How many symbols do we use in SignWriting? Part 1

Tue Aug 18 16:49:11 UTC 2009

SignWriting List
August 18, 2009

Thank you, Charles, for understanding what I will be leading to! And  
you obviously know how to search for symbols, including the BaseSymbol  
number...

Using the BaseSymbol number for one sign language, can actually be a  
smaller number, because one sign language uses fewer handshapes, but  
the whole ISWA does have larger numbers of BaseSymbols because we are  
trying to write so many sign languages around the world...

For Maria's sake, for her dissertation, I need to list all the places  
that people can search, for such numbers, with all the links, and I  
will be doing that...There are other ways to determine exact symbol- 
numbers as well, so this will be fun!

I just helped my mother get breakfast, and now I am going to try to  
eat something myself, and I will be back -

Val ;-)

------

On Aug 18, 2009, at 9:29 AM, Charles Butler wrote:

> Base Symbols - 596 - that seems accurate as a ballpark.  Having  
> opened up the BaseSymbol file, I see that you then include all  
> reflections and rotations as distinct .jpgs.
>
> Once you take 26 small letters, 26 large letters, 30 numbers, 30  
> punctuation marks, and a few extras thrown in, you get about 120  
> English symbols..  We use them, but we don't think about them.  And  
> yet, we are taught them by rote in our classes, and people forget  
> how long it takes to learn English phonics.
>
> Sign Writing, by contrast, can be taught, to one who knows a sign  
> language, enough to begin to puzzle out signs, in about 10 minutes.   
> You can't beat that by any stretch of the imagination.
>
>
> --- On Tue, 8/18/09, SignWriting <signwriting at mac.com> wrote:
>
> From: SignWriting <signwriting at mac.com>
> Subject: Re: [sw-l] How many symbols do we use in SignWriting? Part 1
> To: "SignWriting List" <sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu>
> Cc: "MARIA AZZOPARDI" <maria.azzopardi at um.edu.mt>
> Date: Tuesday, August 18, 2009, 12:16 PM
>
> SignWriting List
> August 18, 2009
>
> Hello Maria and Charles!
> Thank you for your messages. I can see you are an excellent teacher,  
> Charles. Everyone has their own style of teaching. So that is fine!
>
> I am just sharing how I start the explanation about numbers of  
> symbols...
>
> I have not finished my explanation yet...I will now write Part 2 of  
> my explanation, but it may take another hour, so I ask for your  
> patience...
>
> In Part 1 I explained my short answer, and obviously people  
> immediately ask me about the categories and I explain them...when I  
> personally teach people about things, it takes long paragraphs of  
> explanation....I was just giving you a summary of how I personally  
> start the topic of symbols...for people who have never heard of  
> SignWriting before...I oftentimes then discuss other writing system  
> that are not like the Roman alphabet....for example although I don't  
> know Chinese, I would ask someone in the audience or the class if  
> they know how many symbols are in Chinese? and they oftentimes would  
> not know but people enjoy these conversations...and breaking the  
> symbols down into categories is a good way to start a conversation...!
>
> Without the 28 category explanation, it is hard for people to grasp  
> how people learn SignWriting. They are frightened that they have to  
> "memorize" 25,000 symbols or whatever the large number is...and so I  
> also explain that the symbols are very visual, and do not require  
> the same kind of memorization that more abstract symbols do...like  
> the facial expressions, for example, are symbols, but many of them  
> are recognizable and do not require memorization.
>
> You are most welcome to continue to teach your way....we all have  
> our right to teach as we wish!
>
> How did you come to the conclusion that there are 25,000 symbols?  
> How do you define the term "symbol"?... and which sign language are  
> you referring to? I am writing Part 2 now, and I explain how I  
> personally break the symbols down into something I call  
> "BaseSymbols"...so that is coming. I need to get a cup of coffee and  
> relax a little, and I will then write and post Part 2...
>
> Thanks for your messages!
>
> Val ;-)
>
> --------
>
>
>
>
> On Aug 18, 2009, at 8:58 AM, Charles Butler wrote:
>
> > 10 groups of handshapes, knocking down to 7 groups of symbols, by  
> category.
> >
> > And yet, that is misleading Valerie.  They asked "how many symbols  
> do we use" not "how many categories do we use".  You are comparing  
> apples to oranges to bypass the question.
> >
> > The question is -- flat out -- how many symbols do you use in Sign  
> Writing.  That is distinct symbols, not rotations, not reflections.
> >
> > She asked a question, and you give her a misleading answer.
> >
> > English uses 26 letters, plus 10 number symbols, plus about 30  
> symbols on the keyboard that are used for specialized diacritics.   
> Cyrillic uses about 35 letters.  Cherokee is a syllabary with over  
> 60, Chinese has more than 8,000 distinct characters.
> >
> > The count of 25,000 is approximately accurate as far as every  
> symbol in the ISWA corpus including rotations and reflections.
> >
> > I don't like bypassed answers, answer her question, how many  
> distinct symbols are there in ISWA?
> >
> > Charles
> >
> >
> >
> > --- On Tue, 8/18/09, Valerie Sutton <sutton at signwriting.org> wrote:
> >
> > From: Valerie Sutton <sutton at signwriting.org>
> > Subject: Re: [sw-l] How many symbols do we use in SignWriting?  
> Part 1
> > To: "SignWriting List" <sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu>
> > Cc: "MARIA AZZOPARDI" <maria.azzopardi at um.edu.mt>
> > Date: Tuesday, August 18, 2009, 11:44 AM
> >
> > SignWriting List
> > August 18, 2009
> >
> > On Aug 18, 2009, at 8:09 AM, Valerie Sutton wrote:
> > > First, in Part 1, I will discuss how I personally answer the  
> question, when I am teaching people who are new to SignWriting and  
> the ISWA...
> >
> > Part 1...How do I answer the question: "How many symbols do we  
> write with, in SignWriting?".
> >
> > My short answer:
> > We SPELL signs with 28 groups of symbols. There are 10 groups of  
> handshapes, 10 groups of movement symbols, 5 groups for the face and  
> head, and 3 groups for torso, body and timing. When we write  
> sentences and literature, we add another group of punctuation symbols.
> >
> > So when people say that English spells with 26 letters, I say:
> >
> > "SignWriting spells with 28 groups of symbols."
> >
> >
> > Another longer answer:
> >
> > 1.. The International SignWriting Alphabet (the ISWA) has 7  
> categories of symbols:
> >
> > ISWA 2008
> > Category 1: Hands
> > Category 2: Movement
> > Category 3: Face Head
> > Category 4: Body
> > Category 5: Dynamics
> > Category 6: Punctuation
> > Category 7: Advanced Sorting (for computer programming of sorting)
> >
> > 2. We SPELL individual signs with 5 categories:
> >
> > Category 1: Hands
> > Category 2: Movement
> > Category 3: Face Head
> > Category 4: Body
> > Category 5: Dynamics
> >
> > 3. We write SENTENCES with added Punctuation, so that makes 6  
> categories:
> >
> > Category 1: Hands
> > Category 2: Movement
> > Category 3: Face Head
> > Category 4: Body
> > Category 5: Dynamics
> > Category 6: Punctuation
> >
> > 4. We NEVER write with Category 7. It is only for computer  
> programming of dictionary-sorting.
> >
> >
> >
> > ____________________________________________
> >
> > SW-L SignWriting List
> >
> > Post Message
> > SW-L at majordomo.valenciacc.edu
> >
> > List Archives and Help
> > http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/
> >
> > Change Email Settings
> > http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/sw-l
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ____________________________________________
> >
> > SW-L SignWriting List
> >
> > Post Message
> > SW-L at majordomo.valenciacc.edu
> >
> > List Archives and Help
> > http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/
> >
> > Change Email Settings
> > http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/sw-l
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________
>
> SW-L SignWriting List
>
> Post Message
> SW-L at majordomo.valenciacc..edu
>
> List Archives and Help
> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/
>
> Change Email Settings
> http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/sw-l
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________
>
> SW-L SignWriting List
>
> Post Message
> SW-L at majordomo.valenciacc.edu
>
> List Archives and Help
> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/
>
> Change Email Settings
> http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/sw-l

____________________________________________

SW-L SignWriting List

Post Message
SW-L at majordomo.valenciacc.edu

List Archives and Help
http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/

Change Email Settings
http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/sw-l