ASL Sign for 10 looks strange...what do you think?

[Charles Butler]

But confusing to whom?  Take a real poll?  We are the users of this system Valerie, and Iconicity is the necessity for the system.  If the only sign it is confusing is the extended middle finger, then we really need to stop and think about it.  When I look at my hand, and I look at the page, and the thumb is no longer sticking straight up, there is something really wrong here.  
 
  Each other will NOT look right with the thumbs sticking out to the side.  
 
  The A hand in help, by the same reasoning, would have to be turned.
 
I think the Iconicity of sign writing suffers greatly on this one handshape, at least at the halfway position.  This is a loss that simply does not make sense to me.
 
It's only the 1/2 way position that looks wrong, all the others feel right, and look right, but this one positiion needs to be seriously looked at for its iconicity.  If I look at my hand with the thumb sticking straight up and that is not what is on the page in front of me but some thumb sticking out to the side, it is not something I can easily live with.  I write more than I type, so there is definitely a problem. 
 
I think a compromise could be found by choosing to show the straight on position in the old fashion, simply explaining that visual confusion for this position makes it easier to show as if it were the halfway of the palm facing of the position of "Each other" above, like 
It's a unique position for the fist handshape sticking straight on, and sticking those two thumbs out for that position just "FEELS" wrong.  All the rest are fine.  Better to show it from the "side" view for ease of reading.  
 
We've had to make compromises before, and with this one handshape in this position, all the other rotations make sense, this one just doesn't.
 
Good example:    Oldest.  This position is confusing to no one.  The thumb sticks straight up, however, take a look at this.  If I show it with the thumb sticking out to the side, the thumb no longer touches the chin, and that is just plain wrong.  
 
You explained it the beginning of your system as the thumb is a straight line, and the little finger is a slant line, as if they were all coming up from the square of the fist.  Maybe this would show it better.
 
The other possibility is to show a unique rotation for straight up or straight down, like the compromise on the crooked index finger as having the finger in the pointed to the center when it just isn't didn't work.  Check my attachment for a possible compromise that to me makes more sense.  Move the thumb to the side and make is straight up.  That way, in signs like not, the thumb still hits the chin, as it is treated like a short index finger.  Don't know if this will be any less confusing, but if the thumb doesn't actually touch the chin for a sign as ubiquitous as NOT in ASL, then there is something wrong.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Charles


Valerie Sutton <sutton at signwriting.org> wrote:
SignWriting List
September 24, 2005

Charles Butler wrote:
> I agree, it does look strange, it is completely counter-intuitive, 
> but I don't know how to fix it. Ugh. If you compare it to the A 
> handshape, it makes sense, but it still doesn't feel right.

But the alternative is the old symbol which apparently was confusing 
for others, so we have to adjust to it. I miss the ability to be able 
to see the side view of the hand, but still have the thumb sticking 
straight up...that is gone now...but it only influences two signs in 
ASL really - the sign for 10 and the sign for NOT...the others are 
ok, although it looks funny when we write the sign for A-OK...You 
know, the sign with the thumb that sticks straight up showing someone 
that that is real good, or super...that sign has lost its 
iconicity...oh well! Val ;-)


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