signpuddle entry disappeared?
cwterp at YAHOO.COM
Fri Sep 28 01:55:46 UTC 2012
I know at least two more variations on birthday... I used to collect those, but I've been in one spot now long enough that I am forgettng them! I will add my variations pronto!
I have been touring wikipedia, looking for an article to translate... any suggestions?
> From: Charles Butler <chazzer3332000 at YAHOO.COM>
>To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
>Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 9:46 PM
>Subject: Re: signpuddle entry disappeared?
>I strongly agree with you on multiple variations on signs. That was what brought me to SW in the first place, saving old signs. These are five distinct signs.
>(birthday - regional from Norfolk, VA)
> (birthday - "my birth")
>(California - Adam Frost - Valerie Sutton)Variation by Arturo Ruvalcaba (I'm curious about this one, as the orientation seems impossible)
>(This is the one that I learned back in 1975)
>(Natasha Escalada-Westland - this I have heard is from Philadelphia)
>chazzer3332000 at yahoo.com
>Clear writing moves business forward.
> From: MARIA GALEA <maria.azzopardi at UM.EDU.MT>
>To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
>Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 5:36 PM
>Subject: Re: signpuddle entry disappeared?
>Thank you for your response Charles - helps me understand better the role
>and work carried out by an editor. If you are checking and consulting
>about your choices - then they are NOT just subjective choices, I think
>they are well-informed choices. Also the 'flagging' entries is a very
>good idea. Flagging 'experiment' 'practice' etc etc.
>However the 9 variants of spelling the same sign in ASL
>interesting data about the evolution of an orthography - that's my point.
>It would be a shame not to keep record of it. (Imagine very old texts of
>written English..nowadays these texts are ground for research and shed
>light on how written orthography English evolved).
>> Dear Maria,
>> Right now we are working on a Wikipedia, and I use the ASL Puddle to
>> compare entries. When I see a difference in a sign, I post that sign for
>> discussion to ensure that what I write or read is actually accurate and
>> the clearest spelling. Sometimes there are nine different entries for a
>> given gloss, and I have to choose the one that to me is most accurate.
>> Granted, that is entirely subjective, which your linguists may be
>> disgruntled at, but if, over time, a body of literature grows in
>> Wikipedia, more and more users will be using familiar writings that have
become the "default" user-most-friendly writings.
>> If one sign were written expressive, and another receptive, they are the
>> same sign, they are reverses of each other, but if a sign is written that
>> shows my right hand doing something and using a left arrow to show its
>> movement, that is wrong on its face, factually wrong, not simply
>> stylistically variant. You can't write an EEE sound with an AY, it can't
>> be read. A movement up is not a movement out.
>> Those are the kinds of edits that I have been looking at in LIBRAS. The
>> published LIBRAS dictionary has descriptions as well as pictures, and if
>> the arrows and palm facings don't match the description or the video, then
>> the video and the description win. I'm going through the published
>> dictionary, no more than 4 or 5 signs at a time, to put into the
>> SignPuddle the most accurate
transcription I can. In working with the
>> editors of that published dictionary, they knew that there were a number
>> of errors that would require a teacher certified in the system to note and
>> correct before they put them on line. That's what I am doing, and if I am
>> confused, a take the time to check with three or four native users of
>> LIBRAS before I even put it in the SignPuddle.
>> I don't remove things out of any dictionary without consulting the
>> writers, but if something seems to be an "experiment" I am going to flag
>> them as "experiment" so I can leave them alone, particularly if I don't
>> know the source, don't have any kind of definition, and they look like
>> The SignPuddle is an amazing resource, and I don't want to see it less
>> accessible, but there must be a way to separate out a "real" sign that has
>> been vetted and
compared to one which is just a "stab in the dark". My way
>> is to quote the source, to put my name on it so that people can contact
>> me, and try to put a clear definition of the sign, which sometimes fails
>> to completely convey a translation.
>> i expect the same courtesy from others, don't put something in the
>> SignPuddle as an "experiment" without stating so, and be willing to put
>> your name on it. Think of it as an exercise board, if you must, but I'm a
>> teacher, and part of my job is pointing out things that are "errors" not
>> simply "variations."
>> Charles Butler
>> chazzer3332000 at yahoo.com
>> Clear writing moves business forward.
>> From: MARIA GALEA <maria.azzopardi at UM.EDU.MT>
>> To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
>> Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 4:28 PM
>> Subject: Re: signpuddle entry disappeared?
>> Wow, what has happened here is really interesting, and it's something
>> that's been on my mind for a long time.
>> For starters this is another clear indicatin that signwriting is becoming
>> In the SLLING list there was a discussion about HamNoSys and SignWriting -
>> and sign linguists were criticizing SignPuddle Dictionaries for not being
>> traditional 'dictionaries' in the linguistic sense (1 lexeme: 1 entry)-
>> and they are right - but this does not mean that SignPuddles are not a
resource in themselves. They store written sign language entries not
>> just by linguists but by common folk, and this makes all entries in
>> SignPuddle an invaluable resource - since for a writing system to be truly
>> a writing system it needs to be accepted, and written by a community of
>> language users. If SignPuddle was a linguistic database, it would lose its
>> uniqueness. What makes SignPuddle so strong - paradoxically is what
>> linguists criticize as weak - the way data is entered into Puddle in such
>> a non-academic way : i see this a major strength :)
>> I see the public SignPuddles as editing tools for anyone using SignWriting
>> who wishes to write and store SignWritten entries in a particular
>> However my question now: are the public SignPuddles truly public? To have
>> an editor in a public SignPuddle 'respelling' and deleting entries to
>> indicates that they are not very public. It might be a good time to
>> re-think what the aims and purposes of Public SignPuddles are. I can
>> understand that an editor would have to remove 'mistakes' etc..but the
>> mistakes are his/her interpretation of mistakes - at this early stage the
>> development of a writing system..mistakes may very well NOT be mistakes,
>> just different ways of writing the same thing..sometimes very different
>> ways but still the variance of writing would provide data which is
>> valuable for anyone studying the evolution of a writing system such as
>> Maybe what could be done is that the public SignPuddles remain or become
>> truly public, so that all entries are allowed to stay there..BUT then of
>> course I understand that the actual editors (with their different reasons
>> and targets for using SignWriting) cannot use these
the Public SignPuddles
>> as they are, but they would take whatever they wish from the public
>> SignPuddles to their semi-private puddle (that can be viewed but not
>> Hope this makes sense.
>>> SignWriting List
>>> September 27, 2012
>>> Hello Stefan and everyone!
>>> Thank you for your message below. I have pasted a Google translation in
>> English below�
>>> These SignPuddles are growing!
>>> Maybe we need separate SignPuddle files for some countries and their
>>> languages, so that different purposes can be supported within the same
>> sign language?
>>> Let's think about what would be best later� Maybe the DELEGS related
>> SignPuddle needs to be separate from the general public's German Sign
>> Language SignPuddle,
that would be for beginners to try to learn to
>>> and so forth, and both SignPuddles would be accessible for reading, but
>> the DELEGS related SignPuddle would not be open to the general public
>>> writing? Just a thought...
>>> Thank you everyone, for your remarkable work� It is so exciting to see
>>> that is being accomplished...
>>> Val ;-)
>>> English translation of Stefan's message:
>>> Hello Steve, Valerie, Charles and Oscar,
>>> There is a simple reason why the characters are gone. I'm
>>> the responsible editor of the German SignPuddles and have these entries
>> tonight deleted!
>>> At least times already great that we can now talk about it. Often I
>> delete that is misspelled or twice or three
>>> Entries made by beginners, without ever a response to
>>> . experience
>>> Often, it is also different ;-)
>>> ... I get emails where someone points out that he also
>>> Want to learn to write SignWriting. This writer then asks for
>>> Feedback, help, support on the first write attempt.
>>> What is new is that our German SignPuddle a really great use
>>> in Delegs project experienced.
>>> With the fantastic Delegseditor we can in a few minutes
>>> Creating training materials for teaching German.
>>> It does not matter if you LBG - or create documents DGS
>>> want to be used by the students then to German or
>>> Single sign or want to learn
German Sign Language.
>>> Overall, such a dictionary then makes more sense if a certain standard /
>> Quality assurance is maintained.
>>> I try through tireless efforts on for many, many years
>>> . reach Meanwhile, I have written far more than 35000 gestures and
>> Wheelbarrow full of gestures created written documents for the
>>> I want to avoid so that the number of additional search terms
>>> Variations mentioned, the creation of a rapid
>>> SignWriting documents difficult for my third graders.
>>> The characters that I deleted today night were sometimes wrong
written, not to exploit some within the German language.
>>> So it makes sense that you might explain Oscar under which
>>> You bring in your sign Geichtspunkt entries in the German SignPuddle.
>>> Take for example the gesture with ID id00008 -
>>> You can find this gesture under the search word "no" -
>>> Mh - and why not, you might say.
>>> If you question a movement parallel to the execution of the hands is
>> Floor display outside with appropriate hand shape - and if you
>>> Such entries are not exactly the same time for text production but
>> require other purposes, it makes sense to the search word entry a
>> unusual characteristic letters preceded eg "Xidnicht"
>>> Then would the gesture other in this form with my students and
>>> Users to sign written documents do not show up when they are in the
line write "not" the word.
>>> Maybe for your project even the "Puddle staff" would be ideal. So for a
>> chance purely private / local database
>>> together to support your purpose.
>>> 'm Curious what exactly you have chosen as a research object.
>>> I just looked at SignPuddle and found that under
>>> id numbers were reinstated a few gestures.
>>> I lack the time in each case to make the correction work.
>>> At the same time I want to make as a responsible editor that
>>> as many (smile) entries are displayed correctly.
>>> This naturally leads to a conflict ... but as I said, maybe I
>>> I still do not understand exactly what is involved in your work ...
>>> Until then, all the best
>>> Greetings Stefan W�hrmann
>>> On Sep 27, 2012, at 9:41 AM, Stefan W�hrmann wrote:
>>>> Hallo Steve, Valerie, Charles und Oscar,
>>>> Es gibt einen einfachen Grund, warum die Zeichen verschwunden sind. Ich
>>>> der verantwortliche Editor des deutschen SignPuddles und habe diese
>>>> heute Nacht gel�scht!
>>>> Zumindest ist ja schon mal toll, dass wir nun dar�ber reden k�nne. Oft
>> l�sche ich n�mlich falsch geschriebene oder doppelt und dreifach
>> vorgenommene Eintr�ge von Anf�ngern, ohne jemals wieder eine Reaktion
>>>> H�ufig ist es aber auch anders ;-)
>>>> ... dann erhalte ich emails, in denen jemand darauf hinweist, dass er
>>>> Geb�rdenSchrift schreiben lernen m�chte. Dieser Schreiber bittet dann
Hilfe, Unterst�tzung bei den ersten Schreibversuchen. Neu
>> ist nun, dass unser deutsches SignPuddle eine ganz wunderbare
>>>> im Delegs-Projekt erlebt.
>>>> Mit dem Delegseditor k�nnen wir in wenigen Minuten fantastische
>> Schulungsunterlagen f�r den Deutschunterricht erstellen.
>>>> Dabei spielt es keine Rolle, ob man LBG - oder DGS Dokumente erstellen
>> m�chte, die von den Sch�lern dann genutzt werden, um Deutsch oder
>> Einzelgeb�rden oder Deutsche Geb�rdensprache lernen zu wollen.
>> Insgesamt macht so ein W�rterbuch dann mehr Sinn, wenn ein gewisser
>>>> /Qualit�tssicherung eingehalten wird.
>>>> Das versuche ich durch unerm�dlichen Einsatz seit vielen, vielen Jahren
>>>> erreichen. Inzwischen habe ich weit mehr als 35000 Geb�rden geschrieben
>>>> Schubkarren voll von Geb�rdenSchriftdokumenten f�r den Unterricht
>>>> Ich m�chte also verhindern, dass die Suchworte etliche zus�tzliche
>> Variationen aufz�hlen, die ein z�giges Erstellen von
>>>> Geb�rdenSchriftdokumenten auch f�r meine Drittkl�ssler erschweren. Die
>> Zeichen, die ich heute Nacht gel�scht habe, waren zum Teil falsch
>> geschrieben, zum Teil im Rahmen des Deutschunterrichts nicht zu
>>>> Es macht also Sinn, dass Sie Oscar vielleicht darlegen, unter welchem
>> Geichtspunkt Sie Ihre Geb�rdeneintr�ge im Deutschen
>>>> Nehmen wir beispielsweise die Geb�rde mit der ID id00008 -
>>>> Sie finden diese Geb�rde unter dem Suchwort "nicht" -
>>>> Mh - warum auch nicht, k�nnte man meinen.
>>>> Wenn es Ihnen darum geht eine Bewegungsausf�hrung der H�nde parallel
>>>> Boden nach au�en mit entsprechender Handform darzustellen - und wenn
>>>> gleichzeitig exakt solche Eintr�ge nicht f�r Textproduktion sondern f�r
>> andere Zwecke ben�tigen, macht es Sinn, dem Suchworteintrag eine
>> au�ergew�hnliche Kennbuchstabenfolge voranzustellen z.B. "xidnicht"
>> Dann w�rde diese Geb�rde in dieser Form bei meinen Sch�lern und anderen
>> Nutzern f�r Geb�rdenSchriftdokumente nicht auftauchen, wenn sie in der
>> Suchwortzeile das Wort "nicht" schreiben.
>>>> M�glicherweise w�re f�r
Ihr Projekt sogar das "Personal Puddle" ideal.
>>>> erhalten Sie die Chance eine rein private/lokale Datenbank
>>>> zusammenzustellen, um Ihre Zwecke zu unterst�tzen.
>>>> Bin neugierig, was genau Sie als Forschungsgegenstand gew�hlt haben.
>> Gerade habe ich im SignPuddle nachgeschaut und festgestellt, dass unter
>> id-nummern wieder ein paar Geb�rden eingestellt wurden.
>>>> Mir fehlt die Zeit in jedem Einzelfall die Korrekturarbeit zu leisten.
>> Gleichzeitig m�chte ich als verantwortlicher Editor sicherstellen, dass
>> m�glichst viele (smile) Eintr�ge korrekt dargestellt sind.
>>>> Das f�hrt nat�rlich zu einem Konflikt,... aber wie gesagt, vielleicht
>>>> ich noch nicht genau verstanden, worum es bei Ihrer Arbeit geht ... Bis
>> dahin alles Gute
>>>> Gr��e Stefan W�hrmann
>>>> Von: SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages
>>>> [mailto:SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU] Im Auftrag von Oscar Koller
>> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 27. September 2012 16:28
>>>> An: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
>>>> Betreff: Re: signpuddle entry disappeared?
>>>> Hey Steve, and all the list,
>>>> thanks for your message.
>>>> The signmaker:
>>>> http://signbank.org/swis/signmaker.php it seems it is not part of your
>> swis-server that you provide on github, but on above mentioned website
>>>> see, that it is
GPL3 licensed. Can I get it somehow? if there is the
>> need for a little coding and adjusting to our system, that is no
>>>> When doing our annotations in public signpuddle (annotating our glosses
>> to signwriting), we need a way to link back the signpuddle entries to
>> our video database. we would use ids to give that information. probably
>> that was the reason, why the entries got removed. We denoted the id in
>> the "text" field. now we shifted to adding the id to the source field.
>> then it is not displayed too big and hopefully doesn't annoy anybody.
>> What do you think? Is that ok?
>>>> Am 27.09.2012 15:45, schrieb Steve Slevinski:
>>>>> Greetings Oscar Koller,
>>>>> It looks like your entries were deleted by an editor. I do not know
>> why. This shouldn't have happened.
It was very inconsiderate. Please
>> let me know if it happens again.
>>>>> If you send me the export, I can add back the deleted entries. In the
>> German dictionary, writing with heads is the current writing style of
>> Stefan W�hrmann. Question for Stefan, should we split into
>>>>> German puddles? When dealing with spelling examples, dictionary
>>>>> and general use: I can see the benefit of having the body of work
>>>>> on particular rules of spelling.
>>>>> No free ways to edit SignWriting on a local machine. Work in
>>>>> 2013 should be an amazing year for SignWriting editors. I hope we can
>> maintain compatibility with SignPuddle Online. It is a great example
>>>>> great writers from all over the world.
Valerie's non-profit does offer private puddles where you can set the
>> security for who can view, who can add, and who can edit. There is
>>>>> the PersonalPuddle, a client side version of SignPuddle Online for Mac
>> or Windows. Easy to install on Linux too. The import / export is for
>> entire puddles or single entries. These services are available for a
>> fee or private agreement.
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