process and a student
>>> >> doesn't get it, maybe another process will help them.
>>> >>
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Bill
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Stuart Thiessen wrote:
>>> >> >
>>> >> >> I was just looking for a way to describe in basic, simple terms 
>>>how
>>> >> >> we move from a sign we see to a sign we write. Any feedback on
>>> >> these
>>> >> >> steps as a way to describe this process? It would be much
>>> >> >> appreciated. I came up with these steps. I am not sure about the
>>> >> >> timing of #6, but I just put it there for now. I wanted to think
>>> >> of a
>>> >> >> way to help people visualize the process. This is what I catch
>>> >> myself
>>> >> >> doing. What about you all?
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> 1. Identify the sign’s “anchor.” This could be neutral space in
>>> >> front
>>> >> >> of the body or it could be some location on the body.
>>> >> >> 2. If hands are involved (we should never assume always), we need
>>> >> to
>>> >> >> identify the handshape(s) and orientation(s) and select the
>>> >> >> corresponding symbol(s), placing the symbol(s) in 2D relationship
>>> >> to
>>> >> >> the anchor.
>>> >> >> 3. If the hand(s) contact the body or each other, we need to 
>>>select
>>> >> >> the appropriate contact symbol to represent the contact.
>>> >> >> 4. Unless the sign is stationary or only consisting of simple
>>> >> >> contact, we now look to identify the movement of the hand(s) and
>>> >> >> select the appropriate movement symbol(s).
>>> >> >> 5. If the hand(s) change to another handshape(s) during the
>>> >> movement,
>>> >> >> we select those handshape(s) and note their location(s).
>>> >> >> 6. Finally, we note any particular dynamics (fast, slow, tense,
>>> >> etc.)
>>> >> >> and any non-manual markers that are essential to the sign.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Thanks,
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Stuart
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>