Ordering Signs

Mon Nov 30 00:22:58 UTC 2009

True Gerard I do have reasonable eye sight but I also have dyslexia and
bright yellow on white makes it impossible for me to read that text.

On Sun, Nov 29, 2009 at 1:14 PM, Gerard Meijssen
<gerard.meijssen at gmail.com>wrote:

> Hoi,
> You are blessed with the eye sight that makes this yellow and huge. Some
> people have a visual impairment and for them this is how they CAN
> communicate. I think we are blessed that Gagnon makes the effort to reach
> out. He does validly and materially contribute.
>
> I agree that YELLOW and BIG is not pleasant and I hope you will agree with
> me that once you know why it is easily overcome.
> Thanks,
>       Gerard
>
> 2009/11/29 Trevor Jenkins <bslwannabe at gmail.com>
>
> Sorry Gagnon iI can't read this! Huge text and yellow font ... yuck.
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 29, 2009 at 11:50 AM, Gagnon et Thibeault <atg at videotron.ca>wrote:
>>
>>>  *Hi Trevor, Charles, Gerard, Christophe, and everyone*
>>> **
>>> *    A Deaf teacher and I have been working on a Sign Writing LSQ (a
>>> written LSQ) dictionary for one month now.  The Deaf teacher has been
>>> testing if Deaf children are able to look up SW orders without alphabetic
>>> orders in the dictionary.*
>>> **
>>> *    It seems that it works well because Deaf children who have
>>> difficulties to **read a written French can directly find a written LSQ
>>> to help them find a French word in the dictionary.*
>>> **
>>> *    Charles mentioned that handshape orders are “index finger”, “index
>>> & middle finger”, “index finger, middle, & thumb”, “four fingers”, “four
>>> fingers & thumb”, “thumb & small finger”, “thumb & ring finger”, “thumb &
>>> index finger”, and “thumb & fist”.  I focus on “Index Finger”. You will see
>>> the attached ISWA.  The Index Finger has 13 different handshapes from ISWA
>>> in the world. However, the Index Finger of the LSQ has only 5 different
>>> handshapes.*
>>> **
>>> *    In addition, you will see the attached location orders.  Location
>>> orders have 5 parts: 1) head & neck, 2) trunk & leg, 3) arm, 4) hand, 5)
>>> neutral space.  If you look up a written LSQ in the dictionary, you must
>>> think from the high level of location to the low level of location. Contact
>>> symbols which include touch, hit, rub and so forth interact with a specific
>>> area of the body.  If the hand or the finger touches the nose, you look up
>>> quickly a head location order.  For example, if a signer produces BELIEVE
>>> (ASL), the index finger touches the middle front: you look up a “head”
>>> location order.  Another example, if the signer produces SHOW (ASL), the
>>> index finger of the right hand touches the palm of the left hand. You look
>>> up a hand location order.  If the signer produces ONE (ASL), the index
>>> finger is the front of the shoulder without contact symbols.  You look up a
>>> last (neutral space) location order.*
>>> **
>>> *    You will see the attached SW orders.  You will find a first page.
>>> You look up index finger and location orders. EYE (LSQ) is a highest level
>>> of the head than higher level of the head for TOOTH (LSQ) than a high level
>>> of the head for CANDY (LSQ) than a low level of the head for TO SAY (LSQ).
>>> *
>>> **
>>> *    Trevor, if the signer who uses a British manual alphabet produces
>>> “A” (BSL), the index finger of the right hand touches the thumb of the left
>>> hand (handshape 5).  You look up an index finger order and a hand location
>>> order in the BSL dictionary.  If the signer produces “I” (BSL), the index
>>> finger of the right hand touches the tip of the middle finger of the left
>>> hand (handshape 5).  You look up an index finger order and a hand location
>>> order. You will see the attached SW orders (page 21).*
>>> **
>>> *    We will adjust and test the LSQ dictionary.  We are still working
>>> on it.   If Trevor, Charles or everyone takes a (SW) workshop or attends a
>>> (SW) conference, we will be happy to teach him/her how to look up quickly
>>> your own sign language in the dictionary.*
>>> **
>>> *    Best regards,*
>>> **
>>> *    André*
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>  *From:* Christopher Miller <christophermiller at mac.com>
>>> *To:* SignWriting List <sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu>
>>> *Cc:* Christopher Miller <christophermiller at mac.com>
>>> *Sent:* Thursday, November 26, 2009 1:05 PM
>>> *Subject:* Re: [sw-l] Ordering Signs
>>> ****
>>> Just  a short note about the origin of standard alphabetical order: it
>>> actually descends from one of two orders used in the ancient Ugaritic
>>> alphabet ca 14th century BCE. (Scroll down to "Alphabetic order" at
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alphabet.) The order has been kept overall
>>> in all the non-Indic descendants of the West Semitic alphabets except for
>>> the reformed Arabic alphabet, which nevertheless kept it for letters used as
>>> numerals like the way we use a, b, c... in lists. The chart from the primer
>>> that you cite is rather ingenious in the way it tries to shoehorn the
>>> alphabetically ordered letters into aligning by place of articulation but
>>> nearly as many letters fall through the cracks as fit into the arrangement.
>>>
>>> Using conventional alphabetic orders for the handshapes of different sign
>>> languages, following the handshape-letter pairings in various manual
>>> alphabets, has the advantage (in each sign language) of using an order
>>> familiar from the surrounding written version of the spoken language, but
>>> there are always more handshapes than those in the manual alphabet, and the
>>> ones in the manual alphabet are not all necessarily used in signs
>>> themselves, as opposed to representing written letters for fingerspelling.
>>> And, in two-handed alphabets like the British manual alphabet or other older
>>> ones used in Italy, Indonesia or North America, a printed letter does not
>>> usually correspond to a single given handshape and vice versa. ANd of
>>> course, there are many more symbols apart from handshapes in any system for
>>> writing or notating signs, whether Signwriting, Stokoe, Hamnosys or any
>>> other: locations, movements etc.
>>>
>>> So whatever the system, the best choice is to base the collation order on
>>> aspects of the actual structure of the handshapes and other structural
>>> elements used to make signs. Still, once you start on this basis, there are
>>> lots of choices, some of them essentially arbitrary, as to what groups of
>>> symbols, and what symbols within these groups, should be placed in what
>>> order.
>>>
>>>  On 2009-11-26, at 12:10 PM, Charles Butler wrote:
>>>
>>>   I understand your concern that SW is too young to mandate an order as
>>> it may grow linguistically for some situations.  However, the groups of
>>> handshapes are by fingers used, so though they are also ASL numbers, they
>>> are based on which fingers are being used in a sign, which makes them very
>>> useful in clustering signs together that all use the "index finger", the
>>> "index and middle finger", the "index finger, middle, and thumb", the "four
>>> fingers", "the four fingers and thumb", "the thumb and small finger", the
>>> "thumb and ring finger", the "thumb and index finger" and the "thumb/fist".
>>>
>>>
>>> One can cluster in any number of ways.  Just as aside, the Roman Alphabet
>>> is thought to have been based on a primer
>>>
>>> A B C D
>>> E F G     H
>>> I          J
>>>        K     L
>>>    M     N
>>> O P Q     R
>>>             S
>>>             T
>>> U V W X Y
>>>             Z
>>>
>>> There are missing sounds, but a grid in order of vowels, bilabials,
>>> gutterals, dentals, and liquids seems to work for me.
>>>
>>>  ------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Regards, Trevor.
>>
>> <>< Re: deemed!
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
>
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-- 
Regards, Trevor.

<>< Re: deemed!
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