Charles....Sorting Dictionaries ;-)

Fri Mar 24 16:03:11 UTC 2006

SignWriting List
March 24, 2006

Oh, I couldn't agree more! I too dislike the terminology of GLOSS or  
LABEL or even WORD as you say...that is why I like the design in  
SignPuddle 1.0, when the visitor first enters the Search area, there  
is no terminology to confuse the issue...

So I vote for as little terminology as possible, also because it is a  
huge job to translate all the headers into other spoken languages,  
like Italian, French, German...I went through this with SignBank...I  
translated most of the headers and icons into 15 different spoken  
languages, including Japanese and Arabic...the SW List was a great  
help with those translations...but even when they supplied the  
translations for me, I had to re-do the headers and icons in SignBank  
15 times and it was literally months of work to get it done.

Try to imagine translating the term GLOSS or LABEL into 15 spoken  
languages...smile...when maybe no terminology would work just as well...

Other bi-lingual dictionaries just list one language in the left  
column and the second language in the right column...no need for any  
headers for those columns because it is clear what each column is...

Whatever you guys choose, it will work I am sure...

Smile..

The world is a wonderful and magical place, isn't it? We have so many  
opportunities because of computers!

Val ;-)

------------------------

On Mar 24, 2006, at 3:42 AM, Cherie Wren wrote:

> The term 'word' is misleading because it makes a
> person think the word and the sign are the same thing
> when they are not.  Label is a better term because the
> word chosen -is- a label that means that particular
> sign.  I fight with this in my classes all the time.
> The gloss for a sign is just a way to talk about signs
> in Written English.  The gloss or label doesn't
> necessarily have exactly the same meaning as the sign.
>  The sign often glossed as LATE means 'not yet'...  if
> you are late you have not yet arrived, but the sign
> means the =concept= not the word.  The sign CHAIR
> doesn't mean exactly the same thing in ASL that the
> word means in English...  so thinking that the word
> and the sign are the same is misleading.
>
> cherie
>
> --- Valerie Sutton <sutton at signwriting.org> wrote:
>
>> Hello Charles -
>> SignPuddle 2.0 is a new program with a new design.
>> We are testing it
>> right now, so it is not a finished program. But by
>> testing it, you
>> are helping us make a good program.
>>
>> meanwhile the old 1.0 program that you are used to,
>> is still where it
>> always was! So nothing is lost...
>>
>> When Steve says Labels, he is referring to searching
>> by Words. So you
>> click on the Label button and it lists all the words
>> in the
>> dictionary, or you can type in a word and press
>> Search...do you get
>> nothing when you type and search for a word?
>>
>> By the way, I personally prefer the term Words
>> rather than
>> Labels...how do you feel about that term Labels?
>>
>> You can also press on the Signs button to get a
>> listing of signs...
>>
>>   Val ;-)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mar 23, 2006, at 6:39 PM, Charles Butler wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks for the invite, is there a glitch?  I now
>> can't search by
>>> "words" as the "words" are now "labels" and
>> nothing comes up.  I'm
>>> confused.
>>>
>>> Charles
>>>
>>>
>>> Steve Slevinski <slevin at signpuddle.net> wrote:
>>> Hi Charles,
>>>
>>> SignPuddle 2.0 also has the SignSpelling Sequence
>> available. I've
>>> created a dictionary for you to use and loaded it
>> with 136 signs from
>>> the SignPuddle 1.0 dictionary.
>>>
>>> I'll send you an invitation to become an editor
>> for this dictionary to
>>> you can add the SignSpelling Sequences for the
>> signs I added.
>>> http://www.signpuddle.org/dictionary/sgn-BR
>>>
>>> -Steve
>>>
>>>
>>> Charles Butler wrote:
>>>> Just went through the Guidance on 2004 and it is
>> clear and very well
>>>> matched to what I have. I just need to get my
>> stuff on SignBank.
>>>> !
>>>> Charles
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> */Charles Butler /* wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I've got to go through the signs on the
>> Brazilian SignPuddle and
>>>> ensure that none of them are pure graphics
>> (about 1/3 of them
>>>> are). I wouldn't mind if Steve simply removed
>> the
>>>> graphics/non-SWML them and I started over. I
>> tried to get them
>>>> all at one point but failed miserably in
>> reconstruction. I've got
>>>> to reload a lot of them. I tried, at one point,
>> to ensure that I
>>>> had at least one sign per handshape to make it a
>> good start but
>>>> haven't had the time (working two jobs).
>>>>
>>>> Charles
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> */Valerie Sutton /* wrote:
>>>>
>>>> SignWriting List
>>>> March 21, 2006
>>>>
>>>> Hello Charles and Everyone!
>>>> Many thanks for this question, Charles!
>>>>
>>>> I know you hav! e an excellent dictionary and
>> did so much hard
>>>> work. Everything you! mention below can be done
>> in SignBank. So
>>>> whenever you feel ready, I can teach you how to
>> add your signs
>>>> to SignBank, from SignPuddle. Once you have the
>> signs added to
>>>> SignBank, in the SignBank Editor program you
>> will tell the
>>>> program what symbols within each sign, you want
>> to sort first,
>>>> second or third...that is called a SignSpelling
>>>> Sequence...there is a Spelling column and you
>> tell the program
>>>> which handshape starts the sign etc etc...and
>> everything is
>>>> placed in a sequence as you mention below...the
>> cont! acts,
>>>> the location, the depth, the height...if you
>> feel you need all
>>>> that detail you can place it in there, or you
>> can choose a
>>>> very simple Spelling sequence...then once you
>> have saved all
>>>> the SignSpelling sequence-data in SignBank, you
>> can then sort
>>>> dictionaries by either the Roman alphabet or the
>>>> Sign-Symbol-Sequence...and so you can print
>> vocabulary lists
>>>> ! or complete dictionaries, in a completely
>> bi-lingua! l or
>>>> multi-lingual way...so it is a flexible tool and
>> you tell it
>>>> what you want...
>>>>
>>>> Do you have some signs ready? Do you want to
>> start to add them
>>>> to SignBank now?
>>>>
>>>> Val ;-)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 21, 2006, at 12:53 PM, Charles Butler
>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I asked the same question Steve as I am sorting
>> for a
>>>>> multilingual dictionary in ASL, Libras,
>> English, and Portuguese.
>>>>
>>>> I started with my corpus of 750 signs and began
>> to sort them
>>>> using the Sign Writing for Everyday Use as a
>> guide, and
>>>> Valerie's article as part of the process. In so
>> doing, we
>>>> will need:
>>>>
>>>> 1) A set order of handshapes withi! n the basic
>> 10 groupings.
>>>> 2) A set order of orientations within the basic
>> 6
>>>> 3) A set order of rotations within the basic 8.
>>>> 4) A set order of contacts
>>>> 5) A ! set order of movements
>>>> 6) A set order of spatial locations
>>>> 7) A set order of body contacts
>>>> 8) A set order of facial expressions
>>>>
>>>> And imbedded in the above, what one does with
>> two hands in a
>>>> sign, presumably start with the dominant hand,
>> sort through
>>>> the above, add the second hand, and sort through
>> the abov!
>>>> e. ! I did that with my corpus of 750 and was
>> able to get down
>>>> to granular between the sign "confusao" and
>> "complicado" where
>>>> the only differences are intensity and speed. In
>> my
>>>> dictionary, I placed smooth before quick, but
>> others might do
>>>> differently.
>>>>
>>>> complicadocomplicado confusãoconfusao
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> */Steve Slevinski > >/* wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Val,
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for starting a message on terminology.
>> I'm not
>>>> using the
>>>> terminology correctly, so this is very helpful.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm a bit confused by equating the roman
>> alphabet to
>>>> SignWriting. The
>>>> roman alphabet! is a sequence of ordered
>> symbols.
>>>> SignWriting is a
>>>> system for writing signed languages. I think the
>> roman
>>>> alphabet is
>>>> similar to the IMWA. And I think that
>> SignWriting is
>>>> similar to what is
>>>> taught in English class.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm confused by what SignSpelling actually
>> means. Is
>>>> SignSpelling what
>>>> you use, what you do, or w! hat you get? Is
>> SignSpelling
>>>> for writing or
>>>> sorting? I thought that SignSpelling was a
>> subset of
>>>> SignWriting that
>>>> encompasses how to write sign and how to
>> sequentially list
>>>> the symbols
>>>> in a sign for sorting.
>>>>
>>>> The word spelling has 2 definitions. 1) The act
>> of the
>>>> person who
>>>> spells a word. 2) The way a word is spelled. It
>> seems to
>>>> me that> SignSpelling is the system of rules
>> that a person uses
>>>> while he is
>>>> spelling(1) a sign which results in a
>> spelling(2) of a
>>>> sign. Spelling
>>>> is both his action(1) and his result(2), but he
>> uses the
>>>> rules of
>>>> SignSpelling for guid! ance while he works.
>>>>
>>>> Many definition! s of "spell" mention the
>> sequential order
>>>> of the letters,
>>>> but that is because of cultural bias. The word
>> spell comes
>>>> from older
>>>> words that mean "to talk" or "to relate".
>>>> Middle English /spellen
>>>> /Old French /espeller/
>>>> Old English /spellian/
>>>>
>>>> It is interesting to note that "gospel" is
>> derived from
>>>> "good talk".
>>>>
>>>> If I was! reading a document, I would hope that
>> the words
>>>> (or signs) were
>>>> spelled correctly. With most spoken languages, a
>> word's
>>>> spelling is
>>>> used for sorting because words are spelled
>> sequentially.
>>>> However, the
>>> ! > symbols in a signs do not appear sequentially,
>> but in 2
>>>> dimensional
>>>> space. I consider this 2 dimensional
>> representation of a
>>>> sign to be the
>>>> sign's spelling. If we had a Sign Spelling Bee,
>> the
>>>> contestants would
>>>> watch a person perform a sign and would probably
>> use a
>>>> blackboard to
>>>> write the sign.
>>>>
>>>> But this brings us to the question of how to
>> sort signs in a
>>>> dictionary. We need a way to write the symbols !
>> of a sign
>>>> in a
>>>> sequential order. The SignSpelling Guidelines
>> 2004 is a
>>>> great reference
>>>> for this
>>>>
>> (http://www.signwriting.org/archive/docs2/sw0145-
>>> SignSpelling-2004.pdf).
>>>>
>>>> And that's why I was using the terms spelling
>> and sequence
>>>> when talking
>>>> ab! out a sign. A sign's spelling is what you
>> would find
>>>> in a sign
>>>> language text. A sign's sequence (or sort order)
>> is a list
>>>> of a sign's
>>>> symbols that! can be used for sorting.
>>>>
>>>> -Steve
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Valerie Sutton wrote:
>>>>> SignWriting List
>>>>> March 21, 2006
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear SW List Members!
>>>>> Recently someone asked me to explain
>> SignWriting
>>>> Terminology (the
>>>>> English words I use to describe different
>> aspects of
>>>> SignWriting).
>>>>>
>>>>> So I will create a chart of the terms I use in
>> English.
>>>> I hope we can
>>>>> translate these terms int! o other spoken
>> languages later.
>>>>>
>>>>> Here is a beginning...More will be coming
>>>> later...continued next
>>>>> message...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
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>
>
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