[Sw-l] Presentation 42

Thu Jul 23 23:57:12 UTC 2015

Thank you for the clarification. I didn't think you were being exclusive at
all. Newcomers like me are from the "out-group" -- meaning I am learning
the ropes and vocabulary of the Signwriting community on the way to
becoming as part of the "in-group." Now I understand the discussion was in
regards to the presentation. It is a bit confusing but that is normal when
someone new is learning how things go. (Some people lurk, I learn hands-on,
mistakes and all! :) )

I will try out the software again when back at my computer. Seems there are
different versions with different names and purposes which is hard to keep
track of. Will do my best. Thank you!

Adrean

On Thursday, July 23, 2015, Valerie Sutton <signwriting at mac.com> wrote:

> SignWriting List
> July 23, 2015
>
> Hello Adrean -
>
> There are no “out-groups” in my world…writing sign languages is a
> wonderful tool and should be open to all -
>
> Yes, there are many ways to write sign languages, and certainly all
> methods have their good points and no one is trying to deny anyone anything
> - we are working hard to encourage the reading and writing of sign
> languages around the world -
>
> In our case, we happen to work with the SignWriting script, but of course
> Dr. Stokoe and others like yourself, have developed excellent systems too -
> The world continues and there is room enough for everyone and every new
> idea -
>
> Yes, within the SignWriting script, we have discussed writing symbols
> sequentially, one after the other, like the Latin or Roman alphabet places
> symbols one after the other in a string, and obviously when writing
> fingerspelling using SignWriting symbols, because the fingerspelling is
> showing a spoken language spelling, we oftentimes type fingerspelling from
> left to right sequentially…but for writing signs that are not
> fingerspelling, the signs relating to the head, face, body  - showing the
> hand above the head when it really is above the head in real signing - that
> seemed to work best for easy reading to write the hand symbol above the
> head - and so we stack our symbols to relate to the human body  - if my
> hand is below the head, I write it below…if the hand is to the side of the
> head, we write it to the side of the head and so forth…so that is our
> choice within our system - We have discussed this for years, and we have
> chosen to develop software to make this possible,
>  and that is one of the unique characteristics of SignWriting…
>
> Of course, this has given many software developers big large projects
> trying to program it - and to all the SignWriting programmers in the world
> - I say a big thank you!
>
> Regarding using the SignWriting software, like me…I am not a software
> developer…I enjoy writing with the programs that are provided by so many
> fine programmers today…For example, have you tried SignPuddle Online? Or
> maybe even DELEGS?
>
> Here is the link for the ASL DELEGS: Just start typing an English gloss to
> access signs…you may have to wait for it to load...
>
> Delegs for ASL
> http://www.delegs.com/delegseditor/?locale=en&signlocale=asl
>
> Regarding Presentation 42, by Dr. Mohamed Abushaira - that is a totally
> different issue. Dr Abushaira has used SignWriting in schools in Jordan and
> Saudi Arabia, but he would like to hope that maybe more than one school or
> one classroom would be interested in reading and writing signs, but
> projects get started in the schools, and they continue for around 5 years
> and the students and the teachers love writing signs, and then the teachers
> retire or the administration from the school changes and the project stops
> and writing signs stops as well - this is a pattern we have experienced in
> the US too - so it is not unique to other countries - supporting the
> writing of sign languages in the school systems is very hard because there
> are many people who do not know ASL well teaching in the schools and
> parents are worried their children will not learn English - Dr. AbuShaira’s
> excellent Presentation 42 in the SignWriting Symposium asked teachers to
> take a survey on their feelings spe
>  cifically about the SignWriting Script, and it was very positive, but
> Stefan was trying to point out that the survey did not ask people who had
> never heard of it, or who had mis-impressions about it - that the survey
> needed to have a broader audience - and I believe that Dr. AbuShaira would
> be the first to agree - we need to do more surveys and studies on what is
> needed - Thank you Dr. AbuShaira!
>
> Val ;-)
>
> -----------
>
>
>
> > On Jul 23, 2015, at 9:46 AM, Adrean Clark <adreanaline at gmail.com
> <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >
> > Thank you for your message too, Valerie. It's always good to read from
> you!
> >
> > To clarify what I meant by walls -- it can range from outright
> > hostility to benign neglect. Fortunately I'm not getting any animosity
> > from Signwriting circles but it has happened with other methods to
> > extreme effect. It's normal for humans to band together (Mac vs. PC
> > anyone?) but that also means that over time the "in-group" develops
> > terminology and systems that decreases access to the "out-group."
> >
> > One small example, the Signwriting software is way over my head at
> > this point but I can see the potential for it to fork so that it can
> > be a platform to support planar* written ASL in general. That's just
> > one thought. I'm not a "rocket surgeon" when it comes to programming
> > but surely that is something worth thinking about?
> >
> > (*Linear vs. planar refers to the main categories of writing SL.
> > Linear is a la Stokoe where the elements of a signed word are placed
> > next to each other like English letters. Planar is what Signwriting
> > does by condensing 3D language into a 2D space.)
> >
> > One more thing -- I know that a lot of discussion has happened over
> > the last 40 years and I'm a newcomer here. My apologies if my comments
> > rehash something that the group has already decided upon. There's a
> > lot I need to learn from you all! :)
> >
> > ‿·⪦˒˒
> >
> > *****
> > Adrean Clark
> >
> > Author and Artist
> >
> > http://www.adreanclark.com
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 11:15 AM, Valerie Sutton <signwriting at mac.com
> <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >> SignWriting List
> >> July 23, 2015
> >>
> >> Hello Adrean!
> >> Thank you for this great message - it very meaningful and I
> wholeheartedly
> >> agree with you!
> >>
> >> I look forward to answering in more detail next week.
> >>
> >> There are no walls or barriers. Everything in SignWriting is 100 per
> cent
> >> free - no cost, and no restrictions. Everyone is free to use the system
> as
> >> they wish…and of course there are other systems, such as ASLwrite,
> which is
> >> very beautiful. Thank you for ASLwrite!
> >>
> >> All writing systems for sign languages should be supported and
> encouraged
> >> because writing sign languages is beneficial for the world -
> >>
> >> So right now, we are in an intermission between our presentations. Day
> 3 of
> >> the SignWriting Symposium is being presented right now. I apologize
> that we
> >> do not have ASL interpreting this year. Last year, Adam Frost
> interpreted
> >> all of the English-speaking sessions into ASL, in the 2014 Symposium,
> but
> >> this year we decided to record the presentation LIVE and then add the
> >> interpretation later - Because the videos will be up on the web for
> >> generations to come.
> >>
> >> I cannot tell you how much I want to add different language
> interpretations
> >> of the presentations - not only for ASL but to add Portuguese Sign
> Language
> >> and Brazilian Sign Language and Arabic Sign Language interpreters, and
> to
> >> also add captions in the spoken languages of these countries, because we
> >> need real communication to discuss writing sign languages - this year
> there
> >> are 8 countries presenting, and last year we had 12 countries, and
> because
> >> of lack of funds I have not been able to do all the 32 hours of video
> from
> >> last year……but we will definitely do it.
> >>
> >> So we have a lot of software development around the world and the next
> two
> >> presentations today is about software development - one new program is
> >> ongoing in Brazil…that is Session 2 coming up at the half hour…and then
> >> Steve Slevinski, the developer of SignPuddle Online, will be presenting
> his
> >> new work, called SignMaker 2015.
> >>
> >> I hope everyone can watch:
> >>
> >> Watch on Google Hangouts:
> >> http://www.signwriting.org/symposium/2015/Google_Hangouts.html#Day3
> >>
> >> Watch on YouTube
> >> http://www.signwriting.org/symposium/2015/Live_Streaming.html#Day3
> >>
> >> We will talk more, Adrean - and thank you for writing!
> >>
> >> Val ;-)
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Jul 23, 2015, at 8:39 AM, Adrean Clark <adreanaline at GMAIL.COM
> <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >>
> >> This email has been on my mind for the last couple of days. What I'm
> about
> >> to write may be heresy but please bear with me. :)
> >>
> >> "Well as long as we ask people and teachers who already got the chance
> to
> >> overcome their prejudice..."
> >>
> >> There's two different kinds of prejudice -- the first is against written
> >> sign language in general, and the second is against a certain method or
> >> several methods of writing. It's important to recognize the difference
> >> because they each require a unique response.
> >>
> >> If someone is against writing SL in general, then we can demonstrate how
> >> it's possible. However, that person may not always respond to the method
> >> that we choose to demonstrate with. It would be like using a hammer to
> drive
> >> in a screw -- which could work but leaves the wrong impression on the
> >> listener.
> >>
> >> Which brings me to the next comment:
> >>
> >> "Would be soooo tremendously important to find out whether there is any
> >> chance to reach out to people who do ot see any sense, desire ..to put
> any
> >> effort in learning to become familiar with SignWriting. .."
> >>
> >> I was one of those people who had no desire to put in the effort to
> learn
> >> Signwriting. My first memorable experience with Signwriting was back in
> my
> >> Gallaudet days. Someone gave me a publication that had a block of
> >> Signwriting text in it. I remember being excited about the possibility
> of
> >> writing in ASL but my excitement was immediately tempered with the
> >> inaccessibility of the text. This was back around 1997 so the
> information
> >> wasn't easily obtainable.
> >>
> >> Many years later, I came across the Signwriting website and the opposite
> >> happened. It was information overload. My eyes (sensibilities) had also
> >> changed with the intervening years. I'm a graphic designer/illustrator
> by
> >> trade -- in a nutshell my job is to take complex concepts and turn them
> into
> >> appealing and accessible images. Signwriting's shapes to me are too
> rough
> >> for easy reading. It's not an enjoyable experience, so I gave up at that
> >> point.
> >>
> >> However, I didn't give up on written SL in general. This is because of
> my
> >> comics work. It drove me nuts that other artists could write comics in
> their
> >> native language and I couldn't. ASLwrite gave me the ability to quickly
> >> create full ASL dialogue in 2D space. In a roundabout way it eventually
> >> brought me back to Signwriting, not as my chosen method for expression
> but
> >> as one that I could finally grasp and learn from.
> >>
> >> "How about if students in ASL – instruction courses for hearing as well
> as
> >> parents of deaf students would simply ask the teacher/instructor to
> offer
> >> reasonable materials written in SignWriting. SignWriting competence
> should
> >> become a subject in education for coming teachers for deaf students and
> for
> >> SignLanguage instructors... interpreters..."
> >>
> >> This is where I went hmm... It's good that we champion the methods that
> we
> >> like, but not at the expense of others. This is probably already an
> >> unwritten understanding. The reason why I mention this is because I
> know I
> >> would not be able to handle long-term reading in Signwriting materials
> >> without the ability to use a font for easier reading. (Perhaps even
> >> Signwriting with an ASLwrite font!) I wouldn't feel comfortable if my
> >> instructor required the text even though I would probably do the same!
> Human
> >> nature, that. :)
> >>
> >> Now back to my main point about the two different types of prejudice.
> >> Perhaps the first step to dismantling the general resistance to written
> SL
> >> is to construct a framework, whether physical or mental, where the
> evidence
> >> for a written SL is clear. Then within that framework the second step
> would
> >> be to provide access to several written SL to see which particular one
> best
> >> fits the individual or group. Not everyone responds to a certain method,
> >> however, once one method is learned it can benefit another. It's when
> walls
> >> are constructed around methods that problems arise.
> >>
> >> In closing, Stephen's comments opened up the question on why people are
> >> resistant to Signwriting. I hope my brief story helps a bit. It's been
> >> inspiring to see the body of work and the community here. I have a lot
> of
> >> respect for that.
> >>
> >> What do you all think? I look forward to your thoughts --
> >>
> >> ‿·⪦˒˒
> >>
> >> *****
> >> Adrean Clark
> >>
> >> Author and Artist
> >>
> >> http://www.adreanclark.com
> >>
> >> On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 12:16 PM, Stefan Woehrmann
> >> <stefanwoehrmann at gebaerdenschrift.de <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hi Valerie and friends,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I am following the presentation 42..
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Well as long as we ask people and teachers who already got the chance
> to
> >>> overcome their prejudice and who got the chance to feel happy about
> their
> >>> own positive experience while learning and teaching with support of
> >>> SignWriting materials ... we should not be surprised to get  a positive
> >>> feedback.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Would be soooo tremendously important to find out whether there is any
> >>> chance to reach out to people who do ot see any sense, desire ..to put
> any
> >>> effort in learning to become familiar with SignWriting. ..
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> How about if  students in ASL – instruction courses for hearing as
> well as
> >>> parents of deaf students would simply ask the teacher/instructor  to
> offer
> >>> reasonable materials written in SignWriting. SignWriting competence
> should
> >>> become a subject in education for coming teachers for deaf students
> and for
> >>> SignLanguage instructors... interpreters...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> All Best
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Stefan
> >>
> >> ________________________________________________
> >>
> >> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
> >>
> >> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org
> <javascript:;>
> >>
> >> Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu <javascript:;>
> >>
> >> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
> >> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
> >>
> >> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
> >> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
> >>
> >>
> >> ________________________________________________
> >>
> >> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
> >>
> >> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org
> <javascript:;>
> >>
> >> Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu <javascript:;>
> >>
> >> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
> >> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
> >>
> >> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
> >> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
> >
> > ________________________________________________
> >
> >
> > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
> >
> > Valerie Sutton
> > SignWriting List moderator
> > sutton at signwriting.org <javascript:;>
> >
> > Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
> > sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu <javascript:;>
> >
> > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
> > http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
> >
> > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
> > http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
> >
>
> ________________________________________________
>
>
> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>
> Valerie Sutton
> SignWriting List moderator
> sutton at signwriting.org <javascript:;>
>
> Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu <javascript:;>
>
> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>
> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
>
>

-- 
‿·⪦˒˒

*****
Adrean Clark

Author and Artist

http://www.adreanclark.com

________________________________________________

SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION

Valerie Sutton
SignWriting List moderator
sutton at signwriting.org

Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu

SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist

Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/sw-l/attachments/20150723/9f9439e0/attachment.htm>