embedding ASL in pdf/html

Alan Post alanpost at SUNFLOWERRIVER.ORG
Wed Mar 24 01:56:59 UTC 2010

I'm certainly not offended, thank you for sharing this with me.  I'm
not sure I can fully respond, as there is a part of me that is not
 willing to stop working on my project, and there is only so much
debate one can engage in if you're not willing to change your mind
as a result of the debate.

I feel deeply attracted to my project, such that not continuing to
work on it would be traumatizing to me.  Thinking about the
possibility certainly is.

I would hope (perhaps it would be better say I would wishfully
think) that there is some way in which I can honor the point of view
you express here--both within myself and within "lo do ckiku ma
zvati."  That there would be some change I could make--something I
could do--so that this game would not make you feel this way.

This is wishful thinking because it is a thought process that comes
from my own unwillingness to abandon my project.  So I present it as
a rationalization to continue doing the only thing I feel that I can
do: play "lo do ckiku ma zvati."

If you permitted me a moment to dream of ways you and I could both
be happy, it would be this: I'm using ASL because it is available to
me.  There are many grammatical elements in Lojban that have no
parallel in English or ASL.  These three languages are expressive in
their own ways, each has a vastly different grammar.  Lojban would be
better served by having a sign language designed with the same
principles used to create Lojban:

  * Lojban is designed to be culturally neutral.
  * Lojban has an unambiguous grammar, which is based on the
    principles of logic.
  * Lojban has phonetic spelling, and unambiguous resolution of
    sounds into words.  (In the case of a sign language, an
    unambiguous resolution of gestures into words, and the
    technology already exists for the equivalent of "phonetic"
  * Lojban is regular; the rules of the language are without

No such sign language yet exists.  I'm not qualified, alone, to do
this work: it is an extremely high standard.  It would speak very
well of one's ability to live according to one's ideals to see a
project like this to completion for the purposes of resolving this

Given that I see the decision tree as either A) I destroy "lo do
ckiku ma zvati," B) you stop feeling like "lo do ckiku ma zvati"
is appropriating ASL or C) We come to a mutual understanding, a
workable compromise, or in the best of all possible worlds a shared
vision, I have a tremendous preference for option C.

I don't know whether you and I can both get what we want in option
C.  What do you think?


On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 05:51:20PM -0700, Cherie Wren wrote:
>    What hearing people have done, more than just a few times, is take the
>    LANGUAGE of Deaf people, ASL, and minimize it into a code for English (or
>    whatever).  Using the signs to' stand for' words in another language
>    without understanding the grammar and structure that make ASL a language
>    is reducing one of the most beautiful languages into nothing more than
>    morse code on the hands.  Its like taking a beautiful piece of art and
>    cutting it into pieces to use for note paper.   While using it to play
>    your game to teach yet another language is, I am sure, useful to you, it
>    contributes to the all too common misunderstanding that ASL is not a
>    proper language, it is just 'hand talk code' and can be thrown about willy
>    nilly in any fashion we want.  It denigrates ASL into a SUB-sub-language
>    status.  (it has long been considered "less than" spoken language, now its
>    being pushed even lower.)
>    Wow.  Sorry.  I didn't realize I felt that strongly about it until I
>    started writing.  I sat and seriously debated whether I wanted to send
>    this or delete it, but you asked...  I have nothing against you or your
>    project, and I hope this doesn't come across as too offensive.  But I have
>    been fighting with hearing people who treat ASL as a way to manually
>    represent English for FAAAARRR too long.  I apologize if I have ruffled
>    any feathers...
>    cherie
>    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>    From: Adam Frost <icemandeaf at gmail.com>
>    To: SignWriting List <sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu>
>    Sent: Tue, March 23, 2010 2:32:19 PM
>    Subject: Re: [sw-l] embedding ASL in pdf/html
>    That's exactly what he meant. It is something that has to be treaded
>    carefully because it has happened too many times where that exact fear has
>    happened. That is why so many Deaf people are so protective.
>    Adam
>    On Mar 23, 2010, at 11:15 AM, Valerie Sutton wrote:
>    > So I am trying to imagine what the Deaf person meant by saying that to
>    you...I would assume there is a possible fear, that hearing people will
>    use Deaf people's native language, ASL, which is a true language, just for
>    games, and not understand its importance in society .... do you think that
>    was what he meant?
>    >
>    > Adam?
>    ____________________________________________
>    SW-L SignWriting List
>    Post Message
>    [1]SW-L at majordomo.valenciacc.edu
>    List Archives and Help
>    [2]http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/
>    Change Email Settings
>    [3]http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/sw-l
> References
>    Visible links
>    1. mailto:SW-L at majordomo.valenciacc.edu
>    2. http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/
>    3. http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/sw-l

> ____________________________________________
> SW-L SignWriting List
> Post Message
> SW-L at majordomo.valenciacc.edu
> List Archives and Help
> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/
> Change Email Settings
> http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/sw-l

te djuno lo do sevzi


SW-L SignWriting List

Post Message
SW-L at majordomo.valenciacc.edu

List Archives and Help

Change Email Settings

More information about the Sw-l mailing list