left, right and together arrows

Valerie Sutton sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG
Wed Mar 15 19:40:42 UTC 2006

SignWriting List
March 15, 2006

Hello Philippe!
Thanks for your questions about the General Arrow...I am sorry if my  
messages about this might have confused you...put the blame on me!

The General Arrow is only used for Overlapping Movement, where the  
right and left paths of movement are directly on top of each  
other...so that they blend together to such a degree that you cannot  
see the left arrow because it is underneath the right arrow...that  
creates a General Arrow

So the General Arrow does not mean BOTH....

It means OVERLAPPING...maybe they don't touch each other while they  
are overlapping, but their paths must be overlapping nonetheless...I  
need to create some really great illustrations for this...smile...

This the way I will be teaching it in the future... I hope to post  
something about this in the next few days...

The sign for POSSIBLE is not Overlapping...they are separate paths  
and need a right and left arrow...

Let me prepare some new lessons about this and then we can have a  
good discussion again about this...smile...

Your work is wonderful, Philippe...I am really amazed how many signs  
you have added to SignPuddle!!

Val ;-)

On Mar 15, 2006, at 11:18 AM, Gallant, Philippe wrote:

> I just created another POSSIBLE sign (possible_3).  Since two hands
> moves at the same time and I just place together arrows even it is not
> touch each other.  We can choose possible and possible_3.  Hope this
> makes sense.
> Philippe "Philip" Gallant
> Cultural Advocacy Health Services Coordinator
> Mercy Medical Center
> Interpretation Services Department
>            VOICE:  (866) 410-5787 ext. 73013
>                TTY:  (515) 643-SIGN (7446)
>                FAX:  (515) 643-2859
> VIDEOPHONE:  pgallant.mercydesmoines.org
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu
> [mailto:owner-sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu] On Behalf Of Valerie  
> Sutton
> Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 9:04 AM
> To: sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu
> Subject: Re: [sw-l] Re: left, right and together arrows
> SignWriting List
> March 10, 2006
> On Mar 10, 2006, at 3:38 AM, Ingvild Roald wrote:
>> For years we in Norway have been using the 'together' arrow when
>> the two hands are moving as a unit, even if they are not touching.
>> This will be when the hands are in certain classifier shapes, and
>> what is 'really' moving is the thing that the hand holds between
>> them. Just general 'paralell' is not enough for our use of the
>> 'both' arrow (sorry Stefan, I know I have written some signs
>> violating this rule, as you have pointed out).
>> Personally, and with at least some deaf Norwegian signers behind
>> me, I feel that the 'togheter' arrow should be used (prioritized  
>> list)
>> 1) when the two hands are painting the same route, contact or no
>> contact
>> 2) when the two hands are moving in contact, even if the routes do
>> not overlap
>> 3) when the two hands are moving as a unit, as in some classifier
>> signs, even if they are not touching
>> 4) when the sign would otherwise be hard to read because of
>> crowding of symbols.
> Hello Ingvild, Stefan, Charles, Philippe and Everyone!
> Thank you for your ideas above. Perhaps for Norwegian Sign Language,
> where you do not have large dictionaries already created, this might
> work fine. This is similar to the way the Danes use the arrows...I
> think...I am not sure...so that Scandinavia would be similar...
> For writing ASL, this would be an enormous change. Hundreds, perhaps
> thousands of signs would have to be changed in all our
> publications...so I am not going to force ourselves to re-write
> everything...if we get new rules, we need to make them a choice and
> not mandatory...We could simply relax the current rules to include
> certain exceptions...and I could teach the old and the new in our  
> books.
> Just your number 1 would change hundreds of signs in ASL...I would
> assume you would write the attached sign with general arrows? What is
> the difference between your number 1 and number 3 above?

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