AW: Mundbilder in der GebaerdenSchrift
Charles Butler
chazzer3332000 at YAHOO.COM
Mon Oct 17 13:41:19 UTC 2011
Here is a challenge for you,
When I think of the shape of the mouth for the English words "red" and "green" I would be at a loss to show how that could be articulated with anything other than cued speech. The articulations on the face are precisely the same.
Their ASL signs are completely different, but a face model would not help unless it is a different kind of signal than a face.
That is the linguistic model of the two words. The G cannot be seen on the face, as a velar consonant it is simply not seen, and the D and the N are articulated in the same place on the visible tongue.
Cued speech, which indicates velar positions as well as lips and tongue, divides those out, and it has been used with spectacular success in English-language based classes in the U.S. to show writing English based on the spoken word.
I am not an expert in cued speech, I write ASL in SW with what knowledge I have, which is not highly detailed in terms of anything other than the P, F, and M articulations which appear in ASL not as indicators of English words but as articulators within ASL itself, not based on English, such as the PAH of success (with a P articulator and a breath), and the MMM of agreement.
What your system is used for is "visible German" which is a good thing of itself, but I have seen SW as a writing system for a language in and of itself, a conceptual language with its own grammar, so that the DELEGS system would need to be augmented at a separate level to show English and ASL compared for "production" reasons, in which case I would put the Gebaerdenschrift with the English not with the ASL. It's a cued system to show how German appears on the mouth, and I use the facial expressions to show how ASL appears on the mouth when it accompanies ASL, not as an augmenter to writing English.
Charles Butler
chazzer3332000 at yahoo.com
240-764-5748
Clear writing moves business forward.
--- On Mon, 10/17/11, Stefan Wöhrmann <stefanwoehrmann at GOOGLEMAIL.COM> wrote:
From: Stefan Wöhrmann <stefanwoehrmann at GOOGLEMAIL.COM>
Subject: AW: Mundbilder in der GebaerdenSchrift
To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
Date: Monday, October 17, 2011, 9:07 AM
Hi Charles, Ingvild, Valerie ...
“how can a child possibly write that on a board with a
piece of chalk and say "o this is simple".
It is exactly like this! Just contrary – if you ask a
deaf student to translate a given document presenting a transcription of signed
German or so much harder of DGS he/she is begging I should add more and more
Mundbilder in order to reduce the guessing game to a minimum!
I can understand that you feel confused looking a a
row of perhaps up to ten facial circles with given mouth-symbols – which I
defined to represent the impression as if speaking German ...
Once people catch the idea that there is a way to
transcribe “Speech” in this defined way there is no confusion anymore.
All the best
Stefan
Von: SignWriting
List: Read and Write Sign Languages [mailto:SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU] Im Auftrag von Charles Butler
Gesendet: Montag, 17. Oktober 2011
13:37
An:
SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
Betreff: Re: Mundbilder in der
GebaerdenSchrift
I guess people are misunderstanding what I'm saying,
DELEGS is the closest that I have seen to a DOS program that allowed people
to show grammatical differences and word/concept order on the same line or
within visual distance to help Deaf people read in their own language and
compare it to a spoken language rendering of the same concepts.
I would not want to show a Roman letter within a
sign, I'd be showing a facial expression probably quite similar to the
Gebarendenschrift, but I don't even know understand why so MANY faces
compressed. One may as well be using Cued Speech as one's augmentation, which
at least reduces the number of faces to a handful not a line of up to 10
faces.
I'm sorry, when I see a row of faces it confuses me,
I think signs, not whole clusters of faces. It may show every nuance of the articulation
of a face and for showing that to help with lipreading, it may be perfect,
but I look at it and think -- how can a child possibly write that on a board
with a piece of chalk and say "o this is simple". I guess I'm
looking for minimal pairs, what is the absolute minimum necessary to show an
articulation, which for the Deaf in the US was to strip the body away and
show much fewer facial markers than hearing users expected. The
Gebaredenschrift is created to be articulated by computer, as all these
programs are, but what of someone somewhere with only paper and pencil, not a
computer. If an EMP pulse comes along, all the programming in the world will
not survive but a pencil and paper will still function.
Charles
Charles Butler
chazzer3332000 at yahoo.com
240-764-5748
Clear writing moves business forward.
--- On Mon, 10/17/11, Stefan Wöhrmann <stefanwoehrmann at GOOGLEMAIL.COM>
wrote:
From: Stefan Wöhrmann <stefanwoehrmann at GOOGLEMAIL.COM>
Subject: Mundbilder in der GebaerdenSchrift
To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
Date: Monday, October 17, 2011, 6:49 AM
Hi Ingvild,
in order to
understand the difference between Mundbildschrift – a tool to support
articulation and listening-training - and Mundbilder in der
GebaerdenSchrift (what you might write in Signwriting in order to
present information coming from the lips and tongue) you may download this
file.
http://www.gebaerden.de/files/3187/upload/pdf_new/Mundbilder%20in%20der%20GebaerdenSchrift.pdf
Stefan ;-)
Von:
SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages
[mailto:SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU] Im
Auftrag von Ingvild Roald
Gesendet: Montag, 17. Oktober
2011 11:58
An:
SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
Betreff: Re: AW: Please help us
test SignWriter Studio Beta 5!!
I agree, the
Mundbildschrift and the Mundbilder the Gebäredenschrift are not the same -
but very useful.
The writing of 'words' beside the mouth was / is just a lazy (and formerly
only) way of writing the different mouthing of signs that are otherwise
similar. With Mundbildschrift this can be done directly - so I do not really
miss this oprtunity to write the latin letters near the mouth. Whith the
latin letters the connection to the Norwegian word is stressed, but letters
are not really part of SignWriting
I have looked at DELEGS - and I am refering to it in my lecture later this
week in the Netherlands - as I am to your Mundbildschrift - I am recomending
the use of SignWriting as part of making deaf children literate
Ingvild
Date: Mon, 17
Oct 2011 11:46:32 +0200
From: stefanwoehrmann at GOOGLEMAIL.COM
Subject: AW: Please help us test SignWriter Studio Beta 5!!
To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
Hi Ingvild and friends,
it is
interesting to understand that you agree with my concept that it is necessary
to add information coming from the lips- and tongue movements in order to
“understand” the exact meaning of a given sign.
“....Signs that are the same in
the hands and other movements, differ in the mouthing and make distinctive
signs that way. NSL claims to have no homonyms (two or more signs that look
exatly the same but have different meaning) because of this....”
Well my invention of
Mundbildschrift is not the same as my set of “Mundbilder in der
GebaerdenSchrift”
Nevertheless – thanks to the
studies of Erica Hoffmann with my students we found out that it is not
correct simply to add the letters of a word (spoken language) next to the
sign in order to avoid “Mundbilder”
To my very surprise I had to
understand – and this has been such an amazing experience – that even little
deaf children having no idea of how to write the spoken word – show almost
mouth – and tongue movement patterns that almost look like the same – as a
“informed” signer would perform.
Mouth movements are part of the
usual guessing game trying to understand from lip-reading. From my
actual point of view these Mundbilder which I defined to stand for special
patterns of movements that might result in specific sounds of a given spoken
language come pretty close to the best representation of what can be seen
(!!!) looking at a signing person.
And you are right – SignPuddle –
so far does not allow to type latin letters – as you could do with the DOS
Program. Did you get the chance to look at the German new softare Delegs?
Now you get the chance to look
for your signs almost loke in the good old SWDOS –program.
In addition to that you are able
to change the preferred sign alternative in every document without any
problem. You can copy this specific sign and paste it with this same variation.
You can write the best translation of the signwriting sentence beneath
this line and hide or show one or both lines! This is the perfect tool to
support deaf students to improve their spoken language skills. Just look at
the attached gif.
Our team is still busy, busy,
busy to complete our vision of an almost perfect SignWriting – software
program to support this idea which is the motto of our Editor: “Delegs” =
Deutsch lernen mit GebaerdenSchrift" = learn German assisted by
SignWriting".
All you need is a well fed dictionary and
this wonderful program.
All the best
Stefan
Von:
SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages
[mailto:SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU] Im
Auftrag von Ingvild Roald
Gesendet: Montag, 17. Oktober
2011 11:15
An:
SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
Betreff: Re: Please help us test
SignWriter Studio Beta 5!!
?
I don't think I can write a 'word' in latin letters beside a mouth in
SignPuddle, can I?
On the other hand, I DO love the newer software,
Ingvild
Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 09:11:06
-0700
From: sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG
Subject: Re: Please help us test SignWriter Studio Beta 5!!
To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
SignWriting List
October 16, 2011
Hi Ingvild and Charles!
Two thoughts...
First, SignWriter DOS is not past
tense - it is not in the past. I am using it right now, and so can anyone.
Just download DOSBOX and install it:
DOSBOX
http://www.dosbox.com/
Second, software like SignWriter
DOS and SignPuddle 1.6, actually has little to do with how you write. You can
write the Norwegian mouth movements in any style you choose in SignPuddle 1.6
too - software is not a theory of writing - so there are no limits to your
writing styles when it comes to Mouth Movements in either software program...
The only limits to SignWriter DOS
usage is that it uses a smaller symbolset (sss1995) and it cannot write down
in vertical columns - but other than that there are no limitations on your
writing styles no matter which software program you choose -
I think what you really are
saying is that you enjoyed writing the old way - and that is fine because you
can continue to write the old way!
smile -
We are adding a lot of Norwegian
signs and documents - have you notice?I am so happy about it!
SignPuddle for Norway
http://www.signbank.org/signpuddle/index.html#sgn-NO
There are close to 3000 signs now
in the dictionary and the literature puddle is growing too - we may need to
move some of the individual signs from the literature puddle to the
dictionary puddle, but we will do that work later - Thank you for all your
old SignWriter DOS files, Ingvild! I am happy to build a sign language corpus
in SignPuddle Online for all countries -
Val ;-)
---------
On Oct 16, 2011, at 5:36 AM,
Ingvild Roald wrote:
Another good
thing about the DOS-program was the possibility to write the mouthed 'words'
near the mouth, rather than using the later invention of Mundbildschrift',
for those signed languages that use a lot of mouthing in the signs. Norwegian
SL uses mouthing a lot, especially for nouns. Signs that are the same in the
hands and other movements, differ in the mouthing and make distinctive signs
that way. NSL claims to have no homonyms (two or more signs that look exatly
the same but have different meaning) because of this.
Ingvild
Date: Sat, 15
Oct 2011 19:03:24 -0700
From: chazzer3332000 at YAHOO.COM
Subject: Re: Please help us test SignWriter Studio Beta 5!!
To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
Part of it is to understand that many educational
systems use Sign Writing to show the grammar comparing a local sign
language to the local spoken language.
The useful thing about SW Dos is that one can use
the spoken language, the signed language, and fingerspelling so that one
can compare gramatically, very similar to the current German system.
Thank you for your attention. Charles
Charles Butler
chazzer3332000 at yahoo.com
240-764-5748
Clear writing moves business forward.
--- On Thu, 10/13/11, Jonathan <duncanjonathan at YAHOO.CA> wrote:
From: Jonathan <duncanjonathan at YAHOO.CA>
Subject: Re: Please help us test SignWriter Studio Beta 5!!
To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
Date: Thursday, October 13, 2011, 11:09 AM
Hi Charles,
I just tried out SignWriter DOS to see exactly what you
are talking about. I see you can type right over a sign if you
want to, below, above and if you type a long sentence the other signs move
over. Is it important for you that the be place on top of the signs
too? Or is it more important for you to be able to write some text,
then some signs, then some text, etc?
Had I realized that so many just LOVE the old SignWriter
Dos I may have gotten permission to duplicate it very faithfully.
With SignWriter Studio some things may be similar but none are
identical. Right now I am trying to get the three main parts of the
program working, the dictionary ( I will soon have a preview version
available), the signlist (for printing lists of signs from the dictionary)
and the document. Once I get everything working again after
changing to ISWA 2010 and a new database, I am interested in implement a
keyboard like SignWriter DOS. But first things first.
The document isn't functional right now. Also it
only deals with vertical columns of writing for the time being. It
can have text above the sign up to the width of the sign, then it wraps
onto more lines. At present there isn't any way of writing just text
without a sign but it shouldn't be too hard to implement. The
editing of the signs is done in a popup box instead of directly in the
document like SignWriter DOS. A lot of thought has been put into it
to use the keyboard but it may need a few more adjustments yet.
Thank you for sharing this important feature with me and list.
Jonathan
On 10/10/2011 9:48 AM, Charles Butler wrote:
Jonathan, What I really want is SignWriter DOS
on a modern system.
In that program you could interleave written alphabets and sign writing.
Clunky, but effective.
You could clip signs from a narrative and put them somewhere else.
It was a true typing system for signing so that you could assemble a sign
by typing on a keyboard not a mouse. Yes, I know that the current encoding
of the ISWA is dependent upon a linking of graphemes and coding
equivalents.
None of the Studios or other efforts have gone back to actual interleaved
Spoken Language and Signed Language. I can clip a sign and put it in here
, in TEXT, when does THAT come back in a program. I
feel like we are continuing to take a great leap backward. Until one can
type or easily assemble, one can't' send email that is in sign language
with a spoken language. IF Chinese can do it, I am disappointed in every
Sign Writing compiler on the market that can't interleave.
Charles Butler
This is an email program and I can do that, but the SW studio and all
other programs do not do that.
Charles Butler
chazzer3332000 at yahoo.com
240-764-5748
Clear writing moves business forward.
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Tel: 2213-5285
Skype: yojoduncan
SignWriter
Studio
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Tel: 2213-5285
Skype: yojoduncan
SignWriter
Studio
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