AW: [sw-l] Re: left, right and together arrows

[Stefan Wöhrmann]

Ingvild wrote : " ... enough for our use of the 'both' arrow (sorry Stefan,
I know I have written some signs violating this rule, as you have pointed
out). Personally, and with at least some deaf Norwegian signers behind me, I
feel that the 'togheter' arrow should be used (prioritized list)" 

Hi Ingvild this is fun ... 

I can see YOU - the Norwegian pioneer - with all her troops following and
claiming that the General Arrowhead should be allowed to be used .... smile
... are you interested in my point of view? So I have to ask for a brake in
order to call my people  being in line with my concept - smile -- 

What a funny idea: .... 

Well - IMHO (just learned his from another discussion smile L.I.F.E) 
there is no need to change anything about the current rules ... 

I rather would put more emphasis on the idea to "keep the system used the
same all over the world"... 

Unfortunately that will not be the case - and you find here and there lots
of individual variations .... I bet that this happens because people
(newcomers) are not aware of the fact that Valerie as the inventor of the
whole IMWA has got a whole bunch of reasons for her decisions to create the
symbols the way they are. 

What is happening - and that seems to be a natural process of a living
writing system - is that people especially if they are writing by hand
develop personal concepts of how to speed up with their own writing. 

I am not convinced that all these personal solutions will automatically fit
into the general set of rules and ideas that are behind the system to keep
it as exact as possible.  Just in contrary - as far as I can say the rule -
one unit - one general arrow - is as simple as brilliant. (And I take the
freedom within my personal documents to vote for this or that deliberate
violation just because it fits better at this specific moment) But in my
worksshops or in my Handbuch I would no change this easy to understand rule
...  

On the other side I can see individual writing styles - people choose to use
this or that symbol (e.g. eye-symbols) with a different understanding, ... 

>From time to time I myself feel astonished to see a symbol - written by
Valerie herself - in a different way - compared to my style of spelling ...
This is always a very welcome opportunity to ask for clarification - and
often I have to understand that I misinterpreted the meaning of the one or
other symbol (like head movements, glance, shoulder (still my problem), some
hand shapes (still my problem) 

Valerie shows an admirable tolerance and interest in discussing any rule and
writing style and new additiv ...hm. So everybody might write just as he/she
feels like? Mh --- I have my doubts. If there is anything that needs to be
explained because of misunderstanding - no problem. But as far as I see -
there is no need to change anything with this general arrow - indicating
that both hands move as a unit. (= hands touch each other) 

Stefan ;-))  




-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: owner-sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu
[mailto:owner-sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu] Im Auftrag von Ingvild Roald
Gesendet: Freitag, 10. März 2006 12:39
An: sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu
Betreff: [sw-l] Re: left, right and together arrows

For years we in Norway have been using the 'together' arrow when the two 
hands are moving as a unit, even if they are not touching. This will be when

the hands are in certain classifier shapes, and what is 'really' moving is 
the thing that the hand holds between them. Just general 'paralell' is not 
enough for our use of the 'both' arrow (sorry Stefan, I know I have written 
some signs violating this rule, as you have pointed out).

Personally, and with at least some deaf Norwegian signers behind me, I feel 
that the 'togheter' arrow should be used (prioritized list)
1) when the two hands are painting the same route, contact or no contact
2) when the two hands are moving in contact, even if the routes do not 
overlap
3) when the two hands are moving as a unit, as in some classifier signs, 
even if they are not touching
4) when the sign would otherwise be hard to read because of crowding of 
symbols.

Ingvild



So now...what to do? I have to ask others about a new rule stating that the
General Arrow could mean PARALLEL PATHS...it is not simple because thousands
of people use SignWriting now and I am trying to keep the system used the
same all over the world as best as is possible...smile...

Keep writing and whichever you choose, just be aware that at the moment
number 2 above is not considered correct within the current
rules...smile...I don't know what else to say!  I will inform you when I get
some feedback from others...it would change a lot of books on SignWriting!
smile...