[sw-l] Sign Spelling Syllables question

Thu May 15 19:51:18 UTC 2008

Thanks you Charles, it confirms what I read in the Signwriting Web site...
I want to be sure of that!
Thanks a lot,
Hasna

Charles Butler <chazzer3332000 at yahoo.com> a écrit : The sign spelling is set by the creator of the sign and it is not currently uniform.  It is often in order of what the signer considers the most important element, sometimes very strictly, by hand and location, and movement, or any other of several systems.  It is currently a work in progress.   

The encoding that the programmer uses to display any sign is uniform and could be used to send some representation to you.  I think that it would be possible, Valerie, for Hasna to work with Mr. Theissen or other programmers of Sign Bank to do a statistical analysis.  

Charles

Hasna Hocini <h_hocini at yahoo.fr> wrote: Hi Charles, Hi Valerie,
Thank you very much. 
I understand all what you said. Let me please tell you again the problem but using other words...
Imagine a translation  system where :
1- you introduce your words using SignWriting notation, which means writing in the 2-dimentional format.
2- Then  an internal program (not the user) will translate that to signspelling sequence (which will be an internal representation of the 2-dimensional SignWriting sign).
-This sign spelling sequence for technical reasons will be more suitable to use in statistical translation.- 
3- The system will finally deliver a sentence (in English for example).

So, what I need to know please is:
For a SignWriting sign, is there many signspellings sequences ? or just one?
in other words, if I ask two people to give me the signspelling of the same sign, can they give me different signspellings?

Sorry if I'm asking too much... Thanks so much for your  availability...

Hasna

Charles Butler <chazzer3332000 at yahoo.com> a écrit : Dear Hasna,

I would have to underline the differences between, for example, Stokoe notation, which is based on single-string notation and Sign Writing which is based on x,y notation.  Sign Writing cannot be reduced to single-string notation because its very nature is 2-dimensional, not one-dimensional. 

Stokoe deliberately made his writing from symbols that can be found on a keyboard, in a fixed order, but for that reason it is not iconographic, it is not a sign-recognition system, but an encoding.

I can show the sign "THANK YOU" as a string of symbols that translates as "right flat hand touches mouth and then moves out pronately forward from the speaker" but with SW it's quick, simple, and must less  complicated.  

If you are to do your translation system, you will need to find a way to code "as a cluster" the whole graphic which is a complete sign, not its  components.

The sign-spelling will help you find which handshapes, or  which movements, are being used, but not their "whole cluster" which is a sign, in which all parts of the sign are being articulated simultaneously. 

Charles

Valerie Sutton <sutton at signwriting.org> wrote: SignWriting ListMay 15, 2008

Hello Hasna and Charles -
Many thanks for your input, Charles...we are thinking the same ;-)

Hasna - regarding programming versus the "real world of signing"...there is no question they are two different worlds, and of course it is hard to imagine translating between a spoken  language like French or English, which uses the Roman alphabet that is written horizontally in a string from left to right, and compare that with a writing system like  SignWriting, that is written in visual clusters...NOT written in a string...we do  not write like the SignSpellings look...one symbol after the other...we write in two-dimensional relationships because those relationships, of the hands under the head, and so forth...those clusters of symbols in proper alignment with the human body...those "symbol relationships" hold meaning to us in a way that the symbols from left to right could never do...

For example, if a sign is done over the head, it can mean one thing, and if the sign is produced under the head, it could mean something else, so the visual placement is important for meaning.

So just placing symbols in a string doesn't give you the feeling or the meaning of signs...

That is the  very reason why SignWriting works...because we don't write "symbols in a line in sequence"...

I realize this is no help to your project, and we  can continue discussing this...I can continue the discussion later tomorrow as I  have appointments all day today...

Val ;-)

--------

Hasna Hocini wrote:
Thank you very much for your answers and interest to help me...
We are working on statistical translation. 
The problem now is to find a compact representation  of signs, because if we use the two dimensional representations of signs (As it is in SWML: symbol code, position x,y ), it will not work and the results of our statistical translation system will not be satisfying.
So, we'll use the SignSpelling representation. If we can have the syllables also, It will improve the codification. We will have for example for the second syllable (Mvt  syllable) less signs so we will not need to codify that on 13 positions as it is in SSS-2004 but two positions will be enough (177 movements symbols -> using the  alphabet to codify them, two positions it will enough 26*26 =676).
Do you think I  can do it in a different way?
Thanks a lot,
Hasna

--------------

Charles Butler <chazzer3332000 at yahoo.com> a écrit : I would agree.  Think of a sign as a whole concept, like Chinese, you are not translating stroke for stroke, you are translating a whole sign into a whole concept.  

The sign spelling helps one look up two signs in a dictionary by how they are produced, not by their meaning, just like ANGRY and APPLE can be looked up in the dictionary by spelling, not by meaning.  

In  ASL, the ANGRY hand would be a 5-claw hand at the chest, APPLE would be a A-hand at the corner of the mouth.  They would sort by their handshapes first, but that  has nothing to do with their meaning.

Valerie Sutton <sutton at signwriting.org> wrote: SignWriting List
May 15, 2008

Hasna Hocini wrote:
> 1- If I ask two signers to sign the word "Interesting". Will they do  
> it the same way?
> What are the differences  they will introduce ?

Hello Hasna and everyone -

Your work with translation from signwritten signs, into spoken  
language, is a big job but a fascinating subject...thank you for  
sharing your project with us ;-)

1. There are several signs for the concept of INTERESTING, in American  
Sign Language...Just like in other  spoken languages, there are  
oftentimes several words you could use for one concept...

Here are three writings of the sign for INTERESTING in the ASL   
SignPuddle Dictionary, to give you an example....and there may be more   
variations and signs that could be equivalent as well...

The important thing to realize is that this has nothing to do with  
syllables. I cannot see how syllables have anything to do with  
translation, since the "whole word" or "whole sign" carries the  
meanings...the syllables do not have meanings... In this attached  
diagram, you can see the SignSpellings to the  right of the signs (the  
tiny grey symbols in little boxes)...those are only for sorting the  
dictionary by symbols and not the way we actually write the  
signs...The fact that the SignSpellings can be divided into syllables  
is not important for sorting dictionaries...

Looking at the three attached signs...

1. two-handed  sign
2. same sign as 1, but one-handed
3. different sign that can also mean  fascinating

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Val ;-)

Valerie Sutton
Sutton at SignWriting.org

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