AW: both-hand arrow

Mon Feb 27 20:41:49 UTC 2012

Hi Val, 

I agree – 

“I think they will see there is a real use for the original way the system
was designed –“

All the best

Stefan 

  _____  

Von: SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages
[mailto:SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU] Im Auftrag von Valerie Sutton
Gesendet: Montag, 27. Februar 2012 21:08
An: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
Betreff: Re: both-hand arrow

SignWriting List

February 27, 2012

Hello Eda, Yuri, Fernando and everyone -

Thank you for writing, and thank you, Yuri, for your explanation in
Portuguese - I am looking forward to studying your messages too - I do
appreciate the effort you made. Thank you!

And I am so looking forward to telling the world about Fernando Capovilla's
new dictionary which will be published soon. I feel so honored that Fernando
and his team have included SignWriting and worked so hard on the thousands
of entries - A huge job - For those who do not know about the dictionaries:

Novo Diet-LIBRAS Dictionary

http://www.signwriting.org/brazil/NovoDeitLibras.html

So Eda, Yuri, Fernando, and everyone - Your efforts to write LIBRAS are
admirable - Fernando and I have already discussed the issues of
SignSpellings - There were so many different Deaf writers of the
dictionaries which Fernando has produced, and we all know that some of them
may not have had the time for proper instruction in SignWriting
and we have
discussed trying to correct or re-write some of the SignSpellings in the
dictionaries, and I actually did a little work on that with Fernando last
year, but there are so many signs that I felt overwhelmed, So it is no one's
fault, but there are some SignSpellings that are not the way I write, in the
dictionaries
But I LOVE the dictionaries
no matter what...I am very happy
and proud of the publications because we all know that writing has to start
somewhere
without dictionaries there would be no writing at all
and so that
is why I am explaining this to you all now, so that you can be informed and
share the information with your co-workers and writers - Of course we can
understand each other's writings, but it is good to know why we write as we
do
.

I believe that most writers do not know this about the Movement Arrows - and
if they understand the reason behind the Black, White and Grey (General)
Arrowheads, I think they will see there is a real use for the original way
the system was designed -

Here is the explanation:

The black arrow paints the right movement path. The white arrow paints the
left movement path. When the right and left hands move far apart from each
other, they paint two separate paths - one black and one white. That way, we
can see the difference between movement with the right hand and movement
with the left hand - This is important for linguistic reasons and for
writing complex movement sequences when writing storytelling
Here are easy
examples:

BUT, imagine that your two hands move, and the black movement path writes on
top of the white movement path
That is a grey or General Movement Arrow - as
you can see here, in the sign for FOLLOW in ASL, the right hand is behind
the left hand and follows the left hand
so the two movement paths blend and
become one path
they are not contacting each other in this case, but it is a
General Arrowhead because the paths blend...

So now, let us take your examples. In the signs attached below, these signs
show that the two hands are far apart from each other and move with separate
paths. These signs are written correctly in this example, because they show
the black and white paths a good space from each other, just like the
starting position of the hands:

But below, these signs are read differently. They mean something else. They
show me that the hands start far apart from each other, but the Movement
Path is blended together into one, which means that the black paint and the
white paint are writing on top of each other
so that must mean that the two
hands moved into the center to be closer to each other and then moved down
either on top of each other, or maybe contacting each other, to create a
single grey movement path going down - it is a different movement for me - 

Of course I can guess what you meant, because I know there are
misunderstandings in the teachings, but I want you to know, Eda, how the
system was designed. For simple signs like these I can imagine you wonder
why it is necessary to show paths so exactly? That is because when we start
to write complex storytelling, there are times when the Black, White and
Grey (General) arrowheads are the only information we have for complex
sequences - sometimes the right hand can be over on the left side of the
body, or behind the body, in mime like sequences and the three movement
paths are needed to be able to read the movement correctly

Thank you for asking questions and no worries - If you can start writing the
way the system is designed, it will help when writing storytelling in LIBRAS
later. Have you done that kind of writing? Have you written books, or long
stories?

Val ;-)

-------------

On Feb 27, 2012, at 10:15 AM, Eda AMORim wrote:

Olá, Val tudo bem?

Entendi a sua explicação.

Mas me parece que a maioria das pessoas que usam a escrita de sinais
entenderam que; se as duas mão fazem o mesmo movimento para a mesma direção
, então usa-se seta de ponta aberta (General Arrow ) independente se elas
estão sobrepostas ou não. Um exemplo disso são os sinais extraídos do
dicionário Trilíngue  Capovilla.

Hello, Val okay?
I understood his explanation.
But it seems that most people who use writing signals understood that if
both hands are doing the same move in the same direction, then it uses
open-headed arrow (General Arrow) regardless if they are overlapping or not.
An example of this signals are extracted from the dictionary Trilingual
Capovilla.

 Orgulhoso                orientador        original

Me parece que se tais sinais forem escritos com a seta de ponta aberta
(General Arrow ) a leitura não saíra errada, porque entendo que as duas mão
se movimentam para a mesma direção.

It seems to me that such signs are written with the open-headed arrow
(General Arrow) reading had not come out wrong, because I believe that both
hands movein the same direction.

¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨

Essa então seria a forma correta de escrever os sinais acima? Me parece que
nas duas grafias não haverá erro na leitura dos sinais.

This then would be the correct way to write the above signs? Seems to me
that the two spellings no error in reading the signs.

Val, desculpe se não estou entendendo ou se fiz alguma confusão.

Val, sorry if I do not understand or did some confusion.

Beijos

Eda Amorim
Intérprete/Tradutora e Profa. de Língua Brasileira de Sinais
Especialista em Educação de Surdos

 CENTRO EDUCACIONAL CULTURA SURDA LTDA.
(11) 3416-7888 
(11) 2626-4945
(11) 9168-6761 
contato at cultursurda.com.br
www.culturasurda.com.br <http://www.culturasurda.com.br/> 

  _____  

Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2012 06:51:27 -0800
From: nempretonembranco at YAHOO.COM.BR
Subject: Re: both-hand arrow
To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU

It will be a pleasure!

I love spelling! (For the sign languages... For the oral languages , NO!
NEVER! lol) 

--- Em sáb, 25/2/12, Valerie Sutton <sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG> escreveu:

De: Valerie Sutton <sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG>
Assunto: Re: both-hand arrow
Para: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
Data: Sábado, 25 de Fevereiro de 2012, 5:31

SignWriting List

February 24, 2012

You know, the General Arrow is not a "both-hand" arrow - it is an
"overlapping path" arrow -

Yuri - Can I ask you a favor? Can you teach the "SignWriting in Brazil
Facebook group " about Overlapping Paths in Portuguese?

Google Translate does not do a perfect job - Here is the Google Translation
- Can you fix the Portuguese for me? Many thanks!!  Val ;-)

----------

As setas direita, esquerda e Geral estão representando "os caminhos do
movimento".

Imagine sua mão direita tem tinta preta sobre ela. Sua mão esquerda tem
pintura branca. Há um caminho preto, e um caminho branco mostrando o
movimento no espaço.

Agora imagine duas mãos se movendo para baixo, lado a lado. Eles pintam dois
caminhos separados no espaço ... um caminho negro e um caminho branco.

Mas agora imaginar as duas mãos, com um acima do outro, mas não contactando
... simplesmente um acima do outro.Quando as duas mãos começam a mover-se
juntos, as tintas acima um em cima do caminho do outro no fundo ... Os
doiscombinam caminhos ... E quando eles se misturam ... você não pode ver
preto ou branco - torna-se cinza e ... de modo que o caminho é o GREY
Arrowhead Geral ...

Eles também poderiam ser entrar em contato ... mas os caminhos a preto e
branco têm de se sobrepor, para se tornar cinza.Não requer contato.

Isto é ensinado nos livros didáticos "Basics Signwriting" a partir de 2009,
que é gratuito para download na web. Ir para:

SignWriting Aulas on-line
http://www.SignWriting.org/lessons

e baixar o número 1 na página web - Noções básicas chamadas Signwriting.

Aqui está o trecho do livro, na página 34 do livro (número de página no
livro) ... a página PDF é a página 39 -

-----

The Right, Left and General Arrowheads are representing "movement paths".

Imagine your right hand has black paint on it. Your left hand has white
paint on it. There is a black path, and a white path showing movement in
space.

Now imagine two hands moving down, side by side. They paint two separate
paths in space
a black path and a white path.

But now imagine the two hands with one above the other one, but NOT
contacting
just simply one above the other. When the two hands start to move
down together, the one above paints on top of the path of the one on the
bottom
the two paths blend
and when they blend
you can no longer see black
or white - it becomes grey
 and so the GREY path is the General Arrowhead

They could also be contacting
but the black and white paths have to overlap,
to become GREY. It does not require contact.

This is taught in the textbook "SignWriting Basics" from 2009, which is free
for download on the web. Go to:

SignWriting Lessons Online

http://www.SignWriting.org/lessons

and download number 1 on that web page - called SignWriting Basics.

Here is the excerpt from that book, on page 34 in the book (number page in
the book)
 the PDF page is page 39 -

On Feb 24, 2012, at 6:31 PM, Yuri Barreto wrote:

     Well, in an economical way, I believe that is so good ... 

--- Em sex, 24/2/12, Stefan Wöhrmann <stefanwoehrmann at GOOGLEMAIL.COM
<http://mc/compose?to=stefanwoehrmann%40GOOGLEMAIL.COM> > escreveu:

De: Stefan Wöhrmann <stefanwoehrmann at GOOGLEMAIL.COM
<http://mc/compose?to=stefanwoehrmann%40GOOGLEMAIL.COM> >
Assunto: AW: both-hand arrow
Para: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
<http://mc/compose?to=SW-L%40LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU> 
Data: Sexta-feira, 24 de Fevereiro de 2012, 19:50

Hi friends,

I would prefer this spelling –

Stefan ;-)

  _____  

Von: SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages
[mailto:SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU] Im Auftrag vonValerie Sutton
Gesendet: Freitag, 24. Februar 2012 21:30
An: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
<http://mc/compose?to=SW-L%40LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU> 
Betreff: Re: both-hand arrow

SignWriting List

February 24, 2012

Regarding this, let me show you a really beautiful writing in SignWriting
from Brazil, by Yuri, who posted this on Facebook, and thank you, Yuri, for
this posting - I was so happy to see it - I love seeing your SignWriting - I
hope you don't mind that I point to one of your SignSpellings ;-)

Notice the arrow in the first sign -

In this case, for me, this is not a General Arrowhead - the two paths are
not overlapping into GREY
it would be a right and left arrowhead - The right
arrow is written over the right hand and the left arrow is written over the
left hand - the Rub symbol could be written once between the two arrows

here is an example...

Val ;-)

--------

On Feb 24, 2012, at 12:11 PM, Valerie Sutton wrote:

SignWriting List

February 24, 2012

Hello SignWriting List, Honza, Ingvild, Kimberley -

Thank you for the question and the responses
 I realize that you may be
using the General Arrowhead differently than the way I teach it
and all is
ok. Part of the reason there has been confusion is that our older textbooks
did not explain this well, in fact I believe the old textbook said "if they
contact, it is General, and that is true, but it is not the whole story
 so
you can put the blame on my old textbooks ;-)

I have wanted to explain this better for a long time
It is a subject I had
been planning to bring up here on the List, so thank you for the question
Honza -

You see, the General Arrowhead means "Overlapping Paths". I always imagine
Marcel Marceau, the famous classic mime artist, with his hands in black and
white paint, painting imaginary paths of movement in space

So here is how I teach it: