Ordering Signs

Wed Dec 2 15:09:57 UTC 2009

Wouldn't a computer-based approach be more useful for this? Rather than
having students (of whatever age) look through a book that is based on some
arbitrary sequencing method. They can drill-down through the material much
quicker that way.

On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 2:27 AM, Gagnon et Thibeault <atg at videotron.ca>wrote:

>  *Hi Trevor and everyone,*
> **
> *      You are right that handshape would be more important than
> location.  I thought that Charles wanted to discuss about a "specific head".
> (he wrote: The first-four entries seem to be by head, is that intentional?)
> I showed him the attached specific head orders.  I answered him: you are
> right.  However, I misunderstood.*
> **
> *      I would like to inform you that it is not easy to find the primary
> handshape.  Deaf children couldn't remember everything about the primary
> handshape 1- 10.  For example, in what group of the primary handshape do you
> find IDEA (ASL)?  Deaf children had to check each primary handshape 1, 2, 3,
> 4, 5 and 6. They found group 6.  They didn't like to look for IDEA for a
> long time.  I tried to help them find the primary handshape quickly on the
> first front page in the dictionary.  You will see the attached group 1-6.
>   They were happy to look at the first front page. They quickly  went to
> Group 6 "thumb & small finger". *
> **
> *      Regards,*
> **
> *      André*
>
>  ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Trevor Jenkins <bslwannabe at gmail.com>
> *To:* SignWriting List <sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu>
>   *Sent:* Tuesday, December 01, 2009 1:03 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [sw-l] Ordering Signs
>
> Isn't the primacy of location an influence taken from Stokoe notation with
> the region of the signing space being location signified first before
> hand-shape, movement or orientation. Because of "degrees of meaning" it is
> permissible to retain the meaning of a sign while placing it elsewhere in
> the signing space. So like you, Charles, I'd go with handshape as the
> primary indexer for a dictionary. Handshape would be *more* important than
> location. I'd likent location as the primary indexer as equivalent to
> organising an English dictionary by upper case letters first then lower
> case.
>
> On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 5:10 PM, Charles Butler <chazzer3332000 at yahoo.com>wrote:
>
>>  I am still confused.  I understand your going with Location first, I
>> tend to go with handshape first, which would put anything with an index
>> finger together, with neutral space first, then starting from the head down,
>> that's the only apparent difference.  Neutral or hand contact seems to
>> happen much more in ASL than LSQ.
>>
>> Charles
>>
>>
>>  ------------------------------
>> *From:* Gagnon et Thibeault <atg at videotron.ca>
>>
>> *To:* SignWriting List <sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu>
>> *Sent:* Tue, December 1, 2009 11:47:27 AM
>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [sw-l] Ordering Signs
>>
>> 
>>  *Hi Charles and everyone,*
>> **
>> *    Charles, you are right.  You will see the attached "head" orders.*
>> **
>> *    Regards,*
>> **
>> *    André*
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> *From:* Charles Butler <chazzer3332000 at yahoo.com>
>> *To:* SignWriting List <sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu>
>> *Sent:* Monday, November 30, 2009 1:02 PM
>> *Subject:* Re: [sw-l] Ordering Signs
>> ****
>>  I'm not sure how to read your dictionary, Andre,
>>
>> The first four entries seem to be by head.  Is that intentional?  I was
>> trying to follow your logic and compare it to what I had proposed and using
>> handshape as the first entry, and then location, the first four signs would
>> follow differently.  The way you placed the BSL sign language I agree with,
>> I'm just trying to understand your system.
>>
>> Charles Butler
>>
>>
>>  ------------------------------
>> *From:* Valerie Sutton <sutton at signwriting.org>
>> *To:* SignWriting List <sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu>
>> *Sent:* Mon, November 30, 2009 12:23:21 PM
>> *Subject:* Re: [sw-l] Ordering Signs
>>
>> SignWriting List
>> November 30, 2009
>>
>> Hello Andre!
>> I feel soooo happy to receive this message from you. What a remarkable
>> message this is. Very few people in the history of SignWriting can provide
>> information on testing how Deaf children look up signs, by Sign Symbols, in
>> dictionaries written in SignWriting. That is because very few people have
>> classrooms of Deaf children fluent in SignWriting, and your classroom in
>> French-Canada, using LSQ, is one of those historic places, that we can point
>> to, when discussing the theories on sign-symbol-searches.
>>
>> Of course there are classrooms around the world using SignWriting...Stefan
>> Woehrmann's classroom in Germany, for example, and classrooms in Nicaragua
>> and Belgium and Brazil and other countries...and they are all doing
>> wonderful work...
>>
>> Have any other teachers tested how Deaf children look up signs in
>> dictionaries without using any spoken language? Just searching for signs
>> sorted by Sign-Symbol-Sequence (alphabetical order of SignWriting symbols)?
>> If so, please tell us how it worked for your students...
>>
>> I am hoping to start, at the end of 2010, to improve our printed
>> dictionaries...and then distribute the printed dictionaries to groups of
>> signers to see if they can find signs in those printed dictionaries, sorted
>> by Sign-Symbols...but that project hasn't started yet...
>>
>> I can see, Andre, that you have already started such a project and I am
>> very interested to read your results...I will save this message to refer to
>> later...and THANK YOU for sharing with us...
>>
>> What excites me the most, is that you have found that it is beneficial for
>> your Deaf students, to use SignWriting in dictionaries. That is meaningful,
>> to know that SignWriting is making a difference in people's lives...If it
>> can help some Deaf children to learn how to use dictionaries, that is
>> wonderful.
>>
>> Out of the 13 different handshapes listed in Group 1 of the ISWA, LSQ
>> (Quebec Sign Language) only uses 5 out of the 13 handshapes...The
>> International SignWriting Alphabet was never meant to be used in its
>> entirety by all sign languages...We all assume that each sign language will
>> only use some of the symbols in the ISWA, just as the full IPA is not used
>> to write this message in English...
>>
>> So I look forward to learning more about your project, Andre -
>>
>> Thanks again for your sharing with us -
>>
>> Val ;-)
>>
>> --------------------
>>
>> On Nov 29, 2009, at 3:50 AM, Gagnon et Thibeault wrote:
>>
>> > Hi Trevor, Charles, Gerard, Christophe, and everyone
>> >
>> >    A Deaf teacher and I have been working on a Sign Writing LSQ (a
>> written LSQ) dictionary for one month now.  The Deaf teacher has been
>> testing if Deaf children are able to look up SW orders without alphabetic
>> orders in the dictionary.
>> >
>> >    It seems that it works well because Deaf children who have
>> difficulties to read a written French can directly find a written LSQ to
>> help them find a French word in the dictionary.
>> >
>> >    Charles mentioned that handshape orders are “index finger”, “index &
>> middle finger”, “index finger, middle, & thumb”, “four fingers”, “four
>> fingers & thumb”, “thumb & small finger”, “thumb & ring finger”, “thumb &
>> index finger”, and “thumb & fist”.  I focus on “Index Finger”. You will see
>> the attached ISWA.  The Index Finger has 13 different handshapes from ISWA
>> in the world. However, the Index Finger of the LSQ has only 5 different
>> handshapes.
>> >
>> >    In addition, you will see the attached location orders.  Location
>> orders have 5 parts: 1) head & neck, 2) trunk & leg, 3) arm, 4) hand, 5)
>> neutral space.  If you look up a written LSQ in the dictionary, you must
>> think from the high level of location to the low level of location. Contact
>> symbols which include touch, hit, rub and so forth interact with a specific
>> area of the body.  If the hand or the finger touches the nose, you look up
>> quickly a head location order.  For example, if a signer produces BELIEVE
>> (ASL), the index finger touches the middle front: you look up a “head”
>> location order.  Another example, if the signer produces SHOW (ASL), the
>> index finger of the right hand touches the palm of the left hand. You look
>> up a hand location order.  If the signer produces ONE (ASL), the index
>> finger is the  front of the shoulder without contact symbols.  You look up a
>> last (neutral space) location order.
>> >
>> >    You will see the attached SW orders.  You will find a first page.
>> You look up index finger and location orders. EYE (LSQ) is a highest level
>> of the head than higher level of the head for TOOTH (LSQ) than a high level
>> of the head for CANDY (LSQ) than a low level of the head for TO SAY (LSQ).
>> >
>> >    Trevor, if the signer who uses a British manual alphabet produces “A”
>> (BSL), the index finger of the right hand touches the thumb of the left hand
>> (handshape 5).  You look up an index finger order and a hand location order
>> in the BSL dictionary.  If the signer produces “I” (BSL), the index finger
>> of the right hand touches the tip of the middle finger of the left hand
>> (handshape  5).  You look up an index finger order and a hand location
>> order. You will see the attached SW orders (page 21).
>> >
>> >    We will adjust and test the LSQ dictionary.  We are still working on
>> it.  If Trevor, Charles or everyone takes a (SW) workshop or attends a (SW)
>> conference, we will be happy to teach him/her how to look up quickly your
>> own sign language in the dictionary.
>> >
>> >    Best regards,
>> >
>> >    André
>> >
>> >
>>
>>  ------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
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>
>
>
> --
> Regards, Trevor.
>
> <>< Re: deemed!
>
> ------------------------------
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-- 
Regards, Trevor.

<>< Re: deemed!
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