AW: Writing Non Manual Signals

Sun Apr 14 22:59:58 UTC 2013

Hi Ingvild, 

if you are interested in the way I would write your bam 

All best 

Stefan

  _____  

Von: SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages
[mailto:SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU] Im Auftrag von Ingvild Roald
Gesendet: Montag, 15. April 2013 00:00
An: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
Betreff: Re: Writing Non Manual Signals

Hello Adam and all,

I know there are 'bite' symbols (#), clattering-of-teeth and
wagging-of-tounge symbols, and moving of chin-symbols. I cannot find any
symbols for simply opening or closin of mouth

<http://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/glyphogram.php?font=png1&size=1&bound
=t&ksw=M104x74S36400n103xn69S36410n100xn19S36420n101x39S35f10n15xn71S35f20n1
6xn20S3680062xn73S3690059xn18> 

As for the ide of only one mouth, do you think along these lines? Are these
arrows the ones you would suggest for the opening/closing? 

<http://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/glyphogram.php?font=png1&size=1&bound
=t&ksw=M32x85S33b00n28xn17S10040n7x36S2f90020x49S23100n11x68S2f73020x27S15a4
8n25x38S3681011x0S3681421x5> 

Ingvild 

  _____  

Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 13:47:19 -0700
From: icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM
Subject: Re: Writing Non Manual Signals
To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU

There are movement symbols for the mouth in the ISWA. I always have to do
some searching for them because they are only visible on the lowest levels,
but I know they are there because I remember doing them for the SVGs. *grin*

In any case, I don't think that the movement symbols are needed because you
have the positions. (I personally like the three over the two because it
feels like there should be three mouthing positions.) I also don't think you
need to have the double fast symbol for the mouth and hands. I think one is
enough. 

There is an idea, however, to use only one mouth and have the up-down
movement symbol to show the opening and closing. 

Adam

On Apr 14, 2013, at 1:24 PM, "Ingvild Roald" <iroald at HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:

Hi Val and all,

I used the small arrowheads for opening and closing, even if I know that
they are ment for knucles. Full double stemmed arrows did not seem to fit.
Those used here are for movement of chin:

<http://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/glyphogram.php?font=png1&size=1&bound
=t&ksw=M39x99S2f73024x72S34c00n23xn30S2ff10n23x1S2f73027xn4S35310n11x17S15a4
8n20x50S10040n2x48S23100n6x80S2f90024x94S3681016xn11S3681416x9> 

Actually, I do not know if we do have a convention for writing opening or
closing of the mouth - I know we do have for moving the lips in or out. If
we do not have such a convention, I would like to propose that we use the
same symbols as we use for the opening/ closing of the knucles, as I did in
this writing:

<http://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/glyphogram.php?text=AS10040S23100S2f7
30S2f900S15a48S34c00S22200S22204S35310S2ff10S2f730M41x99S2220424x20S2220025x
n12S2ff10n18x1S2f73024xn3S35310n6x17S15a48n15x50S100403x48S23100n1x80S2f9002
9x94S2f73029x72S34c00n18xn30&pad=10&name=BAM> 

The movement of the mouth, very fast opening-closing, goes in step with the
movement of the rigt hand - very fast down-up. 

Is the writng with two mouth symbols more clear than the writng with three
mouth symbols?

<http://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/glyphogram.php?text=AS10040S23100S2f7
30S2f900S15a48S33b00S22200S2ff10S34c10S22204S2ff10S35310S2f730M42x109S33b00n
19xn41S2ff10n19xn11S2ff10n17x12S34c10n3x1S35310n5x28S15a48n14x61S100504x59S2
31000x91S2f90030x104S2f73030x83S2f73026xn2S2220022xn17S2220425x29&pad=10&nam
e=BAM!!!> 

Ingvild 

  _____  

Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 11:13:55 -0700
From: signwriting at MAC.COM
Subject: Re: Writing Non Manual Signals
To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU

SignWriting List

April 14, 2013

Hi Ingvild -

Thank you for trying two Mouth Positions rather than three. I prefer the two
Mouth Positions, if I have understood it correctly, that there are two
arrows for the hand movement 
one going down and then up again. When I read
this, I assume that the first open Mouth Position goes with the first
movement of the hand, and the second Mouth Position happens on the second
movement of the hand - this way I know what is happening during the
movement
so this works for me as a reader - Does this seem correct to you?

I have another question
Near the Mouth Positions you have a Very-Fast symbol
- the Double Fast Symbol - which is clear to me - but what do the little
symbols mean below and above the Double Fast symbol? The slender little
arrowheads that point up and down? Are they necessary and what do they
represent related to Mouth Positions?

Val ;-)

-----

On Apr 14, 2013, at 1:58 AM, Ingvild Roald <iroald at HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:

Trying with just two mouth symbols

<http://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/glyphogram.php?font=png1&size=1&bound
=t&ksw=AS10040S23100S2f730S2f900S15a48S34c00S22200S22204S35310S2ff10S2f730M4
1x99S2220424x20S2220025xn12S2ff10n18x1S2f73024xn3S35310n6x17S15a48n15x50S100
403x48S23100n1x80S2f90029x94S2f73029x72S34c00n18xn30> 

Of course, the convention states 'opening to written configuration, closing
to written configuration', so the starting configuration is not strictly
necessary
Personally, I do not think this is as clear - but less work.

Ingvild 

  _____  

Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 19:42:50 -0700
From: signwriting at MAC.COM
Subject: Re: Writing Non Manual Signals
To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU

SignWriting List

April 13, 2013

I like it too, Ingvild - and I like the way you and Adam are stacking the
heads using the head with the open top to make the stack look like one on
top of the other -

I do have one question - why the need for three mouth symbols? could you
write the same mouth movement with  two symbols instead of three?

It is fine - just curious if the straight mouth is necessary

Val ;-)

-----

On Apr 13, 2013, at 6:14 PM, Charles Butler <chazzer3332000 at YAHOO.COM>
wrote:

I like it. It will be a challenge to teach. I had a task including head nods
to indicate sentence breaks in one of the articles I had transcribed.

Charles Butler
chazzer3332000 at yahoo.com
240-764-5748
Clear writing moves business forward.

--- On Sat, 4/13/13, Ingvild Roald <iroald at HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:

From: Ingvild Roald <iroald at HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Writing Non Manual Signals
To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
Date: Saturday, April 13, 2013, 6:28 PM

Hi all,

I liked the way to stack face circles - now I have retried to write a sign
that I did try a while ago to get response to.

<http://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/glyphogram.php?font=png1&size=1&bound
=t&ksw=AS10040S23100S2f730S2f900S15a48S33b00S22200S2ff10S34c10S22204S2ff10S3
5310S2f730M42x109S33b00n19xn41S2ff10n19xn11S2ff10n17x12S34c10n3x1S35310n5x28
S15a48n14x61S100404x59S231000x91S2f90030x104S2f73030x83S2f73026xn2S2220022xn
17S2220425x29> 

This sign is done very fast, and the right hand has some force in the
movement. The sign  means something like 'imediately', 'speedily', 'at
once', 'suddenly', 'NOW!'.

I wonder if this is readable?

Ingvild 

  _____  

Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 12:37:12 -0700
From: signwriting at MAC.COM
Subject: Re: Writing Non Manual Signals
To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU

SignWriting List

April 13, 2013

Hi Natasha and Adam and Stefan and all

I like all the methods shown - and of course your work with Mouth Movements,
Stefan is truly wonderful 

Regarding writing down in vertical columns, I agree that the feeling of the
changing mouth movements feels like it should be written down, since the
reading of the entire document is going down
and likewise, when reading a
document from left to right, writing the changing facial expressions from
left to right makes sense for the reading direction

I like Natasha's writing of the sign for FINISH and Adam's too
it is true
that when we use the Head symbol with the top off the top of the head, it
gives us a way to place one face over the other in an interesting stack - to
find that symbol, go to the Heads, and under the first group in Heads is a
Head Symbol that does not have the top on, so we can stack more facial
features into one Head symbol
Adam used that to superimpose one head on the
other in his example below

And all the Facial Expressions are listed on this page as Adam said:

http://www.signbank.org/iswa/cat_4.html

 - just click on the Group name and it will list all the facial expression
and head symbols with names and ID numbers...

Now, below I have placed an idea...this is only an experiment - I have never
shared this with anyone before, but what about the idea of stacking mouth
symbols within one head symbol? It may look ridiculous and I will not mind
if you tell me so! (smile)
take a look at this idea attached
the Head Circle
without the top on it, would be a requirement so we know we are stacking
Facial features
we would know that those are two Mouth Positions stacked
within one Head Circle, because the top of the Head circle is not there -
this would only work for two positions or maybe three at the most -

It kind of looks silly, but fun to experiment with new ideas - it is a way
to consolidate two Facial Circles into one - what do you think?

Val ;-)

-------

On Apr 13, 2013, at 11:50 AM, Adam Frost <icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM> wrote:

The best page that we have at the moment is http://www.signbank.org/iswa/.
This is a page of all of the symbols in the ISWA broken up into categories,
groups, and then individual symbols. There is only a short description of
each symbol. It isn't the best, but it is thorough.

Now that you mentioned about the mouth movements, I looked at it more
closely. I think you want to have the finishing mouth to be protruded open
mouth rather than a slightly tighter open mouth, which makes the wrinkles
that the lines around represent. In that case, I think the final mouth
should be this:

  <http://cid:> 

I did a little playing with overlapping the heads and noticed that the
overlapping couldn't occur very well without covering up the above mouthing
symbol. Then I remembered that there were "topless" head circles, so I
decided to try it out and see what happens. What do you all think about
this?

  <http://cid:> 

Adam

On Apr 12, 2013, at 3:42 AM, Natasha Escalada-Westland wrote:

Hi Everyone,

I (think) I attached a writing of the sign "finish" with vertical heads.  I
like the 
simplicity of showing the initial handshape with movement only.  What do you

think?

Also, is there a lesson page that describes or shows pictures of all the
face and 
mouth symbols available in the SignMaker on SignPuddle?  I'm not sure what
some 
of the symbols represent.  There is an older, online set of written lessons
I have 
found, but it doesn't include everything available in the SignMaker
pallette.

Thanks!

Natasha Escalada-Westland

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