on keeping one's faith...
fernando capovilla
fcapovilla3 at GMAIL.COM
Mon Jun 6 23:58:31 UTC 2011
Dear Valerie, Stefan, Charles, Trevor, and friends:
I apologize for not being able to write more often. I am under 900 tons of
research reports now, and the pressure will remain till late December, when
the deadline is to be met. Deadlines are a gift. As implacable as they are,
at least they put an end to our interminable burden as dictionary-making
obsessive people. We are working terribly hard on the compendium of deaf
assessment, on the treatise on deaf ed, on the remaining volumes of the
encyclopedia, and on the 3rd ed. of the dictionary, which is to have 3
volumes. I have just presided a huge national congress on learning
disabilities where I presented the new paradigm on deaf assessment and deaf
literacy, which was very well received indeed. Amongst so many great
initiatives, I also talked about the wonderfully promising combination
between Valerie's SignWriting and Stefan's Mundblischift.
Every now and then I emerge to surface to breathe, and enjoy the graceful
messages that always makes me smile in contentment.
What a joy to receive all those great messages. Thanks. I enjoyed Charles'
metaphor on the Brazilian soul as being "excruciatingly polite" (a survival
stragegy considering the politicians we have down here.) I enjoyed Trevor's
kind comments on our dictionary. I do thank him very much for that. And I
would like to state that anyone of our dear members of the SW list is very
welcome to use excerpts from our dictionary or encyclopedia on Wikipedia
articles aimed at fostering SW. We are delighted to contribute and be useful
to SW and deaf education. It is a great honor for our research team down
here. I also enjoyed reading about the wonderful combination
between Valerie's SignWriting and Stefan's Mundblischift. I will devote a
large chapter on that next September, when I have to deliver a new book on
spelling under dication of orofacial reading in Portuguese, which is almost
complete (the last chapter will be on Valerie's SignWriting and Stefan's
Mundblischift, and I have to write it in a precise time frame from Sept 1st
to the 30th). In the national congress on learning disabilities I mentioned
before, I have made comments of the promising combination between Valerie's
SignWriting and Stefan's Mundblischift, and I feel that combination will be
very well received by next year, when all the seeds have begun to germinate.
The future seems to be good, indeed. After three quatrillion, nine trillion,
seven billion, five million, eight hundred, and sixty-four hits with our
heaviest of all hammers, the black solid granite block wall that separated
us from rock-solid system-knowledge seems to be finally cracking down. What
a relief we have kept our faith throughout the whole series of apparently
innocuous hits.
I shall write again by late September or early October. Best regards,
Fernando
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 13:58:28 +0100
From: Trevor Jenkins <bslwannabe at GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Wikipedia article
--485b3973ed950fa0aa04a4f68bb3
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On Sun, Jun 5, 2011 at 12:49 PM, Charles Butler <
chazzer3332000 at yahoo.com>wrote:
> This multi-faceted approach was the very one given by a British researcher
> who was touring Brazil when I was there in 2000. He went on and on about
the
> Deaf not being able to write their own language and so having a barrier to
> becoming truly bilingual, and this was with more than 100 out of the 500
> people in the lecture hall fluent in SignWriting. Everyone, as is the
> Brazilian custom, were excruciatingly polite in not contradicting a
> professor in a lecture, but people were clearly annoyed.
>
Fascinating anecdote. Of the 100 SignWriting users how many were Deaf? Or
were they all hearing signers? I suspect that the reaction here in Britain
would be similar; let him have his say and then ignore everything. It's here
that Stefan's experience is so useful. If the educators are focused so
intently upon the enclosing spoken language then sell them SignWriting (with
Mundblischift) as a way to improving the Deaf childrens' command of the
enclosing language.
Personally I'm not interested in uni-linguialism. I am passionate about true
bi-lingualism though; I want the hearies to be able to communicate with the
Deaf as opposed to the Deaf being forced to communiate at the hearing. Bell
still has a lot to answer for.
> SignWriting is finally hitting the national stage in Brazil, so I think we
> are going to be seeing a lot of changes over the years.
>
I love the LSB dictionary. (And especially that it doesn't use Stokoe
notation.) The use of cartoon and more formal pictures with SignWriting is
fantastic. It might be more appropriate to use something similar on the
(English language) WIkipedia page for SignWriting; the formal drawing of the
signed component with the corresponding SignWriting form would get around
the problem that the original poster here was raising.
Regards, Trevor.
<>< Re: deemed!
2011/6/6 SW-L automatic digest system <LISTSERV at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>
> There are 4 messages totalling 1510 lines in this issue.
>
> Topics of the day:
>
> 1. Wikipedia article (3)
> 2. Wikipedia article - Path to Literacy
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 04:49:43 -0700
> From: Charles Butler <chazzer3332000 at YAHOO.COM>
> Subject: Re: Wikipedia article
>
> --0-1479397719-1307274583=:38139
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset=iso-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> This multi-faceted approach was the very one given by a British researcher
> =
> who was touring Brazil when I was there in 2000. He went on and on about
> th=
> e Deaf not being able to write their own language and so having a barrier
> t=
> o becoming truly bilingual, and this was with more than 100 out of the 500
> =
> people in the lecture hall fluent in SignWriting. Everyone, as is the
> Brazi=
> lian custom, were excruciatingly polite in not contradicting a professor
> in=
> a lecture, but people were clearly annoyed.=A0=0A=0ASignWriting is
> finally=
> hitting the national stage in Brazil, so I think we are going to be
> seeing=
> a lot of changes over the years.=0A=0ACharles
> Butler=0A=0A=0A=0A__________=
> ______________________=0AFrom: Cherie Wren <cwterp at YAHOO.COM>=0ATo:
> SW-L at LI=
> STSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU <http://stserv.valenciacollege.edu/>=0ASent:
> Saturday, June 4, 2011 5:07 PM=0ASubject=
> : Re: Wikipedia article=0A=0A=0AShoot, I cant find it now...=A0 I had
> writt=
> en a proposal to my administration to do some research using signwriting
> to=
> teach Deaf kids.=A0 It is based on research by J Cummins who did a lot of
> =
> work with bilingual education.=A0 His research posits that there are two
> wa=
> ys to reach literacy in a second language.=A0 One way is via the spoken
> lan=
> guage.=A0 Spanish speaking kids in American schools learn to speak
> English,=
> then transfer that knowledge to learning to read and write English.=A0
> Tha=
> t doesn't work so well for Deaf kids, who have great difficulties learning
> =
> to speak a language they cant hear.=A0 The other way that Cummins proposes
> =
> is via the written form of the language.=A0 Spanish speaking kids who are
> l=
> iterate in Spanish can use written Spanish as the bridge to learning
> writte=
> n English.=A0 There is research out there that states that Cummins
> research=
> does not apply to Deaf kids--- because you can't write ASL.=A0 But you
> CAN=
> .=A0 I had hoped to do research
> showing that SignWriting could be the bridge that helps Deaf kids improve
> =
> literacy in English, but that isn't going to happen now.=A0=A0=0A=0Acherie=
> =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A>________________________________=0A>From: Charles Butler
> <c=
> hazzer3332000 at YAHOO.COM>=0A>To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU=0A>Sent:
> =
> Saturday, June 4, 2011 8:42 AM=0A>Subject: Re: Wikipedia
> article=0A>=0A>=0A=
> >My experience in teaching SignWriting to a group of Deaf and hearing
> instr=
> uctors in Ohio needs to be interjected here. The organizers of the event
> fo=
> r teachers of ASL seemed hopeful, but when the very first words were "and
> h=
> ow will this additional writing system help MY students to read English"
> wa=
> s the immediate barrier.=0A>=0A>=0A>I found myself tongue-tied and unable
> t=
> o pursue a useful conversation because every response in the room was
> stack=
> ed against me. All of them wanted the Deaf to read English in all
> circumsta=
> nces, and honestly refused to see SignWriting as a writing system for any
> s=
> igned language, a true writing system to produce one's own language
> paralle=
> l to the larger population's spoken language. =A0For more than an hour, my
> =
> lecture was peppered with questions of "why should I ADD to the burden of
> t=
> he Deaf" as if Deaf student were somehow the personal possession of the
> tea=
> chers, and they MUST use English in the long run, so why teach them to
> writ=
> e and read their own language.=A0=0A>=0A>=0A>This is in a state where
> Oberl=
> in Conservatory teaches Dance Writing, recognizing that Dance itself is a
> l=
> anguage, and you cannot describe choreography in English or any other
> langu=
> age without a way to write in a diagramatic written
> form.=A0=0A>=0A>=0A>Whe=
> n people have asked me over the years who invented SignWriting, a Deaf or
> h=
> earing person, I say neither, she is a Dancer, and Dance is a language of
> m=
> ovement, so that both the Deaf and the Hearing can be fully enfranchised
> in=
> using gesture based languages on an equal footing.=0A>=0A>=0A>Although
> one=
> can write Russian using the Roman alphabet, the Cyrillic alphabet is the
> w=
> riting system of choice because of history and
> education.=A0=0A>=0A>=0A>One=
> can write the many mutually unintelligible languages of China using a
> writ=
> ten language of pictographs which are pronounced any number of ways
> whether=
> one is speaking Mandarin, Cantonese, Sechuan, or Mongolian dialects, it
> re=
> mains itself a pictographic system not really dependent on any one of
> them.=
> =A0=0A>=0A>=0A>One can write Hindustani using the Roman alphabet, but the
> a=
> lphabet of choice is Sanskrit, used for more than 3000
> years.=A0=0A>=0A>=0A=
> >So now we have SignWriting, able to be used for all movement based
> languag=
> es, I believe, in a way that is much better than any other as it is
> iconogr=
> aphic so that it is not dependent on spoken language to be
> read.=A0=0A>=0A>=
> =0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>________________________________=0A>From: Trevor Jenkins
> <b=
> slwannabe at GMAIL.COM>=0A>To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU=0A>Sent:
> Satu=
> rday, June 4, 2011 7:11 AM=0A>Subject: Re: Wikipedia article=0A>=0A>=0A>A
> b=
> etter comparison for the content of the SignWriting page on the English
> lan=
> guage WikiPedia page would be the pages for Arabic, Hebrew, Chinese,
> Japane=
> se, Linear B, Klingon, Na'vi and other orthographic systems. We need to be
> =
> clear that SignWriting is nothing more than a writing scheme for signed
> lan=
> guages. In the same way that Chinese calligraphy is a writing scheme for
> sp=
> oken Chinese and similar for other spoken languages with non-Latinate
> ortho=
> graphies.=0A>=0A>Personally I consider SignWriting to be closer in purpose
> =
> to IPA (International Phonetic Alphabet) than to written English.
> Lexicogra=
> phers might disagree with me and suggest that Stokoe notation is the
> obviou=
> s parallel to IPA. Though here as a native English speaker and second
> langu=
> age British Sign Language speaker I would contend that the reliance on ASL
> =
> fingerspelling shapes names in Stokoe, and the use of Latinate symbols in
> I=
> PA for that matter, are a hinderance to learning the notation. There is,
> of=
> course, a similar problem with SignWriting as many of the training
> materia=
> ls are written using ASL as an exemplar. The iconic nature of SignWriting
> a=
> llows one to get around the problem, which a non-Latinate reader would not
> =
> be able to do with IPA. I could just as easily say that HamNoSys is the
> IPA=
> of signed languages but the point is that the written critical form of
> spo=
> ken languages often bears no relation to the way strings are actually
> prono=
> unced.=0A (One only has to consider the lyrics of the Gershwins' song
> "Let'=
> s call the whole thing off" to see what a mess standard English
> orthography=
> makes of pronounciation.)=0A>=0A>However, in one sense I agree with you;
> t=
> he use of an ASL story gives the wrong impression of SignWriting ... that
> i=
> t is solely for ASL. As Val has pointed out (thanks Val for correcting my
> p=
> oor history of the genesis of SignWriting) this orthography is applicable
> t=
> o all signed languages and manual communication systems.=0A>=0A>=0A>On
> Fri,=
> Jun 3, 2011 at 11:21 PM, George Veronis <george.veronis at yale.edu> wrote:=
> =0A>=0A>A number of people responded to my suggestion about signwriting
> (SW=
> ). =A0Only two of them understood where I was coming from and why I made
> th=
> e suggestion that a simpler, more straightforward piece is called for in
> th=
> e=A0Wikipedia article. =A0Valerie Sutton mentioned the origins of SW and
> ho=
> w it arose from someone without a background in sign language. =A0I think
> t=
> hat all of the respondents should read and think about what she wrote
> becau=
> se at the time she was also not involved in SW as it has developed. =A0The
> =
> other person who made very pertinent remarks is Stuart Thiessen, who went
> t=
> hrough the same experience that I have, viz., very little knowledge at a
> ve=
> ry early stage of learning ASL. =A0He, too, needed responses to questions
> t=
> hat arose from very little experience with ASL=0A>>=0A>>I think that
> commun=
> ication itself must be handled with care. =A0One has to take the time and
> t=
> rouble to understand the basis and the reason for remarks made and
> question=
> s asked. =A0The article in Wikipedia is in the English language and the
> top=
> ics contained therein are intended for English speaking people. =A0I wrote
> =
> as an English speaker and relatively ignorant ASL user who was trying to
> un=
> derstand an esoteric=A0=0A>>topic. =A0All of=A0you must have been
> confronte=
> d with "Why signwriting - why don't they just use the text?". =A0That's a
> v=
> ery understandable question for someone with little or no training in sign
> =
> language and with no experience with deaf people.=A0I have attended a
> total=
> of 12 classes in ASL; for my final exam I decided to try to convey to the
> =
> class that something called signwriting exists. =A0No one in a class of
> fif=
> teen, not even the teacher, had ever heard of signwriting. =A0So those of
> y=
> ou who have been involved with SW for a long time should keep in mind that
> =
> there is a world of people who might want to know about SW and who will
> pro=
> bably ask very simple and elementary questions, as I did.
> =A0=0A>>=0A>>=0A>=
> >Given what I just wrote, I would like to suggest that a statement like
> the=
> one that Adam Frost made:=0A>>Having a literal translation will actually
> b=
> e seen as an insult, especially to native users, and will make SignWriting
> =
> seem to be an oppressors tool to limit how Sign Language is used=A0=A0must
> =
> be directed to an audience very different from the vast majority of users
> o=
> f Wikipedia. =A0I was completely perplexed by it=0A>>and it was only after
> =
> thinking hard about how in world anyone could misconstrue my simple
> suggest=
> ion that I realized how delicate the issue of communication is and how
> hard=
> we have to think about the source of the question. =A0Without giving the
> i=
> ssue serious consideration, the two sides, experienced SW users and those
> s=
> eeking to understand what SW is all about, will never make contact and
> that=
> would be a pity. =A0But as long as people like Thiessen and Sutton are
> inv=
> olved, there is hope that the issue will not get too far out of
> control.=0A=
> >>=0A>>=0A>>With serious good intentions,=0A>>George Veronis =A0=0A>>=0A>>=
> =0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>=0A>=0A>-- =0A>Regards, Trevor.=0A>=0A><><
> Re:=
> deemed!=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>
> --0-1479397719-1307274583=:38139
> Content-Type: text/html;
> charset=iso-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> <html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff;
> font-family:ar=
> ial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><div><span>This multi-faceted
> ap=
> proach was the very one given by a British researcher who was touring
> Brazi=
> l when I was there in 2000. He went on and on about the Deaf not being
> able=
> to write their own language and so having a barrier to becoming truly
> bili=
> ngual, and this was with more than 100 out of the 500 people in the
> lecture=
> hall fluent in SignWriting. Everyone, as is the Brazilian custom, were
> exc=
> ruciatingly polite in not contradicting a professor in a lecture, but
> peopl=
> e were clearly
> annoyed. </span></div><div><span><br></span></div><div>=
> <span>SignWriting is finally hitting the national stage in Brazil, so I
> thi=
> nk we are going to be seeing a lot of changes over the
> years.</span></div><=
> div><span><br></span></div><div><span>Charles
> Butler</span></div><div><span=
> ><br></span></div><div><br></div><div style=3D"font-size: 12pt;
> font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; "><div style=3D"font-size:
> 12pt=
> ; font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; "><font
> size=3D=
> "2" face=3D"Arial"><hr size=3D"1"><b><span
> style=3D"font-weight:bold;">From=
> :</span></b> Cherie Wren <cwterp at YAHOO.COM><br><b><span
> style=3D"font=
> -weight: bold;">To:</span></b> SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
> <br><b><spa=
> n style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Saturday, June 4, 2011
> 5:07=
> PM<br><b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re:
> Wikipe=
> dia article<br></font><br>=0A<div id=3D"yiv25073643"><div style=3D"color:
> r=
> gb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-size: 12pt;
> font-fa=
> mily: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; "><div><span>Shoot, I cant find it
> now.=
> .. I had written a proposal to my administration to do some research
> =
> using signwriting to teach Deaf kids. It is based on research by J
> Cu=
> mmins who did a lot of work with bilingual education. His research
> po=
> sits that there are two ways to reach literacy in a second language.
> =
> One way is via the spoken language. Spanish speaking kids in
> American=
> schools learn to speak English, then transfer that knowledge to learning
> t=
> o read and write English. That doesn't work so well for Deaf kids,
> wh=
> o have great difficulties learning to speak a language they cant
> hear. =
> ; The other way that Cummins proposes is via the written form of the
> langua=
> ge. Spanish speaking kids who are literate in Spanish can use
> written=
> Spanish as the bridge to
> learning written English. There=0A is research out there that
> states=
> that Cummins research does not apply to Deaf kids--- because you can't
> wri=
> te ASL. But you CAN. I had hoped to do research showing that
> Si=
> gnWriting could be the bridge that helps Deaf kids improve literacy in
> Engl=
> ish, but that isn't going to happen
> now. </span></div><div><br><=
> span></span></div><div><span>cherie<br></span></div><div><br><blockquote
> st=
> yle=3D"border-left:2px solid rgb(16, 16,
> 255);margin-left:5px;padding-left:=
> 5px;"><div style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: arial, helvetica,
> sans-se=
> rif; "><div style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'times new roman', 'new
> =
> york', times, serif; "><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><hr
> size=3D"1"><b><s=
> pan style=3D"font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Charles Butler
> <chazzer=
> 3332000 at YAHOO.COM><br><b><span
> style=3D"font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b=
> > SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU<br><b><span
> style=3D"font-weight:bold;"=
> >Sent:</span></b> Saturday, June 4, 2011 8:42=0A AM<br><b><span
> style=3D"fo=
> nt-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: Wikipedia article<br></font><br>=
> =0A<div id=3D"yiv25073643"><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
> background-co=
> lor: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-size: 12pt; font-family: arial, helvetica,
> sa=
> ns-serif; "><div>My experience in teaching SignWriting to a group of Deaf
> a=
> nd hearing instructors in Ohio needs to be interjected here. The
> organizers=
> of the event for teachers of ASL seemed hopeful, but when the very first
> w=
> ords were "and how will this additional writing system help MY students to
> =
> read English" was the immediate barrier.</div><div><br></div><div>I found
> m=
> yself tongue-tied and unable to pursue a useful conversation because every
> =
> response in the room was stacked against me. All of them wanted the Deaf
> to=
> read English in all circumstances, and honestly refused to see
> SignWriting=
> as a writing system for any signed language, a true writing system to
> prod=
> uce one's own language parallel to the larger population's spoken
> language.=
> For more than an hour, my lecture was peppered with questions of
> "why should I ADD to the burden=0A of the=0A Deaf" as if Deaf student
> were=
> somehow the personal possession of the teachers, and they MUST use
> English=
> in the long run, so why teach them to write and read their own
> language.&n=
> bsp;</div><div><br></div><div>This is in a state where Oberlin
> Conservatory=
> teaches Dance Writing, recognizing that Dance itself is a language, and
> yo=
> u cannot describe choreography in English or any other language without a
> w=
> ay to write in a diagramatic written
> form. </div><div><br></div><div>W=
> hen people have asked me over the years who invented SignWriting, a Deaf
> or=
> hearing person, I say neither, she is a Dancer, and Dance is a language
> of=
> movement, so that both the Deaf and the Hearing can be fully enfranchised
> =
> in using gesture based languages on an equal
> footing.</div><div><br></div><=
> div>Although one can write Russian using the Roman alphabet, the Cyrillic
> a=
> lphabet is the writing system of choice because of history and
> education.&n=
> bsp;</div><div><br></div><div>One can=0A write the many mutually
> unintellig=
> ible languages of China using a written language of pictographs which are
> p=
> ronounced any number of ways whether one is speaking Mandarin, Cantonese,
> S=
> echuan, or Mongolian dialects, it remains itself a pictographic system not
> =
> really dependent on any one of them. </div><div><br></div><div>One
> can=
> write Hindustani using the Roman alphabet, but the alphabet of choice is
> S=
> anskrit, used for more than 3000 years. </div><div><br></div><div>So
> n=
> ow we have SignWriting, able to be used for all movement based languages,
> I=
> believe, in a way that is much better than any other as it is
> iconographic=
> so that it is not dependent on spoken language to be
> read. </div><div=
> ><br></div><div><br></div><div style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family:
> arial=
> , helvetica, sans-serif; "><div style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family:
> time=
> s, serif; "><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><hr size=3D"1"><b><span style=
> =3D"font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Trevor
> Jenkins=0A <bslwannabe at GMAIL.COM><br><b><span
> style=3D"font-weight:b=
> old;">To:</span></b> SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU<br><b><span
> style=3D=
> "font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Saturday, June 4, 2011 7:11
> AM<br><b><=
> span style=3D"font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: Wikipedia
> article<=
> br></font><br>=0A<div id=3D"yiv25073643">A better comparison for the
> conten=
> t of the SignWriting page on the English language WikiPedia page would be
> t=
> he pages for Arabic, Hebrew, Chinese, Japanese, Linear B, Klingon, Na'vi
> an=
> d other <b>orthographic systems</b>. We need to be clear that SignWriting
> i=
> s nothing more than a writing scheme for signed languages. In the same way
> =
> that Chinese calligraphy is a writing scheme for spoken Chinese and
> similar=
> for other spoken languages with non-Latinate
> orthographies.<br>=0A<br>Pers=
> onally I consider SignWriting to be closer in purpose to IPA
> (International=
> Phonetic Alphabet) than to written English. Lexicographers might disagree
> =
> with me and suggest that Stokoe notation is the obvious parallel to IPA.
> Th=
> ough here as a native English speaker and second language British Sign
> Lang=
> uage speaker I would contend that the reliance on ASL fingerspelling
> shapes=
> names in Stokoe, and the use of Latinate symbols in IPA for that matter,
> a=
> re a hinderance to learning the notation. There is, of course, a similar
> pr=
> oblem with SignWriting as many of the training materials are written using
> =
> ASL as an exemplar. The iconic nature of SignWriting allows one to get
> arou=
> nd the problem, which a non-Latinate reader would not be able to do with
> IP=
> A. I could just as easily say that HamNoSys is the IPA of signed languages
> =
> but the point is that the written critical form of spoken languages often
> b=
> ears no relation to the way strings are actually pronounced.=0A (One only
> h=
> as to consider the lyrics of the Gershwins' song "Let's call the whole
> thin=
> g off" to see what a mess standard English orthography makes of
> pronounciat=
> ion.)<br>=0A<br>However, in one sense I agree with you; the use of an ASL
> s=
> tory gives the wrong impression of SignWriting ... that it is solely for
> AS=
> L. As Val has pointed out (thanks Val for correcting my poor history of
> the=
> genesis of SignWriting) this orthography is applicable to all signed
> langu=
> ages and manual communication systems.<br>=0A<br><div
> class=3D"yiv25073643g=
> mail_quote">On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 11:21 PM, George Veronis <span
> dir=3D"lt=
> r"><<a rel=3D"nofollow" ymailto=3D"mailto:george.veronis at yale.edu"
> targe=
> t=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:george.veronis at yale.edu
> ">george.veronis at yale.ed=
> u</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"yiv25073643gmail_quote"
> sty=
> le=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
> solid;padding-left:1ex;">=0A<d=
> iv style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;">A number of people responded to my
> sugge=
> stion about signwriting (SW). Only two of them understood where I
> was=
> coming from and why I made the suggestion that a simpler, more
> straightfor=
> ward piece is called for in the Wikipedia article. Valerie
> Sutto=
> n mentioned the origins of SW and how it arose from someone without a
> backg=
> round in sign language. I think that all of the respondents should
> re=
> ad and think about what she wrote because at the time she was also not
> invo=
> lved in SW as it has developed. The other person who made very
> pertin=
> ent remarks is Stuart Thiessen, who went through the same experience that
> I=
> have, viz., very little knowledge at a very early stage of learning ASL.
> &=
> nbsp;He, too, needed responses to questions that arose from very little
> exp=
> erience with ASL<div>=0A<div> <span style=3D"border-collapse: separate;
> col=
> or: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
> no=
> rmal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px;
> text-t=
> ransform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; font-size: medium;
> =
> font-family: Geneva; "><div>=0A<br>I think that communication itself must
> b=
> e handled with care. One has to take the time and trouble to
> understa=
> nd the basis and the reason for remarks made and questions asked.
> The=
> article in Wikipedia is in the English language and the topics contained
> t=
> herein are intended for English speaking people. I wrote as an
> Englis=
> h speaker and relatively ignorant ASL user who was trying to understand an
> =
> esoteric </div>=0A<div>topic. All of you must have been
> con=
> fronted with "Why signwriting - why don't they just use the text?".
> T=
> hat's a very understandable question for someone with little or no
> training=
> in sign language and with no experience with deaf people. I have
> atte=
> nded a total of 12 classes in ASL; for my final exam I decided to try to
> co=
> nvey to the class that something called signwriting exists. No one
> in=
> a class of fifteen, not even the teacher, had ever heard of signwriting.
> &=
> nbsp;So those of you who have been involved with SW for a long time should
> =
> keep in mind that there is a world of people who might want to know about
> S=
> W and who will probably ask very simple and elementary questions, as I
> did.=
> </div>=0A<div><br></div><div>Given what I just wrote, I would like
> t=
> o suggest that a statement like the one that Adam Frost
> made:</div><div><fo=
> nt color=3D"#1B00FF">Having a literal translation will actually be seen as
> =
> an insult, especially to native users, and will make SignWriting seem to
> be=
> an oppressors tool to limit how Sign Language is
> used </font>mu=
> st be directed to an audience very different from the vast majority of
> user=
> s of Wikipedia. I was completely perplexed by it</div>=0A<div>and it
> =
> was only after thinking hard about how in world anyone could misconstrue
> my=
> simple suggestion that I realized how delicate the issue of communication
> =
> is and how hard we have to think about the source of the question.
> Wi=
> thout giving the issue serious consideration, the two sides, experienced
> SW=
> users and those seeking to understand what SW is all about, will never
> mak=
> e contact and that would be a pity. But as long as people like
> Thiess=
> en and Sutton are involved, there is hope that the issue will not get too
> f=
> ar out of control.</div>=0A<div><br></div><div>With serious good
> intentions=
> ,</div><div>George Veronis </div><font
> color=3D"#888888"><div><br></d=
>
> iv><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></font></span></div></div><=
> /div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all">=0A<br>-- <br>Regards,
> Trevor=
> .<br><br><>< Re:
> deemed!<br>=0A</div><br><br></div></div></div></d=
>
> iv><br><br></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div><br><br></div></div><=
> /div></body></html>
> --0-1479397719-1307274583=:38139--
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 13:58:28 +0100
> From: Trevor Jenkins <bslwannabe at GMAIL.COM>
> Subject: Re: Wikipedia article
>
> --485b3973ed950fa0aa04a4f68bb3
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset=iso-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> On Sun, Jun 5, 2011 at 12:49 PM, Charles Butler <chazzer3332000 at yahoo.com
> >wrote:
>
> > This multi-faceted approach was the very one given by a British
> researcher
> > who was touring Brazil when I was there in 2000. He went on and on about
> the
> > Deaf not being able to write their own language and so having a barrier
> to
> > becoming truly bilingual, and this was with more than 100 out of the 500
> > people in the lecture hall fluent in SignWriting. Everyone, as is the
> > Brazilian custom, were excruciatingly polite in not contradicting a
> > professor in a lecture, but people were clearly annoyed.
> >
>
> Fascinating anecdote. Of the 100 SignWriting users how many were Deaf? Or
> were they all hearing signers? I suspect that the reaction here in Britain
> would be similar; let him have his say and then ignore everything. It's
> here
> that Stefan's experience is so useful. If the educators are focused so
> intently upon the enclosing spoken language then sell them SignWriting
> (with
> Mundblischift) as a way to improving the Deaf childrens' command of the
> enclosing language.
>
> Personally I'm not interested in uni-linguialism. I am passionate about
> true
> bi-lingualism though; I want the hearies to be able to communicate with the
> Deaf as opposed to the Deaf being forced to communiate at the hearing. Bell
> still has a lot to answer for.
>
>
> > SignWriting is finally hitting the national stage in Brazil, so I think
> we
> > are going to be seeing a lot of changes over the years.
> >
>
> I love the LSB dictionary. (And especially that it doesn't use Stokoe
> notation.) The use of cartoon and more formal pictures with SignWriting is
> fantastic. It might be more appropriate to use something similar on the
> (English language) WIkipedia page for SignWriting; the formal drawing of
> the
> signed component with the corresponding SignWriting form would get around
> the problem that the original poster here was raising.
>
> Regards, Trevor.
>
> <>< Re: deemed!
>
> --485b3973ed950fa0aa04a4f68bb3
> Content-Type: text/html;
> charset=iso-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> On Sun, Jun 5, 2011 at 12:49 PM, Charles Butler <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a
> hr=
> ef=3D"mailto:chazzer3332000 at yahoo.com">chazzer3332000 at yahoo.com
> </a>></sp=
> an> wrote:<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"
> =
> style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
> <div><div style=3D"color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:arial,
> helv=
> etica, sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><div><span>This multi-faceted approach
> wa=
> s the very one given by a British researcher who was touring Brazil when I
> =
> was there in 2000. He went on and on about the Deaf not being able to
> write=
> their own language and so having a barrier to becoming truly bilingual,
> an=
> d this was with more than 100 out of the 500 people in the lecture hall
> flu=
> ent in SignWriting. Everyone, as is the Brazilian custom, were
> excruciating=
> ly polite in not contradicting a professor in a lecture, but people were
> cl=
> early annoyed.=A0</span></div>
> </div></div></blockquote><div><br>Fascinating anecdote. Of the 100
> SignWrit=
> ing users how many were Deaf? Or were they all hearing signers? I suspect
> t=
> hat the reaction here in Britain would be similar; let him have his say
> and=
> then ignore everything. It's here that Stefan's experience is so
> u=
> seful. If the educators are focused so intently upon the enclosing spoken
> l=
> anguage then sell them SignWriting (with Mundblischift) as a way to
> improvi=
> ng the Deaf childrens' command of the enclosing language.<br>
> <br>Personally I'm not interested in uni-linguialism. I am passionate
> a=
> bout true bi-lingualism though; I want the hearies to be able to
> communicat=
> e with the Deaf as opposed to the Deaf being forced to communiate at the
> he=
> aring. Bell still has a lot to answer for.<br>
> =A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt
> 0.8=
> ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left:
> 1ex;"><div><di=
> v style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);
> font-=
> family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">
> <div><span>SignWriting is finally hitting the national stage in Brazil, so
> =
> I think we are going to be seeing a lot of changes over the
> years.</span></=
> div></div></div></blockquote><div><br>I love the LSB dictionary. (And
> espec=
> ially that it doesn't use Stokoe notation.) The use of cartoon and
> more=
> formal pictures with=A0 SignWriting is fantastic. It might be more
> appropr=
> iate to use something similar on the (English language) WIkipedia page for
> =
> SignWriting; the formal drawing of the signed component with the
> correspond=
> ing SignWriting form would get around the problem that the original poster
> =
> here was raising.<br>
> </div><div><br></div></div>Regards, Trevor.<br><br><>< Re:
> deemed!=
> <br>
>
> --485b3973ed950fa0aa04a4f68bb3--
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 06:44:23 -0700
> From: Yuri Barreto <nempretonembranco at YAHOO.COM.BR>
> Subject: Re: Wikipedia article
>
> --0-1022750816-1307281463=:85875
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset=utf-8
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> The issue=C2=A0of=C2=A0SW,=C2=A0for=C2=A0me,=C2=A0is=C2=A0its=C2=A0use=C2=
> =A0as a tool=C2=A0for cognitive development=C2=A0of=C2=A0the deaf.
>
> The=C2=A0listener=C2=A0develops=C2=A0much=C2=A0when=C2=A0expressed orally=
> =C2=A0and=C2=A0in writing.=C2=A0That's=C2=A0a=C2=A0fact.=C2=A0Andlearn=C2=
> =A0a=C2=A0second,=C2=A0third and
> many=C2=A0other=C2=A0languages=E2=80=8B=E2=
> =80=8B, based on=C2=A0language
> developmentfavored=C2=A0by=C2=A0their=C2=A0m=
> other tongue.
>
> Today=C2=A0we understand=C2=A0the concept=C2=A0of "deaf culture",=C2=A0but=
> =C2=A0still=C2=A0expects=C2=A0the integration=C2=A0of
> the=C2=A0deaf=C2=A0so=
> ciety=C2=A0mostly=C2=A0listener=C2=A0will be better=C2=A0in=C2=A0case they=
> =C2=A0dominate=C2=A0at least=C2=A0the=C2=A0writtenform=C2=A0of=C2=A0spoken
> =
> language.
>
> Among=C2=A0other=C2=A0writing systems=C2=A0of
> signs,=C2=A0SW=C2=A0is=C2=A0s=
> hown=C2=A0as=C2=A0"visual"=C2=A0and=C2=A0"accessible"=C2=A0to the deaf.=C2=
> =A0Alphabetic systems=C2=A0adopted in=C2=A0each=C2=A0country=C2=A0leads=C2=
> =A0directly=C2=A0(or near)=C2=A0thesound=C2=A0coming out=C2=A0of=C2=A0the
> m=
> outh.
>
>
> To=C2=A0learn=C2=A0"another=C2=A0language",=C2=A0the=C2=A0first=C2=A0native=
> language.=C2=A0I
> believe=C2=A0that=C2=A0after=C2=A0decades=C2=A0ofstudy=C2=
> =A0and=C2=A0suffering=C2=A0of deaf people=C2=A0worldwide, this=C2=A0should=
> =C2=A0be seen=C2=A0as=C2=A0a
> rule,=C2=A0all=C2=A0guidedand=C2=A0educational=
> policies=C2=A0for these=C2=A0people.
> I believe it is=C2=A0one=C2=A0of the=C2=A0Brazilians=C2=A0who=C2=A0believe=
> =C2=A0in=C2=A0bilingualism=C2=A0in addition to
> the=C2=A0SW.Gradually=C2=A0t=
> he=C2=A0deaf=C2=A0is=C2=A0being politicized=C2=A0and=C2=A0"interfering"=C2=
> =A0in the educational system.
>
> Yuri=C2=A0Barreto
>
> --- Em dom, 5/6/11, Charles Butler <chazzer3332000 at YAHOO.COM> escreveu:
>
> De: Charles Butler <chazzer3332000 at YAHOO.COM>
> Assunto: Re: Wikipedia article
> Para: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
> Data: Domingo, 5 de Junho de 2011, 8:49
>
> This multi-faceted approach was the very one given by a British researcher
> =
> who was touring Brazil when I was there in 2000. He went on and on about
> th=
> e Deaf not being able to write their own language and so having a barrier
> t=
> o becoming truly bilingual, and this was with more than 100 out of the 500
> =
> people in the lecture hall fluent in SignWriting. Everyone, as is the
> Brazi=
> lian custom, were excruciatingly polite in not contradicting a professor
> in=
> a lecture, but people were clearly annoyed.=C2=A0
> SignWriting is finally hitting the national stage in Brazil, so I think we
> =
> are going to be seeing a lot of changes over the years.
> Charles Butler
>
> From: Cherie Wren <cwterp at YAHOO.COM>
> To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
> Sent: Saturday, June 4, 2011 5:07 PM
> Subject: Re: Wikipedia article
>
> =0AShoot, I cant find it now...=C2=A0 I had written a proposal to my
> admini=
> stration to do some research using signwriting to teach Deaf kids.=C2=A0
> It=
> is based on research by J Cummins who did a lot of work with bilingual
> edu=
> cation.=C2=A0 His research posits that there are two ways to reach
> literacy=
> in a second language.=C2=A0 One way is via the spoken language.=C2=A0
> Span=
> ish speaking kids in American schools learn to speak English, then
> transfer=
> that knowledge to learning to read and write English.=C2=A0 That doesn't
> w=
> ork so well for Deaf kids, who have great difficulties learning to speak a
> =
> language they cant hear.=C2=A0 The other way that Cummins proposes is via
> t=
> he written form of the language.=C2=A0 Spanish speaking kids who are
> litera=
> te in Spanish can use written Spanish as the bridge to=0A learning written
> =
> English.=C2=A0 There=0A is research out there that states that Cummins
> rese=
> arch does not apply to Deaf kids--- because you can't write ASL.=C2=A0 But
> =
> you CAN.=C2=A0 I had hoped to do research showing that SignWriting could
> be=
> the bridge that helps Deaf kids improve literacy in English, but that
> isn'=
> t going to happen now.=C2=A0=C2=A0
> cherie
>
> From: Charles Butler <chazzer3332000 at YAHOO.COM>
> To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
> Sent: Saturday, June 4, 2011 8:42=0A AM
> Subject: Re: Wikipedia article
>
> =0AMy experience in teaching SignWriting to a group of Deaf and hearing
> ins=
> tructors in Ohio needs to be interjected here. The organizers of the event
> =
> for teachers of ASL seemed hopeful, but when the very first words were
> "and=
> how will this additional writing system help MY students to read English"
> =
> was the immediate barrier.
> I found myself tongue-tied and unable to pursue a useful conversation
> becau=
> se every response in the room was stacked against me. All of them wanted
> th=
> e Deaf to read English in all circumstances, and honestly refused to see
> Si=
> gnWriting as a writing system for any signed language, a true writing
> syste=
> m to produce one's own language parallel to the larger population's spoken
> =
> language. =C2=A0For more than an hour, my lecture was peppered with
> questio=
> ns of=0A "why should I ADD to the burden=0A of the=0A Deaf" as if Deaf
> stud=
> ent were somehow the personal possession of the teachers, and they MUST
> use=
> English in the long run, so why teach them to write and read their own
> lan=
> guage.=C2=A0
> This is in a state where Oberlin Conservatory teaches Dance Writing,
> recogn=
> izing that Dance itself is a language, and you cannot describe
> choreography=
> in English or any other language without a way to write in a diagramatic
> w=
> ritten form.=C2=A0
> When people have asked me over the years who invented SignWriting, a Deaf
> o=
> r hearing person, I say neither, she is a Dancer, and Dance is a language
> o=
> f movement, so that both the Deaf and the Hearing can be fully
> enfranchised=
> in using gesture based languages on an equal footing.
> Although one can write Russian using the Roman alphabet, the Cyrillic
> alpha=
> bet is the writing system of choice because of history and education.=C2=A0
> One can=0A write the many mutually unintelligible languages of China using
> =
> a written language of pictographs which are pronounced any number of ways
> w=
> hether one is speaking Mandarin, Cantonese, Sechuan, or Mongolian
> dialects,=
> it remains itself a pictographic system not really dependent on any one
> of=
> them.=C2=A0
> One can write Hindustani using the Roman alphabet, but the alphabet of
> choi=
> ce is Sanskrit, used for more than 3000 years.=C2=A0
> So now we have SignWriting, able to be used for all movement based
> language=
> s, I believe, in a way that is much better than any other as it is
> iconogra=
> phic so that it is not dependent on spoken language to be read.=C2=A0
>
> From: Trevor=0A Jenkins=0A <bslwannabe at GMAIL.COM>
> To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
> Sent: Saturday, June 4, 2011 7:11 AM
> Subject: Re: Wikipedia article
>
> =0AA better comparison for the content of the SignWriting page on the
> Engli=
> sh language WikiPedia page would be the pages for Arabic, Hebrew, Chinese,
> =
> Japanese, Linear B, Klingon, Na'vi and other orthographic systems. We need
> =
> to be clear that SignWriting is nothing more than a writing scheme for
> sign=
> ed languages. In the same way that Chinese calligraphy is a writing scheme
> =
> for spoken Chinese and similar for other spoken languages with
> non-Latinate=
> orthographies.
> =0A
> Personally I consider SignWriting to be closer in purpose to IPA
> (Internati=
> onal Phonetic Alphabet) than to written English. Lexicographers might
> disag=
> ree with me and suggest that Stokoe notation is the obvious parallel to
> IPA=
> . Though here as a native English speaker and second language British Sign
> =
> Language speaker I would contend that the reliance on ASL fingerspelling
> sh=
> apes names in Stokoe, and the use of Latinate symbols in IPA for that
> matte=
> r, are a hinderance to learning the notation. There is, of course, a
> simila=
> r problem with SignWriting as many of the training materials are written
> us=
> ing ASL as an exemplar. The iconic nature of SignWriting allows one to get
> =
> around the problem, which a non-Latinate reader would not be able to do
> wit=
> h IPA. I could just as easily say that HamNoSys is the IPA of signed
> langua=
> ges but the point is that the written critical form of spoken languages
> oft=
> en bears no relation to the way strings are actually pronounced.=0A (One
> on=
> ly has to consider the lyrics of the Gershwins' song "Let's call the whole
> =
> thing off" to see what a mess standard English orthography makes of
> pronoun=
> ciation.)
> =0A
> However, in one sense I agree with you; the use of an ASL story gives the
> w=
> rong impression of SignWriting ... that it is solely for ASL. As Val has
> po=
> inted out (thanks Val for correcting my poor history of the genesis of
> Sign=
> Writing) this orthography is applicable to all signed languages and manual
> =
> communication systems.
> =0A
> On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 11:21 PM, George Veronis <george.veronis at yale.edu>
> w=
> rote:
> =0AA number of people responded to my suggestion about signwriting (SW). =
> =C2=A0Only two of them understood where I was coming from and why I made
> th=
> e suggestion that a simpler, more straightforward piece is called for in
> th=
> e=C2=A0Wikipedia article. =C2=A0Valerie Sutton mentioned the origins of SW
> =
> and how it arose from someone without a background in sign language.
> =C2=A0=
> I think that all of the respondents should read and think about what she
> wr=
> ote because at the time she was also not involved in SW as it has
> developed=
> . =C2=A0The other person who made very pertinent remarks is Stuart
> Thiessen=
> , who went through the same experience that I have, viz., very little
> knowl=
> edge at a very early stage of learning ASL. =C2=A0He, too, needed
> responses=
> to questions that arose from very little experience with ASL=0A =0A
> I think that communication itself must be handled with care. =C2=A0One has
> =
> to take the time and trouble to understand the basis and the reason for
> rem=
> arks made and questions asked. =C2=A0The article in Wikipedia is in the
> Eng=
> lish language and the topics contained therein are intended for English
> spe=
> aking people. =C2=A0I wrote as an English speaker and relatively ignorant
> A=
> SL user who was trying to understand an esoteric=C2=A0=0Atopic. =C2=A0All
> o=
> f=C2=A0you must have been confronted with "Why signwriting - why don't
> they=
> just use the text?". =C2=A0That's a very understandable question for
> someo=
> ne with little or no training in sign language and with no experience with
> =
> deaf people.=C2=A0I have attended a total of 12 classes in ASL; for my
> fina=
> l exam I decided to try to convey to the class that something called
> signwr=
> iting exists. =C2=A0No one in a class of fifteen, not even the teacher,
> had=
> ever heard of signwriting. =C2=A0So those of you who have been involved
> wi=
> th SW for a long time should keep in mind that there is a world of people
> w=
> ho might want to know about SW and who will probably ask very simple and
> el=
> ementary questions, as I did. =C2=A0=0A
> Given what I just wrote, I would like to suggest that a statement like the
> =
> one that Adam Frost made:Having a literal translation will actually be
> seen=
> as an insult, especially to native users, and will make SignWriting seem
> t=
> o be an oppressors tool to limit how Sign Language is used=C2=A0=C2=A0must
> =
> be directed to an audience very different from the vast majority of users
> o=
> f Wikipedia. =C2=A0I was completely perplexed by it=0Aand it was only
> after=
> thinking hard about how in world anyone could misconstrue my simple
> sugges=
> tion that I realized how delicate the issue of communication is and how
> har=
> d we have to think about the source of the question. =C2=A0Without giving
> t=
> he issue serious consideration, the two sides, experienced SW users and
> tho=
> se seeking to understand what SW is all about, will never make contact and
> =
> that would be a pity. =C2=A0But as long as people like Thiessen and Sutton
> =
> are involved, there is hope that the issue will not get too far out of
> cont=
> rol.=0A
> With serious good intentions,George Veronis =C2=A0
>
>
>
>
>
> =0A
> --=20
> Regards, Trevor.
>
> <>< Re: deemed!
> =0A
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --0-1022750816-1307281463=:85875
> Content-Type: text/html;
> charset=utf-8
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> <table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0" ><tr><td
> valign=3D"=
> top" style=3D"font: inherit;"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span"
> style=3D"fon=
> t-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; "><span class=3D"hps" title=
> =3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">The
> issue</span>&=
> nbsp;<span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es
> a=
> lternativas">of</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para
> mostra=
> r tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">SW</span><span title=3D"Clique para
> mos=
> trar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas" class=3D"">,</span> <span
> class=
> =3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es
> alternativas">for=
> </span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=
> =C3=B5es alternativas">me,</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique
> =
> para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">is</span> <span class=
> =3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es
> alternativas">its=
> </span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=
> =C3=B5es alternativas">use</span> <span
> class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es
> alternativa=
> s">as a tool</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar
> t=
> radu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">for cognitive
> development</span> <spa=
> n class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es
> alternativ=
> as">of</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=
> =C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">the deaf.</span><br class=3D""
> title=3D"Clique=
> para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas"><br class=3D""
> title=3D"Cli=
> que para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas"><span class=3D"hps"
> titl=
> e=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es
> alternativas">The</span> =
> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es
> altern=
> ativas">listener</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para
> mostr=
> ar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">develops</span> <span
> class=3D"hp=
> s" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es
> alternativas">much</spa=
> n> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar
> tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5e=
> s alternativas">when</span> <span class=3D"hps"
> title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">expressed
> o=
> rally</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar
> tradu=C3=
> =A7=C3=B5es alternativas">and</span> <span class=3D"hps"
> title=3D"Cliq=
> ue para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">in writing</span><span
> ti=
> tle=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas"
> class=3D"">.</=
> span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=
> =B5es alternativas">That</span><span title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=
> =A7=C3=B5es alternativas" class=3D"">'s</span> <span class=3D"hps"
> tit=
> le=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es
> alternativas">a</span> <=
> span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es
> alterna=
> tivas">fact</span><span title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es
> al=
> ternativas" class=3D"">.</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique
> pa=
> ra mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">And</span><span class=3D"hps"
> =
> title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es
> alternativas">learn</span>=
> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar
> tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">a</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=
> =3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es
> alternativas">second</span><spa=
> n title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas"
> class=3D""=
> >,</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar
> tradu=C3=A7=
> =C3=B5es alternativas">third and many</span> <span class=3D"hps"
> title=
> =3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es
> alternativas">other</span> =
> ;<span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es
> alter=
> nativas">languages</span><span title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=
> =B5es alternativas" class=3D"">=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B, based
> on</span> <sp=
> an class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es
> alternati=
> vas">language development</span><span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para
> mo=
> strar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">favored</span> <span
> class=3D"=
> hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es
> alternativas">by</spa=
> n> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar
> tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5e=
> s alternativas">their</span> <span class=3D"hps"
> title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">mother
> tong=
> ue</span><span title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es
> alternativa=
> s" class=3D"">.</span><br class=3D"" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=
> =A7=C3=B5es alternativas"><br class=3D"" title=3D"Clique para mostrar
> tradu=
> =C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas"><span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para
> mostr=
> ar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">Today</span> <span class=3D"hps"
> =
> title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">we
> understan=
> d</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=
> =C3=B5es alternativas">the concept</span> <span class=3D"hps atn"
> titl=
> e=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">of
> "</span><span=
> title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas"
> class=3D"">=
> deaf culture</span><span title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es
> a=
> lternativas" class=3D"">",</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique
> =
> para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">but</span> <span class=
> =3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es
> alternativas">still</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para
> m=
> ostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">expects</span> <span
> class=3D=
> "hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">the
> in=
> tegration</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar
> trad=
> u=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">of the</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=
> =3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es
> alternativas">deaf</span> =
> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es
> altern=
> ativas">society</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para
> mostra=
> r tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">mostly</span> <span class=3D"hps"
> =
> title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es
> alternativas">listener</sp=
> an> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar
> tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5=
> es alternativas">will be better</span> <span class=3D"hps"
> title=3D"Cl=
> ique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">in</span> <span
> cl=
> ass=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es
> alternativas">=
> case they</span> <span class=3D"hps"
> title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es
> alternativas">dominate</s=
> pan> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=
> =B5es alternativas">at least</span> <span class=3D"hps"
> title=3D"Cliqu=
> e para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">the</span> <span
> clas=
> s=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es
> alternativas">wr=
> itten</span><span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar
> tradu=C3=A7=C3=
> =B5es alternativas">form</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique
> pa=
> ra mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">of</span> <span
> class=3D"=
> hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">spoken
> =
> language</span><span title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es
> alter=
> nativas" class=3D"">.</span><br class=3D"" title=3D"Clique para mostrar
> tra=
> du=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas"><br class=3D"" title=3D"Clique para mostrar
> =
> tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas"><span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para
> =
> mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">Among</span> <span
> class=3D"=
> hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es
> alternativas">other</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para
> m=
> ostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">writing systems</span> <span
> =
> class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es
> alternativas=
> ">of signs</span><span title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es
> alt=
> ernativas" class=3D"">,</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique
> par=
> a mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">SW</span> <span
> class=3D"h=
> ps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es
> alternativas">is</span=
> > <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar
> tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es=
> alternativas">shown</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para
> m=
> ostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">as</span> <span
> class=3D"hps"=
> title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es
> alternativas">"visual</sp=
> an><span title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas"
> cla=
> ss=3D"">"</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar
> trad=
> u=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">and</span> <span class=3D"hps atn"
> title=
> =3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es
> alternativas">"</span><span title=3D"Clique para mostrar
> tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5=
> es alternativas" class=3D"">accessible</span><span title=3D"Clique para
> mos=
> trar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas" class=3D"">"</span> <span
> class=
> =3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">to
> =
> the deaf.</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar
> trad=
> u=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">Alphabetic systems</span> <span
> class=3D=
> "hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es
> alternativas">adopte=
> d in</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=
> =A7=C3=B5es alternativas">each</span> <span class=3D"hps"
> title=3D"Cli=
> que para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es
> alternativas">country</span> <spa=
> n class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es
> alternativ=
> as">leads</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar
> trad=
> u=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">directly</span> <span class=3D"hps atn"
> =
> title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es
> alternativas">(</span><spa=
> n title=3D"Clique para mostrar
> tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas" class=3D"">or near</span><span
> title=3D"=
> Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas"
> class=3D"">)</span>&n=
> bsp;<span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es
> al=
> ternativas">the</span><span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar
> trad=
> u=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">sound</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=
> =3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">coming
> out</span>=
> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es
> =
> alternativas">of</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para
> mostr=
> ar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">the mouth</span><span title=3D"Clique
> =
> para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas" class=3D"">.</span><br
> class=
> =3D"" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas"><br
> cl=
> ass=3D"" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es
> alternativas"><sp=
> an class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es
> alternati=
> vas">To</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=
> =C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">learn</span> <span class=3D"hps
> atn" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es
> alternativas">"</spa=
> n><span title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas"
> clas=
> s=3D"">another</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para
> mostrar=
> tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">language</span><span title=3D"Clique
> par=
> a mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas" class=3D"">"</span><span title=
> =3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas"
> class=3D"">,</spa=
> n> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar
> tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5e=
> s alternativas">the</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para
> mo=
> strar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">first</span> <span
> class=3D"hp=
> s" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">native
> la=
> nguage</span><span title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es
> alterna=
> tivas" class=3D"">.</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para
> mo=
> strar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">I believe</span> <span class=
> =3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es
> alternativas">tha=
> t</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para
> mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">after</span> <span
> class=3D=
> "hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es
> alternativas">decade=
> s</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=
> =C3=B5es alternativas">of</span><span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para
> mo=
> strar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">study</span> <span
> class=3D"hp=
> s" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es
> alternativas">and</span=
> > <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar
> tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es=
> alternativas">suffering</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique
> pa=
> ra mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">of deaf
> people</span> <sp=
> an class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es
> alternati=
> vas">worldwide</span><span title=3D"Clique para mostrar
> tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es=
> alternativas" class=3D"">, this</span> <span class=3D"hps"
> title=3D"C=
> lique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es
> alternativas">should</span> <sp=
> an class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es
> alternati=
> vas">be seen</span> <span class=3D"hps"
> title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es
> alternativas">as</span>&n=
> bsp;<span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es
> al=
> ternativas">a rule,</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para
> mo=
> strar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">all</span> <span
> class=3D"hps"=
> title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es
> alternativas">guided</spa=
> n><span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es
> alte=
> rnativas">and</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar
> =
> tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">educational policies</span> <span
> cl=
> ass=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es
> alternativas">=
> for these</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar
> trad=
> u=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">people.</span></span><div
> style=3D"font-famil=
> y: arial; font-size: 10pt; "><span class=3D"Apple-style-span"
> style=3D"font=
> -family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; "><br></span></div><div><font
> =
> class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"arial, sans-serif"><span
> class=3D"Apple-=
> style-span"
> style=3D"font-size: 16px; "><span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para
> mostr=
> ar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">I believe it is</span> <span
> clas=
> s=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es
> alternativas">on=
> e</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=
> =C3=B5es alternativas">of the</span> <span class=3D"hps"
> title=3D"Cliq=
> ue para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es
> alternativas">Brazilians</span> <s=
> pan class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es
> alternat=
> ivas">who</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar
> trad=
> u=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">believe</span> <span class=3D"hps"
> title=
> =3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es
> alternativas">in</span> <s=
> pan class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es
> alternat=
> ivas">bilingualism</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para
> mos=
> trar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">in addition to
> the</span> <span=
> class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es
> alternativa=
> s">SW</span><span title=3D"Clique para
> mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas" class=3D"">.</span><span class=
> =3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es
> alternativas">Gra=
> dually</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=
> =C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">the</span> <span class=3D"hps"
> title=3D"C=
> lique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es
> alternativas">deaf</span> <span=
> class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es
> alternativa=
> s">is</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar
> tradu=C3=
> =A7=C3=B5es alternativas">being politicized</span> <span
> class=3D"hps"=
> title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es
> alternativas">and</span>&=
> nbsp;<span class=3D"hps atn" title=3D"Clique para mostrar
> tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5=
> es alternativas">"</span><span title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=
> =B5es alternativas" class=3D"">interfering</span><span title=3D"Clique
> para=
> mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas" class=3D"">"</span> <span
> c=
> lass=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es
> alternativas"=
> >in the educational system</span><span title=3D"Clique
> para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas"
> class=3D"">.</span></span><=
> br class=3D"" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es
> alternativas=
> "></font><br class=3D"" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es
> al=
> ternativas"><span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar
> tradu=C3=A7=C3=
> =B5es alternativas" style=3D"font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size:
> 16p=
> x; ">Yuri</span><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"arial,
> sans-serif"=
> > </font><span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=
> =C3=B5es alternativas" style=3D"font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size:
> =
> 16px; ">Barreto</span><br><br><font class=3D"Apple-style-span"
> face=3D"aria=
> l" size=3D"2">--- Em </font><b style=3D"font-family: arial; font-size:
> 10pt=
> ; ">dom, 5/6/11, Charles Butler <i><chazzer3332000 at YAHOO.COM
> ></i></b>=
> <font class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"arial" size=3D"2">
> escreveu:</font=
> ><br><blockquote style=3D"font-family: arial; font-size: 10pt;
> border-left-=
> width: 2px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(16, 16, 255);
> margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px; "><br>De: Charles Butler
> <chazzer3=
> 332000 at YAHOO.COM><br>Assunto: Re: Wikipedia article<br>Para:
> SW-L at LISTSE=
> RV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU <http://rv.valenciacollege.edu/><br>Data: Domingo,
> 5 de Junho de 2011, 8:49<br><br><d=
> iv id=3D"yiv734840167"><div
> style=3D"color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-=
> family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12pt;"><div><span>This
> multi-=
> faceted approach was the very one given by a British researcher who was
> tou=
> ring Brazil when I was there in 2000. He went on and on about the Deaf not
> =
> being able to write their own language and so having a barrier to becoming
> =
> truly bilingual, and this was with more than 100 out of the 500 people in
> t=
> he lecture hall fluent in SignWriting. Everyone, as is the Brazilian
> custom=
> , were excruciatingly polite in not contradicting a professor in a
> lecture,=
> but people were clearly
> annoyed. </span></div><div><span><br></span><=
> /div><div><span>SignWriting is finally hitting the national stage in
> Brazil, so I think we are going to be seeing a lot of changes over the
> yea=
> rs.</span></div><div><span><br></span></div><div><span>Charles
> Butler</span=
> ></div><div><span><br></span></div><div><br></div><div
> style=3D"font-size:1=
> 2pt;font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><div
> style=3D"font-size:12pt=
> ;font-family:times, serif;"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><hr
> size=3D"1">=
> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Cherie Wren
> <cwter=
> p at YAHOO.COM><br><b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b>
> SW-L=
> @LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU <http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/><br><b><span
> style=3D"font-weight:bold;">Sent:=
> </span></b> Saturday, June 4, 2011 5:07 PM<br><b><span
> style=3D"font-weight=
> :bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: Wikipedia article<br></font><br>=0A<div id=
> =3D"yiv734840167"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0, 0,
> 0);background-color:rgb(255=
> , 255, 255);font-size:12pt;font-family:arial, helvetica,
> sans-serif;"><div>=
> <span>Shoot, I cant find it now... I had written a proposal to my
> adm=
> inistration to do some research using signwriting to teach Deaf
> kids. =
> It is based on research by J Cummins who did a lot of work with bilingual
> =
> education. His research posits that there are two ways to reach
> liter=
> acy in a second language. One way is via the spoken language.
> S=
> panish speaking kids in American schools learn to speak English, then
> trans=
> fer that knowledge to learning to read and write English. That
> doesn'=
> t work so well for Deaf kids, who have great difficulties learning to
> speak=
> a language they cant hear. The other way that Cummins proposes is
> vi=
> a the written form of the language. Spanish speaking kids who are
> lit=
> erate in Spanish can use written Spanish as the bridge to=0A learning
> writt=
> en English. There=0A is research out there that states that Cummins
> r=
> esearch does not apply to Deaf kids--- because you can't write ASL.
> B=
> ut you CAN. I had hoped to do research showing that SignWriting
> could=
> be the bridge that helps Deaf kids improve literacy in English, but that
> i=
> sn't going to happen
> now. </span></div><div><br><span></span></d=
> iv><div><span>cherie<br></span></div><div><br><blockquote
> style=3D"border-l=
> eft:2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255);margin-left:5px;padding-left:5px;"><div
> styl=
> e=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><div style=
> =3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:times, serif;"><font size=3D"2"
> face=3D"Aria=
> l"><hr size=3D"1"><b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b>
> Cha=
> rles Butler <chazzer3332000 at YAHOO.COM><br><b><span
> style=3D"font-weig=
> ht:bold;">To:</span></b> SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU<br><b><span
> styl=
> e=3D"font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Saturday, June 4, 2011 8:42=0A
> AM<=
> br><b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: Wikipedia
> a=
> rticle<br></font><br>=0A<div id=3D"yiv734840167"><div
> style=3D"color:rgb(0,=
> 0, 0);background-color:rgb(255, 255,
> 255);font-size:12pt;font-family:arial=
> , helvetica, sans-serif;"><div>My experience in teaching SignWriting to a
> g=
> roup of Deaf and hearing instructors in Ohio needs to be interjected here.
> =
> The organizers of the event for teachers of ASL seemed hopeful, but when
> th=
> e very first words were "and how will this additional writing system help
> M=
> Y students to read English" was the immediate
> barrier.</div><div><br></div>=
> <div>I found myself tongue-tied and unable to pursue a useful conversation
> =
> because every response in the room was stacked against me. All of them
> want=
> ed the Deaf to read English in all circumstances, and honestly refused to
> s=
> ee SignWriting as a writing system for any signed language, a true writing
> =
> system to produce one's own language parallel to the larger population's
> sp=
> oken language. For more than an hour, my lecture was peppered with
> qu=
> estions of=0A "why should I ADD to the burden=0A of the=0A Deaf" as if
> Deaf=
> student were somehow the personal possession of the teachers, and they
> MUS=
> T use English in the long run, so why teach them to write and read their
> ow=
> n language. </div><div><br></div><div>This is in a state where
> Oberlin=
> Conservatory teaches Dance Writing, recognizing that Dance itself is a
> lan=
> guage, and you cannot describe choreography in English or any other
> languag=
> e without a way to write in a diagramatic written
> form. </div><div><br=
> ></div><div>When people have asked me over the years who invented
> SignWriti=
> ng, a Deaf or hearing person, I say neither, she is a Dancer, and Dance is
> =
> a language of movement, so that both the Deaf and the Hearing can be fully
> =
> enfranchised in using gesture based languages on an equal
> footing.</div><di=
> v><br></div><div>Although one can write Russian using the Roman alphabet,
> t=
> he Cyrillic alphabet is the writing system of choice because of history
> and=
> education. </div><div><br></div><div>One can=0A write the many
> mutual=
> ly unintelligible languages of China using a written language of
> pictograph=
> s which are pronounced any number of ways whether one is speaking
> Mandarin,=
> Cantonese, Sechuan, or Mongolian dialects, it remains itself a
> pictographi=
> c system not really dependent on any one of
> them. </div><div><br></div=
> ><div>One can write Hindustani using the Roman alphabet, but the alphabet
> o=
> f choice is Sanskrit, used for more than 3000
> years. </div><div><br></=
> div><div>So now we have SignWriting, able to be used for all movement
> based=
> languages, I believe, in a way that is much better than any other as it
> is=
> iconographic so that it is not dependent on spoken language to be
> read.&nb=
> sp;</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div
> style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-fa=
> mily:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><div
> style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-famil=
> y:times, serif;"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><hr size=3D"1"><b><span
> st=
> yle=3D"font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Trevor=0A Jenkins=0A
> <bslwann=
> abe at GMAIL.COM><br><b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b>
> SW=
> -L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU<br><b><span
> style=3D"font-weight:bold;">Sen=
> t:</span></b> Saturday, June 4, 2011 7:11 AM<br><b><span
> style=3D"font-weig=
> ht:bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: Wikipedia article<br></font><br>=0A<div
> i=
> d=3D"yiv734840167">A better comparison for the content of the SignWriting
> p=
> age on the English language WikiPedia page would be the pages for Arabic,
> H=
> ebrew, Chinese, Japanese, Linear B, Klingon, Na'vi and other
> <b>orthographi=
> c systems</b>. We need to be clear that SignWriting is nothing more than a
> =
> writing scheme for signed languages. In the same way that Chinese
> calligrap=
> hy is a writing scheme for spoken Chinese and similar for other spoken
> lang=
> uages with non-Latinate orthographies.<br>=0A<br>Personally I consider
> Sign=
> Writing to be closer in purpose to IPA (International Phonetic Alphabet)
> th=
> an to written English. Lexicographers might disagree with me and suggest
> th=
> at Stokoe notation is the obvious parallel to IPA. Though here as a native
> =
> English speaker and second language British Sign Language speaker I would
> c=
> ontend that the reliance on ASL fingerspelling shapes names in Stokoe, and
> =
> the use of Latinate symbols in IPA for that matter, are a hinderance to
> lea=
> rning the notation. There is, of course, a similar problem with
> SignWriting=
> as many of the training materials are written using ASL as an exemplar.
> Th=
> e iconic nature of SignWriting allows one to get around the problem, which
> =
> a non-Latinate reader would not be able to do with IPA. I could just as
> eas=
> ily say that HamNoSys is the IPA of signed languages but the point is that
> =
> the written critical form of spoken languages often bears no relation to
> th=
> e way strings are actually pronounced.=0A (One only has to consider the
> lyr=
> ics of the Gershwins' song "Let's call the whole thing off" to see what a
> m=
> ess standard English orthography makes of
> pronounciation.)<br>=0A<br>Howeve=
> r, in one sense I agree with you; the use of an ASL story gives the wrong
> i=
> mpression of SignWriting ... that it is solely for ASL. As Val has pointed
> =
> out (thanks Val for correcting my poor history of the genesis of
> SignWritin=
> g) this orthography is applicable to all signed languages and manual
> commun=
> ication systems.<br>=0A<br><div class=3D"yiv734840167gmail_quote">On Fri,
> J=
> un 3, 2011 at 11:21 PM, George Veronis <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a
> rel=3D"nofo=
> llow" ymailto=3D"mailto:george.veronis at yale.edu" target=3D"_blank"
> href=3D"=
> /mc/compose?to=3Dgeorge.veronis at yale.edu">george.veronis at yale.edu
> </a>></=
> span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"yiv734840167gmail_quote"
> style=3D"marg=
> in:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">=0A<div style=
> =3D"word-wrap:break-word;">A number of people responded to my suggestion
> ab=
> out signwriting (SW). Only two of them understood where I was coming
> =
> from and why I made the suggestion that a simpler, more straightforward
> pie=
> ce is called for in the Wikipedia article. Valerie Sutton
> mentio=
> ned the origins of SW and how it arose from someone without a background
> in=
> sign language. I think that all of the respondents should read and
> t=
> hink about what she wrote because at the time she was also not involved in
> =
> SW as it has developed. The other person who made very pertinent
> rema=
> rks is Stuart Thiessen, who went through the same experience that I have,
> v=
> iz., very little knowledge at a very early stage of learning ASL.
> He,=
> too, needed responses to questions that arose from very little experience
> =
> with ASL<div>=0A<div> <span style=3D"border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,
> =
> 0,
> 0);font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spaci=
>
> ng:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-spac=
>
> e:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-size:medium;font-family:Geneva;"><div>=0A<br=
> >I think that communication itself must be handled with care. One
> has=
> to take the time and trouble to understand the basis and the reason for
> re=
> marks made and questions asked. The article in Wikipedia is in the
> En=
> glish language and the topics contained therein are intended for English
> sp=
> eaking people. I wrote as an English speaker and relatively ignorant
> =
> ASL user who was trying to understand an
> esoteric </div>=0A<div>topic.=
> All of you must have been confronted with "Why signwriting -
> wh=
> y don't they just use the text?". That's a very understandable
> questi=
> on for someone with little or no training in sign language and with no
> expe=
> rience with deaf people. I have attended a total of 12 classes in
> ASL;=
> for my final exam I decided to try to convey to the class that something
> c=
> alled signwriting exists. No one in a class of fifteen, not even the
> =
> teacher, had ever heard of signwriting. So those of you who have
> been=
> involved with SW for a long time should keep in mind that there is a
> world=
> of people who might want to know about SW and who will probably ask very
> s=
> imple and elementary questions, as I did.
> </div>=0A<div><br></div><di=
> v>Given what I just wrote, I would like to suggest that a statement like
> th=
> e one that Adam Frost made:</div><div><font color=3D"#1B00FF">Having a
> lite=
> ral translation will actually be seen as an insult, especially to native
> us=
> ers, and will make SignWriting seem to be an oppressors tool to limit how
> S=
> ign Language is used </font>must be directed to an audience
> very=
> different from the vast majority of users of Wikipedia. I was
> comple=
> tely perplexed by it</div>=0A<div>and it was only after thinking hard
> about=
> how in world anyone could misconstrue my simple suggestion that I
> realized=
> how delicate the issue of communication is and how hard we have to think
> a=
> bout the source of the question. Without giving the issue serious
> con=
> sideration, the two sides, experienced SW users and those seeking to
> unders=
> tand what SW is all about, will never make contact and that would be a
> pity=
> . But as long as people like Thiessen and Sutton are involved, there
> =
> is hope that the issue will not get too far out of
> control.</div>=0A<div><b=
> r></div><div>With serious good intentions,</div><div>George Veronis
> <=
> /div><font
> color=3D"#888888"><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><=
> div><br></div></font></span></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br><br
> cl=
> ear=3D"all">=0A<br>-- <br>Regards, Trevor.<br><br><>< Re:
> deemed!<=
>
> br>=0A</div><br><br></div></div></div></div><br><br></div></div></blockquot=
>
> e></div></div></div><br><br></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></td=
> ></tr></table>
> --0-1022750816-1307281463=:85875--
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 18:00:13 +0200
> From: Ingvild Roald <iroald at HOTMAIL.COM>
> Subject: Re: Wikipedia article - Path to Literacy
>
> --_1c443d88-23ae-4af4-aa6a-54d558f63d88_
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset=iso-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
>
> How about the two papers presented in Maastricht some years ago=2C by
> Stefa=
> n and by Sara and Kathleen? They should both be on the SignWriting site=2C
> =
> and even if they are not based on scientific research=2C they were good
> eno=
> ugh to be presented at a major scientific conference.
>
> Ingvild=20
>
>
>
>
> Date: Sat=2C 4 Jun 2011 14:40:06 -0700
> From: sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG
> Subject: Re: Wikipedia article - Path to Literacy
> To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
>
>
>
> SignWriting ListJune 4=2C 2011
> Cherie -Attached are two documents. I believe these are what you are
> lookin=
> g for? The Path to LIteracy is an excellent article... Great work... Val =
> =3B-)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----------
> On Jun 4=2C 2011=2C at 2:07 PM=2C Cherie Wren wrote:Shoot=2C I cant find
> it=
> now... I had written a proposal to my administration to do some research
> =
> using signwriting to teach Deaf kids. It is based on research by J
> Cummins=
> who did a lot of work with bilingual education. His research posits that
> =
> there are two ways to reach literacy in a second language. One way is via
> =
> the spoken language. Spanish speaking kids in American schools learn to
> sp=
> eak English=2C then transfer that knowledge to learning to read and write
> E=
> nglish. That doesn't work so well for Deaf kids=2C who have great
> difficul=
> ties learning to speak a language they cant hear. The other way that
> Cummi=
> ns proposes is via the written form of the language. Spanish speaking
> kids=
> who are literate in Spanish can use written Spanish as the bridge to
> learn=
> ing written English. There
> is research out there that states that Cummins research does not apply to
> =
> Deaf kids--- because you can't write ASL. But you CAN. I had hoped to do
> =
> research showing that SignWriting could be the bridge that helps Deaf kids
> =
> improve literacy in English=2C but that isn't going to happen now. =20
> cherie
>
> From: Charles Butler <chazzer3332000 at YAHOO.COM>
> To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
> Sent: Saturday=2C June 4=2C 2011 8:42
> AM
> Subject: Re: Wikipedia article
>
>
> My experience in teaching SignWriting to a group of Deaf and hearing
> instru=
> ctors in Ohio needs to be interjected here. The organizers of the event
> for=
> teachers of ASL seemed hopeful=2C but when the very first words were "and
> =
> how will this additional writing system help MY students to read English"
> w=
> as the immediate barrier.
> I found myself tongue-tied and unable to pursue a useful conversation
> becau=
> se every response in the room was stacked against me. All of them wanted
> th=
> e Deaf to read English in all circumstances=2C and honestly refused to see
> =
> SignWriting as a writing system for any signed language=2C a true writing
> s=
> ystem to produce one's own language parallel to the larger population's
> spo=
> ken language. For more than an hour=2C my lecture was peppered with
> questi=
> ons of "why should I ADD to the burden
> of the
> Deaf" as if Deaf student were somehow the personal possession of the
> teach=
> ers=2C and they MUST use English in the long run=2C so why teach them to
> wr=
> ite and read their own language.=20
> This is in a state where Oberlin Conservatory teaches Dance Writing=2C
> reco=
> gnizing that Dance itself is a language=2C and you cannot describe
> choreogr=
> aphy in English or any other language without a way to write in a
> diagramat=
> ic written form.=20
> When people have asked me over the years who invented SignWriting=2C a
> Deaf=
> or hearing person=2C I say neither=2C she is a Dancer=2C and Dance is a
> la=
> nguage of movement=2C so that both the Deaf and the Hearing can be fully
> en=
> franchised in using gesture based languages on an equal footing.
> Although one can write Russian using the Roman alphabet=2C the Cyrillic
> alp=
> habet is the writing system of choice because of history and education.=20
> One can
> write the many mutually unintelligible languages of China using a written
> =
> language of pictographs which are pronounced any number of ways whether
> one=
> is speaking Mandarin=2C Cantonese=2C Sechuan=2C or Mongolian dialects=2C
> i=
> t remains itself a pictographic system not really dependent on any one of
> t=
> hem.=20
> One can write Hindustani using the Roman alphabet=2C but the alphabet of
> ch=
> oice is Sanskrit=2C used for more than 3000 years.=20
> So now we have SignWriting=2C able to be used for all movement based
> langua=
> ges=2C I believe=2C in a way that is much better than any other as it is
> ic=
> onographic so that it is not dependent on spoken language to be read.=20
>
> From: Trevor Jenkins
> <bslwannabe at GMAIL.COM>
> To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
> Sent: Saturday=2C June 4=2C 2011 7:11 AM
> Subject: Re: Wikipedia article
>
>
> A better comparison for the content of the SignWriting page on the English
> =
> language WikiPedia page would be the pages for Arabic=2C Hebrew=2C Chinese=
> =2C Japanese=2C Linear B=2C Klingon=2C Na'vi and other orthographic
> systems=
> . We need to be clear that SignWriting is nothing more than a writing
> schem=
> e for signed languages. In the same way that Chinese calligraphy is a
> writi=
> ng scheme for spoken Chinese and similar for other spoken languages with
> no=
> n-Latinate orthographies.
>
>
> Personally I consider SignWriting to be closer in purpose to IPA
> (Internati=
> onal Phonetic Alphabet) than to written English. Lexicographers might
> disag=
> ree with me and suggest that Stokoe notation is the obvious parallel to
> IPA=
> . Though here as a native English speaker and second language British Sign
> =
> Language speaker I would contend that the reliance on ASL fingerspelling
> sh=
> apes names in Stokoe=2C and the use of Latinate symbols in IPA for that
> mat=
> ter=2C are a hinderance to learning the notation. There is=2C of course=2C
> =
> a similar problem with SignWriting as many of the training materials are
> wr=
> itten using ASL as an exemplar. The iconic nature of SignWriting allows
> one=
> to get around the problem=2C which a non-Latinate reader would not be
> able=
> to do with IPA. I could just as easily say that HamNoSys is the IPA of
> sig=
> ned languages but the point is that the written critical form of spoken
> lan=
> guages often bears no relation to the way strings are actually pronounced.
> (One only has to consider the lyrics of the Gershwins' song "Let's call
> th=
> e whole thing off" to see what a mess standard English orthography makes
> of=
> pronounciation.)
>
>
> However=2C in one sense I agree with you=3B the use of an ASL story gives
> t=
> he wrong impression of SignWriting ... that it is solely for ASL. As Val
> ha=
> s pointed out (thanks Val for correcting my poor history of the genesis of
> =
> SignWriting) this orthography is applicable to all signed languages and
> man=
> ual communication systems.
>
>
> On Fri=2C Jun 3=2C 2011 at 11:21 PM=2C George Veronis <george.veronis at yale.
> =
> edu> wrote:
>
> A number of people responded to my suggestion about signwriting (SW).
> Only=
> two of them understood where I was coming from and why I made the
> suggesti=
> on that a simpler=2C more straightforward piece is called for in the
> Wikipe=
> dia article. Valerie Sutton mentioned the origins of SW and how it arose
> f=
> rom someone without a background in sign language. I think that all of
> the=
> respondents should read and think about what she wrote because at the
> time=
> she was also not involved in SW as it has developed. The other person
> who=
> made very pertinent remarks is Stuart Thiessen=2C who went through the
> sam=
> e experience that I have=2C viz.=2C very little knowledge at a very early
> s=
> tage of learning ASL. He=2C too=2C needed responses to questions that
> aros=
> e from very little experience with ASL
> =20
>
> I think that communication itself must be handled with care. One has to
> ta=
> ke the time and trouble to understand the basis and the reason for remarks
> =
> made and questions asked. The article in Wikipedia is in the English
> langu=
> age and the topics contained therein are intended for English speaking
> peop=
> le. I wrote as an English speaker and relatively ignorant ASL user who
> was=
> trying to understand an esoteric=20
> topic. All of you must have been confronted with "Why signwriting - why
> do=
> n't they just use the text?". That's a very understandable question for
> so=
> meone with little or no training in sign language and with no experience
> wi=
> th deaf people. I have attended a total of 12 classes in ASL=3B for my
> fina=
> l exam I decided to try to convey to the class that something called
> signwr=
> iting exists. No one in a class of fifteen=2C not even the teacher=2C had
> =
> ever heard of signwriting. So those of you who have been involved with SW
> =
> for a long time should keep in mind that there is a world of people who
> mig=
> ht want to know about SW and who will probably ask very simple and
> elementa=
> ry questions=2C as I did. =20
>
> Given what I just wrote=2C I would like to suggest that a statement like
> th=
> e one that Adam Frost made:Having a literal translation will actually be
> se=
> en as an insult=2C especially to native users=2C and will make SignWriting
> =
> seem to be an oppressors tool to limit how Sign Language is used must be
> d=
> irected to an audience very different from the vast majority of users of
> Wi=
> kipedia. I was completely perplexed by it
> and it was only after thinking hard about how in world anyone could
> miscons=
> true my simple suggestion that I realized how delicate the issue of
> communi=
> cation is and how hard we have to think about the source of the question.
> =
> Without giving the issue serious consideration=2C the two sides=2C
> experien=
> ced SW users and those seeking to understand what SW is all about=2C will
> n=
> ever make contact and that would be a pity. But as long as people like
> Thi=
> essen and Sutton are involved=2C there is hope that the issue will not get
> =
> too far out of control.
>
> With serious good intentions=2CGeorge Veronis =20
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --=20
> Regards=2C Trevor.
>
> <>< Re: deemed!
>
>
>
>
>
>
> =
>
> --_1c443d88-23ae-4af4-aa6a-54d558f63d88_
> Content-Type: text/html;
> charset=iso-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> <html>
> <head>
> <style><!--
> .hmmessage P
> {
> margin:0px=3B
> padding:0px
> }
> body.hmmessage
> {
> font-size: 10pt=3B
> font-family:Tahoma
> }
> --></style>
> </head>
> <body class=3D'hmmessage'>
> How about the two papers presented in Maastricht some years ago=2C by
> Stefa=
> n and by Sara and Kathleen? They should both be on the SignWriting site=2C
> =
> and even if they are not based on scientific research=2C they were good
> eno=
> ugh to be presented at a major scientific conference.<br><br>Ingvild=20
> <br><br><br><br><hr id=3D"stopSpelling">Date: Sat=2C 4 Jun 2011 14:40:06
> -0=
> 700<br>From: sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG<br>Subject: Re: Wikipedia article -
> Pat=
> h to Literacy<br>To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU<br><br>
> <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html=3B
> charset=3Dunicode=
> ">
> <meta name=3D"Generator" content=3D"Microsoft SafeHTML">SignWriting
> List<di=
> v>June 4=2C 2011</div><div><br></div><div>Cherie -</div><div>Attached are
> t=
> wo documents. I believe these are what you are looking for? The Path to
> LIt=
> eracy is an excellent article... Great work... Val
> =3B-)</div><div><br></di=
> v><div></div><br>
>
> <div></div><div><br></div><div></div><br>
>
> <div></div><div><br></div><div>----------</div><div><br><div><div>On Jun 4=
> =2C 2011=2C at 2:07 PM=2C Cherie Wren wrote:</div><br
> class=3D"ecxApple-int=
> erchange-newline"><blockquote><div><div style=3D"color: rgb(0=2C 0=2C
> 0)=3B=
> background-color: rgb(255=2C 255=2C 255)=3B font-family:
> arial=2Chelvetica=
> =2Csans-serif=3B font-size: 12pt=3B"><div><span>Shoot=2C I cant find it
> now=
> ... =3B I had written a proposal to my administration to do some
> resear=
> ch using signwriting to teach Deaf kids. =3B It is based on research
> by=
> J Cummins who did a lot of work with bilingual education. =3B His
> rese=
> arch posits that there are two ways to reach literacy in a second
> language.=
>  =3B One way is via the spoken language. =3B Spanish speaking kids
> =
> in American schools learn to speak English=2C then transfer that knowledge
> =
> to learning to read and write English. =3B That doesn't work so well
> fo=
> r Deaf kids=2C who have great difficulties learning to speak a language
> the=
> y cant hear. =3B The other way that Cummins proposes is via the
> written=
> form of the language. =3B Spanish speaking kids who are literate in
> Sp=
> anish can use written Spanish as the bridge to learning written
> English.&nb=
> sp=3B There
> is research out there that states that Cummins research does not apply to
> =
> Deaf kids--- because you can't write ASL. =3B But you CAN. =3B I
> ha=
> d hoped to do research showing that SignWriting could be the bridge that
> he=
> lps Deaf kids improve literacy in English=2C but that isn't going to
> happen=
>
> now. =3B =3B</span></div><div><br><span></span></div><div><span>ch=
> erie<br></span></div><div><br><blockquote style=3D"margin-left: 5px=3B
> padd=
> ing-left: 5px=3B"><div style=3D"font-family:
> arial=2Chelvetica=2Csans-serif=
> =3B font-size: 12pt=3B"><div style=3D"font-family: times new roman=2Cnew
> yo=
> rk=2Ctimes=2Cserif=3B font-size: 12pt=3B"><font size=3D"2"
> face=3D"Arial"><=
> hr size=3D"1"><b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold=3B">From:</span></b>
> Char=
> les Butler <=3B<a href=3D"mailto:chazzer3332000 at YAHOO.COM
> ">chazzer3332000=
> @YAHOO.COM <http://yahoo.com/></a>>=3B<br><b><span style=3D"font-weight:
> bold=3B">To:</span><=
> /b> <a href=3D"mailto:SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
> ">SW-L at LISTSERV.VALE=
> NCIACOLLEGE.EDU <http://nciacollege.edu/></a><br><b><span
> style=3D"font-weight: bold=3B">Sent:</span>=
> </b> Saturday=2C June 4=2C 2011 8:42
> AM<br><b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold=3B">Subject:</span></b> Re:
> Wiki=
> pedia article<br></font><br>
> <div id=3D"ecxyiv599825412"><div style=3D"color: rgb(0=2C 0=2C 0)=3B
> backgr=
> ound-color: rgb(255=2C 255=2C 255)=3B font-family:
> arial=2Chelvetica=2Csans=
> -serif=3B font-size: 12pt=3B"><div>My experience in teaching SignWriting
> to=
> a group of Deaf and hearing instructors in Ohio needs to be interjected
> he=
> re. The organizers of the event for teachers of ASL seemed hopeful=2C but
> w=
> hen the very first words were "and how will this additional writing system
> =
> help MY students to read English" was the immediate
> barrier.</div><div><br>=
> </div><div>I found myself tongue-tied and unable to pursue a useful
> convers=
> ation because every response in the room was stacked against me. All of
> the=
> m wanted the Deaf to read English in all circumstances=2C and honestly
> refu=
> sed to see SignWriting as a writing system for any signed language=2C a
> tru=
> e writing system to produce one's own language parallel to the larger
> popul=
> ation's spoken language.  =3BFor more than an hour=2C my lecture was
> pe=
> ppered with questions of "why should I ADD to the burden
> of the
> Deaf" as if Deaf student were somehow the personal possession of the
> teach=
> ers=2C and they MUST use English in the long run=2C so why teach them to
> wr=
> ite and read their own language. =3B</div><div><br></div><div>This is
> i=
> n a state where Oberlin Conservatory teaches Dance Writing=2C recognizing
> t=
> hat Dance itself is a language=2C and you cannot describe choreography in
> E=
> nglish or any other language without a way to write in a diagramatic
> writte=
> n form. =3B</div><div><br></div><div>When people have asked me over
> the=
> years who invented SignWriting=2C a Deaf or hearing person=2C I say
> neithe=
> r=2C she is a Dancer=2C and Dance is a language of movement=2C so that
> both=
> the Deaf and the Hearing can be fully enfranchised in using gesture based
> =
> languages on an equal footing.</div><div><br></div><div>Although one can
> wr=
> ite Russian using the Roman alphabet=2C the Cyrillic alphabet is the
> writin=
> g system of choice because of history and
> education. =3B</div><div><br>=
> </div><div>One can
> write the many mutually unintelligible languages of China using a written
> =
> language of pictographs which are pronounced any number of ways whether
> one=
> is speaking Mandarin=2C Cantonese=2C Sechuan=2C or Mongolian dialects=2C
> i=
> t remains itself a pictographic system not really dependent on any one of
> t=
> hem. =3B</div><div><br></div><div>One can write Hindustani using the
> Ro=
> man alphabet=2C but the alphabet of choice is Sanskrit=2C used for more
> tha=
> n 3000 years. =3B</div><div><br></div><div>So now we have SignWriting=
> =2C able to be used for all movement based languages=2C I believe=2C in a
> w=
> ay that is much better than any other as it is iconographic so that it is
> n=
> ot dependent on spoken language to be
> read. =3B</div><div><br></div><di=
> v><br></div><div style=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B font-family:
> arial=2Chelvetica=
> =2Csans-serif=3B"><div style=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B font-family:
> times=2Cser=
> if=3B"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><hr size=3D"1"><b><span
> style=3D"fon=
> t-weight: bold=3B">From:</span></b> Trevor Jenkins
> <=3B<a href=3D"mailto:bslwannabe at GMAIL.COM">bslwannabe at GMAIL.COM
> </a>>=
> =3B<br><b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold=3B">To:</span></b> <a
> href=3D"ma=
> ilto:SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU">SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
> </=
> a><br><b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold=3B">Sent:</span></b> Saturday=2C
> =
> June 4=2C 2011 7:11 AM<br><b><span style=3D"font-weight:
> bold=3B">Subject:<=
> /span></b> Re: Wikipedia article<br></font><br>
> <div id=3D"ecxyiv599825412">A better comparison for the content of the
> Sign=
> Writing page on the English language WikiPedia page would be the pages for
> =
> Arabic=2C Hebrew=2C Chinese=2C Japanese=2C Linear B=2C Klingon=2C Na'vi
> and=
> other <b>orthographic systems</b>. We need to be clear that SignWriting
> is=
> nothing more than a writing scheme for signed languages. In the same way
> t=
> hat Chinese calligraphy is a writing scheme for spoken Chinese and similar
> =
> for other spoken languages with non-Latinate orthographies.<br>
> <br>Personally I consider SignWriting to be closer in purpose to IPA
> (Inter=
> national Phonetic Alphabet) than to written English. Lexicographers might
> d=
> isagree with me and suggest that Stokoe notation is the obvious parallel
> to=
> IPA. Though here as a native English speaker and second language British
> S=
> ign Language speaker I would contend that the reliance on ASL
> fingerspellin=
> g shapes names in Stokoe=2C and the use of Latinate symbols in IPA for
> that=
> matter=2C are a hinderance to learning the notation. There is=2C of
> course=
> =2C a similar problem with SignWriting as many of the training materials
> ar=
> e written using ASL as an exemplar. The iconic nature of SignWriting
> allows=
> one to get around the problem=2C which a non-Latinate reader would not be
> =
> able to do with IPA. I could just as easily say that HamNoSys is the IPA
> of=
> signed languages but the point is that the written critical form of
> spoken=
> languages often bears no relation to the way strings are actually
> pronounc=
> ed.
> (One only has to consider the lyrics of the Gershwins' song "Let's call
> th=
> e whole thing off" to see what a mess standard English orthography makes
> of=
> pronounciation.)<br>
> <br>However=2C in one sense I agree with you=3B the use of an ASL story
> giv=
> es the wrong impression of SignWriting ... that it is solely for ASL. As
> Va=
> l has pointed out (thanks Val for correcting my poor history of the
> genesis=
> of SignWriting) this orthography is applicable to all signed languages
> and=
> manual communication systems.<br>
> <br><div class=3D"ecxyiv599825412gmail_quote">On Fri=2C Jun 3=2C 2011 at
> 11=
> :21 PM=2C George Veronis <span dir=3D"ltr"><=3B<a rel=3D"nofollow" href=
> =3D"mailto:george.veronis at yale.edu">george.veronis at yale.edu
> </a>>=3B</span=
> > wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"ecxyiv599825412gmail_quote"
> style=3D"borde=
> r-left: 1px solid rgb(204=2C 204=2C 204)=3B padding-left: 1ex=3B">
> <div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word=3B">A number of people responded to my
> =
> suggestion about signwriting (SW).  =3BOnly two of them understood
> wher=
> e I was coming from and why I made the suggestion that a simpler=2C more
> st=
> raightforward piece is called for in the =3BWikipedia article.
>  =3B=
> Valerie Sutton mentioned the origins of SW and how it arose from someone
> wi=
> thout a background in sign language.  =3BI think that all of the
> respon=
> dents should read and think about what she wrote because at the time she
> wa=
> s also not involved in SW as it has developed.  =3BThe other person
> who=
> made very pertinent remarks is Stuart Thiessen=2C who went through the
> sam=
> e experience that I have=2C viz.=2C very little knowledge at a very early
> s=
> tage of learning ASL.  =3BHe=2C too=2C needed responses to questions
> th=
> at arose from very little experience with ASL<div>
> <div> <span style=3D"border-collapse: separate=3B color: rgb(0=2C 0=2C 0)=
> =3B font-style: normal=3B font-variant: normal=3B font-weight: normal=3B
> le=
> tter-spacing: normal=3B line-height: normal=3B text-indent: 0px=3B
> text-tra=
> nsform: none=3B white-space: normal=3B word-spacing: 0px=3B font-size:
> medi=
> um=3B font-family: Geneva=3B"><div>
> <br>I think that communication itself must be handled with care.
>  =3BOn=
> e has to take the time and trouble to understand the basis and the reason
> f=
> or remarks made and questions asked.  =3BThe article in Wikipedia is
> in=
> the English language and the topics contained therein are intended for
> Eng=
> lish speaking people.  =3BI wrote as an English speaker and relatively
> =
> ignorant ASL user who was trying to understand an esoteric =3B</div>
> <div>topic.  =3BAll of =3Byou must have been confronted with "Why
> s=
> ignwriting - why don't they just use the text?".  =3BThat's a very
> unde=
> rstandable question for someone with little or no training in sign
> language=
> and with no experience with deaf people. =3BI have attended a total
> of=
> 12 classes in ASL=3B for my final exam I decided to try to convey to the
> c=
> lass that something called signwriting exists.  =3BNo one in a class
> of=
> fifteen=2C not even the teacher=2C had ever heard of signwriting.
>  =3B=
> So those of you who have been involved with SW for a long time should keep
> =
> in mind that there is a world of people who might want to know about SW
> and=
> who will probably ask very simple and elementary questions=2C as I did.
> &n=
> bsp=3B</div>
> <div><br></div><div>Given what I just wrote=2C I would like to suggest
> that=
> a statement like the one that Adam Frost made:</div><div><font
> color=3D"#1=
> b00ff">Having a literal translation will actually be seen as an insult=2C
> e=
> specially to native users=2C and will make SignWriting seem to be an
> oppres=
> sors tool to limit how Sign Language is used =3B =3B</font>must be
> =
> directed to an audience very different from the vast majority of users of
> W=
> ikipedia.  =3BI was completely perplexed by it</div>
> <div>and it was only after thinking hard about how in world anyone could
> mi=
> sconstrue my simple suggestion that I realized how delicate the issue of
> co=
> mmunication is and how hard we have to think about the source of the
> questi=
> on.  =3BWithout giving the issue serious consideration=2C the two
> sides=
> =2C experienced SW users and those seeking to understand what SW is all
> abo=
> ut=2C will never make contact and that would be a pity.  =3BBut as
> long=
> as people like Thiessen and Sutton are involved=2C there is hope that the
> =
> issue will not get too far out of control.</div>
> <div><br></div><div>With serious good intentions=2C</div><div>George
> Veroni=
> s  =3B</div><font
> color=3D"#888888"><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>=
>
> <br></div><div><br></div></font></span></div></div></div></blockquote></div=
> ><br><br clear=3D"all">
> <br>-- <br>Regards=2C Trevor.<br><br><=3B>=3B<=3B Re: deemed!<br>
>
> </div><br><br></div></div></div></div><br><br></div></div></blockquote></di=
> v></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>
> </body>
> </html>=
>
> --_1c443d88-23ae-4af4-aa6a-54d558f63d88_--
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of SW-L Digest - 4 Jun 2011 to 5 Jun 2011 (#2011-110)
> *********************************************************
>
>
--
Fernando C. Capovilla, PhD
Professor Associado, Instituto de Psicologia, USP
Coord Lab Neuropsicolinguística Cognitiva Experimental, IP-Usp
Av. Prof. Mello de Morais 1721, São Paulo, SP, 05508-030
http://www.ip.usp.br/lance/index.html
email: fcapovilla3 at gmail.com
site: http://www.ip.usp.br/lance/index.html
Veja nossos novos livros (sobre linguagem oral, escrita e de sinais), e
baixe alguns, de: http://www.ip.usp.br/lance/livros.html
Baixe artigos (sobre linguagem oral, escrita e de sinais) de:
http://www.ip.usp.br/lance/artigos.html
Baixe capítulos (sobre linguagem oral, escrita e de sinais) de:
http://www.ip.usp.br/lance/capitulos.html
Assista à entrevista concedida à TV Cultura sobre dislexia:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wL8DLAGG-Pg
Veja citação no Wikipedia pelo trabalho com lexicografia da Língua de Sinais
Brasileira (Libras):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_Sign_Language
Veja citação no Wikipedia pelo trabalho com escrita de sinais de Libras em
SignWriting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SignWriting
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