question for the way to express 'made'

Tue Jan 12 00:44:57 UTC 2010

SignWriting List
January 11, 2010

Hello Adam!
Welcome home from Jamaica. I am so looking forward to learning more  
about your trip, and especially the time you spent at the Caribbean  
Christian Centre for the Deaf in Knockpatrick. No rush, but in time,  
we want to hear all about it...

Thank you for this message about the Frosty document, and your  
description of what may have been the reasons for some of the writing  
in the old 1999 document...those reasons sound accurate to me. I  
admire Lourdes very much. Lourdes was born-Deaf in Puerto Rico, and  
moved to the United States later, plus when she married in the US, she  
had hearing children, so there were many language influences in her  
life...but meanwhile...Lourdes has the courage and creativity to write  
and do the illustrations herself, and I was so impressed and surprised  
when she handed me the document that I was happy to post it. You can  
read more about Lourdes on this web page:

Lourdes Tollette
http://signwriting.org/library/children/frosty/frosty17.html

And we look forward to your native ASL version of Frosty too, Adam. I  
will be happy to post that too, with your permission (grin ;-) ....

Val ;-)

----------------

On Jan 11, 2010, at 3:19 PM, Adam Frost wrote:

> Well, it looks like I was missed on the list. I missed you all as  
> well, although I wouldn't traded going to the Caribbean Christian  
> Centre for the Deaf in Knockpatrick, Jamaica and spending the time  
> that I did with those kids. I can't even begin to tell you the  
> enjoyment that I had there. Of course that is for another time. :-)
>
> The question of Lourdes' choice of spelling out MADE is one of the  
> main reasons I asked if I could do a re-rendering of that part. I  
> haven't been able to get settled enough to record it, but I will get  
> to it. One thing I can assure you is that the spelling of MADE or  
> even the sign for MAKE will not be in there. I don't know if anyone  
> has ever heard this one, but I have used it a lot when in an ASL  
> class. "Show it; don't tell it." That is precisely how I will convey  
> the concept in my rendering.
>
> Now, since I am not Lourdes and I can't read minds all too well  
> (although I have been accused of having that ability), I suspect  
> that she spelled out made because she was trying to do a very close  
> translation of the story rather than "unwrapping the story of all  
> English wrapping and rewrapping it with ASL leaving only the diamond  
> of the story" as my translation teacher would tell me. He also said  
> that while Deaf people are more apt to being bilingual, the skill of  
> translating is almost never taught leaving Deaf people very few  
> tools to use when asked to translate a story. This is also my guess  
> why very few facial expressions were used since English isn't an  
> "animated" language like ASL. Also realizing the time when Lourdes  
> wrote that translation, most Deaf people felt (and some still do  
> today) that ASL is inferior to English.
>
> Just thought that I'd give a preliminary for those that have been  
> waiting for so long for the day of my return. ;-D
>
> Adam
>
> On Jan 7, 2010, at 9:21 AM, SignWriting wrote:
>
>> SignWriting List
>> January 7, 2009
>>
>> Hello Gan, Charles and Shane -
>>
>> Yes, Shane is right. There is definitely a way to do all  
>> modifications of verbs in sign languages, but the grammar structure  
>> is different than in spoken languages. In ASL they oftentimes will  
>> combine the sign for MAKE or CREATE, that Charles showed you, with  
>> the sign for FINISH, that gives the verb the past tense...however,  
>> we need to wait for Adam Frost to come back from his trip, since he  
>> is a native ASL signer and he can explain it better than I can...
>>
>> And Gan, the reason that Lourdes fingerspelled the sign for MADE is  
>> not known to us...When we publish a Deaf person's writing, we try  
>> not to change their signing style, but instead just try to assist  
>> with the way the signs are written in SignWriting...but the actual  
>> choice of fingerspelling versus using the past tense for MAKE was  
>> Lourdes' choice...and we cannot get in touch with Lourdes right  
>> now...so if you want to wait until Adam comes home...he can do his  
>> own version of Frosty and then you will have the author to ask...
>>
>> Meanwhile, from your software perspective, it needs to be able to  
>> capture and write fingerspelling and facial expressions, if you  
>> want the software to really be used by the ASL community, because  
>> ASL is one of those sign languages that uses a great deal of  
>> fingerspelling and all sign languages use facial expressions...
>>
>> ASL uses a lot of fingerspelling for scientific terms that do not  
>> have signs yet, and sometimes the fingerspelling becomes a sign in  
>> its own right, by blending together to form an unsual group of  
>> finger movements, so your software needs to get used to recognizing  
>> fingerspelling...at least ASL has one-handed fingerspelling that  
>> might be easier for your software than the two-handed  
>> fingerspelling used in the UK...
>>
>> Those are my thoughts. Adam will be back on January 11th...
>>
>> Good luck with your software - we look forward to using it someday -
>>
>> Val ;-)
>>
>> -----------
>>
>>
>> On Jan 7, 2010, at 9:05 AM, Shane Gilchrist wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Gan,
>>>
>>> we dont really have past tenses in the same sense as the English
>>> language - for instance, in BSL (using glosses - sorry!)
>>>
>>> I made food:
>>>
>>> - FOOD COOK^nodding
>>> - FOOD COOK PAST
>>> - FOOD COOK FINISHED!
>>>
>>> non-manual features are very important here.
>>>
>>> Shane
>>>
>>>
>>> 2010/1/6 Gan  Lu <glu at uclan.ac.uk>:
>>>> Hi Charles;
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for the comment. So do you reckon the past tense is  
>>>> necessary here? And if we use "create". should it be 'Created'  
>>>> then?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>> Gan
>>>>
>>>>>>> "Charles Butler" <chazzer3332000 at yahoo.com> 06/01/10 1:54 PM >>>
>>>> Hmm.  In context the sign, I would think would be either "make"  
>>>> or "create".  The tense is carried by the situation.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> create
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: Gan Lu <glu at uclan.ac.uk>
>>>> To: sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu
>>>> Sent: Wed, January 6, 2010 8:05:15 AM
>>>> Subject: [sw-l] question for the way to express 'made'
>>>>
>>>> Dear Adam and Valerie;
>>>>
>>>> I'm implementing the system now. While I have a question:
>>>>
>>>>   why can't we use an ASL gesture to express the meaning of  
>>>> 'made' on the first page of the 'Frosty the Snow Man', other than  
>>>> using the FingerSpellings to sign these four letters respectively?
>>>>
>>>>   I suppose the reason is because the word 'made' is a past  
>>>> tense, and there is no ASL for it.
>>>>
>>>> The reason I'm asking is my intention is to implement the first  
>>>> page as a 4-by-4 output pattern, which are 16 sign-boxes in total  
>>>> includes those punctuations. So I'm looking for a way to squeeze  
>>>> the word 'made' into a box.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>> Gan
>>
>>
>>
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