Ordering Signs

Mon Nov 30 09:32:07 UTC 2009

Yes I could (and thank you) but the yellow text was just way TOO much. My
Myers-Irlen test restuls, for my dyslexia, don't include yellow on white.
Indeed that combintation is such that I can't see words at all simply glare.

But as to the specific comment about BSL in Gagnon's post, the problem is
not that an SW dictionary might be organised according to the two-handed
British fingerspelling alphabet but that existing dictionaries being based
on the Amero-centric Stokoe notation are organised by ASL labels A BSL user
has to deal with *two* fundamentally different systems; that's the
confusion..

On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 12:45 AM, Paul William Ellis <
PWEllis at enablelight.com> wrote:

>  You can always hit reply and highlight the text and change it to black.
> As well as copy and paste in a word doc and change to black.  See below.
>
>
>
> *From:* sw-l-bounces at majordomo.valenciacc.edu [mailto:
> sw-l-bounces at majordomo.valenciacc.edu] *On Behalf Of *Trevor Jenkins
> *Sent:* Sunday, November 29, 2009 6:23 PM
> *To:* SignWriting List
>
> *Subject:* Re: [sw-l] Ordering Signs
>
>
>
> True Gerard I do have reasonable eye sight but I also have dyslexia and
> bright yellow on white makes it impossible for me to read that text.
>
> On Sun, Nov 29, 2009 at 1:14 PM, Gerard Meijssen <
> gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hoi,
> You are blessed with the eye sight that makes this yellow and huge. Some
> people have a visual impairment and for them this is how they CAN
> communicate. I think we are blessed that Gagnon makes the effort to reach
> out. He does validly and materially contribute.
>
> I agree that YELLOW and BIG is not pleasant and I hope you will agree with
> me that once you know why it is easily overcome.
> Thanks,
>       Gerard
>
> 2009/11/29 Trevor Jenkins <bslwannabe at gmail.com>
>
>
>
> Sorry Gagnon iI can't read this! Huge text and yellow font ... yuck.
>
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 29, 2009 at 11:50 AM, Gagnon et Thibeault <atg at videotron.ca>
> wrote:
>
> *Hi Trevor, Charles, Gerard, Christophe, and everyone*
>
>
>
> *    A Deaf teacher and I have been working on a Sign Writing LSQ (a
> written LSQ) dictionary for one month now.  The Deaf teacher has been
> testing if Deaf children are able to look up SW orders without alphabetic
> orders in the dictionary.*
>
>
>
> *    It seems that it works well because Deaf children who have
> difficulties to read a written French can directly find a written LSQ to
> help them find a French word in the dictionary.*
>
>
>
> *    Charles mentioned that handshape orders are “index finger”, “index &
> middle finger”, “index finger, middle, & thumb”, “four fingers”, “four
> fingers & thumb”, “thumb & small finger”, “thumb & ring finger”, “thumb &
> index finger”, and “thumb & fist”.  I focus on “Index Finger”. You will see
> the attached ISWA.  The Index Finger has 13 different handshapes from ISWA
> in the world. However, the Index Finger of the LSQ has only 5 different
> handshapes.*
>
>
>
> *    In addition, you will see the attached location orders.  Location
> orders have 5 parts: 1) head & neck, 2) trunk & leg, 3) arm, 4) hand, 5)
> neutral space.  If you look up a written LSQ in the dictionary, you must
> think from the high level of location to the low level of location. Contact
> symbols which include touch, hit, rub and so forth interact with a specific
> area of the body.  If the hand or the finger touches the nose, you look up
> quickly a head location order.  For example, if a signer produces BELIEVE
> (ASL), the index finger touches the middle front: you look up a “head”
> location order.  Another example, if the signer produces SHOW (ASL), the
> index finger of the right hand touches the palm of the left hand. You look
> up a hand location order.  If the signer produces ONE (ASL), the index
> finger is the front of the shoulder without contact symbols.  You look up a
> last (neutral space) location order.*
>
>
>
> *    You will see the attached SW orders.  You will find a first page.
> You look up index finger and location orders. EYE (LSQ) is a highest level
> of the head than higher level of the head for TOOTH (LSQ) than a high level
> of the head for CANDY (LSQ) than a low level of the head for TO SAY (LSQ).
> *
>
>
>
> *    Trevor, if the signer who uses a British manual alphabet produces “A”
> (BSL), the index finger of the right hand touches the thumb of the left hand
> (handshape 5).  You look up an index finger order and a hand location order
> in the BSL dictionary.  If the signer produces “I” (BSL), the index finger
> of the right hand touches the tip of the middle finger of the left hand
> (handshape 5).  You look up an index finger order and a hand location order.
> You will see the attached SW orders (page 21).*
>
>
>
> *    We will adjust and test the LSQ dictionary.  We are still working on
> it.   If Trevor, Charles or everyone takes a (SW) workshop or attends a (SW)
> conference, we will be happy to teach him/her how to look up quickly your
> own sign language in the dictionary.*
>
>
>
> *    Best regards,*
>
>
>
> *    André*
>
>  ----- Original Message -----
>
> *From:* Christopher Miller <christophermiller at mac.com>
>
> *To:* SignWriting List <sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu>
>
> *Cc:* Christopher Miller <christophermiller at mac.com>
>
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 26, 2009 1:05 PM
>
> *Subject:* Re: [sw-l] Ordering Signs
>
>
>
> Just  a short note about the origin of standard alphabetical order: it
> actually descends from one of two orders used in the ancient Ugaritic
> alphabet ca 14th century BCE. (Scroll down to "Alphabetic order" at
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alphabet.) The order has been kept overall in
> all the non-Indic descendants of the West Semitic alphabets except for the
> reformed Arabic alphabet, which nevertheless kept it for letters used as
> numerals like the way we use a, b, c... in lists. The chart from the primer
> that you cite is rather ingenious in the way it tries to shoehorn the
> alphabetically ordered letters into aligning by place of articulation but
> nearly as many letters fall through the cracks as fit into the arrangement.
>
>
>
> Using conventional alphabetic orders for the handshapes of different sign
> languages, following the handshape-letter pairings in various manual
> alphabets, has the advantage (in each sign language) of using an order
> familiar from the surrounding written version of the spoken language, but
> there are always more handshapes than those in the manual alphabet, and the
> ones in the manual alphabet are not all necessarily used in signs
> themselves, as opposed to representing written letters for fingerspelling.
> And, in two-handed alphabets like the British manual alphabet or other older
> ones used in Italy, Indonesia or North America, a printed letter does not
> usually correspond to a single given handshape and vice versa. ANd of
> course, there are many more symbols apart from handshapes in any system for
> writing or notating signs, whether Signwriting, Stokoe, Hamnosys or any
> other: locations, movements etc.
>
>
>
> So whatever the system, the best choice is to base the collation order on
> aspects of the actual structure of the handshapes and other structural
> elements used to make signs. Still, once you start on this basis, there are
> lots of choices, some of them essentially arbitrary, as to what groups of
> symbols, and what symbols within these groups, should be placed in what
> order.
>
>
>
> On 2009-11-26, at 12:10 PM, Charles Butler wrote:
>
>
>
> I understand your concern that SW is too young to mandate an order as it
> may grow linguistically for some situations.  However, the groups of
> handshapes are by fingers used, so though they are also ASL numbers, they
> are based on which fingers are being used in a sign, which makes them very
> useful in clustering signs together that all use the "index finger", the
> "index and middle finger", the "index finger, middle, and thumb", the "four
> fingers", "the four fingers and thumb", "the thumb and small finger", the
> "thumb and ring finger", the "thumb and index finger" and the
> "thumb/fist".
>
> One can cluster in any number of ways.  Just as aside, the Roman Alphabet
> is thought to have been based on a primer
>
> A B C D
> E F G     H
> I          J
>        K     L
>    M     N
> O P Q     R
>             S
>             T
> U V W X Y
>             Z
>
> There are missing sounds, but a grid in order of vowels, bilabials,
> gutterals, dentals, and liquids seems to work for me.
>  ------------------------------
>
>
>
>
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> --
> Regards, Trevor.
>
> <>< Re: deemed!
>
>
>
>
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> --
> Regards, Trevor.
>
> <>< Re: deemed!
>
>
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-- 
Regards, Trevor.

<>< Re: deemed!
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