Sign Names in SignWriting ;-)

Tue May 1 20:41:05 UTC 2007

I can understand what Charles was saying. I said that to an english teacher of mine some time ago. She came with a good reply. "There is plenty of room. The only problem is when you want others to understand your writing, that room for variation greatly reduces. So you have to learn how to express your style within that limit of reader's understanding."

Adam

-----Original Message-----
From: "Anne-Claude Prélaz Girod" <acpg at vtxnet.ch>
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 22:26:02 
To:sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu
Subject: Re: [sw-l] Sign Names in SignWriting ;-)

Charles
wow! this message is quite agressive!

I don't understand... 
everyone is free to write in english (or in any other language) making errors if that's what they want  .... 
BUT if you try to write in a correct english... you've got to follow rules...( orthographic rules, grammatical rules, etc...) 

(I'm probably making lots of errors writing this message, and I don't care, because I don't expect anyone to correct me.... because it's not the aim of this message.... hope you get what I mean)... it's not the same when I ask a question on sign notation on this list!!!
I expect people to correct me if I'm making errors... I'm here to learn!

In  her message Val just explained how you're supposed to write this sign name in SignWriting... what's wrong with this??

you can chose to write signs in a wrong mode if you feel that it feels better.... but ... it wil be wrong. If that's the way you want it... FINE!
why being so agressive with people who try to increase their writing skills... and write correctly some difficult signs??

just my 2 cents

Anny

Le 1 mai 07 à 17:56, Charles Butler a écrit :
Where is there room for style and feel?  

>From a feeling point of view, her name sign looks like the K is resting on the arm, and then the J hand feels as if it goes straight down and then turns toward the chest.  

If one were to take the arm away, it is not produced the same way, as that becomes fingerspelling with the J upright and then turning down. 

With the arm, the production changes appearance as a brush of the bottom of the little finger against the arm, which does not feel like PALM Down but simply straight down.  

The exact palm facing may be palm down, but that is not how it "feels".  It "feels" like the K is upright and the J is pointing downward, and it is elegantly written in a shorthand kind of way.  The arrowhead would change to a single line with the arrow moving toward one and up, but the feel is not Parallel to the Arm, but straight down.  

Doesn't the user of the name have the right to put any Style and Feel into how they produce a sign?  One can choose whether thumb or little finger is being moved, why not which orientation is the right "feel" for the sign?

Valerie Sutton <signwriting at MAC.COM: <mailto:signwriting at MAC.COM> > wrote: Stefan is correct, Charles...This sign name for Kelly Jo needs to be 
discussed a little...

I would probably write it this way:

Let's discuss this original writing:

I certainly can see why this was hard to write! and I also understand 
that we need to review the Rotation symbols for everyone's sake...

First look at the I hand...it is in this position...

That is just physically very hard to do!

And the Rotation Symbol ....

This symbols means the forearm is parallel with the Front Wall and 
the thumb rotates back towards the chest:

The way we write the letter KJ without the arm is this way:

The J hand starts with the finger up, and then the arm moves to be 
parallel with the Floor and the Rotation itself is down and around...

So this is one suggestion:

There are other ways too I am sure...we just need to find a better 
way with a correct Rotation Symbol and Palm Facing...

Val ;-)

--------

On May 1, 2007, at 5:48 AM, Charles Butler wrote:

> I find this easy to read, the brush contact is the equivalent of a 
> contact star, and the movement is placed for reading convenience 
> below the arm line. That's how I would write an ASL "J" that 
> brushed the arm, else the movement would put the handshape too far 
> visually from the arm.
>
> Stefan Wöhrmann wrote:
> Hi Kelly,
>
> well - can you describe how to sign your signname?
>
> <463177574000000>
>
> For some reason I do not know.
>
> First part no problem K-hand touches left lower arm ...
>
> your rotation arrow describes a movement of the right thumb, right 
> lower arm above or below the I-hand ? Now brush contact of the 
> little finger – lower arm above the hand ? hm --
>
>
> Stefan ;-)
>
>
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: owner-sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu [mailto:owner-sw-: <mailto:owner-sw->  
> l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu: <mailto:l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu> ] Im Auftrag von K.J. Boal
> Gesendet: Dienstag, 1. Mai 2007 03:20
> An: sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu: <mailto:sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu> 
> Betreff: RE: AW: [sw-l] Sign Names in SignWriting ;-)
>
> Mine looks right!
> KJ
>
>
> >From: "Stefan Wöhrmann"
> >Reply-To: sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu: <mailto:sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu> 
> >To: sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu: <mailto:sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu> 
> >Subject: AW: [sw-l] Sign Names in SignWriting ;-)
> >Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 00:19:09 +0200
> >
> >OK - attached you find the first snapshot of a table showing only 
> the names
> >of the participants and their signnames - the way I understood 
> them, or got
> >them ... ?
> >
> >If everything is ok - if there is no spelling problem I will go 
> forward to
> >create a set of TT-Font symbols of these
> >
> >Next message will show the second part of the group
> >
> >(according the rule - one attachment with one message)
> >
> >Stefan ;-)
> >
> >-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> >Von: owner-sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu: <mailto:owner-sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu> 
> >[mailto:owner-sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu: <mailto:owner-sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu> ] Im Auftrag von 
> Valerie Sutton
> >Gesendet: Montag, 30. April 2007 23:41
> >An: sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu: <mailto:sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu> 
> >Betreff: [sw-l] Sign Names in SignWriting ;-)
> >
> >SignWriting List
> >April 30, 2007
> >
> >Stefan -
> >Can you show us the sign names that you do have written already, and
> >post them to the List? Then we all can have fun looking at them and
> >checking them ;-)
> >
> >So go right ahead and post them to the List and then we can discuss
> >reading everyone's names together to see if we understand the
> >SignWriting...
> >
> >Thanks for doing this, Stefan...
> >
> >Val ;-)
> >
> >----------
> >
> >
> >On Apr 30, 2007, at 1:45 PM, Stefan Wöhrmann wrote:
> >
> > > Hello Jonathan,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > thanks for your kind words ...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > well I finished a great table of all the people who showed 
> interest
> > > in the handwriting course. – smile –
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > What is missing that we started to write our signnames by hand. My
> > > idea has been to offer to you a TT Font showing your handwriting
> > > and the computerprogram – spelling as you can get with 
> SignPuddle –
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Unfortunately we did never come so far to discuss our handwriting
> > > of our signnames. Since it takes me quite a time to create the TT-
> > > Font I really would prefer to do this job on a basis that the
> > > spelling of the signnames are checked by Valerie –
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > What do you think ?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Nice to read that you are still interested in this job which
> > > already took quite a portion of time and concentration – smile
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > All the best
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Stefan ;-)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Von: owner-sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu [mailto:owner-sw-: <mailto:owner-sw-> 
> > > l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu: <mailto:l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu> ] Im Auftrag von Jonathan
> > > Gesendet: Montag, 30. April 2007 21:07
> > > An: sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu: <mailto:sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu> 
> > > Betreff: [sw-l] Welcome back Stefan
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Welcome back Stefan!!!
> > >
> > > P.S. Did you finish the Sign names fonts you were working on? Or
> > > did that get put on the back burner now that we aren't currently
> > > any lessons on the list?
> > >
> > > Jonathan
> > >
> > > Stefan Wöhrmann wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Valerie, Cherie and listmembers –
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > well I am back online – smile –
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > You folks have been so incredible active! Too many messages – so
> > > that I will need some time to catch up with what is discussed ...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Looking at your video Cherie – I would write it this way
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > All the best
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Stefan
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Von: owner-sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu [mailto:owner-sw-: <mailto:owner-sw-> 
> > > l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu: <mailto:l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu> ] Im Auftrag von Cherie Wren
> > > Gesendet: Samstag, 28. April 2007 16:52
> > > An: sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu: <mailto:sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu> 
> > > Betreff: Re: [sw-l] Shurley 4
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I always have troubles with the rotations... that is my signing,
> > > not a transcription. The two 'baby x's facing each other, then 
> the
> > > right hand twists down twice and the left hand twists up twice
> > > while the palms continue to face each other-- best way I can
> > > describe it in words. Here is a clip.
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message ----
> > > From: "adam at frostvillage.com: <mailto:adam at frostvillage.com> " 
> > > To: sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu: <mailto:sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu> 
> > > Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2007 1:05:09 AM
> > > Subject: RE: [sw-l] Shurley 4
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Cherie,
> > >
> > > I was just reading your jingle. Very interesting. :-) Very well
> > > written too. They only sign that I had a problem with was (I am
> > > guessing) modify. The way that it was written is the same movement
> > > that would be for a vertical "dead" or "opening the right door
> > > while closing the left door." I took me a few tries of signing it
> > > to see what you were saying. I think that the movement for modify
> > > (at least the way I sign it) is the same as signing class except
> > > the left hand goes the opposite way. I don't know if I am right in
> > > my movement writing, but I was thinking that the movement was
> > > better written this way. But if you are transcribing and the 
> person
> > > signed it the way I mentioned before, then keep it. :-)
> > >
> > > Adam
> > >
> > > PS I'll try to get a clip of my signing the two movements as a
> > > picture is worth a thousand words.
> > >
> > > Load message into SignText
> > >
> > > Courtesy of SignBank.org
> > >
> > > 337e55242c3367ad66f00b5c9bd745bb = 
> 337e55242c3367ad66f00b5c9bd745bb
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
> > > Check out new cars at Yahoo! Autos.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Jonathan & Yolaine Duncan
> > > 8-) & ;-)
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >Val ;-)
> >
> >
> >Valerie Sutton
> >Sutton at SignWriting.org: <mailto:Sutton at SignWriting.org> 
> >
> >1. SignWriting
> >Read & Write Sign Languages
> >http://www.SignWriting.org: <http://www.SignWriting.org> 
> >
> >2. SignBank
> >Create Sign Language Databases
> >http://www.SignBank.org: <http://www.SignBank.org> 
> >
> >3. SignPuddle
> >Online Sign Language Community
> >http://www.SignBank.org/signpuddle: <http://www.SignBank.org/signpuddle> 
> >
> >4. SignWriting List
> >Technical Support: Ask questions to the List
> >http://www.SignWriting.org/forums/swlist: <http://www.SignWriting.org/forums/swlist> 
> >
> >5. DanceWriting
> >Read & Write Dance Movement
> >http://www.DanceWriting.org: <http://www.DanceWriting.org> 
> >
> >6. MovementWriting
> >Read & Write All Body Movement
> >http://www.MovementWriting.org: <http://www.MovementWriting.org> 
> >
> >7. SymbolBank
> >International Movement Writing Alphabet
> >http://www.MovementWriting.org/symbolbank: <http://www.MovementWriting.org/symbolbank> 
> >
> >8. Non-profit Organization
> >Center for Sutton Movement Writing
> >http://www.SignWriting.org/forums/sponsors: <http://www.SignWriting.org/forums/sponsors> 
> >
> >SignWriting Literature Project
> >The DAC, Deaf Action Committee
> >Center For Sutton Movement Writing
> >an educational nonprofit organization
> >P.O. Box 517, La Jolla, CA, 92038, USA
> >tel 858-456-0098 fax 858-456-0020
> >D-Link Videophone: 66.27.57.178
> >Skype Name: valeriesutton
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> ><< tableofparticipantshandwritingcoursenamesandsignnames1.gif >>
>
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Anne-Claude Prélaz Girod
ruelle des chambres chaudes 1
1271 Givrins
Tel ++41/22.362.52.37
Fax ++41/22.362.52.66
mail: acpg at vtxnet.ch: <mailto:acpg at vtxnet.ch> 