AW: Mundbilder in der GebaerdenSchrift
Bill Reese
wreese01 at TAMPABAY.RR.COM
Mon Oct 17 13:52:18 UTC 2011
Sorry, Stefan, I didn't mean to contradict you. I was giving thought to
an eventual maturation of sign language where a sign will be known by a
student to represent a given concept, not that it would provide
articulation clues.
Just a question, do you ever think that more advanced students could
ever use an abbreviated form of a sign and remember how to articulate
that sign in German?
Bill
On 10/17/2011 9:35 AM, Stefan Wöhrmann wrote:
>
> Hello Bill,
>
> thank you very much for your comment. Well I have to explain that your
> assumptions to not go along with my practical experience of teaching
> deaf students for more than 10 years now using this concept.
>
> It is not only for the purpose of articulation but very much to
> identify a given sign in its meaning -- if you are asked to write a
> German translation. I had been so amazed to learn how difficult it is
> for a deaf student to write down what you explain -- even if you use
> signed German. They are no fools so they catch the idea between the
> lines -- but they have to be trained to focus on themselves: Would I
> be able to write it down. And lots and lots of mistakes related to
> vocabulary and grammar will be the result if you really get to the
> point to run this test.
>
> My students do exactly what you cannot imagine. With so much
> competence they write any Mundbild-Sequence by hand -- no problem at
> all whatsoever! And of course we tried many different things to
> reduce the amount of the Mundbilder. For example if you count from one
> to hundred -- it is self understood that you do not need a l l the
> Mundbilder. Same is true if you know that you are talking about
> colors. If it comes down to sign names (Stefan, Valerie, Bill... )
> that are known to the students we follow the method from Nicaragua and
> add this tiny line underneath -- so no extra Mundbild is necessary.
>
> On the other hand -- believe me -- You would not believe how much
> advantage can be taken out of every single Mundbild if the words are
> difficult to differentiate or if they are new terms ...
>
> Attached you find a document -- it is not finished. The whole document
> will be far more than 100 pages. And we feel blessed and honoured that
> the software Team at Hamburg are so sensitive and competent to create
> exact that kind of software that really fits to our needs. My students
> look at this document and are asked to write or read out loud the
> German translation. Although it is written in signed German it is a
> very difficult task. We understand that we have to edit this document
> in order to be able to write the translation without too much
> guessing! It is not the final stage so far. So we will add more
> Mundbilder in the future and I can imagine the big smile in their
> faces because then they will be able to improve their Spoken German
> skills dramatically!
>
> We also tried a string of Mundbilder without the face circles as you
> suggest. -- big smile -
>
> We do not do that -- guess why!
>
> Right now it seems to be a wonderful way to support deaf children to
> develop higher skills in Spoken Language if we write GebaredenSchrift
> as we do.
>
> All the best
>
> Stefan
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *Von:*SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages
> [mailto:SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU] *Im Auftrag von *Bill Reese
> *Gesendet:* Montag, 17. Oktober 2011 14:56
> *An:* SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
> *Betreff:* Re: Mundbilder in der GebaerdenSchrift
>
> Charles,
> I have to agree with you on this. It seems to be a lot of extra
> writing. But, as Stephen pointed out, it could be used for
> articulation training but not necessarily the sign itself. As a
> research or training tool, you wouldn't have a child in school going
> to the blackboard to write it.
>
> I would imagine that, for Ingvild and other's who's sign language
> differentiates signs by mouth movements that the different signs
> could, conceivably, be written with just the first mouth movement (if
> they're dissimilar) or the mouth movement that is more dominant or is
> different between signs.
>
> On the other hand, I would also presume it's possible to write a
> string of mouth movements without the face, similar to the concept of
> writing Latin letters next to the mouth.
>
> Bill
>
>
> On 10/17/2011 7:36 AM, Charles Butler wrote:
>
> I guess people are misunderstanding what I'm saying, DELEGS is the
> closest that I have seen to a DOS program that allowed people to show
> grammatical differences and word/concept order on the same line or
> within visual distance to help Deaf people read in their own language
> and compare it to a spoken language rendering of the same concepts.
>
> I would not want to show a Roman letter within a sign, I'd be showing
> a facial expression probably quite similar to the Gebarendenschrift,
> but I don't even know understand why so MANY faces compressed. One may
> as well be using Cued Speech as one's augmentation, which at least
> reduces the number of faces to a handful not a line of up to 10 faces.
>
> I'm sorry, when I see a row of faces it confuses me, I think signs,
> not whole clusters of faces. It may show every nuance of the
> articulation of a face and for showing that to help with lipreading,
> it may be perfect, but I look at it and think -- how can a child
> possibly write that on a board with a piece of chalk and say "o this
> is simple". I guess I'm looking for minimal pairs, what is the
> absolute minimum necessary to show an articulation, which for the Deaf
> in the US was to strip the body away and show much fewer facial
> markers than hearing users expected. The Gebaredenschrift is created
> to be articulated by computer, as all these programs are, but what of
> someone somewhere with only paper and pencil, not a computer. If an
> EMP pulse comes along, all the programming in the world will not
> survive but a pencil and paper will still function.
>
> Charles
>
>
>
> Charles Butler
> chazzer3332000 at yahoo.com <mailto:chazzer3332000 at yahoo.com>
> 240-764-5748
> Clear writing moves business forward.
>
> --- On *Mon, 10/17/11, Stefan Wöhrmann
> /<stefanwoehrmann at GOOGLEMAIL.COM>
> <mailto:stefanwoehrmann at GOOGLEMAIL.COM>/* wrote:
>
>
> From: Stefan Wöhrmann <stefanwoehrmann at GOOGLEMAIL.COM>
> <mailto:stefanwoehrmann at GOOGLEMAIL.COM>
> Subject: Mundbilder in der GebaerdenSchrift
> To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
> <mailto:SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU>
> Date: Monday, October 17, 2011, 6:49 AM
>
> Hi Ingvild,
>
> in order to understand the difference between Mundbildschrift -- a
> tool to support articulation and listening-training - and Mundbilder
> in der GebaerdenSchrift (what you might write in Signwriting in order
> to present information coming from the lips and tongue) you may
> download this file.
>
> http://www.gebaerden.de/files/3187/upload/pdf_new/Mundbilder%20in%20der%20GebaerdenSchrift.pdf
>
> Stefan ;-)
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *Von:*SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages
> [mailto:SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU] *Im Auftrag von *Ingvild Roald
> *Gesendet:* Montag, 17. Oktober 2011 11:58
> *An:* SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
> <mailto:SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU>
> *Betreff:* Re: AW: Please help us test SignWriter Studio Beta 5!!
>
> I agree, the Mundbildschrift and the Mundbilder the Gebäredenschrift
> are not the same - but very useful.
>
> The writing of 'words' beside the mouth was / is just a lazy (and
> formerly only) way of writing the different mouthing of signs that are
> otherwise similar. With Mundbildschrift this can be done directly - so
> I do not really miss this oprtunity to write the latin letters near
> the mouth. Whith the latin letters the connection to the Norwegian
> word is stressed, but letters are not really part of SignWriting
>
> I have looked at DELEGS - and I am refering to it in my lecture later
> this week in the Netherlands - as I am to your Mundbildschrift - I am
> recomending the use of SignWriting as part of making deaf children
> literate
>
> Ingvild
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 11:46:32 +0200
> From: stefanwoehrmann at GOOGLEMAIL.COM
> <mailto:stefanwoehrmann at GOOGLEMAIL.COM>
> Subject: AW: Please help us test SignWriter Studio Beta 5!!
> To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
> <mailto:SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU>
>
> Hi Ingvild and friends,
>
> it is interesting to understand that you agree with my concept that it
> is necessary to add information coming from the lips- and tongue
> movements in order to "understand" the exact meaning of a given sign.
>
> "....Signs that are the same in the hands and other movements, differ
> in the mouthing and make distinctive signs that way. NSL claims to
> have no homonyms (two or more signs that look exatly the same but have
> different meaning) because of this...."
>
> Well my invention of Mundbildschrift is not the same as my set of
> "Mundbilder in der GebaerdenSchrift"
>
> Nevertheless -- thanks to the studies of Erica Hoffmann with my
> students we found out that it is not correct simply to add the letters
> of a word (spoken language) next to the sign in order to avoid
> "Mundbilder"
>
> To my very surprise I had to understand -- and this has been such an
> amazing experience -- that even little deaf children having no idea of
> how to write the spoken word -- show almost mouth -- and tongue
> movement patterns that almost look like the same -- as a "informed"
> signer would perform.
>
> Mouth movements are part of the usual guessing game trying to
> understand from lip-reading. From my actual point of view these
> Mundbilder which I defined to stand for special patterns of movements
> that might result in specific sounds of a given spoken language come
> pretty close to the best representation of what can be seen (!!!)
> looking at a signing person.
>
> And you are right -- SignPuddle -- so far does not allow to type latin
> letters -- as you could do with the DOS Program. Did you get the
> chance to look at the German new softare Delegs?
>
> Now you get the chance to look for your signs almost loke in the good
> old SWDOS --program.
>
> In addition to that you are able to change the preferred sign
> alternative in every document without any problem. You can copy this
> specific sign and paste it with this same variation. You can write the
> best translation of the signwriting sentence beneath this line and
> hide or show one or both lines! This is the perfect tool to support
> deaf students to improve their spoken language skills. Just look at
> the attached gif.
>
> Our team is still busy, busy, busy to complete our vision of an almost
> perfect SignWriting -- software program to support this idea which is
> the motto of our Editor: "Delegs" = Deutsch lernen mit
> GebaerdenSchrift" = learn German assisted by SignWriting".
>
> All you need is a well fed dictionary and this wonderful program.
>
> All the best
>
> Stefan
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *Von:*SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages
> [mailto:SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU] *Im Auftrag von *Ingvild Roald
> *Gesendet:* Montag, 17. Oktober 2011 11:15
> *An:* SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
> <mailto:SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU>
> *Betreff:* Re: Please help us test SignWriter Studio Beta 5!!
>
> ?
>
> I don't think I can write a 'word' in latin letters beside a mouth in
> SignPuddle, can I?
>
> On the other hand, I DO love the newer software,
>
> Ingvild
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 09:11:06 -0700
> From: sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG <mailto:sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG>
> Subject: Re: Please help us test SignWriter Studio Beta 5!!
> To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
> <mailto:SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU>
>
> SignWriting List
>
> October 16, 2011
>
> Hi Ingvild and Charles!
>
> Two thoughts...
>
> First, SignWriter DOS is not past tense - it is not in the past. I am
> using it right now, and so can anyone. Just download DOSBOX and
> install it:
>
> DOSBOX
>
> http://www.dosbox.com/
>
> Second, software like SignWriter DOS and SignPuddle 1.6, actually has
> little to do with how you write. You can write the Norwegian mouth
> movements in any style you choose in SignPuddle 1.6 too - software is
> not a theory of writing - so there are no limits to your writing
> styles when it comes to Mouth Movements in either software program...
>
> The only limits to SignWriter DOS usage is that it uses a smaller
> symbolset (sss1995) and it cannot write down in vertical columns - but
> other than that there are no limitations on your writing styles no
> matter which software program you choose -
>
> I think what you really are saying is that you enjoyed writing the old
> way - and that is fine because you can continue to write the old way!
>
> smile -
>
> We are adding a lot of Norwegian signs and documents - have you
> notice?I am so happy about it!
>
> SignPuddle for Norway
>
> http://www.signbank.org/signpuddle/index.html#sgn-NO
>
> There are close to 3000 signs now in the dictionary and the literature
> puddle is growing too - we may need to move some of the individual
> signs from the literature puddle to the dictionary puddle, but we will
> do that work later - Thank you for all your old SignWriter DOS files,
> Ingvild! I am happy to build a sign language corpus in SignPuddle
> Online for all countries -
>
> Val ;-)
>
> ---------
>
> On Oct 16, 2011, at 5:36 AM, Ingvild Roald wrote:
>
> Another good thing about the DOS-program was the possibility to
> write the mouthed 'words' near the mouth, rather than using the
> later invention of Mundbildschrift', for those signed languages
> that use a lot of mouthing in the signs. Norwegian SL uses
> mouthing a lot, especially for nouns. Signs that are the same in
> the hands and other movements, differ in the mouthing and make
> distinctive signs that way. NSL claims to have no homonyms (two or
> more signs that look exatly the same but have different meaning)
> because of this.
>
> Ingvild
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 19:03:24 -0700
> From:chazzer3332000 at YAHOO.COM
> </mc/compose?to=chazzer3332000 at YAHOO.COM>
> Subject: Re: Please help us test SignWriter Studio Beta 5!!
> To:SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
> </mc/compose?to=SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU>
>
> Part of it is to understand that many educational systems use Sign
> Writing to show the grammar comparing a local sign language to the
> local spoken language.
>
> The useful thing about SW Dos is that one can use the spoken
> language, the signed language, and fingerspelling so that one can
> compare gramatically, very similar to the current German system.
>
> Thank you for your attention. Charles
>
>
>
> Charles Butler
> chazzer3332000 at yahoo.com </mc/compose?to=chazzer3332000 at yahoo.com>
> 240-764-5748
> Clear writing moves business forward.
>
> --- On*Thu, 10/13/11, Jonathan/<duncanjonathan at YAHOO.CA
> </mc/compose?to=duncanjonathan at YAHOO.CA>>/*wrote:
>
>
> From: Jonathan <duncanjonathan at YAHOO.CA
> </mc/compose?to=duncanjonathan at YAHOO.CA>>
> Subject: Re: Please help us test SignWriter Studio Beta 5!!
> To:SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
> </mc/compose?to=SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU>
> Date: Thursday, October 13, 2011, 11:09 AM
>
> Hi Charles,
> I just tried out SignWriter DOS to see exactly what you are
> talking about. I see you can type right over a sign if you want
> to, below, above and if you type a long sentence the other signs
> move over. Is it important for you that the be place on top of
> the signs too? Or is it more important for you to be able to
> write some text, then some signs, then some text, etc?
> Had I realized that so many just LOVE the old SignWriter Dos I
> may have gotten permission to duplicate it very faithfully. With
> SignWriter Studio some things may be similar but none are
> identical. Right now I am trying to get the three main parts of
> the program working, the dictionary ( I will soon have a preview
> version available), the signlist (for printing lists of signs from
> the dictionary) and the document. Once I get everything working
> again after changing to ISWA 2010 and a new database, I am
> interested in implement a keyboard like SignWriter DOS. But first
> things first.
> The document isn't functional right now. Also it only deals
> with vertical columns of writing for the time being. It can have
> text above the sign up to the width of the sign, then it wraps
> onto more lines. At present there isn't any way of writing just
> text without a sign but it shouldn't be too hard to implement.
> The editing of the signs is done in a popup box instead of
> directly in the document like SignWriter DOS. A lot of thought
> has been put into it to use the keyboard but it may need a few
> more adjustments yet.
>
> Thank you for sharing this important feature with me and list.
>
> Jonathan
>
> On 10/10/2011 9:48 AM, Charles Butler wrote:
>
> Jonathan, What I really want is SignWriter DOS on a modern system.
>
> In that program you could interleave written alphabets and sign
> writing. Clunky, but effective.
>
> You could clip signs from a narrative and put them somewhere else.
>
> It was a true typing system for signing so that you could assemble
> a sign by typing on a keyboard not a mouse. Yes, I know that the
> current encoding of the ISWA is dependent upon a linking of
> graphemes and coding equivalents.
>
> None of the Studios or other efforts have gone back to actual
> interleaved Spoken Language and Signed Language. I can clip a sign
> and put it in here
> , in TEXT, when does THAT come back in a program. I feel like we
> are continuing to take a great leap backward. Until one can type
> or easily assemble, one can't' send email that is in sign language
> with a spoken language. IF Chinese can do it, I am disappointed in
> every Sign Writing compiler on the market that can't interleave.
>
> Charles Butler
>
> This is an email program and I can do that, but the SW studio and
> all other programs do not do that.
>
>
> Charles Butler
> chazzer3332000 at yahoo.com
> <http://mc/compose?to=chazzer3332000%40yahoo.com>
> 240-764-5748
> Clear writing moves business forward.
>
> **
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> *email:duncanjonathan at yahoo.ca <mailto:duncanjonathan at yahoo.ca>
> joyoduncan at gmail.com <mailto:joyoduncan at gmail.com>
> Cel: 9983-1204
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>
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