Ordering Signs
Charles Butler
chazzer3332000 at YAHOO.COM
Wed Dec 2 15:19:10 UTC 2009
Trevor,
I feel that the whole point of the exercise is to see how "printed" matter is organized. How can a dictionary best be printed and bound with fixed parameters. If the power goes down, if you are away from the grid, and don't have access to SignBank you are working with the printed page.
The computer-based approach assumes computers, and that won't work in Malawi, Ethiopia, or even in every classroom in America. You don't demand that kind of search when grading schoolchildren on alphabetization. You have children sitting at desks or moving around signs using their hands, not head nods or a mouse.
We have the luxury of computers, I don't assume computers are the only communication method for teaching literacy.
Charles
________________________________
From: Trevor Jenkins <bslwannabe at gmail.com>
To: SignWriting List <sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu>
Sent: Wed, December 2, 2009 10:09:57 AM
Subject: Re: [sw-l] Ordering Signs
Wouldn't a computer-based approach be more useful for this? Rather than having students (of whatever age) look through a book that is based on some arbitrary sequencing method. They can drill-down through the material much quicker that way.
On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 2:27 AM, Gagnon et Thibeault <atg at videotron.ca> wrote:
Hi Trevor and everyone,
>
> You are right that handshape would be more important than location. I thought that Charles wanted to discuss about a "specific head". (he wrote: The first-four entries seem to be by head, is that intentional?) I showed him the attached specific head orders. I answered him: you are right. However, I misunderstood.
>
> I would like to inform you that it is not easy to find the primary handshape. Deaf children couldn't remember everything about the primary handshape 1- 10. For example, in what group of the primary handshape do you find IDEA (ASL)? Deaf children had to check each primary handshape 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6. They found group 6. They didn't like to look for IDEA for a long time. I tried to help them find the primary handshape quickly on the first front page in the dictionary. You will see the attached group 1-6.
>> They were happy to look at the first front page. They quickly went to Group 6 "thumb & small finger".
>
> Regards,
>
> André
>----- Original Message -----
>>From: Trevor Jenkins
>>To: SignWriting List
>>Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 1:03 PM
>>Subject: Re: [sw-l] Ordering Signs
>>
>>Isn't the primacy of location an influence taken from Stokoe notation with the region of the signing space being location signified first before hand-shape, movement or orientation. Because of "degrees of meaning" it is permissible to retain the meaning of a sign while placing it elsewhere in the signing space. So like you, Charles, I'd go with handshape as the primary indexer for a dictionary. Handshape would be more important than location. I'd likent location as the primary indexer as equivalent to organising an English dictionary by upper case letters first then lower case.
>>
>>
>>On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 5:10 PM, Charles Butler <chazzer3332000 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>I am still confused. I understand your going with Location first, I tend to go with handshape first, which would put anything with an index finger together, with neutral space first, then starting from the head down, that's the only apparent difference. Neutral or hand contact seems to happen much more in ASL than LSQ.
>>>
>>>Charles
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
________________________________
From: Gagnon et Thibeault <atg at videotron.ca>
>>>
>>>
>>>To: SignWriting List <sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu>
>>>Sent: Tue, December 1, 2009 11:47:27 AM
>>>
>>>
>>>Subject: Re: [sw-l] Ordering Signs
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Hi Charles and everyone,
>>>
>>> Charles, you are right. You will see the attached "head" orders.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> André
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>From: Charles Butler
>>>>To: SignWriting List
>>>>Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 1:02 PM
>>>>Subject: Re: [sw-l] Ordering Signs
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I'm not sure how to read your dictionary, Andre,
>>>>
>>>>The first four entries seem to be by head. Is that intentional? I was trying to follow your logic and compare it to what I had proposed and using handshape as the first entry, and then location, the first four signs would follow differently. The way you placed the BSL sign language I agree with, I'm just trying to understand your system.
>>>>
>>>>Charles Butler
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
________________________________
From: Valerie Sutton <sutton at signwriting.org>
>>>>To: SignWriting List <sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu>
>>>>Sent: Mon, November 30, 2009 12:23:21 PM
>>>>Subject: Re: [sw-l] Ordering Signs
>>>>
>>>>SignWriting List
>>>>November 30, 2009
>>>>
>>>>Hello Andre!
>>>>I feel soooo happy to receive this message from you. What a remarkable message this is. Very few people in the history of SignWriting can provide information on testing how Deaf children look up signs, by Sign Symbols, in dictionaries written in SignWriting. That is because very few people have classrooms of Deaf children fluent in SignWriting, and your classroom in French-Canada, using LSQ, is one of those historic places, that we can point to, when discussing the theories on sign-symbol-searches.
>>>>
>>>>Of course there are classrooms around the world using SignWriting...Stefan Woehrmann's classroom in Germany, for example, and classrooms in Nicaragua and Belgium and Brazil and other countries...and they are all doing wonderful work...
>>>>
>>>>Have any other teachers tested how Deaf children look up signs in dictionaries without using any spoken language? Just searching for signs sorted by Sign-Symbol-Sequence (alphabetical order of SignWriting symbols)? If so, please tell us how it worked for your students...
>>>>
>>>>I am hoping to start, at the end of 2010, to improve our printed dictionaries...and then distribute the printed dictionaries to groups of signers to see if they can find signs in those printed dictionaries, sorted by Sign-Symbols...but that project hasn't started yet...
>>>>
>>>>I can see, Andre, that you have already started such a project and I am very interested to read your results...I will save this message to refer to later...and THANK YOU for sharing with us...
>>>>
>>>>What excites me the most, is that you have found that it is beneficial for your Deaf students, to use SignWriting in dictionaries. That is meaningful, to know that SignWriting is making a difference in people's lives...If it can help some Deaf children to learn how to use dictionaries, that is wonderful.
>>>>
>>>>Out of the 13 different handshapes listed in Group 1 of the ISWA, LSQ (Quebec Sign Language) only uses 5 out of the 13 handshapes...The International SignWriting Alphabet was never meant to be used in its entirety by all sign languages...We all assume that each sign language will only use some of the symbols in the ISWA, just as the full IPA is not used to write this message in English...
>>>>
>>>>So I look forward to learning more about your project, Andre -
>>>>
>>>>Thanks again for your sharing with us -
>>>>
>>>>Val ;-)
>>>>
>>>>--------------------
>>>>
>>>>On Nov 29, 2009, at 3:50 AM, Gagnon et Thibeault wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Trevor, Charles, Gerard, Christophe, and everyone
>>>>>
>>>>> A Deaf teacher and I have been working on a Sign Writing LSQ (a written LSQ) dictionary for one month now. The Deaf teacher has been testing if Deaf children are able to look up SW orders without alphabetic orders in the dictionary.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> It seems that it works well because Deaf children who have difficulties to read a written French can directly find a written LSQ to help them find a French word in the dictionary.
>>>>>
>>>>> Charles mentioned that handshape orders are “index finger”, “index & middle finger”, “index finger, middle, & thumb”, “four fingers”, “four fingers & thumb”, “thumb & small finger”, “thumb & ring finger”, “thumb & index finger”, and “thumb & fist”. I focus on “Index Finger”. You will see the attached ISWA. The Index Finger has 13 different handshapes from ISWA in the world. However, the Index Finger of the LSQ has only 5 different handshapes.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> In addition, you will see the attached location orders. Location orders have 5 parts: 1) head & neck, 2) trunk & leg, 3) arm, 4) hand, 5) neutral space. If you look up a written LSQ in the dictionary, you must think from the high level of location to the low level of location. Contact symbols which include touch, hit, rub and so forth interact with a specific area of the body. If the hand or the finger touches the nose, you look up quickly a head location order. For example, if a signer produces BELIEVE (ASL), the index finger touches the middle front: you look up a “head” location order. Another example, if the signer produces SHOW (ASL), the index finger of the right hand touches the palm of the left hand. You look up a hand location order. If the signer produces ONE (ASL), the index finger is the front of the shoulder without contact symbols. You look up a last (neutral space) location order.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> You will see the attached SW orders. You will find a first page. You look up index finger and location orders. EYE (LSQ) is a highest level of the head than higher level of the head for TOOTH (LSQ) than a high level of the head for CANDY (LSQ) than a low level of the head for TO SAY (LSQ).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> Trevor, if the signer who uses a British manual alphabet produces “A” (BSL), the index finger of the right hand touches the thumb of the left hand (handshape 5). You look up an index finger order and a hand location order in the BSL dictionary. If the signer produces “I” (BSL), the index finger of the right hand touches the tip of the middle finger of the left hand (handshape 5). You look up an index finger order and a hand location order. You will see the attached SW orders (page 21).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> We will adjust and test the LSQ dictionary. We are still working on it. If Trevor, Charles or everyone takes a (SW) workshop or attends a (SW) conference, we will be happy to teach him/her how to look up quickly your own sign language in the dictionary.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> André
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
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>>
>>
>>--
>>Regards, Trevor.
>>
>><>< Re: deemed!
>>
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>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>SW-L SignWriting List
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>
>
>
>____________________________________________
>
>SW-L SignWriting List
>
>Post Message
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>
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--
Regards, Trevor.
<>< Re: deemed!
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