Research about benefit of SW
Stefan Wöhrmann
stefanwoehrmann at GEBAERDENSCHRIFT.DE
Mon Jan 10 22:39:13 UTC 2011
Hi Charles,
it is me again - smile. Well your first message made me think as if it
should be easy for you to give some kind of direct link to such a study. I
do not have the time and energy to search for this kind of study . On the
other hand I do not want o put any burdon on you in case it would be the
same time consuming job. Of course not. Well – is it possible to proof that
SignWriting makes the difference if it comes down to improving Spoken
Language skills? Complicated problems and questions have to be answered
within this context. I would be very interested to look at the details of
these kind of studies. You know that I am teaching deaf students and we use
Signwriting 5 days the week.
I am interested to find out whether there are really studies that “work”
with competent deaf SignWriting students. What you need to proof that is a
really large SW-dictionary – not just maybe 2000 entries. You need documents
of many pages – not just a list of 100 vocabularies or something like that.
Well – I got interested because of your message which indicated to me that
you have knowledge of specific research about this.
Stefan ;-)
_____
Von: SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages
[mailto:SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACC.EDU] Im Auftrag von Charles Butler
Gesendet: Montag, 10. Januar 2011 18:20
An: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACC.EDU
Betreff: Re: AW: Filme " E seu nome é Jonas"
There is information on Brazil under Brazil and SignWriting, look for any
posting by Fernando Capovilla at the University of Sao Paulo. He has been
looking to get the word out about the breakthroughs that are happening in
Deaf education. His longitudinal study of 8000 Deaf Students in every state
of Brazil should be known everywhere.
The other example I can think of is SignWriting in Saudi Arabia and other
Arabic-speaking countries. Using a writing system that reduces the human
form to an icon enables them to learn the Quran and translate that
literature in Saudi Arabian, Tunisian, and other sign languages.
Charles
_____
From: Stefan Wöhrmann <stefanwoehrmann at GEBAERDENSCHRIFT.DE>
To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACC.EDU
Sent: Mon, January 10, 2011 10:19:46 AM
Subject: AW: Filme " E seu nome é Jonas"
Hi Charles,
I am interested to learn more about the “longitudinal studies in Brazil and
other countries”.
Can you give some information where I can get first hand information to get
an idea about that? What other countries?
Stefan ,-)
_____
Von: SignWriting List : Read and Write Sign Languages
[mailto:SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACC.EDU] Im Auftrag von Charles Butler
Gesendet: Montag, 10. Januar 2011 16:14
An: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACC.EDU
Betreff: Re: Filme " E seu nome é Jonas"
This film is about a boy who is diagnosed as mentally retarded for years
until someone actually does a hearing test and discovers that he is
brilliant, just deaf. As soon as he begins to learn sign language, his life
improves dramatically.
The film is "Your Name is Jonah" in English. I would say the same thing for
Deaf folk who begin to learn SignWriting. From longitudinal studies in
Brazil and other countries, having a measurable way to prove written
literacy enables Deaf and Hearing folk to truly compare intelligence in the
written word.
Charles
_____
From: Ingvild Roald <iroald at HOTMAIL.COM>
To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACC.EDU
Sent: Mon, January 10, 2011 4:29:11 AM
Subject: Re: Filme " E seu nome é Jonas"
What is this about?? I never heard of it. Has it anything to do with
signwriting? If not, why do you mention it on this list?? I am confused.
Ingvild
_____
Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2011 22:01:24 +0300
From: isalibras123 at HOTMAIL.COM
Subject: Re: Filme " E seu nome é Jonas"
To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACC.EDU
Obrigada!!!!
_____
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2011 11:09:07 -0800
From: chazzer3332000 at YAHOO.COM
Subject: Re: Filme " E seu nome é Jonas"
To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACC.EDU
My name is Jonas is quite a powerful film. I will see about availability in
this area.
Charles Butler
_____
From: isa peixoto da silva <isalibras123 at HOTMAIL.COM>
To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACC.EDU
Sent: Thu, January 6, 2011 11:27:58 AM
Subject: Filme " E seu nome é Jonas"
Boa Tarde amigo Charles!
Você poderia me ajudar? Preciso muito saber onde encontrar o filme " E seu
nome é Jonas". Não consigo encontra esse filme é muito dificíl...
OBS: FELIZ ANO NOVO !!!!!!!!
ATT: Isa Peixoto
_____
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2011 22:04:10 -0800
From: chazzer3332000 at YAHOO.COM
Subject: Re: AW: AW: Creating a sign language ordered dictionary
To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACC.EDU
Excellent answer, it will be a challenge for my work with Ethiopian Sign
Language as their abjad is so different than the Roman alphabet.
Charles
_____
From: Valerie Sutton <sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG>
To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACC.EDU
Sent: Sat, December 11, 2010 7:38:27 PM
Subject: Re: AW: AW: Creating a sign language ordered dictionary
SignWriting List
December 11, 2010
Hello Charles and Stefan -
Great discussion! ;-)
Before I go back to respond to all that has been said (tomorrow when I am
back online), I want to explain to others who are reading our messages, what
we are talking about...
SignWriting can be sorted in dictionaries and lists "by Sign
Symbols"...Sorting dictionaries or vocabulary lists by Sign-Symbols is done
with two processes:
1. First, the "SignSpelling Sequence" must be established. It is "the order
of symbols within EACH sign...like spellings for words in spoken languages -
the "spelling order" of symbols has to be understood by the computer, so the
computer can "sort" the dictionary by Sign-Symbols...
To establish the "SignSpelling Sequence" for each sign in SignPuddle, we ask
the writers of the signs to click on the SignSpelling button to the right of
the signs they have written (must be logged-in to do this). The writer tells
the computer what symbol in the sign should come first, and what symbol
should come second etc, when finding signs in a list...
2. Second, once the sign has its SignSpelling established, then, when
someone searches for a list of signs in SignPuddle, using the Symbol
Frequency or Search by Symbol or Search by Signs searching methods, all of
the signs that have a SignSpelling Sequence established in the dictionary
will be listed sorted by the alphabetical order of SignWriting , called the
Sign-Symbol-Sequence...
3. If a sign does NOT have a SignSpelling entered in the dictionary, and
there are lots of them, then SignPuddle places them in the list "as best as
it can based on a semi-good sequencing that is automated"...but so far
SignPuddle really needs the writers to put in the SignSpelling Sequence they
feel is best manually, because the automated choices are not as good as they
should be -
I am hoping in time that we can improve the automated listings without the
manual work, but we are not there yet, because there are still other
theories as to which SignSpelling Sequence is right and I am not sure myself
- I think all of our theories need to be tested on lots of people - can they
find signs quickly in a thick dictionary sorted by Sign-Symbols? that kind
of research needs to be done with lots of skilled signwriters to see who can
find signs in a thick dictionary the fastest, based on different sorting
methods -
So Charles, I am working on updating SignBank, a dictionary publishing
program for SignWriting, to use the ISWA 2010, and SignPuddle will be using
the ISWA 2010 in about a month or so, and when all the programs are using
the ISWA 2010, you will be able to find a list of vocabulary in SignPuddle,
export the list to SignBank, and print dictionaries sorted by
Sign-Symbol-Sequence from SignBank. Someday SignPuddle will also have the
print formats built in, but not yet ;-)
You can see a few old examples of these dictionaries produced by SignBank
years ago on this web page:
http://signbank.org/dictionaries/
Numbers 2, 3 and 5 are all PDFs that were made from a combination of
SignPuddle and SignBank - SignBank is simply a database program that accepts
the signs from SignPuddle into different print formats for printing
dictionaries both directions -
I will read your messages more carefully tomorrow morning and look forward
to it - I am sorry I must run right now ;-)
Talk to you tomorrow -
Val ;-)
------
On Dec 11, 2010, at 4:05 PM, Charles Butler wrote:
> I understand your "search by word" for practical reasons, I guess what I
am looking to would be a future in which signed language dictionaries are
just that, signed language dictionaries, not bilingual dictionaries in a
spoken language with signs attached to them.
>
> You wouldn't teach English grammar in French, nor French grammar in
English unless you intended that a person never be fluent in English alone
or French alone.
>
> So in teaching ASL, or LIBRAS, or Ethiopian Sign Language, I'm trying to
truly think in a signed language, in projection, so if I want to find a
sign, I want to look it up by handshape because I may see someone using the
sign and I have no idea, even in context, what it may mean.
>
> I got so frustrated when I was taking ASL at Gallaudet University and the
question was asked "how many signs can you think of which use the "little
finger" handshape.
>
> The lists of signs included, spaghetti, innocent, idea, draw, etc, but
every one of the lists was in English words, in what I thought was a "total
immersion" sign language class.
>
> I was the only one taking notes in sign language, so if I saw a sign I
didn't know, I tried not to ask in English, but in sign, and expected a
signed answer, not an English language answer, but the teacher, who was
native Deaf, kept on writing down English words, not what I wanted at all.
>
> Charles
>
>
> From: Stefan Wöhrmann <stefanwoehrmann at GEBAERDENSCHRIFT.DE>
> To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACC.EDU
> Sent: Sat, December 11, 2010 6:54:36 PM
> Subject: AW: AW: Creating a sign language ordered dictionary
>
> Hi Charles,
>
> thanks for your explanation.
>
> Well for practical reasons I am happy to look up a sign from „searching by
word“.
> Sometimes I feel lucky to look for signs by symbol – especially if I get a
message in ASL and have to look for the meaning of a sign.
> I see that you would love to have a dictionary in sign order. – This is
interesting.
>
> I do not know what categories would be first, second third – if I would go
to sort all the signs.
>
> Thanks for your answer.
>
> Stefan
>
>
> Von: SignWriting List : Read and Write Sign Languages
[mailto:SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACC.EDU] Im Auftrag vonCharles Butler
> Gesendet: Sonntag, 12. Dezember 2010 00:14
> An: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACC.EDU
> Betreff: Re: AW: Creating a sign language ordered dictionary
>
> Okay, when Valerie first came out with Sign Writing for Everyday Use, we
had an order to the signs within each group, following in a logical order
from straight to bent to curled. With the growth of the system, handshapes
have been added without a logical progression so that missing ones may be
inferred but there is no order to them.
>
> For a complete dictionary, in sign order, then pushing "Sign Frequency"
will print them by group and in order of the numbers of the codes, but that
coding is not consistent across the board.
>
> When I teach the system, I teach it in an order, Group 1, then Group 2,
then Group 3, then Group 4, but i also attempt to put the actual handshapes
in a logical order, and at the moment that varies from sign language to sign
language depending on which handshapes are actually used in the language.
>
> I published, some time ago, a proposed system to put
>
> 1) handshape
> 2) orientation starting from facing the reader, half left or right, back
of hand, face up, forward half left or right, face down
> 3) rotation from vertical rotating clockwise.
> 4) --- second handshape would fit here if more than one hand is in the
sign, orientation, rotation
> 4A - I put location here, Valerie puts it at the end, from her experiments
with Deaf looking up signs.
> 5) --- contact (touch, strike, brush, rub)
> 6) --- finger movement
> 7) --- vertical movement
> 8) --- horizontal movement
> 9) --- curved vertical movement
> 10) --- curved horizontal movement
> 11) --- circles
> 12) --- speed
> 13) --- facial expressions
>
> So, for example, the following are in Sign-Symbol-Sequence Order for me.
All two handed signs come after all one handed signs for the same
orientation.
>
> = Group 1, primary orientation, no movement
>
> = Group 1, primary orientation, movement vertical,
>
> = Group 1, primary orientation, first hand, group one, primary
orientation second hand, movement horizontal, facial involvement (ALL TWO
HANDED SIGNS COME AFTER ONE HANDED SIGNS)
>
> = Group 1, primary orientation, first hand, group 5, back of hand, second
hand, movement horizontal (GROUP 5 comes after GROUP 1)
>
> = Group 1, second orientation, 45 counter clockwise, circular motion,
facial involvement
>
>
> - Group 1, first hand, second orientation, 45 counter clockwise, Group 1,
crooked handshape, finger movement, finger movement. Is this before the one
above from the finger movement?
>
>
> (SKIPPING A FEW)
>
>
> = Group 5, first hand, forward, half, 45 counter clockwise, Group 5,
second hand, forward, half, 45 clockwise, held in between, forward twice
>
> Group 5, side forward, half, 45 counter clockwise, Group 5 side forward,
half, 45 clockwise, held in between, twice forward twice, slow
>
> The Sign Symbol Sequence may order the signs if each of them has been
ordered, but I have not sufficiently experimented to see if one enters signs
and then orders them by one's chosen order whether the "symbol frequency"
will follow that order.
>
>
> From: Stefan Wöhrmann <stefanwoehrmann at GEBAERDENSCHRIFT.DE>
> To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACC.EDU
> Sent: Sat, December 11, 2010 12:08:45 PM
> Subject: AW: Creating a sign language ordered dictionary
>
> Hi Charles,
>
> can you explain? I do not understand.
>
> Stefan ;-)
>
> Von: SignWriting List : Read and Write Sign Languages
[mailto:SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACC.EDU] Im Auftrag vonCharles Butler
> Gesendet: Samstag, 11. Dezember 2010 14:29
> An: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACC.EDU
> Betreff: Re: Creating a sign language ordered dictionary
>
> But can you print a dictionary from Sign Puddle in one's chosen order
without constructing it yourself? I order my dictionary down to the
individual handshape and movement, and that is all by hand.
>
> Charles
>
>
> From: Stefan Wöhrmann <stefanwoehrmann at GOOGLEMAIL.COM>
> To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACC.EDU
> Sent: Sat, December 11, 2010 2:37:24 AM
> Subject: AW: I need your help: DOS Box and SignWriter 4.4
>
> Hi Meryeme,
>
>
> I am no software expert whatsoever and it took me a long time to
understand the tricks how to install the DOS-Box proberly to work together
with the SW 4.4 Program (except for printing) . I wrote a short tutorial –
>
>
http://www.gebaerdenschrift.de/documents/dos_winxp/dos_box_installation.htm
>
> Perhaps this can support you in your efforts?
>
> In addition to that. It takes some time to become an expert with this DOS
– SignWriter 4.4 Program - you have to download and install the dictionary
...
>
> As Valerie mentioned before – the SignPuddle software allows an easy way
to create entries, to create documents, to send emails written in
SignWriting, to look up terms word – to sign order and to look up signs –
symbol –to sign order, you can search for frequencies (what are the most
often used symbols) ....
>
> Good luck
>
> Stefan
>
>
>
> Von: SignWriting List : Read and Write Sign Languages
[mailto:SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACC.EDU] Im Auftrag vonMeryeme Ayache
> Gesendet: Freitag, 10. Dezember 2010 22:04
> An: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACC.EDU
> Betreff: Re: I need your help
>
> hey Valerie and Stefan :-)
> I hope that you all are doing well. I installed the DOSbox but I have
problem in some DOS commands like 'md \sw' in order to create f directory
but I will keep trying I think that is because I am using window 7 but I am
not sure. and by the way I used the ASL SignPuddle Dictionary and I really
like but I don't wanna use it in my project because I need to enter the sign
writing manually because I have to verify first if the entered character
belong to the list of sign-writing language or not and that is what we call
it (the lexical analyzer :-) and it is the first step to realize a compiler
I will let you updated of my researches
>
> --
> Meryeme Ayache.
> Elève ingénieur ( 2ème année )
> Ecole Nationale Supérieure d'Informatique et d'Analyse des Systèmes (
Rabat ).
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