spelling question F-hands like in "Deaflympics"

[Valerie Sutton]

SignWriting List
May 30, 2010

Hello Charles and Everyone -

The handshapes "overlap" in the ISWA. There used to be transparent handshapes in the old IMWA back in 2004 - you are right. But Steve and I worked together on getting handshapes to be able to "overlap" - because other people wanted that, and there are more overlapping handshapes than there are intertwining handhshapes as far as I can tell.

In other words, there are times when we need to overlap handshapes for a reason, and there are times when we need them to interlock and be see-through...we need both...but I only know of this one instance where we need the intertwining, so the overlapping won out, because we could not find a programming solution for both.

So Steve and I tried to find a way to get both, and right now we do not have a programmed way to get both, and this is the only case that i know of, where we have to "build" the way it should look, by using a line from somewhere else in SignPuddle - 

And don't worry about the sorting by symbols - because we manually tell the software what symbols we want to be first and second and third in the SignSpelling, and of course we are not going to include that little curved line in the actual spelling, since it is kluge...

Someday we will solve the problem of programming both, but right now, this is the way it is - The hands overlap, but do not automatically intertwine - this is the only example that i know of where intertwining is really important...

Actually there are lots of times that people build handshapes that are not in the ISWA, using little lines and curves from elsewhere in the ISWA to construct the new handshape, and that is a useful tool in some cases...

There is one section for standardized arm lengths...I use them all the time and they work for me...but I also construct arms sometimes too - there is no problem with constructing symbols in the ISWA - it does not hurt sorting signs by sequence, because we enter the SignSpellings that we want later...

Have a great Sunday, everyone!

Call me anytime for tech support -

Val ;-)

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On May 30, 2010, at 7:52 AM, Charles Butler wrote:

> Valerie,
> 
> I'm confused here, in saying "use the little simultaneous arc" aren't you defeating the purpose of an actual program to overlap the hands.  If the construction is using a simultaneous arc, then the coding of the dictionary sign-symbol-sequence, once listed, will show that simultaneous arc, not the position of the hands as overlapping.  
> 
> For handwriting, any overlapping is easy, for construction in the SignPuddle, and use in a dictionary, what does one do for the programming if a simultaneous arc has been introduced as part of the construction of the visual sign?  
> 
> I find myself up against the same difficulty if I'm trying to show an arm, because the arm lengths are not clearly labeled as shoulder to elbow and elbow to hand so I can't tell which end is which.  
> 
> In handwriting, they are unmistakable, but in writing by electronic form, there is a difference in the two and which end goes where, and then if one puts in a sign-symbol-sequence, it is unclear which comes first in ordering the sign.  
> 
> What happened to transparent signs so that overlapping was really shown in arcs of both hands.  
> 
> Charles
> 
> 
> From: Valerie Sutton <writesignlanguage at GMAIL.COM>
> To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACC.EDU
> Sent: Sun, May 30, 2010 10:34:37 AM
> Subject: Re: spelling question F-hands like in "Deaflympics"
> 
> SignWriting List
> May 30, 2010
> 
> Hello Stefan!
> Thanks for this question and the great photos. We have the same handshape relationships in ASL too...for lots of signs.
> 
> There are actually three points I would like to share with you ...
> 
> 1. Did you know you can show the two hands intertwining? Here are two examples. See the little curved overlapping that shows they are intertwining. To create this in SignPuddle, place one handshape a little over the other one, and then use the small curved line for the "Simultaneous Movement"...the "Same-Time curved line" in Dynamics - to create the curve inside the circles...so now they really look like they are intertwining...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2. Once you have made them look like they are intertwining, why do you really need any Contact symbol, when you can see it the way the hands look in the writing? Here in our organization, we are starting to only use Contact symbols when the picture of the two hands together cannot show the way it really looks in real life, but if the writing can visually show the true relationship of the hands, and no information will be lost if the Contact is not written, then we don't choose to write the Contact to simplify the writing...
> 
> Yesterday I sent you a copy of some books, Stefan - yes - the box was shipped yesterday finally! And in the box is one copy of the Gospel According to John, the first seven chapters bound in a book...and you will see that in that writing, we are writing without very many Contact symbols - to simplify the writing.
> 
> 
> 3. If you want to write a Contact symbol, then I suspect either one of these three will be understood: Touch-Between, Grasp-Between, or even plain Grasp without the Between would be understood too...
> 
> So for me, what really matters is getting the two handshapes to look like they are intertwined...
> 
> No matter what you choose will be fine!
> 
> Thanks for the question -
> 
> Val ;-)
> 
> ---------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On May 30, 2010, at 6:57 AM, Stefan W?hrmann wrote:
> 
> > Hi Valerie and sw-list friends,
> >  
> > attached you find a foto of two F-hands ? some signs need this orientation ... for years I wrote the sign with the grip symbol with the ?in between? lines to the left and right.
> >  
> > Today I thought differently. Thumb and index touch each other ? but there is obviously no grip. ? and the touch in between  seems not appropriate either.
> >  
> > Any idea ? Comments?
> >  
> > Thank you
> >  
> > Stefan ;-)
> > 
>