signpuddle entry disappeared?
maria.azzopardi at UM.EDU.MT
Thu Sep 27 21:36:36 UTC 2012
Thank you for your response Charles - helps me understand better the role
and work carried out by an editor. If you are checking and consulting
about your choices - then they are NOT just subjective choices, I think
they are well-informed choices. Also the 'flagging' entries is a very
good idea. Flagging 'experiment' 'practice' etc etc.
However the 9 variants of spelling the same sign in ASL provide
interesting data about the evolution of an orthography - that's my point.
It would be a shame not to keep record of it. (Imagine very old texts of
written English..nowadays these texts are ground for research and shed
light on how written orthography English evolved).
> Dear Maria,
> Right now we are working on a Wikipedia, and I use the ASL Puddle to
> compare entries. When I see a difference in a sign, I post that sign for
> discussion to ensure that what I write or read is actually accurate and
> the clearest spelling. Sometimes there are nine different entries for a
> given gloss, and I have to choose the one that to me is most accurate.
> Granted, that is entirely subjective, which your linguists may be
> disgruntled at, but if, over time, a body of literature grows in
> Wikipedia, more and more users will be using familiar writings that have
> become the "default" user-most-friendly writings.
> If one sign were written expressive, and another receptive, they are the
> same sign, they are reverses of each other, but if a sign is written that
> shows my right hand doing something and using a left arrow to show its
> movement, that is wrong on its face, factually wrong, not simply
> stylistically variant. You can't write an EEE sound with an AY, it can't
> be read. A movement up is not a movement out.
> Those are the kinds of edits that I have been looking at in LIBRAS. The
> published LIBRAS dictionary has descriptions as well as pictures, and if
> the arrows and palm facings don't match the description or the video, then
> the video and the description win. I'm going through the published
> dictionary, no more than 4 or 5 signs at a time, to put into the
> SignPuddle the most accurate transcription I can. In working with the
> editors of that published dictionary, they knew that there were a number
> of errors that would require a teacher certified in the system to note and
> correct before they put them on line. That's what I am doing, and if I am
> confused, a take the time to check with three or four native users of
> LIBRAS before I even put it in the SignPuddle.
> I don't remove things out of any dictionary without consulting the
> writers, but if something seems to be an "experiment" I am going to flag
> them as "experiment" so I can leave them alone, particularly if I don't
> know the source, don't have any kind of definition, and they look like
> The SignPuddle is an amazing resource, and I don't want to see it less
> accessible, but there must be a way to separate out a "real" sign that has
> been vetted and compared to one which is just a "stab in the dark". My way
> is to quote the source, to put my name on it so that people can contact
> me, and try to put a clear definition of the sign, which sometimes fails
> to completely convey a translation.
> i expect the same courtesy from others, don't put something in the
> SignPuddle as an "experiment" without stating so, and be willing to put
> your name on it. Think of it as an exercise board, if you must, but I'm a
> teacher, and part of my job is pointing out things that are "errors" not
> simply "variations."
> Charles Butler
> chazzer3332000 at yahoo.com
> Clear writing moves business forward.
> From: MARIA GALEA <maria.azzopardi at UM.EDU.MT>
> To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
> Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 4:28 PM
> Subject: Re: signpuddle entry disappeared?
> Wow, what has happened here is really interesting, and it's something
> that's been on my mind for a long time.
> For starters this is another clear indicatin that signwriting is becoming
> In the SLLING list there was a discussion about HamNoSys and SignWriting -
> and sign linguists were criticizing SignPuddle Dictionaries for not being
> traditional 'dictionaries' in the linguistic sense (1 lexeme: 1 entry)-
> and they are right - but this does not mean that SignPuddles are not a
> rich resource in themselves. They store written sign language entries not
> just by linguists but by common folk, and this makes all entries in
> SignPuddle an invaluable resource - since for a writing system to be truly
> a writing system it needs to be accepted, and written by a community of
> language users. If SignPuddle was a linguistic database, it would lose its
> uniqueness. What makes SignPuddle so strong - paradoxically is what
> linguists criticize as weak - the way data is entered into Puddle in such
> a non-academic way : i see this a major strength :)
> I see the public SignPuddles as editing tools for anyone using SignWriting
> who wishes to write and store SignWritten entries in a particular
> However my question now: are the public SignPuddles truly public? To have
> an editor in a public SignPuddle 'respelling' and deleting entries to me
> indicates that they are not very public. It might be a good time to
> re-think what the aims and purposes of Public SignPuddles are. I can
> understand that an editor would have to remove 'mistakes' etc..but the
> mistakes are his/her interpretation of mistakes - at this early stage the
> development of a writing system..mistakes may very well NOT be mistakes,
> just different ways of writing the same thing..sometimes very different
> ways but still the variance of writing would provide data which is
> valuable for anyone studying the evolution of a writing system such as
> Maybe what could be done is that the public SignPuddles remain or become
> truly public, so that all entries are allowed to stay there..BUT then of
> course I understand that the actual editors (with their different reasons
> and targets for using SignWriting) cannot use these the Public SignPuddles
> as they are, but they would take whatever they wish from the public
> SignPuddles to their semi-private puddle (that can be viewed but not
> Hope this makes sense.
>> SignWriting List
>> September 27, 2012
>> Hello Stefan and everyone!
>> Thank you for your message below. I have pasted a Google translation in
> English below�
>> These SignPuddles are growing!
>> Maybe we need separate SignPuddle files for some countries and their
>> languages, so that different purposes can be supported within the same
> sign language?
>> Let's think about what would be best later� Maybe the DELEGS related
> SignPuddle needs to be separate from the general public's German Sign
> Language SignPuddle, that would be for beginners to try to learn to
>> and so forth, and both SignPuddles would be accessible for reading, but
> the DELEGS related SignPuddle would not be open to the general public
>> writing? Just a thought...
>> Thank you everyone, for your remarkable work� It is so exciting to see
>> that is being accomplished...
>> Val ;-)
>> English translation of Stefan's message:
>> Hello Steve, Valerie, Charles and Oscar,
>> There is a simple reason why the characters are gone. I'm
>> the responsible editor of the German SignPuddles and have these entries
> tonight deleted!
>> At least times already great that we can now talk about it. Often I
> delete that is misspelled or twice or three times
>> Entries made by beginners, without ever a response to
>> . experience
>> Often, it is also different ;-)
>> ... I get emails where someone points out that he also
>> Want to learn to write SignWriting. This writer then asks for
>> Feedback, help, support on the first write attempt.
>> What is new is that our German SignPuddle a really great use
>> in Delegs project experienced.
>> With the fantastic Delegseditor we can in a few minutes
>> Creating training materials for teaching German.
>> It does not matter if you LBG - or create documents DGS
>> want to be used by the students then to German or
>> Single sign or want to learn German Sign Language.
>> Overall, such a dictionary then makes more sense if a certain standard /
> Quality assurance is maintained.
>> I try through tireless efforts on for many, many years
>> . reach Meanwhile, I have written far more than 35000 gestures and
> Wheelbarrow full of gestures created written documents for the
>> I want to avoid so that the number of additional search terms
>> Variations mentioned, the creation of a rapid
>> SignWriting documents difficult for my third graders.
>> The characters that I deleted today night were sometimes wrong
>> written, not to exploit some within the German language.
>> So it makes sense that you might explain Oscar under which
>> You bring in your sign Geichtspunkt entries in the German SignPuddle.
>> Take for example the gesture with ID id00008 -
>> You can find this gesture under the search word "no" -
>> Mh - and why not, you might say.
>> If you question a movement parallel to the execution of the hands is
> Floor display outside with appropriate hand shape - and if you
>> Such entries are not exactly the same time for text production but
> require other purposes, it makes sense to the search word entry a
> unusual characteristic letters preceded eg "Xidnicht"
>> Then would the gesture other in this form with my students and
>> Users to sign written documents do not show up when they are in the
> Keyword line write "not" the word.
>> Maybe for your project even the "Puddle staff" would be ideal. So for a
> chance purely private / local database
>> together to support your purpose.
>> 'm Curious what exactly you have chosen as a research object.
>> I just looked at SignPuddle and found that under
>> id numbers were reinstated a few gestures.
>> I lack the time in each case to make the correction work.
>> At the same time I want to make as a responsible editor that
>> as many (smile) entries are displayed correctly.
>> This naturally leads to a conflict ... but as I said, maybe I
>> I still do not understand exactly what is involved in your work ...
>> Until then, all the best
>> Greetings Stefan W�hrmann
>> On Sep 27, 2012, at 9:41 AM, Stefan W�hrmann wrote:
>>> Hallo Steve, Valerie, Charles und Oscar,
>>> Es gibt einen einfachen Grund, warum die Zeichen verschwunden sind. Ich
>>> der verantwortliche Editor des deutschen SignPuddles und habe diese
>>> heute Nacht gel�scht!
>>> Zumindest ist ja schon mal toll, dass wir nun dar�ber reden k�nne. Oft
> l�sche ich n�mlich falsch geschriebene oder doppelt und dreifach
> vorgenommene Eintr�ge von Anf�ngern, ohne jemals wieder eine Reaktion
>>> H�ufig ist es aber auch anders ;-)
>>> ... dann erhalte ich emails, in denen jemand darauf hinweist, dass er
>>> Geb�rdenSchrift schreiben lernen m�chte. Dieser Schreiber bittet dann
>>> R�ckmeldung, Hilfe, Unterst�tzung bei den ersten Schreibversuchen. Neu
> ist nun, dass unser deutsches SignPuddle eine ganz wunderbare
>>> im Delegs-Projekt erlebt.
>>> Mit dem Delegseditor k�nnen wir in wenigen Minuten fantastische
> Schulungsunterlagen f�r den Deutschunterricht erstellen.
>>> Dabei spielt es keine Rolle, ob man LBG - oder DGS Dokumente erstellen
> m�chte, die von den Sch�lern dann genutzt werden, um Deutsch oder
> Einzelgeb�rden oder Deutsche Geb�rdensprache lernen zu wollen.
> Insgesamt macht so ein W�rterbuch dann mehr Sinn, wenn ein gewisser
>>> /Qualit�tssicherung eingehalten wird.
>>> Das versuche ich durch unerm�dlichen Einsatz seit vielen, vielen Jahren
>>> erreichen. Inzwischen habe ich weit mehr als 35000 Geb�rden geschrieben
>>> Schubkarren voll von Geb�rdenSchriftdokumenten f�r den Unterricht
>>> Ich m�chte also verhindern, dass die Suchworte etliche zus�tzliche
> Variationen aufz�hlen, die ein z�giges Erstellen von
>>> Geb�rdenSchriftdokumenten auch f�r meine Drittkl�ssler erschweren. Die
> Zeichen, die ich heute Nacht gel�scht habe, waren zum Teil falsch
> geschrieben, zum Teil im Rahmen des Deutschunterrichts nicht zu
>>> Es macht also Sinn, dass Sie Oscar vielleicht darlegen, unter welchem
> Geichtspunkt Sie Ihre Geb�rdeneintr�ge im Deutschen SignPuddle
>>> Nehmen wir beispielsweise die Geb�rde mit der ID id00008 -
>>> Sie finden diese Geb�rde unter dem Suchwort "nicht" -
>>> Mh - warum auch nicht, k�nnte man meinen.
>>> Wenn es Ihnen darum geht eine Bewegungsausf�hrung der H�nde parallel
>>> Boden nach au�en mit entsprechender Handform darzustellen - und wenn
>>> gleichzeitig exakt solche Eintr�ge nicht f�r Textproduktion sondern f�r
> andere Zwecke ben�tigen, macht es Sinn, dem Suchworteintrag eine
> au�ergew�hnliche Kennbuchstabenfolge voranzustellen z.B. "xidnicht"
> Dann w�rde diese Geb�rde in dieser Form bei meinen Sch�lern und anderen
> Nutzern f�r Geb�rdenSchriftdokumente nicht auftauchen, wenn sie in der
> Suchwortzeile das Wort "nicht" schreiben.
>>> M�glicherweise w�re f�r Ihr Projekt sogar das "Personal Puddle" ideal.
>>> erhalten Sie die Chance eine rein private/lokale Datenbank
>>> zusammenzustellen, um Ihre Zwecke zu unterst�tzen.
>>> Bin neugierig, was genau Sie als Forschungsgegenstand gew�hlt haben.
> Gerade habe ich im SignPuddle nachgeschaut und festgestellt, dass unter
> id-nummern wieder ein paar Geb�rden eingestellt wurden.
>>> Mir fehlt die Zeit in jedem Einzelfall die Korrekturarbeit zu leisten.
> Gleichzeitig m�chte ich als verantwortlicher Editor sicherstellen, dass
> m�glichst viele (smile) Eintr�ge korrekt dargestellt sind.
>>> Das f�hrt nat�rlich zu einem Konflikt,... aber wie gesagt, vielleicht
>>> ich noch nicht genau verstanden, worum es bei Ihrer Arbeit geht ... Bis
> dahin alles Gute
>>> Gr��e Stefan W�hrmann
>>> -----Urspr�ngliche Nachricht-----
>>> Von: SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages
>>> [mailto:SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU] Im Auftrag von Oscar Koller
> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 27. September 2012 16:28
>>> An: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
>>> Betreff: Re: signpuddle entry disappeared?
>>> Hey Steve, and all the list,
>>> thanks for your message.
>>> The signmaker:
>>> http://signbank.org/swis/signmaker.php it seems it is not part of your
> swis-server that you provide on github, but on above mentioned website
>>> see, that it is GPL3 licensed. Can I get it somehow? if there is the
> need for a little coding and adjusting to our system, that is no
>>> When doing our annotations in public signpuddle (annotating our glosses
> to signwriting), we need a way to link back the signpuddle entries to
> our video database. we would use ids to give that information. probably
> that was the reason, why the entries got removed. We denoted the id in
> the "text" field. now we shifted to adding the id to the source field.
> then it is not displayed too big and hopefully doesn't annoy anybody.
> What do you think? Is that ok?
>>> Am 27.09.2012 15:45, schrieb Steve Slevinski:
>>>> Greetings Oscar Koller,
>>>> It looks like your entries were deleted by an editor. I do not know
> why. This shouldn't have happened. It was very inconsiderate. Please
> let me know if it happens again.
>>>> If you send me the export, I can add back the deleted entries. In the
> German dictionary, writing with heads is the current writing style of
> Stefan W�hrmann. Question for Stefan, should we split into
>>>> German puddles? When dealing with spelling examples, dictionary
>>>> and general use: I can see the benefit of having the body of work
>>>> on particular rules of spelling.
>>>> No free ways to edit SignWriting on a local machine. Work in
>>>> 2013 should be an amazing year for SignWriting editors. I hope we can
> maintain compatibility with SignPuddle Online. It is a great example
>>>> great writers from all over the world.
>>>> Valerie's non-profit does offer private puddles where you can set the
> security for who can view, who can add, and who can edit. There is
>>>> the PersonalPuddle, a client side version of SignPuddle Online for Mac
> or Windows. Easy to install on Linux too. The import / export is for
> entire puddles or single entries. These services are available for a
> fee or private agreement.
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