SWML site...using Group 30 for research

Wed Feb 24 15:51:32 UTC 2010

SignWriting List
February 24, 2010

Hello Ingvild and Steve -
I am happy to learn about your new paper, Ingvild, on how SignWriting can be used in research...and I look forward to reading it...whatever you propose will be of interest and is welcome - researchers need to use these symbols, you are right about that...

here are some of my thoughts...

First, I think it would be good to share with you the terminology that Steve and I developed to explain the differences between writing for "everyday use", which we are calling "Spatial SignSpellings" because the symbols are spatially relating to each other in a cluster, and "SignSpelling Sequences" which is the sequence the symbols are placed in, when sorting signs in dictionaries...

Spatial SignSpellings are the way we spell everyday, when writing documents and dictionaries, and the SignSpelling Sequences are for the computerization of sorting dictionaries by sign-symbols.

And yes, Group 30 includes Detailed Location Markers that are used for sorting large dictionaries in SignSpelling Sequences, but are not used for writing Spatial SignSpellings.

Second, there is another use for Group 30 Detailed Location Markers...for linguistic databases such as SignTyp, which may use SignWriting in the future, if a grant comes through. Many thanks to the SignTyp team for your hard work in writing the grant proposal. In the proposal, the Detailed Location Markers are mentioned as useful for linguistic analysis for the SignTyp database...so that is a second use for the symbols in Group 30...to give linguistic details for databases.

Third, the reason we do not need the Detailed Location Markers when writing for everyday use, is because Spatial SignSpellings include the spatial relationship between the symbols, in a visual cluster...that "visual relationship" can be seen well because we place the symbol in the visual location of where it belongs in relationship to the shoulders, or the hips or the face, and so we do not need another symbol to tell us that the hand is over the head, because we place the handshape above the head...so that eliminates the need for these special Detailed Location Markers, making the writing system much easier to read for everyday use...

Fourth, Ingvild, if you wish to use the Detailed Location Markers in Group 30 for your research and for whatever reason you feel is necessary, of course go right ahead and do that...Steve and I may not have realized other uses for Group 30, so if you want to use those symbols for other reasons, that is fine with me and it will be interesting to see how they can be used in other ways in the research community....Keep us informed!

Fifth, regarding those who say that SignWriting cannot write the richness of Deaf storytelling...they have clearly not read the Cat in the Hat! Cherie Wren wrote soooo much detail in the Cat in the Hat in ASL, based on an ASL video, without ever needing any of the Detailed Location Markers in Group 30...Cherie wrote only with the symbols in Groups 1-29, and the writing is rich with sooo much detail, showing everything, that I can hardly imagine the need for more detail...that is my opinion anyway...

Cat in the Hat
http://www.signwriting.org/library/children/CatHat.html

Most of the time, when people say that SignWriting cannot write something, they are speaking from a lack of knowledge of the writing system...they are assuming that is true, without really knowing or learning SignWriting...They know they would have to learn it and analyze a story that is written, like Cat in the Hat, and that takes training and time, and so they assume that it is not worth their time to make the effort...

But, if Group 30 symbols are useful to give them a feeling of hope that we can write the detail, that is fine too...whatever works!

Val ;-)

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On Feb 24, 2010, at 4:40 AM, Ingvild Roald wrote:

> Of course  I thought of the group 30 (the very last one)
> 
> I have no example at the moment, and I would certainly not use these symbols in ordinary writing - but it might be that to clearify a spesific point it would not be enough to have the symbol in the spelling sequence - like which hand is where at what time. I am thinking specifically of real Deaf storytelling, where the movements of hands, eyes, brows, head, neck, ... all hangs together to tell the strory. As a tool to analyze this, to make it appear on paper rather than just on video, I think that SignWriting would make a great tool - even if I am not a lingusit myself. The reasons I get from sign linguists for not using SW, is partly that signing is too rich, and therefore cannot be put on paper. But this makes real research hard and the resuls hard to justify - other languages are put to paper and extra symbols are used to show pitch, speed, emphasis, unusuall pronounciation etc, symbols that are not used in the everyday writing of said language (or of any language). 
> 
> Ingvild 
> 
> 
> 
> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 06:28:10 -0600
> From: slevin at signpuddle.net
> To: sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu
> Subject: Re: [sw-l] SWML site
> 
> Hi Ingvild,
> 
> Do you want to use the sorting symbols in the Spatial SignSpelling rather than the SignSpelling Sequence?  Can you show an example?
> 
> In talking with Val, we agreed that the sorting symbols were for extra detail in the sequence for sorting and should not be used in the spelling meant for reading.
> 
> We can look at SymbolGroup 30 to help discuss this issue.
> http://signbank.org/swis/iswa/60832_sg.html
> 
> Regards,
> -Steve
> 
> 
> Ingvild Roald wrote:
> Hi Steve,
> 
> I am into another project: I will write a paper on how SignWriting can be used for research. For this I will propose that the sorting symbols can be used when more detail is needed than would normally be used in everyday writing. So even if I fully agree that these symbols (group 10) should not be used in normal litterature or in the dictionary lookup (exept as an addition, to mark a distinction from another, almost similar sign), they may give linguists needed tools for writing exactly what is signed, as a basis for analyzing. Do you disagree on this?
> 
> Ingvild 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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