AW: AW: discussion: design of bent fingers

Fri Feb 15 00:26:17 UTC 2013

Hi Charles, 

I loved to read your message and I can understand perfectly your opinion. 

Thanks a lot for your feedback!

Stefan 

  _____  

Von: SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages
[mailto:SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU] Im Auftrag von Charles Butler
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 14. Februar 2013 13:14
An: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
Betreff: Re: AW: discussion: design of bent fingers

I agree with both you and Valerie. As a handwriting system, not locked into
a space requirement of a computer system working with other design
requirements, the curve is clear and beautiful.

As a font requirement, where all the elements of design must fit within
designed parameters so that all parts fit together, your curved fingers
would have to be shorter to fit within the frame of the hands for the two
fingers. Valerie is correct on that point.

What happens then is that were you to design a font, then the entire font
will need to be viewed as a piece. Will ALL of the design elements, not just
one hand, fit within a design framework so that if you, for example, put a
flat open 5 hand with the curves of motion around it that it doesn't
conflict in size and shape. You can't change one element, without looking at
how that element effects all other places.

If you design a font, then all points of the font have to work together,
essentially a complete redesign. Just like an italic font and a square font
can work together. 

But if you go to a different font altogether, then the F of Lucida Console
in a LARGER size can't possibly be expected to match a larger font that is
curved. It's a different style for a different purpose.  

Charles Butler
chazzer3332000 at yahoo.com
240-764-5748
Clear writing moves business forward.

--- On Wed, 2/13/13, Stefan Wöhrmann <stefanwoehrmann at GEBAERDENSCHRIFT.DE>
wrote:

From: Stefan Wöhrmann <stefanwoehrmann at GEBAERDENSCHRIFT.DE>
Subject: AW: discussion: design of bent fingers
To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
Date: Wednesday, February 13, 2013, 6:40 PM

Hi Charles, Valerie and sw-list members, 

Perhaps this sign can explain better what is on my mind  - the two hands
move inwards  startposition U-hand a little bit curved  in the endposition
the two fingers are really bent as much as possible  

I know and I understand that the symbol with the bent square fingers has
been accepted and is established in order to indicate this clearly. 

Our Font- design team would love to write this instead with the curved lines
as you can see on the left... 

Would this be correct?  Is there inany way  a kind of violation of
principles? Is this a matter of artwork? 

All best Stefan 

  _____  

Von: SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages
[mailto:SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU] Im Auftrag von Stefan Wöhrmann
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 14. Februar 2013 00:24
An: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
Betreff: AW: discussion: design of bent fingers

Hi Charles, Valerie... 

please let me explain again  I am not discussing different signs.  I am not
discussing that it is possible to bent the fingers just a little bit or
extremely. I would like to discuss 

the possibility to write the  bent index as a bent sqare finger or as a half
circle curve.  See the sign below. Looking at the left or right hand there
should not be any difference  well perhaps except for the feeling  smile

If you bent your fingers  you can write this as bent square fingers.   (We
find this for handshapes with one, two or three fingers) We do not find this
for 4 or 5 fingers  

Why? 

Well the fingers bent the same way but the design of that given handshape
shows smooth lines instead of bent square fingers 

Is this because of a design  problem with old software or is there an idea
behind this concept. 

I fully agree with your last statement     "beautiful" artwork must make
sure that you don't lose articulation.    That is the reason that I ask for
your opinion smile! 

Hi Valerie  what do you think ? 

All best

Stefan 

  _____  

Von: SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages
[mailto:SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU] Im Auftrag von Charles Butler
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 13. Februar 2013 23:12
An: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
Betreff: Re: discussion: design of bent fingers

For me there is an essential difference between a bent finger and a smoothed
finger when you miss the point that two joints are bent, like the difference
between "depend" where the joints smoothly go into a curve, and "friend"
where they clearly link as bent square fingers.
<http://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/glyphogram.php?text=AS10a11S10a19S206
00M24x20S10a11n4xn6S10a19n23xn6S20600n11xn20&pad=10&name=McDonald-%27s>
(McDonald's two CURVES) or
<http://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/glyphogram.php?ksw=M64x23S10a113xn3S1
0a19n30xn3S2660634x3S26612n64x3S218005xn15S21800n22xn15S2fb00n8xn24> (etc.)
and something with clearly the first and second joints clearly squared. 

<http://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/glyphogram.php?text=AS10611S20500S36d
00S22f03S10612S10616S20800S2f900M57x44S36d00n21xn37S2050023xn43S1061134xn43S
22f0316xn22S10616n15x2S106123x12S2f900n6x39S20800n5x26&pad=10&name=Mexican>
This is the sign for Mexican from a sarape (a blanket used as a wrap). It
would not be correct to make the sign without an actual hooked finger as a
"minimal pair", so, for me, "beautiful" artwork must make sure that you
don't lose articulation. 

Charles Butler
chazzer3332000 at yahoo.com
240-764-5748
Clear writing moves business forward.

--- On Wed, 2/13/13, Stefan Wöhrmann <stefanwoehrmann at GOOGLEMAIL.COM> wrote:

From: Stefan Wöhrmann <stefanwoehrmann at GOOGLEMAIL.COM>
Subject: discussion: design of bent fingers
To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
Date: Wednesday, February 13, 2013, 4:58 PM

Hi Valerie and sw-friends, 

I would like to ask for your comments about the following issue.

Within our delegs-projekt a group of specialized design-students have a
second look at the various SW-symbols. From their point of view there are
options to improve the design of some symbols in order to make the whole
SW-symbol-font look more modern or nice

While preparing some studies of the ongoing process they showed up with the
question whether the bent index can be written with smooth curves as well
showing the index finger bent as you designed it as a finger with sharp
edges. 

I played around with the signmaker to create a little demo of what I am
talking about.  ;-)) 

Interesting question  so I looked carefully at the Symbolset and discovered
that the claw hand  is designed exactly this way  (rounded lines for the
fingers) 

On the other hand the hands with only one, two or at least three fingers
show this other design with sharp 90° angles. 

Can you tell us: Is this a matter of history? Coming from the old
DOS-SW-Software  we could not write nice circles either. You know this
old symbol just indicating that you are supposed to see a circle-movement
shown as some dots in a circle. 

What about this difference between a clawhand with curves or the same hand
written with edges? 

Is there any meaningful difference in the background that you would want us
to know?   Or is this a matter of artwork? ... or  something else? 

Would it be any difference if we would write all these bent fingers with
soft rounded lines? 

Thank you very much for your attention. 

All best 

Stefan 

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