[Sw-l] Timing Symbols

Thu Aug 15 01:56:30 UTC 2019

Hi Adam, Val and everyone,

1)  Same time

2)  Same time alternating (Communication)

Best regards,

André
De :  Adam Frost <icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM>
Répondre à :  "SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages"
<SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU>
Date :  Wed, 14 Aug 2019 16:56:34 -0700
À :  <SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU>
Objet :  Re: Timing Symbols

Yes, I suspect we are talking apples and oranges, which is probably partly
due to me switching back and forth between full SignWriting and making a
shortened form for handwriting. ;-)

I think I will pull it back a little because it seems I don’t understand the
“same time alternating” as well as I thought. I could get into why I thought
that, but I think it might be better if we get back to basics and then see
where the thought paths diverge.

Let's consider these two writings. (This is how I would normally write them
for publication. Ha!)

If I were to add the timing symbols, I would add the “Same Time” symbol to
the first writing. What about the second writing? Which timing symbol would
be correctly used?

Adam

> On Aug 14, 2019, at 1:28 PM, Valerie Sutton
> <0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU> wrote:
> 
> SignWriting List
> August 14, 2019
> 
> Oh you are doing a great job, Adam -
> 
> Thank you for accepting being a co-author with me on a new manual "SignWriting
> Movement Symbols Manual". It will be exciting for me to work with you on these
> details...
> 
> I suspect we are talking about apples and oranges. In your case you are trying
> to develop good handwriting techniques and we are in sore need of your help,
> and others help too, when it comes to handwriting...
> 
> But what is important to me is to be sure I can read your formal usage of the
> Timing symbols. I do not believe it has anything to do with diagonal or
> straight forward.
> 
> You see, originally we never had Alternating Symbols, because we could see the
> alternating movement through the way we wrote the arrows in movement clusters.
> 
> Then, when we added the symbol "Alternating" writers were not always sure how
> to use it. It really is only a reinforcement for the information of
> alternating, which is already written in the movement cluster that has
> alternating symbols.
> 
> So here is how I would write the last one...just change the arrows to show
> alternating and it works ;-)
> 
> <alternating.png>
> 
> 
> 
> So your shortened writing is doing fine!
> 
> Forward-forward and alternating are simply different movement clusters - thats
> all -
> 
> Val ;-)
> 
> 
> 
> -------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Aug 14, 2019, at 12:54 PM, Adam Frost <icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
>> 
>> I guess you are right about the last one. My shortened writing might actually
>> mean more of a reciprocity in movement. So I guess movements going to
>> opposite corners on the same wall is another case where what I was thinking
>> for using the timing symbols wouldn’t exactly work.
>> 
>> It seems that if I use non-diagonal movements, there isn’t much of a problem
>> with using these timing symbols to give information what the other hand is
>> doing. However, things really start to break down once I start using diagonal
>> movements. Too many possibilities I guess.
>> 
>> <namesign.png>
>> Adam
>> 
>>> On Aug 14, 2019, at 12:38 PM, Valerie Sutton
>>> <0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Someone told me they could not read the diagram we were discussing, so here
>>> is a screen capture:
>>> 
>>> <Screen Shot 2019-08-14 at 11.54.06 AM.png>
>>> 
>>> 
>>> The handwriting is fine Adam. One-handed writing with Timing symbols should
>>> work. The only issue is that there is a feeling difference and a production
>>> difference between alternating movement arrows and forward-forward -
>>> 
>>> the  very last example here would not be possible - it is saying to
>>> alternate both hands at the same time but only move forward-forward with
>>> both hands at the same time so there is no alternating then
>>> 
>>> so the Alternating Timing Symbol must have alternating Movement Clusters to
>>> match with it, or it is not readable, unless new definitions are created -
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Aug 14, 2019, at 12:00 PM, Valerie Sutton
>>>> <0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Hi Adam -
>>>> I am so sorry that I do not see the alternating in these writings -
>>>> 
>>>> You only have " forward-forward movement" - where is the "forward-back"
>>>> movement that is needed for alternating?
>>>> 
>>>> I would need you to sign the first one for me to understand what you are
>>>> trying to write -
>>>> 
>>>> Is this what you are writing?
>>>> 
>>>> right forward, then left forward, then right forward, then left forward
>>>> 
>>>> or are you doing
>>>> 
>>>> forward-forward right and then forward-forward left?
>>>> 
>>>> why do they have to be forward-forward? why can't they have alternating in
>>>> the symbol cluster?
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On Aug 14, 2019, at 11:49 AM, Adam Frost <icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> When writing with full formal Signwriting, I don’t really use the timing
>>>>> symbols; however, I have found that the use of timing symbols when writing
>>>>> only the right hand allows me to encode what the left hand is doing in a
>>>>> simple and fast fashion.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I should clarify I sent formal written SignWriting to show clearly what
>>>>> signs I was referring to. If I were to use how I currently handwrite, two
>>>>> of the writings wouldn’t be clear. I will place the formal writing and
>>>>> shortened writing side by side. Notice the first two shortened writings
>>>>> are basically the same.
>>>>> 
>>>>> <glyphogram.php>              <glyphogram.php>
>>>>> 
>>>>> <glyphogram.php>         <glyphogram.php>
>>>>> 
>>>>> <glyphogram.php>
>>>>> 
>>>>> <glyphogram.php>
>>>>> 
>>>>> <namesign.png>
>>>>> Adam
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Aug 14, 2019, at 11:06 AM, Valerie Sutton <sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> SignWriting List
>>>>>> August 14, 2019
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hi Adam and SW List members ;-)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Thank you for sharing your handwriting question with us, Adam. My answer
>>>>>> is below so scroll down...
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> INTRODUCTION for our list members:
>>>>>> There are two ways to write SignWriting...
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 1. "SignWriting Printing" for printing books in written sign language,
>>>>>> and writing Wikipedia articles and other formal publications.
>>>>>> 2. "SignWriting Handwriting" for quick writing for note taking and
>>>>>> personal use
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> In my work, I am focusing on Printing sign language literature.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> For example right now I am working on the layout and publishing of the
>>>>>> entire New Testament in written ASL, that was translated from the English
>>>>>> Bible into ASL and written in SignWriting by Nancy Romero. It took Nancy
>>>>>> over a decade to write all 27 books of the New Testament in ASL, and now
>>>>>> we are printing all of the 27 NT books in 8 ASL volumes. I am completing
>>>>>> volume 6 right now, and within a few months we will have all 8 volumes
>>>>>> ready to distribute to the public. I will announce it of course ;-)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The publishing of sign language literature has helped me focus on one
>>>>>> issue: is the way we are publishing "easy-to-read-at-a-glance"? Can the
>>>>>> reader understand the sentences quickly and visually, without having to
>>>>>> "guess" what the writer means? And have we captured the true "visual"
>>>>>> nature of sign languages while we are also writing grammar, structure and
>>>>>> so many necessary details required of all written literature?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> So writing literature is different than writing handwriting by hand.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Meanwhile - Adam uses SignWriting Handwriting everyday I believe and
>>>>>> teaches using it to his ASL classrooms - Handwriting has another focus -
>>>>>> it is to aid the writer to write quickly for note taking etc... and it is
>>>>>> not as standardized... more individualized...
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Adam presented a paper on SW Handwriting at our SignWriting Symposium
>>>>>> 2014:
>>>>>> “Ways to Write Sign Languages by Hand with SignWriting”
>>>>>> <http://www.signwriting.org/symposium/presentation0003.html#abstract>
>>>>>> http://www.signwriting.org/symposium/presentation0003.html
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> ANSWERING Adam's question:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Here is my question to you Adam - in your examples that you show us
>>>>>> below, all of the examples look like the formal writing - they look like
>>>>>> Printing -
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> But I am assuming that you took away one hand and you are writing
>>>>>> one-handed signing as a handwriting method for speed, and what has
>>>>>> happened is that there are times when you actually need both hands -
>>>>>> right?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> But there is a solution both for the Printing and Handwriting - There is
>>>>>> a misunderstanding about the Alternating Symbol. Technically the
>>>>>> Alternating Symbol isn't even needed if you write the sign using
>>>>>> alternating arrows. The Movement Cluster of "alternating arrows" existed
>>>>>> long before we ever had the Alternating symbol, and we were able to write
>>>>>> anything clearly without the abstract symbol called Alternating.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The key is how one "reads" the Movement Cluster. You always read the
>>>>>> cluster from the inside-out. So in the example I have attached, the left
>>>>>> hand is moving forward while the right hand is moving back at the same
>>>>>> time. And then the directions reverse. All this is happening
>>>>>> simultaneously. So no Alternating Symbol is even needed if you know how
>>>>>> to read the Movement Cluster. If in your Handwriting you can write it
>>>>>> that way, it should help ;-)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> <Screen Shot 2019-08-14 at 10.51.36 AM.png>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> <Screen Shot 2019-08-14 at 10.47.34 AM.png>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -------
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Aug 14, 2019, at 9:47 AM, Adam Frost <icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Ok. This is good to know. ;-)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Now for a little background before I explain my conundrum. (Ha!)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> When I write by hand, I generally shorten it by only writing the right
>>>>>>> hand’s movement and then using these timing symbols — first 3 actually —
>>>>>>> to explain what the left hand is doing. For the most part, this has
>>>>>>> worked fine for me. Then I tried to write a few different verb
>>>>>>> agreements for “repetitively sending”.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> There is a version of the verb “to send" that uses the alternating
>>>>>>> movement of both hands which can be used to explain the actions of a
>>>>>>> professional mover placing various furnitures into a moving van. For
>>>>>>> this, I used the “every other time” symbol.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> When I read my writing, I wasn’t sure if it was the above described
>>>>>>> sign, or another version of this “to send” verb that means to sort
>>>>>>> various objects into two different locations.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I wrote the full version with the left hands for both. Notice that
>>>>>>> removing the left handshapes and movements would make these both written
>>>>>>> the same.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> This lead me to wonder what the writing would look like if the movement
>>>>>>> wasn’t alternating or “every other time”. Both are possible versions
>>>>>>> with this verb.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> This writing would mean to repeatedly put objects into the same
>>>>>>> location.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> And this writing would mean the same as above but into two different
>>>>>>> locations.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> So I guess those would be clear if I were to only write the right hand
>>>>>>> with the timing symbols. I’m not sure how I would make the first two
>>>>>>> clear while only writing the right hand and the timing symbols.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> <namesign.png>
>>>>>>> Adam
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Aug 14, 2019, at 9:10 AM, Valerie Sutton <sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> SignWriting List
>>>>>>> August 14, 2019
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Hello Adam and SW List members -
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Thank you for this question. Yes, the definitions you list are the more
>>>>>>> recent definitions which I believe are clear. It is confirmed that they
>>>>>>> are correct.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Years ago, I called them "Movement Dynamics" in the Lessons in
>>>>>>> SignWriting Textbook, on page 183. Attached is a screen capture of that
>>>>>>> page from the book, plus the sign for FEW in ASL that is an example of
>>>>>>> the Gradual Movement Symbol, which is like two miniature SLOW and SMOOTH
>>>>>>> symbols placed between two positions, to mean "gradually moving into the
>>>>>>> next position". The Gradual symbol is always small between two
>>>>>>> positions.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> <FEW in ASL.png>
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> <Movement_Dynamics_Lessons_p183.png>
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Aug 14, 2019, at 8:48 AM, Adam Frost <icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I just wanted to confirm the definitions of these four symbols. (I have
>>>>>>> added the image below for reference just in case people can’t read the
>>>>>>> font.)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> <Image 8-14-19 at 8.29 AM.jpg>
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 1. 񋸡 The ISWA 2010 Reference calls this “Same Time”. This means that
>>>>>>> both hands travel along their path simultaneously.
>>>>>>> 2. 񋺁 The ISWA 2010 Reference calls this “Same Time Alternating”. This
>>>>>>> means that both hands travel along their path simultaneously in opposite
>>>>>>> directions.
>>>>>>> 3. 񋻡 The ISWA 2010 Reference calls this “Every Other Time”. This means
>>>>>>> that both hands travel along their path while the other hand isn’t
>>>>>>> moving. There is no distinction to moving in the “opposite direction”
>>>>>>> like the previous symbol.
>>>>>>> 4. 񋽁 The ISWA 2010 Reference calls this “Gradual”. This means that the
>>>>>>> change from one handshape to the next has a flowing change rather than
>>>>>>> an immediate change.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> <namesign.png>
>>>>>>> Adam
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> ________________________________________________
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
>>>>>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
>>>>>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
>>>>> 
>>>>> ________________________________________________
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>>>> 
>>>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org
>>>>> 
>>>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>>>>> 
>>>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
>>>>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>>>>> 
>>>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
>>>>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
>>>> 
>>>> ________________________________________________
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>>> 
>>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org
>>>> 
>>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>>>> 
>>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
>>>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>>>> 
>>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
>>>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
>>> 
>>> ________________________________________________
>>> 
>>> 
>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>> 
>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org
>>> 
>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>>> 
>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
>>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>>> 
>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
>>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
>> 
>> ________________________________________________
>> 
>> 
>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>> 
>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org
>> 
>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>> 
>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>> 
>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
> 
> ________________________________________________
> 
> 
> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
> 
> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org
> 
> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
> 
> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
> 
> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1

________________________________________________

SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION

Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org

Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu

SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist

Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
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________________________________________________

SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION

Valerie Sutton
SignWriting List moderator
sutton at signwriting.org

Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu

SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist

Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
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