From sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG Wed Apr 7 17:48:52 2021 From: sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG (Valerie Sutton) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 14:48:52 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] Amit Moryossef is creating videos using SignWriting! Message-ID: SignWriting List April 7, 2021 Thank you, Amit Moryossef, and software team, for creating videos that use SignWriting symbols! Here is an example of several videos from Amit’s YouTube channel: https://youtu.be/pCKRWSNIaNQ I will post more later - And write to the SignWriting List, or to me privately, any time, to ask questions about symbols and so forth - Valerie Sutton sutton at signwriting.org ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2021-04-07 at 2.42.46 PM.png Type: image/png Size: 273850 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG Wed Apr 7 17:56:49 2021 From: sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG (Valerie Sutton) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 14:56:49 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] Amit Moryossef is creating videos using SignWriting! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: SignWriting List April 7, 2021 Another video. Thank you, Amit! https://youtu.be/L95mA_h0CjA ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Amit Moryossef Video.png Type: image/png Size: 257075 bytes Desc: not available URL: From icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM Thu Apr 15 16:22:07 2021 From: icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM (Adam Frost) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2021 13:22:07 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] Placement of Signs in Space Message-ID: <56B3D8C1-59BB-4B62-9321-D3881E129272@gmail.com> I was doing some writing in SignWriting and came across an issue that I never really thought of in the past. In ASL, scores can be done by placing the teams in a location and then giving the numbers of the score in that location. For example, I can have one team on the right and another on the left. If I sign 4 on the right and then 5 on the left, it clearly says who has what score. This is easily done using the lanes in SignWriting. The issue came into play when it was giving scores for “my team” vs “your team”. If I signed 4 near my chest and then 5 away from me, it would means “I have 4 and you have 5.” When I tried to write this, I wrote the shoulder line over 4 and wrote 5 as I do normally. This didn’t really seem like an issue to me until I had a friend asked me how I knew that 5 was signed away from my body rather than just in the neutral location when signing 5 on its own. I had said I just assumed it, but that got me thinking if there was a simple way to write it so that it would be clear and didn’t have to be assumed. Is there? Adam ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: namesign.png Type: image/png Size: 440 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jennicaj at GMAIL.COM Thu Apr 15 16:37:00 2021 From: jennicaj at GMAIL.COM (Jennica Pounds) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2021 13:37:00 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] Canonical way of representing signwriting programmatically Message-ID: Hi, I'm interested in using SignWriting programmatically. Poking around the Internet, it seems like fonts aren't quite there, and creating SignWriting text is done via computer-aided SVGs. Is that correct? If so, where can I see the latest SVG/XML specifications? Jennica ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From slevin at SIGNPUDDLE.NET Thu Apr 15 18:44:32 2021 From: slevin at SIGNPUDDLE.NET (Stephen Slevinski) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2021 17:44:32 -0500 Subject: [Sw-l] Canonical way of representing signwriting programmatically In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <976424ee-bb61-7462-739e-89184d3d0b47@signpuddle.net> Hi Jennica, You can check out a few YouTube videos if you want. * https://stream.signwriting.org References can be found here: * https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-slevinski-formal-signwriting-07#section-3.3 * https://slevinski.github.io/SuttonSignWriting/components/svg.html You may be interested in the SignWriting Web Components. * https://www.npmjs.com/package/@sutton-signwriting/sgnw-components When creating SVG images for SignWriting, there are two packages you can use. * https://www.npmjs.com/package/@sutton-signwriting/font-ttf * https://www.npmjs.com/package/@sutton-signwriting/font-db font-ttf is used in the browser and uses TTF files to view the images. font-db is used in node and uses a database to create stand-alone svg images. Regards, -Steve On 4/15/21 3:37 PM, Jennica Pounds wrote: > Hi, > > I'm interested in using SignWriting programmatically. Poking around > the Internet, it seems like fonts aren't quite there, and creating > SignWriting text is done via computer-aided SVGs. > > Is that correct? If so, where can I see the latest SVG/XML > specifications? > > Jennica > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > > > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: > sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > > > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page > http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > > > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages > http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > > ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From 0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU Thu Apr 15 21:17:43 2021 From: 0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU (Valerie Sutton) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2021 18:17:43 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: <56B3D8C1-59BB-4B62-9321-D3881E129272@gmail.com> References: <56B3D8C1-59BB-4B62-9321-D3881E129272@gmail.com> Message-ID: <508FAD7A-00A7-40F1-90DD-831A3C8A2841@mac.com> SignWriting List April 15, 2021 Hello everyone on the SignWriting List, and thank you for this message, Adam ;-) Of course this sounds like a very useful way to write “teams” in sign language, but can you show us written examples in SignWriting? And since I am not a teacher of a classroom of ASL signers, maybe you could explain to me (and all of us) - what do you mean by “teams”? Is it for writing some kind of a game in ASL? But to answer your question - the Lanes show us spatial comparisons and weight-shifting to the “right of center” and to the “left of center”. They are invaluable for writing spatial comparisons in sign languages. Technically there is a Lane that is “far in front” and one that is “close to the chest” - and one that is neutral in signing space - but over time we started to write those differences in “depth” with Movement Symbols. We actually DID have a way to write “depth” with hand symbols years ago, in the 1980s. This was a technique that really worked in the early days of SignWriting, when we were writing sign language by hand with ink pens. There were 3 sizes of hand symbols - the normal size we use everyday is the “middle neutral space”, the smaller version of the symbol means “far away from the chest” and the larger symbol means closer to the chest. This is based on art perspectives. Further away is always smaller. I have an article about this somewhere - I will try to find it and post it later. But, as time went by, it seemed like too much information that was not necessary for everyday writing, and for computer symbol sets, it was a real problem because it would double or triple the amount of symbols so the idea of "far being smaller" and “close being larger” was ignored and we have one set of symbols at one size for everything. The ISWA 2010 is large enough! So how do we see “depth” in everyday writing? Movement Symbols and some standardized spellings have helped. But now - Adam - please post some SignWriting showing us what you have written - many thanks! Val ;-) ---------- > On Apr 15, 2021, at 1:22 PM, Adam Frost wrote: > > I was doing some writing in SignWriting and came across an issue that I never really thought of in the past. In ASL, scores can be done by placing the teams in a location and then giving the numbers of the score in that location. For example, I can have one team on the right and another on the left. If I sign 4 on the right and then 5 on the left, it clearly says who has what score. This is easily done using the lanes in SignWriting. > > The issue came into play when it was giving scores for “my team” vs “your team”. If I signed 4 near my chest and then 5 away from me, it would means “I have 4 and you have 5.” When I tried to write this, I wrote the shoulder line over 4 and wrote 5 as I do normally. This didn’t really seem like an issue to me until I had a friend asked me how I knew that 5 was signed away from my body rather than just in the neutral location when signing 5 on its own. I had said I just assumed it, but that got me thinking if there was a simple way to write it so that it would be clear and didn’t have to be assumed. Is there? > > > Adam > ____________ ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: namesign.png Type: image/png Size: 440 bytes Desc: not available URL: From icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM Thu Apr 15 21:40:47 2021 From: icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM (Adam Frost) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2021 18:40:47 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: <508FAD7A-00A7-40F1-90DD-831A3C8A2841@mac.com> References: <56B3D8C1-59BB-4B62-9321-D3881E129272@gmail.com> <508FAD7A-00A7-40F1-90DD-831A3C8A2841@mac.com> Message-ID: <3CF10F95-B13D-4E27-BDEF-A15D7FB64631@gmail.com> I thought I recall something about the sizing being used for depth, but I don’t think that it would be necessary for everyday writing. Like I said, this situation rarely comes up for me. ;-) Here is a screen capture of what I wrote. It is talking about two baseball teams: The Nationals and the Diamondbacks. Notice the last two signs are supposed to have the depth. I feel that the shoulder line shows the number being closer to the body, but the other number doesn’t have the concept of being away from the body as it is written. As for the concepts of “teams”, ASL makes use of placing concepts in specific locations all the time. It isn’t limited to names of teams. That is the reason the lanes work so well for this. However, it is common for people to have their preferred teams in sports, so that is where the depth comes into play. Adam > On Apr 15, 2021, at 6:17 PM, Valerie Sutton <0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU> wrote: > > SignWriting List > April 15, 2021 > > Hello everyone on the SignWriting List, and thank you for this message, Adam ;-) > > Of course this sounds like a very useful way to write “teams” in sign language, but can you show us written examples in SignWriting? > > And since I am not a teacher of a classroom of ASL signers, maybe you could explain to me (and all of us) - what do you mean by “teams”? Is it for writing some kind of a game in ASL? > > But to answer your question - the Lanes show us spatial comparisons and weight-shifting to the “right of center” and to the “left of center”. They are invaluable for writing spatial comparisons in sign languages. > > Technically there is a Lane that is “far in front” and one that is “close to the chest” - and one that is neutral in signing space - but over time we started to write those differences in “depth” with Movement Symbols. We actually DID have a way to write “depth” with hand symbols years ago, in the 1980s. > > This was a technique that really worked in the early days of SignWriting, when we were writing sign language by hand with ink pens. There were 3 sizes of hand symbols - the normal size we use everyday is the “middle neutral space”, the smaller version of the symbol means “far away from the chest” and the larger symbol means closer to the chest. This is based on art perspectives. Further away is always smaller. > > I have an article about this somewhere - I will try to find it and post it later. > > But, as time went by, it seemed like too much information that was not necessary for everyday writing, and for computer symbol sets, it was a real problem because it would double or triple the amount of symbols so the idea of "far being smaller" and “close being larger” was ignored and we have one set of symbols at one size for everything. The ISWA 2010 is large enough! > > So how do we see “depth” in everyday writing? Movement Symbols and some standardized spellings have helped. > > But now - Adam - please post some SignWriting showing us what you have written - many thanks! > > Val ;-) > > ---------- > > > >> On Apr 15, 2021, at 1:22 PM, Adam Frost > wrote: >> >> I was doing some writing in SignWriting and came across an issue that I never really thought of in the past. In ASL, scores can be done by placing the teams in a location and then giving the numbers of the score in that location. For example, I can have one team on the right and another on the left. If I sign 4 on the right and then 5 on the left, it clearly says who has what score. This is easily done using the lanes in SignWriting. >> >> The issue came into play when it was giving scores for “my team” vs “your team”. If I signed 4 near my chest and then 5 away from me, it would means “I have 4 and you have 5.” When I tried to write this, I wrote the shoulder line over 4 and wrote 5 as I do normally. This didn’t really seem like an issue to me until I had a friend asked me how I knew that 5 was signed away from my body rather than just in the neutral location when signing 5 on its own. I had said I just assumed it, but that got me thinking if there was a simple way to write it so that it would be clear and didn’t have to be assumed. Is there? >> >> >> Adam >> > > ____________ > > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2021-04-15 at 6.32.37 PM.png Type: image/png Size: 47883 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: namesign.png Type: image/png Size: 440 bytes Desc: not available URL: From atg at VIDEOTRON.CA Thu Apr 15 22:39:07 2021 From: atg at VIDEOTRON.CA (=?ISO-8859-1?B?QW5kcuk=?= Thibeault) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2021 22:39:07 -0400 Subject: [Sw-l] Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello Adaame and Val, I write this: Best regards, André De : Adam Frost Répondre à : "SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages" Date : Thu, 15 Apr 2021 18:40:47 -0700 À : Objet : Re: Placement of Signs in Space I thought I recall something about the sizing being used for depth, but I don¹t think that it would be necessary for everyday writing. Like I said, this situation rarely comes up for me. ;-) Here is a screen capture of what I wrote. It is talking about two baseball teams: The Nationals and the Diamondbacks. Notice the last two signs are supposed to have the depth. I feel that the shoulder line shows the number being closer to the body, but the other number doesn¹t have the concept of being away from the body as it is written. As for the concepts of ³teams², ASL makes use of placing concepts in specific locations all the time. It isn¹t limited to names of teams. That is the reason the lanes work so well for this. However, it is common for people to have their preferred teams in sports, so that is where the depth comes into play. Adam > On Apr 15, 2021, at 6:17 PM, Valerie Sutton > <0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU> wrote: > > SignWriting List > April 15, 2021 > > Hello everyone on the SignWriting List, and thank you for this message, Adam > ;-) > > Of course this sounds like a very useful way to write ³teams² in sign > language, but can you show us written examples in SignWriting? > > And since I am not a teacher of a classroom of ASL signers, maybe you could > explain to me (and all of us) - what do you mean by ³teams²? Is it for writing > some kind of a game in ASL? > > But to answer your question - the Lanes show us spatial comparisons and > weight-shifting to the ³right of center² and to the ³left of center². They are > invaluable for writing spatial comparisons in sign languages. > > Technically there is a Lane that is ³far in front² and one that is ³close to > the chest² - and one that is neutral in signing space - but over time we > started to write those differences in ³depth² with Movement Symbols. We > actually DID have a way to write ³depth² with hand symbols years ago, in the > 1980s. > > This was a technique that really worked in the early days of SignWriting, when > we were writing sign language by hand with ink pens. There were 3 sizes of > hand symbols - the normal size we use everyday is the ³middle neutral space², > the smaller version of the symbol means ³far away from the chest² and the > larger symbol means closer to the chest. This is based on art perspectives. > Further away is always smaller. > > I have an article about this somewhere - I will try to find it and post it > later. > > But, as time went by, it seemed like too much information that was not > necessary for everyday writing, and for computer symbol sets, it was a real > problem because it would double or triple the amount of symbols so the idea of > "far being smaller" and ³close being larger² was ignored and we have one set > of symbols at one size for everything. The ISWA 2010 is large enough! > > So how do we see ³depth² in everyday writing? Movement Symbols and some > standardized spellings have helped. > > But now - Adam - please post some SignWriting showing us what you have written > - many thanks! > > Val ;-) > > ---------- > > > >> On Apr 15, 2021, at 1:22 PM, Adam Frost wrote: >> >> I was doing some writing in SignWriting and came across an issue that I never >> really thought of in the past. In ASL, scores can be done by placing the >> teams in a location and then giving the numbers of the score in that >> location. For example, I can have one team on the right and another on the >> left. If I sign 4 on the right and then 5 on the left, it clearly says who >> has what score. This is easily done using the lanes in SignWriting. >> >> The issue came into play when it was giving scores for ³my team² vs ³your >> team². If I signed 4 near my chest and then 5 away from me, it would means ³I >> have 4 and you have 5.² When I tried to write this, I wrote the shoulder line >> over 4 and wrote 5 as I do normally. This didn¹t really seem like an issue to >> me until I had a friend asked me how I knew that 5 was signed away from my >> body rather than just in the neutral location when signing 5 on its own. I >> had said I just assumed it, but that got me thinking if there was a simple >> way to write it so that it would be clear and didn¹t have to be assumed. Is >> there? >> >> >> Adam >> > > ____________ > > ________________________________________________ > > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages > http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2021-04-15 at 6.32.37 PM.png Type: image/png Size: 47883 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: namesign.png Type: image/png Size: 440 bytes Desc: not available URL: From 000000111c1a7803-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU Fri Apr 16 06:23:53 2021 From: 000000111c1a7803-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU (Cherie Wren) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 10:23:53 +0000 Subject: [Sw-l] [SPAM] Re: Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1573815095.1578270.1618568633502@mail.yahoo.com> when I sign two team scores, its usually one nearly touching my chest (my team) and one farther away... but still in neutral space.  Perhaps a touch symbol for the nearer "my team"? On Thursday, April 15, 2021, 10:39:35 PM EDT, André Thibeault wrote: Hello Adaame and Val, I write this: Best regards, AndréDe : Adam Frost Répondre à : "SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages" Date : Thu, 15 Apr 2021 18:40:47 -0700 À : Objet : Re: Placement of Signs in Space I thought I recall something about the sizing being used for depth, but I don’t think that it would be necessary for everyday writing. Like I said, this situation rarely comes up for me. ;-) Here is a screen capture of what I wrote. It is talking about two baseball teams: The Nationals and the Diamondbacks. Notice the last two signs are supposed to have the depth. I feel that the shoulder line shows the number being closer to the body, but the other number doesn’t have the concept of being away from the body as it is written. As for the concepts of “teams”, ASL makes use of placing concepts in specific locations all the time. It isn’t limited to names of teams. That is the reason the lanes work so well for this. However, it is common for people to have their preferred teams in sports, so that is where the depth comes into play. Adam On Apr 15, 2021, at 6:17 PM, Valerie Sutton <0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU> wrote: SignWriting ListApril 15, 2021 Hello everyone on the SignWriting List, and thank you for this message, Adam ;-) Of course this sounds like a very useful way to write “teams” in sign language, but can you show us written examples in SignWriting? And since I am not a teacher of a classroom of ASL signers, maybe you could explain to me (and all of us) - what do you mean by “teams”? Is it for writing some kind of a game in ASL? But to answer your question - the Lanes show us spatial comparisons and weight-shifting to the “right of center” and to the “left of center”. They are invaluable for writing spatial comparisons in sign languages. Technically there is a Lane that is “far in front” and one that is “close to the chest” - and one that is neutral in signing space - but over time we started to write those differences in “depth” with Movement Symbols. We actually DID have a way to write “depth” with hand symbols years ago, in the 1980s. This was a technique that really worked in the early days of SignWriting, when we were writing sign language by hand with ink pens. There were 3 sizes of hand symbols - the normal size we use everyday is the “middle neutral space”, the smaller version of the symbol means “far away from the chest” and the larger symbol means closer to the chest. This is based on art perspectives. Further away is always smaller. I have an article about this somewhere - I will try to find it and post it later. But, as time went by, it seemed like too much information that was not necessary for everyday writing, and for computer symbol sets, it was a real problem because it would double or triple the amount of symbols so the idea of "far being smaller" and “close being larger” was ignored and we have one set of symbols at one size for everything. The ISWA 2010 is large enough! So how do we see “depth” in everyday writing? Movement Symbols and some standardized spellings have helped. But now - Adam - please post some SignWriting showing us what you have written - many thanks! Val ;-) ---------- On Apr 15, 2021, at 1:22 PM, Adam Frost wrote: I was doing some writing in SignWriting and came across an issue that I never really thought of in the past. In ASL, scores can be done by placing the teams in a location and then giving the numbers of the score in that location. For example, I can have one team on the right and another on the left. If I sign 4 on the right and then 5 on the left, it clearly says who has what score. This is easily done using the lanes in SignWriting. The issue came into play when it was giving scores for “my team” vs “your team”. If I signed 4 near my chest and then 5 away from me, it would means “I have 4 and you have 5.” When I tried to write this, I wrote the shoulder line over 4 and wrote 5 as I do normally. This didn’t really seem like an issue to me until I had a friend asked me how I knew that 5 was signed away from my body rather than just in the neutral location when signing 5 on its own. I had said I just assumed it, but that got me thinking if there was a simple way to write it so that it would be clear and didn’t have to be assumed. Is there? Adam ____________ ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie SuttonSignWriting List moderatorsutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List:sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Pagehttp://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messageshttp://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie SuttonSignWriting List moderatorsutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List:sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Pagehttp://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messageshttp://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie SuttonSignWriting List moderatorsutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List:sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Pagehttp://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messageshttp://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2021-04-15 at 6.32.37 PM.png Type: image/png Size: 47883 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: namesign.png Type: image/png Size: 440 bytes Desc: not available URL: From icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM Fri Apr 16 10:31:40 2021 From: icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM (Adam Frost) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 07:31:40 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] [SPAM] Re: Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: <1573815095.1578270.1618568633502@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1573815095.1578270.1618568633502@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thank you Cherie and André for your suggestions. Cherie, I agree that “other” team is still in neutral space, only farther away, while “my” team is closer to my chest. While I don’t see “my” team as actually touching my chest, I can see your suggestion for the touch symbol. Do you think that would make more sense than the shoulder line to imply that the sign is at or near the chest? André, your overhead view does make sense as being useful for showing depth, but the palm facing seems to be confusing. As you had it written, it means the palm is facing up rather than facing the chest. Unless I am wrong, the palm facings would would be as the following: If changing the view would make depth easier to see, I think using the side view would be easier for the palm facings. However, I don’t know if I like changing the viewpoint in everyday writing in such rare cases. However, I did notice that André combined the two scores into one sign to show the depth. I think that this would work (without having to change the viewpoint at all) only if both numbers are stated together. I am not sure how I would write the “other” team’s score to clearly show the depth without the viewpoint change. I do like the idea of having it be “smaller” to show it is farther away, but I’m not sure if that is practical either. (Just a thought, wouldn’t that just be handled by the font much like superscripts and subscripts? This doesn’t actually “create” more symbols when this is done. Hmm…) Adam > On Apr 16, 2021, at 3:23 AM, Cherie Wren <000000111c1a7803-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU> wrote: > > when I sign two team scores, its usually one nearly touching my chest (my team) and one farther away... but still in neutral space. Perhaps a touch symbol for the nearer "my team"? > > On Thursday, April 15, 2021, 10:39:35 PM EDT, André Thibeault wrote: > > > Hello Adaame and Val, > > I write this: > > > > Best regards, > > André > De : Adam Frost > > Répondre à : "SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages" > > Date : Thu, 15 Apr 2021 18:40:47 -0700 > À : > > Objet : Re: Placement of Signs in Space > > I thought I recall something about the sizing being used for depth, but I don’t think that it would be necessary for everyday writing. Like I said, this situation rarely comes up for me. ;-) > > Here is a screen capture of what I wrote. It is talking about two baseball teams: The Nationals and the Diamondbacks. > > > > Notice the last two signs are supposed to have the depth. I feel that the shoulder line shows the number being closer to the body, but the other number doesn’t have the concept of being away from the body as it is written. > > As for the concepts of “teams”, ASL makes use of placing concepts in specific locations all the time. It isn’t limited to names of teams. That is the reason the lanes work so well for this. However, it is common for people to have their preferred teams in sports, so that is where the depth comes into play. > > > Adam > >> On Apr 15, 2021, at 6:17 PM, Valerie Sutton <0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU > wrote: >> >> SignWriting List >> April 15, 2021 >> >> Hello everyone on the SignWriting List, and thank you for this message, Adam ;-) >> >> Of course this sounds like a very useful way to write “teams” in sign language, but can you show us written examples in SignWriting? >> >> And since I am not a teacher of a classroom of ASL signers, maybe you could explain to me (and all of us) - what do you mean by “teams”? Is it for writing some kind of a game in ASL? >> >> But to answer your question - the Lanes show us spatial comparisons and weight-shifting to the “right of center” and to the “left of center”. They are invaluable for writing spatial comparisons in sign languages. >> >> Technically there is a Lane that is “far in front” and one that is “close to the chest” - and one that is neutral in signing space - but over time we started to write those differences in “depth” with Movement Symbols. We actually DID have a way to write “depth” with hand symbols years ago, in the 1980s. >> >> This was a technique that really worked in the early days of SignWriting, when we were writing sign language by hand with ink pens. There were 3 sizes of hand symbols - the normal size we use everyday is the “middle neutral space”, the smaller version of the symbol means “far away from the chest” and the larger symbol means closer to the chest. This is based on art perspectives. Further away is always smaller. >> >> I have an article about this somewhere - I will try to find it and post it later. >> >> But, as time went by, it seemed like too much information that was not necessary for everyday writing, and for computer symbol sets, it was a real problem because it would double or triple the amount of symbols so the idea of "far being smaller" and “close being larger” was ignored and we have one set of symbols at one size for everything. The ISWA 2010 is large enough! >> >> So how do we see “depth” in everyday writing? Movement Symbols and some standardized spellings have helped. >> >> But now - Adam - please post some SignWriting showing us what you have written - many thanks! >> >> Val ;-) >> >> ---------- >> >> >> >>> On Apr 15, 2021, at 1:22 PM, Adam Frost > wrote: >>> >>> I was doing some writing in SignWriting and came across an issue that I never really thought of in the past. In ASL, scores can be done by placing the teams in a location and then giving the numbers of the score in that location. For example, I can have one team on the right and another on the left. If I sign 4 on the right and then 5 on the left, it clearly says who has what score. This is easily done using the lanes in SignWriting. >>> >>> The issue came into play when it was giving scores for “my team” vs “your team”. If I signed 4 near my chest and then 5 away from me, it would means “I have 4 and you have 5.” When I tried to write this, I wrote the shoulder line over 4 and wrote 5 as I do normally. This didn’t really seem like an issue to me until I had a friend asked me how I knew that 5 was signed away from my body rather than just in the neutral location when signing 5 on its own. I had said I just assumed it, but that got me thinking if there was a simple way to write it so that it would be clear and didn’t have to be assumed. Is there? >>> >>> >>> Adam >>> >> >> ____________ >> >> ________________________________________________ >> >> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >> >> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: namesign.png Type: image/png Size: 440 bytes Desc: not available URL: From 00000002a18e4451-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU Fri Apr 16 11:02:59 2021 From: 00000002a18e4451-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU (Jonathan Duncan) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 09:02:59 -0600 Subject: [Sw-l] [SPAM] Re: Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: References: <1573815095.1578270.1618568633502@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Adam,     Actually it is presently possible to write smaller hand shapes with the existing fonts. If you go to https://jonathandduncan.github.io/QuickSignEditor/signmaker/#?ui=en And click on QuickSignEditor, You can change the size of the symbols.  It uses the styling portion of the FSW that Steve and I created together. Use minus in the circle button. I'm don't know if any of the other editors can change the symbol size or not. For some reason, the symbol styling isn't coming across to the version of SignMaker I have it hosted in. So the technology is there, it's probably just a matter of adding a few more control to the editors for you to actually be able to do it and save it in SignPuddle. Steve,  what is your take on this subject? Regards, Jonathan On 4/16/2021 8:31 AM, Adam Frost wrote: > Thank you Cherie and André for your suggestions. > > Cherie, I agree that “other” team is still in neutral space, only > farther away, while “my” team is closer to my chest. While I don’t see > “my” team as actually touching my chest, I can see your suggestion for > the touch symbol. Do you think that would make more sense than the > shoulder line to imply that the sign is at or near the chest? > > André, your overhead view does make sense as being useful for showing > depth, but the palm facing seems to be confusing. As you had it > written, it means the palm is facing up rather than facing the chest. > Unless I am wrong, the palm facings would would be as the following: > > > If changing the view would make depth easier to see, I think using the > side view would be easier for the palm facings. > > > However, I don’t know if I like changing the viewpoint in everyday > writing in such rare cases. > > However, I did notice that André combined the two scores into one sign > to show the depth. I think that this would work (without having to > change the viewpoint at all) only if both numbers are stated together. > > > I am not sure how I would write the “other” team’s score to clearly > show the depth without the viewpoint change. I do like the idea of > having it be “smaller” to show it is farther away, but I’m not sure if > that is practical either. (Just a thought, wouldn’t that just be > handled by the font much like superscripts and subscripts? This > doesn’t actually “create” more symbols when this is done. Hmm…) > > > Adam > >> On Apr 16, 2021, at 3:23 AM, Cherie Wren >> <000000111c1a7803-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU >> > >> wrote: >> >> when I sign two team scores, its usually one nearly touching my chest >> (my team) and one farther away... but still in neutral space.  >> Perhaps a touch symbol for the nearer "my team"? >> >> On Thursday, April 15, 2021, 10:39:35 PM EDT, André Thibeault >> > wrote: >> >> >> Hello Adaame and Val, >> >> I write this: >> >> >> Best regards, >> >> André >> De : Adam Frost > >> Répondre à : "SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages" >> > > >> Date : Thu, 15 Apr 2021 18:40:47 -0700 >> À : > > >> Objet : Re: Placement of Signs in Space >> >> I thought I recall something about the sizing being used for depth, >> but I don’t think that it would be necessary for everyday writing. >> Like I said, this situation rarely comes up for me. ;-) >> >> Here is a screen capture of what I wrote. It is talking about two >> baseball teams: The Nationals and the Diamondbacks. >> >> >> >> Notice the last two signs are supposed to have the depth. I feel that >> the shoulder line shows the number being closer to the body, but the >> other number doesn’t have the concept of being away from the body as >> it is written. >> >> As for the concepts of “teams”, ASL makes use of placing concepts in >> specific locations all the time. It isn’t limited to names of teams. >> That is the reason the lanes work so well for this. However, it is >> common for people to have their preferred teams in sports, so that is >> where the depth comes into play. >> >> >> Adam >> >>> On Apr 15, 2021, at 6:17 PM, Valerie Sutton >>> <0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU >>> > >>> wrote: >>> >>> SignWriting List >>> April 15, 2021 >>> >>> Hello everyone on the SignWriting List, and thank you for this >>> message, Adam ;-) >>> >>> Of course this sounds like a very useful way to write “teams” in >>> sign language, but can you show us written examples in SignWriting? >>> >>> And since I am not a teacher of a classroom of ASL signers, maybe >>> you could explain to me (and all of us) - what do you mean by >>> “teams”? Is it for writing some kind of a game in ASL? >>> >>> But to answer your question - the Lanes show us spatial comparisons >>> and weight-shifting to the “right of center” and to the “left of >>> center”. They are invaluable for writing spatial comparisons in sign >>> languages. >>> >>> Technically there is a Lane that is “far in front” and one that is >>> “close to the chest” - and one that is neutral in signing space - >>> but over time we started to write those differences in “depth” with >>> Movement Symbols. We actually DID have a way to write “depth” with >>> hand symbols years ago, in the 1980s. >>> >>> This was a technique that really worked in the early days of >>> SignWriting, when we were writing sign language by hand with ink >>> pens. There were 3 sizes of hand symbols - the normal size we use >>> everyday is the “middle neutral space”, the smaller version of the >>> symbol means “far away from the chest” and the larger symbol means >>> closer to the chest. This is based on art perspectives. Further away >>> is always smaller. >>> >>> I have an article about this somewhere - I will try to find it and >>> post it later. >>> >>> But, as time went by, it seemed like too much information that was >>> not necessary for everyday writing, and for computer symbol sets, it >>> was a real problem because it would double or triple the amount of >>> symbols so the idea of "far being smaller" and “close being larger” >>> was ignored and we have one set of symbols at one size for >>> everything. The ISWA 2010 is large enough! >>> >>> So how do we see “depth” in everyday writing? Movement Symbols and >>> some standardized spellings have helped. >>> >>> But now - Adam - please post some SignWriting showing us what you >>> have written - many thanks! >>> >>> Val ;-) >>> >>> ---------- >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Apr 15, 2021, at 1:22 PM, Adam Frost >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> I was doing some writing in SignWriting and came across an issue >>>> that I never really thought of in the past. In ASL, scores can be >>>> done by placing the teams in a location and then giving the numbers >>>> of the score in that location. For example, I can have one team on >>>> the right and another on the left. If I sign 4 on the right and >>>> then 5 on the left, it clearly says who has what score. This is >>>> easily done using the lanes in SignWriting. >>>> >>>> The issue came into play when it was giving scores for “my team” vs >>>> “your team”. If I signed 4 near my chest and then 5 away from me, >>>> it would means “I have 4 and you have 5.” When I tried to write >>>> this, I wrote the shoulder line over 4 and wrote 5 as I do >>>> normally. This didn’t really seem like an issue to me until I had a >>>> friend asked me how I knew that 5 was signed away from my body >>>> rather than just in the neutral location when signing 5 on its own. >>>> I had said I just assumed it, but that got me thinking if there was >>>> a simple way to write it so that it would be clear and didn’t have >>>> to be assumed. Is there? >>>> >>>> >>>> Adam >>>> >>> >>> ____________ >>> >>> ________________________________________________ >>> >>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>> >>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>> >>> >>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: >>> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>> >>> >>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page >>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>> >>> >>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages >>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >>> >>> >> >> ________________________________________________ >> >> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >> >> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >> >> >> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: >> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >> >> >> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page >> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >> >> >> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages >> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >> >> >> ________________________________________________ >> >> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >> >> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >> >> >> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: >> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >> >> >> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page >> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >> >> >> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages >> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >> >> >> ________________________________________________ >> >> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >> >> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >> >> >> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: >> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >> >> >> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page >> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >> >> >> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages >> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >> > Shot 2021-04-15 at 6.32.37 PM.png> >> > > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > > > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: > sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > > > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page > http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > > > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages > http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > > ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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See links below: New postings in Nicaraguan Sign Language on the SignWriting Site https://www.signwriting.org/#RecentPostingsNicaragua ANANSI Y SUS SEIS HIJOS IN NICARAGUAN SIGN LANGUAGE YouTube Video: https://youtu.be/lACP0qnJjnw Download PowerPoint with Video (Large File): https://www.signwriting.org/archive/slides1/swslides085_Anansi_y_sus_seis_hijos_Kegl_04152021.pptx Download PDF without video: https://www.signwriting.org/archive/docs13/sw1293_NI_Anansi_y_sus_seis_hijos_Kegl_04142021.pdf Thanks again and enjoy this wonderful children’s story! Val ;-) Valerie Sutton sutton at signwriting.org ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From slevin at SIGNPUDDLE.NET Fri Apr 16 12:50:48 2021 From: slevin at SIGNPUDDLE.NET (Stephen Slevinski) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 11:50:48 -0500 Subject: [Sw-l] [SPAM] Re: Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: References: <1573815095.1578270.1618568633502@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41db7358-4d87-3e8a-cfb7-09022e418559@signpuddle.net> Hi Jonathan, SignMaker 2017 supports the styling string, but it is a manual entry process and only for creating PNG or SVG output images. http://signbank.org/signmaker/#?ui=en This example uses a styling string of "--Z01,0.5Z03,2" Z01,0.5 = Zoom for first symbol of 0.5. Z03,2 = Zoom for third symbol of 2 This topic gets into the difference between plain-text and rich-text. Oversimplified, plain-text focuses on meaning while rich-text adds formatting. If you take away formatting from rich-text, you should be left with understandable plain-text. I believe a sign should be understandable without differences in symbol size. -Steve On 4/16/21 10:02 AM, Jonathan Duncan wrote: > > Hi Adam, > >     Actually it is presently possible to write smaller hand shapes > with the existing fonts. > > If you go to > > https://jonathandduncan.github.io/QuickSignEditor/signmaker/#?ui=en > > And click on QuickSignEditor, > > You can change the size of the symbols.  It uses the styling portion > of the FSW that Steve and I created together. > > Use minus in the circle button. > > I'm don't know if any of the other editors can change the symbol size > or not. > > For some reason, the symbol styling isn't coming across to the version > of SignMaker I have it hosted in. > > So the technology is there, it's probably just a matter of adding a > few more control to the editors for you to actually be able to do it > and save it in SignPuddle. > > Steve,  what is your take on this subject? > > Regards, > > Jonathan > > > On 4/16/2021 8:31 AM, Adam Frost wrote: >> Thank you Cherie and André for your suggestions. >> >> Cherie, I agree that “other” team is still in neutral space, only >> farther away, while “my” team is closer to my chest. While I don’t >> see “my” team as actually touching my chest, I can see your >> suggestion for the touch symbol. Do you think that would make more >> sense than the shoulder line to imply that the sign is at or near the >> chest? >> >> André, your overhead view does make sense as being useful for showing >> depth, but the palm facing seems to be confusing. As you had it >> written, it means the palm is facing up rather than facing the chest. >> Unless I am wrong, the palm facings would would be as the following: >> >> >> If changing the view would make depth easier to see, I think using >> the side view would be easier for the palm facings. >> >> >> However, I don’t know if I like changing the viewpoint in everyday >> writing in such rare cases. >> >> However, I did notice that André combined the two scores into one >> sign to show the depth. I think that this would work (without having >> to change the viewpoint at all) only if both numbers are stated together. >> >> >> I am not sure how I would write the “other” team’s score to clearly >> show the depth without the viewpoint change. I do like the idea of >> having it be “smaller” to show it is farther away, but I’m not sure >> if that is practical either. (Just a thought, wouldn’t that just be >> handled by the font much like superscripts and subscripts? This >> doesn’t actually “create” more symbols when this is done. Hmm…) >> >> >> Adam >> >>> On Apr 16, 2021, at 3:23 AM, Cherie Wren >>> <000000111c1a7803-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU >>> > >>> wrote: >>> >>> when I sign two team scores, its usually one nearly touching my >>> chest (my team) and one farther away... but still in neutral space.  >>> Perhaps a touch symbol for the nearer "my team"? >>> >>> On Thursday, April 15, 2021, 10:39:35 PM EDT, André Thibeault >>> > wrote: >>> >>> >>> Hello Adaame and Val, >>> >>> I write this: >>> >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> André >>> De : Adam Frost > >>> Répondre à : "SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages" >>> >> > >>> Date : Thu, 15 Apr 2021 18:40:47 -0700 >>> À : >> > >>> Objet : Re: Placement of Signs in Space >>> >>> I thought I recall something about the sizing being used for depth, >>> but I don’t think that it would be necessary for everyday writing. >>> Like I said, this situation rarely comes up for me. ;-) >>> >>> Here is a screen capture of what I wrote. It is talking about two >>> baseball teams: The Nationals and the Diamondbacks. >>> >>> >>> >>> Notice the last two signs are supposed to have the depth. I feel >>> that the shoulder line shows the number being closer to the body, >>> but the other number doesn’t have the concept of being away from the >>> body as it is written. >>> >>> As for the concepts of “teams”, ASL makes use of placing concepts in >>> specific locations all the time. It isn’t limited to names of teams. >>> That is the reason the lanes work so well for this. However, it is >>> common for people to have their preferred teams in sports, so that >>> is where the depth comes into play. >>> >>> >>> Adam >>> >>>> On Apr 15, 2021, at 6:17 PM, Valerie Sutton >>>> <0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU >>>> > >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> SignWriting List >>>> April 15, 2021 >>>> >>>> Hello everyone on the SignWriting List, and thank you for this >>>> message, Adam ;-) >>>> >>>> Of course this sounds like a very useful way to write “teams” in >>>> sign language, but can you show us written examples in SignWriting? >>>> >>>> And since I am not a teacher of a classroom of ASL signers, maybe >>>> you could explain to me (and all of us) - what do you mean by >>>> “teams”? Is it for writing some kind of a game in ASL? >>>> >>>> But to answer your question - the Lanes show us spatial comparisons >>>> and weight-shifting to the “right of center” and to the “left of >>>> center”. They are invaluable for writing spatial comparisons in >>>> sign languages. >>>> >>>> Technically there is a Lane that is “far in front” and one that is >>>> “close to the chest” - and one that is neutral in signing space - >>>> but over time we started to write those differences in “depth” with >>>> Movement Symbols. We actually DID have a way to write “depth” with >>>> hand symbols years ago, in the 1980s. >>>> >>>> This was a technique that really worked in the early days of >>>> SignWriting, when we were writing sign language by hand with ink >>>> pens. There were 3 sizes of hand symbols - the normal size we use >>>> everyday is the “middle neutral space”, the smaller version of the >>>> symbol means “far away from the chest” and the larger symbol means >>>> closer to the chest. This is based on art perspectives. Further >>>> away is always smaller. >>>> >>>> I have an article about this somewhere - I will try to find it and >>>> post it later. >>>> >>>> But, as time went by, it seemed like too much information that was >>>> not necessary for everyday writing, and for computer symbol sets, >>>> it was a real problem because it would double or triple the amount >>>> of symbols so the idea of "far being smaller" and “close being >>>> larger” was ignored and we have one set of symbols at one size for >>>> everything. The ISWA 2010 is large enough! >>>> >>>> So how do we see “depth” in everyday writing? Movement Symbols and >>>> some standardized spellings have helped. >>>> >>>> But now - Adam - please post some SignWriting showing us what you >>>> have written - many thanks! >>>> >>>> Val ;-) >>>> >>>> ---------- >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Apr 15, 2021, at 1:22 PM, Adam Frost >>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I was doing some writing in SignWriting and came across an issue >>>>> that I never really thought of in the past. In ASL, scores can be >>>>> done by placing the teams in a location and then giving the >>>>> numbers of the score in that location. For example, I can have one >>>>> team on the right and another on the left. If I sign 4 on the >>>>> right and then 5 on the left, it clearly says who has what score. >>>>> This is easily done using the lanes in SignWriting. >>>>> >>>>> The issue came into play when it was giving scores for “my team” >>>>> vs “your team”. If I signed 4 near my chest and then 5 away from >>>>> me, it would means “I have 4 and you have 5.” When I tried to >>>>> write this, I wrote the shoulder line over 4 and wrote 5 as I do >>>>> normally. This didn’t really seem like an issue to me until I had >>>>> a friend asked me how I knew that 5 was signed away from my body >>>>> rather than just in the neutral location when signing 5 on its >>>>> own. I had said I just assumed it, but that got me thinking if >>>>> there was a simple way to write it so that it would be clear and >>>>> didn’t have to be assumed. Is there? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Adam >>>>> >>>> >>>> ____________ >>>> >>>> ________________________________________________ >>>> >>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>>> >>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: >>>> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>>> >>>> >>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page >>>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>>> >>>> >>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages >>>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >>>> >>>> >>> >>> ________________________________________________ >>> >>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>> >>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>> >>> >>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: >>> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>> >>> >>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page >>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>> >>> >>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages >>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >>> >>> >>> ________________________________________________ >>> >>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>> >>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>> >>> >>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: >>> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>> >>> >>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page >>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>> >>> >>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages >>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >>> >>> >>> ________________________________________________ >>> >>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>> >>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>> >>> >>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: >>> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>> >>> >>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page >>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>> >>> >>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages >>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >>> >> Shot 2021-04-15 at 6.32.37 PM.png> >>> >> >> ________________________________________________ >> >> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >> >> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >> >> >> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: >> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >> >> >> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page >> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >> >> >> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages >> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >> >> > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > > > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: > sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > > > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page > http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > > > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages > http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > > ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: Screen Shot 2021-04-16 at 7.22.39 AM.png Type: image/png Size: 11101 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2021-04-16 at 7.25.31 AM.png Type: image/png Size: 6692 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: namesign.png Type: image/png Size: 440 bytes Desc: not available URL: From atg at VIDEOTRON.CA Fri Apr 16 13:31:17 2021 From: atg at VIDEOTRON.CA (=?ISO-8859-1?B?QW5kcuk=?= Thibeault) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 13:31:17 -0400 Subject: [Sw-l] [SPAM] Re: Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello Val, I notice that I did not get many emails from SignWriting list. I do not understand why I do not receive them? Best regards, André De : Stephen Slevinski Répondre à : "SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages" Date : Fri, 16 Apr 2021 11:50:48 -0500 À : Objet : Re: [SPAM] Re: Placement of Signs in Space Hi Jonathan, SignMaker 2017 supports the styling string, but it is a manual entry process and only for creating PNG or SVG output images. http://signbank.org/signmaker/#?ui=en This example uses a styling string of "--Z01,0.5Z03,2" Z01,0.5 = Zoom for first symbol of 0.5. Z03,2 = Zoom for third symbol of 2 This topic gets into the difference between plain-text and rich-text. Oversimplified, plain-text focuses on meaning while rich-text adds formatting. If you take away formatting from rich-text, you should be left with understandable plain-text. I believe a sign should be understandable without differences in symbol size. -Steve On 4/16/21 10:02 AM, Jonathan Duncan wrote: > > > Hi Adam, > > > Actually it is presently possible to write smaller hand shapes with the > existing fonts. > > > If you go to > > > > https://jonathandduncan.github.io/QuickSignEditor/signmaker/#?ui=en > > > And click on QuickSignEditor, > > > > > > You can change the size of the symbols. It uses the styling portion of the > FSW that Steve and I created together. > > > > > Use minus in the circle button. > > > > > I'm don't know if any of the other editors can change the symbol size or not. > > > For some reason, the symbol styling isn't coming across to the version of > SignMaker I have it hosted in. > > > So the technology is there, it's probably just a matter of adding a few more > control to the editors for you to actually be able to do it and save it in > SignPuddle. > > > Steve, what is your take on this subject? > > > Regards, > > > Jonathan > > > > > > > On 4/16/2021 8:31 AM, Adam Frost wrote: > > >> Thank you Cherie and André for your suggestions. >> >> >> >> Cherie, I agree that ³other² team is still in neutral space, only farther >> away, while ³my² team is closer to my chest. While I don¹t see ³my² team as >> actually touching my chest, I can see your suggestion for the touch symbol. >> Do you think that would make more sense than the shoulder line to imply that >> the sign is at or near the chest? >> >> >> >> >> André, your overhead view does make sense as being useful for showing depth, >> but the palm facing seems to be confusing. As you had it written, it means >> the palm is facing up rather than facing the chest. Unless I am wrong, the >> palm facings would would be as the following: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> If changing the view would make depth easier to see, I think using the side >> view would be easier for the palm facings. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> However, I don¹t know if I like changing the viewpoint in everyday writing in >> such rare cases. >> >> >> >> >> However, I did notice that André combined the two scores into one sign to >> show the depth. I think that this would work (without having to change the >> viewpoint at all) only if both numbers are stated together. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I am not sure how I would write the ³other² team¹s score to clearly show the >> depth without the viewpoint change. I do like the idea of having it be >> ³smaller² to show it is farther away, but I¹m not sure if that is practical >> either. (Just a thought, wouldn¹t that just be handled by the font much like >> superscripts and subscripts? This doesn¹t actually ³create² more symbols when >> this is done. HmmŠ) >> >> >> >> >> Adam >> >> >> >>> >>> On Apr 16, 2021, at 3:23 AM, Cherie Wren >>> <000000111c1a7803-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> when I sign two team scores, its usually one nearly touching my chest (my >>> team) and one farther away... but still in neutral space. Perhaps a touch >>> symbol for the nearer "my team"? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thursday, April 15, 2021, 10:39:35 PM EDT, André Thibeault >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Hello Adaame and Val, >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I write this: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> André >>> >>> De : Adam Frost >>> Répondre à : "SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages" >>> >>> Date : Thu, 15 Apr 2021 18:40:47 -0700 >>> À : >>> Objet : Re: Placement of Signs in Space >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I thought I recall something about the sizing being used for depth, but I >>> don¹t think that it would be necessary for everyday writing. Like I said, >>> this situation rarely comes up for me. ;-) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Here is a screen capture of what I wrote. It is talking about two baseball >>> teams: The Nationals and the Diamondbacks. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Notice the last two signs are supposed to have the depth. I feel that the >>> shoulder line shows the number being closer to the body, but the other >>> number doesn¹t have the concept of being away from the body as it is >>> written. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> As for the concepts of ³teams², ASL makes use of placing concepts in >>> specific locations all the time. It isn¹t limited to names of teams. That is >>> the reason the lanes work so well for this. However, it is common for people >>> to have their preferred teams in sports, so that is where the depth comes >>> into play. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Adam >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> On Apr 15, 2021, at 6:17 PM, Valerie Sutton >>>> <0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> SignWriting List >>>> April 15, 2021 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hello everyone on the SignWriting List, and thank you for this message, >>>> Adam ;-) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Of course this sounds like a very useful way to write ³teams² in sign >>>> language, but can you show us written examples in SignWriting? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> And since I am not a teacher of a classroom of ASL signers, maybe you could >>>> explain to me (and all of us) - what do you mean by ³teams²? Is it for >>>> writing some kind of a game in ASL? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> But to answer your question - the Lanes show us spatial comparisons and >>>> weight-shifting to the ³right of center² and to the ³left of center². They >>>> are invaluable for writing spatial comparisons in sign languages. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Technically there is a Lane that is ³far in front² and one that is ³close >>>> to the chest² - and one that is neutral in signing space - but over time we >>>> started to write those differences in ³depth² with Movement Symbols. We >>>> actually DID have a way to write ³depth² with hand symbols years ago, in >>>> the 1980s. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> This was a technique that really worked in the early days of SignWriting, >>>> when we were writing sign language by hand with ink pens. There were 3 >>>> sizes of hand symbols - the normal size we use everyday is the ³middle >>>> neutral space², the smaller version of the symbol means ³far away from the >>>> chest² and the larger symbol means closer to the chest. This is based on >>>> art perspectives. Further away is always smaller. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I have an article about this somewhere - I will try to find it and post it >>>> later. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> But, as time went by, it seemed like too much information that was not >>>> necessary for everyday writing, and for computer symbol sets, it was a real >>>> problem because it would double or triple the amount of symbols so the idea >>>> of "far being smaller" and ³close being larger² was ignored and we have one >>>> set of symbols at one size for everything. The ISWA 2010 is large enough! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> So how do we see ³depth² in everyday writing? Movement Symbols and some >>>> standardized spellings have helped. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> But now - Adam - please post some SignWriting showing us what you have >>>> written - many thanks! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Val ;-) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ---------- >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Apr 15, 2021, at 1:22 PM, Adam Frost wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I was doing some writing in SignWriting and came across an issue that I >>>>> never really thought of in the past. In ASL, scores can be done by placing >>>>> the teams in a location and then giving the numbers of the score in that >>>>> location. For example, I can have one team on the right and another on the >>>>> left. If I sign 4 on the right and then 5 on the left, it clearly says who >>>>> has what score. This is easily done using the lanes in SignWriting. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The issue came into play when it was giving scores for ³my team² vs ³your >>>>> team². If I signed 4 near my chest and then 5 away from me, it would means >>>>> ³I have 4 and you have 5.² When I tried to write this, I wrote the >>>>> shoulder line over 4 and wrote 5 as I do normally. This didn¹t really seem >>>>> like an issue to me until I had a friend asked me how I knew that 5 was >>>>> signed away from my body rather than just in the neutral location when >>>>> signing 5 on its own. I had said I just assumed it, but that got me >>>>> thinking if there was a simple way to write it so that it would be clear >>>>> and didn¹t have to be assumed. Is there? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Adam >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ____________ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ________________________________________________ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>>> >>>> >>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>>> >>>> >>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page >>>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>>> >>>> >>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages >>>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________________________ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>> >>> >>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>> >>> >>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>> >>> >>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page >>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>> >>> >>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages >>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >>> >>> ________________________________________________ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>> >>> >>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>> >>> >>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>> >>> >>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page >>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>> >>> >>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages >>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________________________ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>> >>> >>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>> >>> >>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>> >>> >>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page >>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>> >>> >>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages >>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1>> 2021-04-15 at 6.32.37 PM.png> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> ________________________________________________ >> >> >> >> >> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >> >> >> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >> >> >> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >> >> >> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page >> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >> >> >> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages >> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >> > ________________________________________________ > > > > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > > > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > > > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page > http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > > > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages > http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: baglbilanghogejj.png Type: image/png Size: 5093 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: gjpoiddbedboknkh.png Type: image/png Size: 1375 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: pekkdjpadhklhcfe.png Type: image/png Size: 54904 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: babilhopiflhdnaa.png Type: image/png Size: 9368 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2021-04-16 at 7.20.40 AM.png Type: image/png Size: 10281 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2021-04-16 at 7.22.39 AM.png Type: image/png Size: 11101 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2021-04-16 at 7.25.31 AM.png Type: image/png Size: 6692 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: namesign.png Type: image/png Size: 440 bytes Desc: not available URL: From 0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU Fri Apr 16 13:57:53 2021 From: 0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU (Valerie Sutton) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 10:57:53 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: SignWriting List April 16, 2021 Hello Andre and Adam - Thanks to you both for posting examples in SignWriting. Andre - it has been a long time since we have communicated. I appreciate your suggestion writing with the Top View of the Head - that certainly shows “depth” well. And Adam - your writing with Lanes also works for me - both writings seem readable. But I would not have thought of the Shoulder Line to mean that the hand was necessarily closer to my chest or not, unless there was a contact symbol with the chest. I suppose an added Surface Symbol might give some information, but does the depth really matter? If this is a research project where you really have to be accurate and it does matter, then using the Top View of the Head would be the answer, but I suspect the way you wrote it in Lanes is giving a Spatial Comparison enough that it is readable in Lanes… I loved the smaller and larger hands to show “depth” and I see that there are some solutions by some of the messages posted to the List - I am reading each email one by one - maybe software can do it after all! Those are my thoughts anyway - So great that you wrote to the List about this, Adam - Nice to have the List active again - Val ;-) ---------- > On Apr 15, 2021, at 7:39 PM, André Thibeault wrote: > > Hello Adaame and Val, > > I write this: > > > > Best regards, > > André > De : Adam Frost > > Répondre à : "SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages" > > Date : Thu, 15 Apr 2021 18:40:47 -0700 > À : > > Objet : Re: Placement of Signs in Space > > I thought I recall something about the sizing being used for depth, but I don’t think that it would be necessary for everyday writing. Like I said, this situation rarely comes up for me. ;-) > > Here is a screen capture of what I wrote. It is talking about two baseball teams: The Nationals and the Diamondbacks. > > > > Notice the last two signs are supposed to have the depth. I feel that the shoulder line shows the number being closer to the body, but the other number doesn’t have the concept of being away from the body as it is written. > > As for the concepts of “teams”, ASL makes use of placing concepts in specific locations all the time. It isn’t limited to names of teams. That is the reason the lanes work so well for this. However, it is common for people to have their preferred teams in sports, so that is where the depth comes into play. > > > Adam > >> On Apr 15, 2021, at 6:17 PM, Valerie Sutton <0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU > wrote: >> >> SignWriting List >> April 15, 2021 >> >> Hello everyone on the SignWriting List, and thank you for this message, Adam ;-) >> >> Of course this sounds like a very useful way to write “teams” in sign language, but can you show us written examples in SignWriting? >> >> And since I am not a teacher of a classroom of ASL signers, maybe you could explain to me (and all of us) - what do you mean by “teams”? Is it for writing some kind of a game in ASL? >> >> But to answer your question - the Lanes show us spatial comparisons and weight-shifting to the “right of center” and to the “left of center”. They are invaluable for writing spatial comparisons in sign languages. >> >> Technically there is a Lane that is “far in front” and one that is “close to the chest” - and one that is neutral in signing space - but over time we started to write those differences in “depth” with Movement Symbols. We actually DID have a way to write “depth” with hand symbols years ago, in the 1980s. >> >> This was a technique that really worked in the early days of SignWriting, when we were writing sign language by hand with ink pens. There were 3 sizes of hand symbols - the normal size we use everyday is the “middle neutral space”, the smaller version of the symbol means “far away from the chest” and the larger symbol means closer to the chest. This is based on art perspectives. Further away is always smaller. >> >> I have an article about this somewhere - I will try to find it and post it later. >> >> But, as time went by, it seemed like too much information that was not necessary for everyday writing, and for computer symbol sets, it was a real problem because it would double or triple the amount of symbols so the idea of "far being smaller" and “close being larger” was ignored and we have one set of symbols at one size for everything. The ISWA 2010 is large enough! >> >> So how do we see “depth” in everyday writing? Movement Symbols and some standardized spellings have helped. >> >> But now - Adam - please post some SignWriting showing us what you have written - many thanks! >> >> Val ;-) >> >> ---------- >> >> >> >>> On Apr 15, 2021, at 1:22 PM, Adam Frost > wrote: >>> >>> I was doing some writing in SignWriting and came across an issue that I never really thought of in the past. In ASL, scores can be done by placing the teams in a location and then giving the numbers of the score in that location. For example, I can have one team on the right and another on the left. If I sign 4 on the right and then 5 on the left, it clearly says who has what score. This is easily done using the lanes in SignWriting. >>> >>> The issue came into play when it was giving scores for “my team” vs “your team”. If I signed 4 near my chest and then 5 away from me, it would means “I have 4 and you have 5.” When I tried to write this, I wrote the shoulder line over 4 and wrote 5 as I do normally. This didn’t really seem like an issue to me until I had a friend asked me how I knew that 5 was signed away from my body rather than just in the neutral location when signing 5 on its own. I had said I just assumed it, but that got me thinking if there was a simple way to write it so that it would be clear and didn’t have to be assumed. Is there? >>> >>> >>> Adam >>> >> >> ____________ >> >> ________________________________________________ >> >> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2021-04-15 at 6.32.37 PM.png Type: image/png Size: 47883 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: namesign.png Type: image/png Size: 440 bytes Desc: not available URL: From atg at VIDEOTRON.CA Fri Apr 16 14:12:19 2021 From: atg at VIDEOTRON.CA (=?ISO-8859-1?B?QW5kcuk=?= Thibeault) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 14:12:19 -0400 Subject: [Sw-l] [SPAM] Re: Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello Adam, I did not get your email from SwignWriting list. But, I only got one email from Steve. I write this. I believe that the palm is facing the chest. But you believe that the palm is facing up. I learn about it. I believe that the palm is facing up below. I think that many signwritters believe that the palm is facing up above. I hope that I will get other emails from SignWring list. Best regards, André De : Stephen Slevinski Répondre à : "SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages" Date : Fri, 16 Apr 2021 11:50:48 -0500 À : Objet : Re: [SPAM] Re: Placement of Signs in Space Hi Jonathan, SignMaker 2017 supports the styling string, but it is a manual entry process and only for creating PNG or SVG output images. http://signbank.org/signmaker/#?ui=en This example uses a styling string of "--Z01,0.5Z03,2" Z01,0.5 = Zoom for first symbol of 0.5. Z03,2 = Zoom for third symbol of 2 This topic gets into the difference between plain-text and rich-text. Oversimplified, plain-text focuses on meaning while rich-text adds formatting. If you take away formatting from rich-text, you should be left with understandable plain-text. I believe a sign should be understandable without differences in symbol size. -Steve On 4/16/21 10:02 AM, Jonathan Duncan wrote: > > > Hi Adam, > > > Actually it is presently possible to write smaller hand shapes with the > existing fonts. > > > If you go to > > > > https://jonathandduncan.github.io/QuickSignEditor/signmaker/#?ui=en > > > And click on QuickSignEditor, > > > > > > You can change the size of the symbols. It uses the styling portion of the > FSW that Steve and I created together. > > > > > Use minus in the circle button. > > > > > I'm don't know if any of the other editors can change the symbol size or not. > > > For some reason, the symbol styling isn't coming across to the version of > SignMaker I have it hosted in. > > > So the technology is there, it's probably just a matter of adding a few more > control to the editors for you to actually be able to do it and save it in > SignPuddle. > > > Steve, what is your take on this subject? > > > Regards, > > > Jonathan > > > > > > > On 4/16/2021 8:31 AM, Adam Frost wrote: > > >> Thank you Cherie and André for your suggestions. >> >> >> >> Cherie, I agree that ³other² team is still in neutral space, only farther >> away, while ³my² team is closer to my chest. While I don¹t see ³my² team as >> actually touching my chest, I can see your suggestion for the touch symbol. >> Do you think that would make more sense than the shoulder line to imply that >> the sign is at or near the chest? >> >> >> >> >> André, your overhead view does make sense as being useful for showing depth, >> but the palm facing seems to be confusing. As you had it written, it means >> the palm is facing up rather than facing the chest. Unless I am wrong, the >> palm facings would would be as the following: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> If changing the view would make depth easier to see, I think using the side >> view would be easier for the palm facings. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> However, I don¹t know if I like changing the viewpoint in everyday writing in >> such rare cases. >> >> >> >> >> However, I did notice that André combined the two scores into one sign to >> show the depth. I think that this would work (without having to change the >> viewpoint at all) only if both numbers are stated together. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I am not sure how I would write the ³other² team¹s score to clearly show the >> depth without the viewpoint change. I do like the idea of having it be >> ³smaller² to show it is farther away, but I¹m not sure if that is practical >> either. (Just a thought, wouldn¹t that just be handled by the font much like >> superscripts and subscripts? This doesn¹t actually ³create² more symbols when >> this is done. HmmŠ) >> >> >> >> >> Adam >> >> >> >>> >>> On Apr 16, 2021, at 3:23 AM, Cherie Wren >>> <000000111c1a7803-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> when I sign two team scores, its usually one nearly touching my chest (my >>> team) and one farther away... but still in neutral space. Perhaps a touch >>> symbol for the nearer "my team"? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thursday, April 15, 2021, 10:39:35 PM EDT, André Thibeault >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Hello Adaame and Val, >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I write this: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> André >>> >>> De : Adam Frost >>> Répondre à : "SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages" >>> >>> Date : Thu, 15 Apr 2021 18:40:47 -0700 >>> À : >>> Objet : Re: Placement of Signs in Space >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I thought I recall something about the sizing being used for depth, but I >>> don¹t think that it would be necessary for everyday writing. Like I said, >>> this situation rarely comes up for me. ;-) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Here is a screen capture of what I wrote. It is talking about two baseball >>> teams: The Nationals and the Diamondbacks. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Notice the last two signs are supposed to have the depth. I feel that the >>> shoulder line shows the number being closer to the body, but the other >>> number doesn¹t have the concept of being away from the body as it is >>> written. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> As for the concepts of ³teams², ASL makes use of placing concepts in >>> specific locations all the time. It isn¹t limited to names of teams. That is >>> the reason the lanes work so well for this. However, it is common for people >>> to have their preferred teams in sports, so that is where the depth comes >>> into play. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Adam >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> On Apr 15, 2021, at 6:17 PM, Valerie Sutton >>>> <0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> SignWriting List >>>> April 15, 2021 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hello everyone on the SignWriting List, and thank you for this message, >>>> Adam ;-) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Of course this sounds like a very useful way to write ³teams² in sign >>>> language, but can you show us written examples in SignWriting? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> And since I am not a teacher of a classroom of ASL signers, maybe you could >>>> explain to me (and all of us) - what do you mean by ³teams²? Is it for >>>> writing some kind of a game in ASL? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> But to answer your question - the Lanes show us spatial comparisons and >>>> weight-shifting to the ³right of center² and to the ³left of center². They >>>> are invaluable for writing spatial comparisons in sign languages. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Technically there is a Lane that is ³far in front² and one that is ³close >>>> to the chest² - and one that is neutral in signing space - but over time we >>>> started to write those differences in ³depth² with Movement Symbols. We >>>> actually DID have a way to write ³depth² with hand symbols years ago, in >>>> the 1980s. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> This was a technique that really worked in the early days of SignWriting, >>>> when we were writing sign language by hand with ink pens. There were 3 >>>> sizes of hand symbols - the normal size we use everyday is the ³middle >>>> neutral space², the smaller version of the symbol means ³far away from the >>>> chest² and the larger symbol means closer to the chest. This is based on >>>> art perspectives. Further away is always smaller. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I have an article about this somewhere - I will try to find it and post it >>>> later. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> But, as time went by, it seemed like too much information that was not >>>> necessary for everyday writing, and for computer symbol sets, it was a real >>>> problem because it would double or triple the amount of symbols so the idea >>>> of "far being smaller" and ³close being larger² was ignored and we have one >>>> set of symbols at one size for everything. The ISWA 2010 is large enough! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> So how do we see ³depth² in everyday writing? Movement Symbols and some >>>> standardized spellings have helped. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> But now - Adam - please post some SignWriting showing us what you have >>>> written - many thanks! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Val ;-) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ---------- >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Apr 15, 2021, at 1:22 PM, Adam Frost wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I was doing some writing in SignWriting and came across an issue that I >>>>> never really thought of in the past. In ASL, scores can be done by placing >>>>> the teams in a location and then giving the numbers of the score in that >>>>> location. For example, I can have one team on the right and another on the >>>>> left. If I sign 4 on the right and then 5 on the left, it clearly says who >>>>> has what score. This is easily done using the lanes in SignWriting. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The issue came into play when it was giving scores for ³my team² vs ³your >>>>> team². If I signed 4 near my chest and then 5 away from me, it would means >>>>> ³I have 4 and you have 5.² When I tried to write this, I wrote the >>>>> shoulder line over 4 and wrote 5 as I do normally. This didn¹t really seem >>>>> like an issue to me until I had a friend asked me how I knew that 5 was >>>>> signed away from my body rather than just in the neutral location when >>>>> signing 5 on its own. I had said I just assumed it, but that got me >>>>> thinking if there was a simple way to write it so that it would be clear >>>>> and didn¹t have to be assumed. Is there? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Adam >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ____________ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ________________________________________________ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>>> >>>> >>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>>> >>>> >>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page >>>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>>> >>>> >>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages >>>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________________________ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>> >>> >>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>> >>> >>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>> >>> >>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page >>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>> >>> >>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages >>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >>> >>> ________________________________________________ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>> >>> >>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>> >>> >>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>> >>> >>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page >>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>> >>> >>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages >>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________________________ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>> >>> >>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>> >>> >>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>> >>> >>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page >>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>> >>> >>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages >>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1>> 2021-04-15 at 6.32.37 PM.png> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> ________________________________________________ >> >> >> >> >> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >> >> >> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >> >> >> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >> >> >> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page >> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >> >> >> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages >> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >> > ________________________________________________ > > > > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > > > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > > > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page > http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > > > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages > http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: baglbilanghogejj.png Type: image/png Size: 5093 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: gjpoiddbedboknkh.png Type: image/png Size: 1375 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: pekkdjpadhklhcfe.png Type: image/png Size: 54904 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: babilhopiflhdnaa.png Type: image/png Size: 9368 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2021-04-16 at 7.20.40 AM.png Type: image/png Size: 10281 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2021-04-16 at 7.22.39 AM.png Type: image/png Size: 11101 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2021-04-16 at 7.25.31 AM.png Type: image/png Size: 6692 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: namesign.png Type: image/png Size: 440 bytes Desc: not available URL: From icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM Fri Apr 16 14:14:47 2021 From: icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM (Adam Frost) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 11:14:47 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2FC8FC1F-461B-4ED2-B726-8A332F4BD08A@gmail.com> The lanes work great in most cases since the spatial comparison is usually on the sides. However, I have ran into an issue when the spatial comparison uses depth to imply me and you. This isn’t usage of depth isn’t used often, but it is necessary at times to convey the correct meaning. So I guess the top view is the way to go when depth must be shown. Does that mean that the palm facing should change accordingly to keep with the view change? If so, how would what I used in my example be written? Adam > On Apr 16, 2021, at 10:57 AM, Valerie Sutton <0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU> wrote: > > SignWriting List > April 16, 2021 > > Hello Andre and Adam - > > Thanks to you both for posting examples in SignWriting. > > Andre - it has been a long time since we have communicated. I appreciate your suggestion writing with the Top View of the Head - that certainly shows “depth” well. > > And Adam - your writing with Lanes also works for me - both writings seem readable. But I would not have thought of the Shoulder Line to mean that the hand was necessarily closer to my chest or not, unless there was a contact symbol with the chest. I suppose an added Surface Symbol might give some information, but does the depth really matter? If this is a research project where you really have to be accurate and it does matter, then using the Top View of the Head would be the answer, but I suspect the way you wrote it in Lanes is giving a Spatial Comparison enough that it is readable in Lanes… > > I loved the smaller and larger hands to show “depth” and I see that there are some solutions by some of the messages posted to the List - I am reading each email one by one - maybe software can do it after all! > > Those are my thoughts anyway - So great that you wrote to the List about this, Adam - > > Nice to have the List active again - > > Val ;-) > > > ---------- > > > >> On Apr 15, 2021, at 7:39 PM, André Thibeault > wrote: >> >> Hello Adaame and Val, >> >> I write this: >> >> >> >> Best regards, >> >> André >> De : Adam Frost > >> Répondre à : "SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages" > >> Date : Thu, 15 Apr 2021 18:40:47 -0700 >> À : > >> Objet : Re: Placement of Signs in Space >> >> I thought I recall something about the sizing being used for depth, but I don’t think that it would be necessary for everyday writing. Like I said, this situation rarely comes up for me. ;-) >> >> Here is a screen capture of what I wrote. It is talking about two baseball teams: The Nationals and the Diamondbacks. >> >> >> >> Notice the last two signs are supposed to have the depth. I feel that the shoulder line shows the number being closer to the body, but the other number doesn’t have the concept of being away from the body as it is written. >> >> As for the concepts of “teams”, ASL makes use of placing concepts in specific locations all the time. It isn’t limited to names of teams. That is the reason the lanes work so well for this. However, it is common for people to have their preferred teams in sports, so that is where the depth comes into play. >> >> >> Adam >> >>> On Apr 15, 2021, at 6:17 PM, Valerie Sutton <0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU > wrote: >>> >>> SignWriting List >>> April 15, 2021 >>> >>> Hello everyone on the SignWriting List, and thank you for this message, Adam ;-) >>> >>> Of course this sounds like a very useful way to write “teams” in sign language, but can you show us written examples in SignWriting? >>> >>> And since I am not a teacher of a classroom of ASL signers, maybe you could explain to me (and all of us) - what do you mean by “teams”? Is it for writing some kind of a game in ASL? >>> >>> But to answer your question - the Lanes show us spatial comparisons and weight-shifting to the “right of center” and to the “left of center”. They are invaluable for writing spatial comparisons in sign languages. >>> >>> Technically there is a Lane that is “far in front” and one that is “close to the chest” - and one that is neutral in signing space - but over time we started to write those differences in “depth” with Movement Symbols. We actually DID have a way to write “depth” with hand symbols years ago, in the 1980s. >>> >>> This was a technique that really worked in the early days of SignWriting, when we were writing sign language by hand with ink pens. There were 3 sizes of hand symbols - the normal size we use everyday is the “middle neutral space”, the smaller version of the symbol means “far away from the chest” and the larger symbol means closer to the chest. This is based on art perspectives. Further away is always smaller. >>> >>> I have an article about this somewhere - I will try to find it and post it later. >>> >>> But, as time went by, it seemed like too much information that was not necessary for everyday writing, and for computer symbol sets, it was a real problem because it would double or triple the amount of symbols so the idea of "far being smaller" and “close being larger” was ignored and we have one set of symbols at one size for everything. The ISWA 2010 is large enough! >>> >>> So how do we see “depth” in everyday writing? Movement Symbols and some standardized spellings have helped. >>> >>> But now - Adam - please post some SignWriting showing us what you have written - many thanks! >>> >>> Val ;-) >>> >>> ---------- >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Apr 15, 2021, at 1:22 PM, Adam Frost > wrote: >>>> >>>> I was doing some writing in SignWriting and came across an issue that I never really thought of in the past. In ASL, scores can be done by placing the teams in a location and then giving the numbers of the score in that location. For example, I can have one team on the right and another on the left. If I sign 4 on the right and then 5 on the left, it clearly says who has what score. This is easily done using the lanes in SignWriting. >>>> >>>> The issue came into play when it was giving scores for “my team” vs “your team”. If I signed 4 near my chest and then 5 away from me, it would means “I have 4 and you have 5.” When I tried to write this, I wrote the shoulder line over 4 and wrote 5 as I do normally. This didn’t really seem like an issue to me until I had a friend asked me how I knew that 5 was signed away from my body rather than just in the neutral location when signing 5 on its own. I had said I just assumed it, but that got me thinking if there was a simple way to write it so that it would be clear and didn’t have to be assumed. Is there? >>>> >>>> >>>> Adam >>>> >>> >>> ____________ >>> >>> ________________________________________________ >>> >>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >> ________________________________________________ >> >> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ >> >> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: namesign.png Type: image/png Size: 440 bytes Desc: not available URL: From 0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU Fri Apr 16 14:03:29 2021 From: 0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU (Valerie Sutton) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 11:03:29 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] [SPAM] Re: Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <15B12B43-D2E5-4C97-AA46-0B7B86345606@mac.com> SignWriting List April 16, 2021 Hello Andre and everyone! The reason you have not been getting emails from the SignWriting List lately, is, most likely, because there haven’t been any messages until yesterday, when Adam posted, and so did others. I look forward to reading and answering each one now. I have been “inactive” online for awhile, but I am back now, and I am grateful to see how many people are using SignWriting. It is gratifying, and also very interesting. So Andre, if you got this message, then I think you are getting the messages from the SignWriting List. I will write to you privately in a few days to be sure you got this one - ha! Hope you and your family are well and that your projects are many ;-) Val ;-) ------------ > On Apr 16, 2021, at 10:31 AM, André Thibeault wrote: > > Hello Val, > > I notice that I did not get many emails from SignWriting list. I do not understand why I do not receive them? > > Best regards, > > André > > De : Stephen Slevinski > > Répondre à : "SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages" > > Date : Fri, 16 Apr 2021 11:50:48 -0500 > À : > > Objet : Re: [SPAM] Re: Placement of Signs in Space > > Hi Jonathan, > > SignMaker 2017 supports the styling string, but it is a manual entry process and only for creating PNG or SVG output images. > http://signbank.org/signmaker/#?ui=en > > > > This example uses a styling string of "--Z01,0.5Z03,2" > Z01,0.5 = Zoom for first symbol of 0.5. > Z03,2 = Zoom for third symbol of 2 > > This topic gets into the difference between plain-text and rich-text. > Oversimplified, plain-text focuses on meaning while rich-text adds formatting. > > If you take away formatting from rich-text, you should be left with understandable plain-text. > > I believe a sign should be understandable without differences in symbol size. > > -Steve > > > > > On 4/16/21 10:02 AM, Jonathan Duncan wrote: >> Hi Adam, >> Actually it is presently possible to write smaller hand shapes with the existing fonts. >> If you go to >> https://jonathandduncan.github.io/QuickSignEditor/signmaker/#?ui=en >> And click on QuickSignEditor, >> >> You can change the size of the symbols. It uses the styling portion of the FSW that Steve and I created together. >> >> Use minus in the circle button. >> >> I'm don't know if any of the other editors can change the symbol size or not. >> For some reason, the symbol styling isn't coming across to the version of SignMaker I have it hosted in. >> So the technology is there, it's probably just a matter of adding a few more control to the editors for you to actually be able to do it and save it in SignPuddle. >> Steve, what is your take on this subject? >> Regards, >> Jonathan >> >> On 4/16/2021 8:31 AM, Adam Frost wrote: >>> Thank you Cherie and André for your suggestions. >>> >>> Cherie, I agree that “other” team is still in neutral space, only farther away, while “my” team is closer to my chest. While I don’t see “my” team as actually touching my chest, I can see your suggestion for the touch symbol. Do you think that would make more sense than the shoulder line to imply that the sign is at or near the chest? >>> >>> André, your overhead view does make sense as being useful for showing depth, but the palm facing seems to be confusing. As you had it written, it means the palm is facing up rather than facing the chest. Unless I am wrong, the palm facings would would be as the following: >>> >>> >>> >>> If changing the view would make depth easier to see, I think using the side view would be easier for the palm facings. >>> >>> >>> >>> However, I don’t know if I like changing the viewpoint in everyday writing in such rare cases. >>> >>> However, I did notice that André combined the two scores into one sign to show the depth. I think that this would work (without having to change the viewpoint at all) only if both numbers are stated together. >>> >>> >>> >>> I am not sure how I would write the “other” team’s score to clearly show the depth without the viewpoint change. I do like the idea of having it be “smaller” to show it is farther away, but I’m not sure if that is practical either. (Just a thought, wouldn’t that just be handled by the font much like superscripts and subscripts? This doesn’t actually “create” more symbols when this is done. Hmm…) >>> >>> >>> Adam >>> >>>> On Apr 16, 2021, at 3:23 AM, Cherie Wren <000000111c1a7803-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU > wrote: >>>> >>>> when I sign two team scores, its usually one nearly touching my chest (my team) and one farther away... but still in neutral space. Perhaps a touch symbol for the nearer "my team"? >>>> >>>> On Thursday, April 15, 2021, 10:39:35 PM EDT, André Thibeault > wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Hello Adaame and Val, >>>> >>>> I write this: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> >>>> André >>>> De : Adam Frost > >>>> Répondre à : "SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages" > >>>> Date : Thu, 15 Apr 2021 18:40:47 -0700 >>>> À : > >>>> Objet : Re: Placement of Signs in Space >>>> >>>> I thought I recall something about the sizing being used for depth, but I don’t think that it would be necessary for everyday writing. Like I said, this situation rarely comes up for me. ;-) >>>> >>>> Here is a screen capture of what I wrote. It is talking about two baseball teams: The Nationals and the Diamondbacks. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Notice the last two signs are supposed to have the depth. I feel that the shoulder line shows the number being closer to the body, but the other number doesn’t have the concept of being away from the body as it is written. >>>> >>>> As for the concepts of “teams”, ASL makes use of placing concepts in specific locations all the time. It isn’t limited to names of teams. That is the reason the lanes work so well for this. However, it is common for people to have their preferred teams in sports, so that is where the depth comes into play. >>>> >>>> >>>> Adam >>>> >>>>> On Apr 15, 2021, at 6:17 PM, Valerie Sutton <0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> SignWriting List >>>>> April 15, 2021 >>>>> >>>>> Hello everyone on the SignWriting List, and thank you for this message, Adam ;-) >>>>> >>>>> Of course this sounds like a very useful way to write “teams” in sign language, but can you show us written examples in SignWriting? >>>>> >>>>> And since I am not a teacher of a classroom of ASL signers, maybe you could explain to me (and all of us) - what do you mean by “teams”? Is it for writing some kind of a game in ASL? >>>>> >>>>> But to answer your question - the Lanes show us spatial comparisons and weight-shifting to the “right of center” and to the “left of center”. They are invaluable for writing spatial comparisons in sign languages. >>>>> >>>>> Technically there is a Lane that is “far in front” and one that is “close to the chest” - and one that is neutral in signing space - but over time we started to write those differences in “depth” with Movement Symbols. We actually DID have a way to write “depth” with hand symbols years ago, in the 1980s. >>>>> >>>>> This was a technique that really worked in the early days of SignWriting, when we were writing sign language by hand with ink pens. There were 3 sizes of hand symbols - the normal size we use everyday is the “middle neutral space”, the smaller version of the symbol means “far away from the chest” and the larger symbol means closer to the chest. This is based on art perspectives. Further away is always smaller. >>>>> >>>>> I have an article about this somewhere - I will try to find it and post it later. >>>>> >>>>> But, as time went by, it seemed like too much information that was not necessary for everyday writing, and for computer symbol sets, it was a real problem because it would double or triple the amount of symbols so the idea of "far being smaller" and “close being larger” was ignored and we have one set of symbols at one size for everything. The ISWA 2010 is large enough! >>>>> >>>>> So how do we see “depth” in everyday writing? Movement Symbols and some standardized spellings have helped. >>>>> >>>>> But now - Adam - please post some SignWriting showing us what you have written - many thanks! >>>>> >>>>> Val ;-) >>>>> >>>>> ---------- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Apr 15, 2021, at 1:22 PM, Adam Frost > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I was doing some writing in SignWriting and came across an issue that I never really thought of in the past. In ASL, scores can be done by placing the teams in a location and then giving the numbers of the score in that location. For example, I can have one team on the right and another on the left. If I sign 4 on the right and then 5 on the left, it clearly says who has what score. This is easily done using the lanes in SignWriting. >>>>>> >>>>>> The issue came into play when it was giving scores for “my team” vs “your team”. If I signed 4 near my chest and then 5 away from me, it would means “I have 4 and you have 5.” When I tried to write this, I wrote the shoulder line over 4 and wrote 5 as I do normally. This didn’t really seem like an issue to me until I had a friend asked me how I knew that 5 was signed away from my body rather than just in the neutral location when signing 5 on its own. I had said I just assumed it, but that got me thinking if there was a simple way to write it so that it would be clear and didn’t have to be assumed. Is there? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Adam >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ____________ >>>>> >>>>> ________________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >>>> ________________________________________________ >>>> >>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ >>>> >>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ >>>> >>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >>> >>> ________________________________________________ >>> >>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ >> >> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: Screen Shot 2021-04-16 at 7.22.39 AM.png Type: image/png Size: 11101 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2021-04-16 at 7.25.31 AM.png Type: image/png Size: 6692 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: namesign.png Type: image/png Size: 440 bytes Desc: not available URL: From icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM Fri Apr 16 14:18:03 2021 From: icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM (Adam Frost) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 11:18:03 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] [SPAM] Re: Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You didn’t get me email? Odd. Maybe it went into spam? You can always check the archive online to be sure. http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist I could be wrong about the palm facing from the top view. That is what I was checking to be sure. ;-) Adam > On Apr 16, 2021, at 11:12 AM, André Thibeault wrote: > > Hello Adam, > > I did not get your email from SwignWriting list. But, I only got one email from Steve. > > I write this. I believe that the palm is facing the chest. But you believe that the palm is facing up. I learn about it. > > > > > I believe that the palm is facing up below. > > > > I think that many signwritters believe that the palm is facing up above. > > I hope that I will get other emails from SignWring list. > > Best regards, > > André > > De : Stephen Slevinski > > Répondre à : "SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages" > > Date : Fri, 16 Apr 2021 11:50:48 -0500 > À : > > Objet : Re: [SPAM] Re: Placement of Signs in Space > > Hi Jonathan, > > SignMaker 2017 supports the styling string, but it is a manual entry process and only for creating PNG or SVG output images. > http://signbank.org/signmaker/#?ui=en > > > > This example uses a styling string of "--Z01,0.5Z03,2" > Z01,0.5 = Zoom for first symbol of 0.5. > Z03,2 = Zoom for third symbol of 2 > > This topic gets into the difference between plain-text and rich-text. > Oversimplified, plain-text focuses on meaning while rich-text adds formatting. > > If you take away formatting from rich-text, you should be left with understandable plain-text. > > I believe a sign should be understandable without differences in symbol size. > > -Steve > > > > > On 4/16/21 10:02 AM, Jonathan Duncan wrote: >> Hi Adam, >> Actually it is presently possible to write smaller hand shapes with the existing fonts. >> If you go to >> https://jonathandduncan.github.io/QuickSignEditor/signmaker/#?ui=en >> And click on QuickSignEditor, >> >> You can change the size of the symbols. It uses the styling portion of the FSW that Steve and I created together. >> >> Use minus in the circle button. >> >> I'm don't know if any of the other editors can change the symbol size or not. >> For some reason, the symbol styling isn't coming across to the version of SignMaker I have it hosted in. >> So the technology is there, it's probably just a matter of adding a few more control to the editors for you to actually be able to do it and save it in SignPuddle. >> Steve, what is your take on this subject? >> Regards, >> Jonathan >> >> On 4/16/2021 8:31 AM, Adam Frost wrote: >>> Thank you Cherie and André for your suggestions. >>> >>> Cherie, I agree that “other” team is still in neutral space, only farther away, while “my” team is closer to my chest. While I don’t see “my” team as actually touching my chest, I can see your suggestion for the touch symbol. Do you think that would make more sense than the shoulder line to imply that the sign is at or near the chest? >>> >>> André, your overhead view does make sense as being useful for showing depth, but the palm facing seems to be confusing. As you had it written, it means the palm is facing up rather than facing the chest. Unless I am wrong, the palm facings would would be as the following: >>> >>> >>> >>> If changing the view would make depth easier to see, I think using the side view would be easier for the palm facings. >>> >>> >>> >>> However, I don’t know if I like changing the viewpoint in everyday writing in such rare cases. >>> >>> However, I did notice that André combined the two scores into one sign to show the depth. I think that this would work (without having to change the viewpoint at all) only if both numbers are stated together. >>> >>> >>> >>> I am not sure how I would write the “other” team’s score to clearly show the depth without the viewpoint change. I do like the idea of having it be “smaller” to show it is farther away, but I’m not sure if that is practical either. (Just a thought, wouldn’t that just be handled by the font much like superscripts and subscripts? This doesn’t actually “create” more symbols when this is done. Hmm…) >>> >>> >>> Adam >>> >>>> On Apr 16, 2021, at 3:23 AM, Cherie Wren <000000111c1a7803-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU > wrote: >>>> >>>> when I sign two team scores, its usually one nearly touching my chest (my team) and one farther away... but still in neutral space. Perhaps a touch symbol for the nearer "my team"? >>>> >>>> On Thursday, April 15, 2021, 10:39:35 PM EDT, André Thibeault > wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Hello Adaame and Val, >>>> >>>> I write this: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> >>>> André >>>> De : Adam Frost > >>>> Répondre à : "SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages" > >>>> Date : Thu, 15 Apr 2021 18:40:47 -0700 >>>> À : > >>>> Objet : Re: Placement of Signs in Space >>>> >>>> I thought I recall something about the sizing being used for depth, but I don’t think that it would be necessary for everyday writing. Like I said, this situation rarely comes up for me. ;-) >>>> >>>> Here is a screen capture of what I wrote. It is talking about two baseball teams: The Nationals and the Diamondbacks. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Notice the last two signs are supposed to have the depth. I feel that the shoulder line shows the number being closer to the body, but the other number doesn’t have the concept of being away from the body as it is written. >>>> >>>> As for the concepts of “teams”, ASL makes use of placing concepts in specific locations all the time. It isn’t limited to names of teams. That is the reason the lanes work so well for this. However, it is common for people to have their preferred teams in sports, so that is where the depth comes into play. >>>> >>>> >>>> Adam >>>> >>>>> On Apr 15, 2021, at 6:17 PM, Valerie Sutton <0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> SignWriting List >>>>> April 15, 2021 >>>>> >>>>> Hello everyone on the SignWriting List, and thank you for this message, Adam ;-) >>>>> >>>>> Of course this sounds like a very useful way to write “teams” in sign language, but can you show us written examples in SignWriting? >>>>> >>>>> And since I am not a teacher of a classroom of ASL signers, maybe you could explain to me (and all of us) - what do you mean by “teams”? Is it for writing some kind of a game in ASL? >>>>> >>>>> But to answer your question - the Lanes show us spatial comparisons and weight-shifting to the “right of center” and to the “left of center”. They are invaluable for writing spatial comparisons in sign languages. >>>>> >>>>> Technically there is a Lane that is “far in front” and one that is “close to the chest” - and one that is neutral in signing space - but over time we started to write those differences in “depth” with Movement Symbols. We actually DID have a way to write “depth” with hand symbols years ago, in the 1980s. >>>>> >>>>> This was a technique that really worked in the early days of SignWriting, when we were writing sign language by hand with ink pens. There were 3 sizes of hand symbols - the normal size we use everyday is the “middle neutral space”, the smaller version of the symbol means “far away from the chest” and the larger symbol means closer to the chest. This is based on art perspectives. Further away is always smaller. >>>>> >>>>> I have an article about this somewhere - I will try to find it and post it later. >>>>> >>>>> But, as time went by, it seemed like too much information that was not necessary for everyday writing, and for computer symbol sets, it was a real problem because it would double or triple the amount of symbols so the idea of "far being smaller" and “close being larger” was ignored and we have one set of symbols at one size for everything. The ISWA 2010 is large enough! >>>>> >>>>> So how do we see “depth” in everyday writing? Movement Symbols and some standardized spellings have helped. >>>>> >>>>> But now - Adam - please post some SignWriting showing us what you have written - many thanks! >>>>> >>>>> Val ;-) >>>>> >>>>> ---------- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Apr 15, 2021, at 1:22 PM, Adam Frost > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I was doing some writing in SignWriting and came across an issue that I never really thought of in the past. In ASL, scores can be done by placing the teams in a location and then giving the numbers of the score in that location. For example, I can have one team on the right and another on the left. If I sign 4 on the right and then 5 on the left, it clearly says who has what score. This is easily done using the lanes in SignWriting. >>>>>> >>>>>> The issue came into play when it was giving scores for “my team” vs “your team”. If I signed 4 near my chest and then 5 away from me, it would means “I have 4 and you have 5.” When I tried to write this, I wrote the shoulder line over 4 and wrote 5 as I do normally. This didn’t really seem like an issue to me until I had a friend asked me how I knew that 5 was signed away from my body rather than just in the neutral location when signing 5 on its own. I had said I just assumed it, but that got me thinking if there was a simple way to write it so that it would be clear and didn’t have to be assumed. Is there? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Adam >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ____________ >>>>> >>>>> ________________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >>>> ________________________________________________ >>>> >>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ >>>> >>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ >>>> >>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >>> >>> ________________________________________________ >>> >>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ >> >> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: namesign.png Type: image/png Size: 440 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kaciodelima at GMAIL.COM Fri Apr 16 14:34:23 2021 From: kaciodelima at GMAIL.COM (Kacio de Lima Evangelista) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 15:34:23 -0300 Subject: [Sw-l] Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: <2FC8FC1F-461B-4ED2-B726-8A332F4BD08A@gmail.com> References: <2FC8FC1F-461B-4ED2-B726-8A332F4BD08A@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi! I usually use the upper point of view only when I see that there will be depth confusion or if the signal uses the arm horizontally as a support for the pronunciation. Here is an example: [image: image.png] ("white" in Libras) About decreasing the size of the sign to stand out in the text, I use it as a strategy to emphasize the names of people and places or a specific sign, something similar to the bold and italic font. This is because it helps to quickly identify whether the written sign is a proper name or focus of the topic to be treated. *Atenciosamente,* *Prof. Kácio Evangelista.* Em sex., 16 de abr. de 2021 às 15:15, Adam Frost escreveu: > The lanes work great in most cases since the spatial comparison is usually > on the sides. However, I have ran into an issue when the spatial comparison > uses depth to imply me and you. This isn’t usage of depth isn’t used often, > but it is necessary at times to convey the correct meaning. > > So I guess the top view is the way to go when depth must be shown. Does > that mean that the palm facing should change accordingly to keep with the > view change? If so, how would what I used in my example be written? > > > Adam > > On Apr 16, 2021, at 10:57 AM, Valerie Sutton < > 0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU> wrote: > > SignWriting List > April 16, 2021 > > Hello Andre and Adam - > > Thanks to you both for posting examples in SignWriting. > > Andre - it has been a long time since we have communicated. I appreciate > your suggestion writing with the Top View of the Head - that certainly > shows “depth” well. > > And Adam - your writing with Lanes also works for me - both writings seem > readable. But I would not have thought of the Shoulder Line to mean that > the hand was necessarily closer to my chest or not, unless there was a > contact symbol with the chest. I suppose an added Surface Symbol might give > some information, but does the depth really matter? If this is a research > project where you really have to be accurate and it does matter, then using > the Top View of the Head would be the answer, but I suspect the way you > wrote it in Lanes is giving a Spatial Comparison enough that it is readable > in Lanes… > > I loved the smaller and larger hands to show “depth” and I see that there > are some solutions by some of the messages posted to the List - I am > reading each email one by one - maybe software can do it after all! > > Those are my thoughts anyway - So great that you wrote to the List about > this, Adam - > > Nice to have the List active again - > > Val ;-) > > > ---------- > > > > On Apr 15, 2021, at 7:39 PM, André Thibeault wrote: > > Hello Adaame and Val, > > I write this: > > > Best regards, > > André > De : Adam Frost > Répondre à : "SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages" < > SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU> > Date : Thu, 15 Apr 2021 18:40:47 -0700 > À : > Objet : Re: Placement of Signs in Space > > I thought I recall something about the sizing being used for depth, but I > don’t think that it would be necessary for everyday writing. Like I said, > this situation rarely comes up for me. ;-) > > Here is a screen capture of what I wrote. It is talking about two baseball > teams: The Nationals and the Diamondbacks. > > > > Notice the last two signs are supposed to have the depth. I feel that the > shoulder line shows the number being closer to the body, but the other > number doesn’t have the concept of being away from the body as it is > written. > > As for the concepts of “teams”, ASL makes use of placing concepts in > specific locations all the time. It isn’t limited to names of teams. That > is the reason the lanes work so well for this. However, it is common for > people to have their preferred teams in sports, so that is where the depth > comes into play. > > > Adam > > On Apr 15, 2021, at 6:17 PM, Valerie Sutton < > 0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU> wrote: > > SignWriting List > April 15, 2021 > > Hello everyone on the SignWriting List, and thank you for this message, > Adam ;-) > > Of course this sounds like a very useful way to write “teams” in sign > language, but can you show us written examples in SignWriting? > > And since I am not a teacher of a classroom of ASL signers, maybe you > could explain to me (and all of us) - what do you mean by “teams”? Is it > for writing some kind of a game in ASL? > > But to answer your question - the Lanes show us spatial comparisons and > weight-shifting to the “right of center” and to the “left of center”. They > are invaluable for writing spatial comparisons in sign languages. > > Technically there is a Lane that is “far in front” and one that is “close > to the chest” - and one that is neutral in signing space - but over time we > started to write those differences in “depth” with Movement Symbols. We > actually DID have a way to write “depth” with hand symbols years ago, in > the 1980s. > > This was a technique that really worked in the early days of SignWriting, > when we were writing sign language by hand with ink pens. There were 3 > sizes of hand symbols - the normal size we use everyday is the “middle > neutral space”, the smaller version of the symbol means “far away from the > chest” and the larger symbol means closer to the chest. This is based on > art perspectives. Further away is always smaller. > > I have an article about this somewhere - I will try to find it and post it > later. > > But, as time went by, it seemed like too much information that was not > necessary for everyday writing, and for computer symbol sets, it was a real > problem because it would double or triple the amount of symbols so the idea > of "far being smaller" and “close being larger” was ignored and we have one > set of symbols at one size for everything. The ISWA 2010 is large enough! > > So how do we see “depth” in everyday writing? Movement Symbols and some > standardized spellings have helped. > > But now - Adam - please post some SignWriting showing us what you have > written - many thanks! > > Val ;-) > > ---------- > > > > On Apr 15, 2021, at 1:22 PM, Adam Frost wrote: > > I was doing some writing in SignWriting and came across an issue that I > never really thought of in the past. In ASL, scores can be done by placing > the teams in a location and then giving the numbers of the score in that > location. For example, I can have one team on the right and another on the > left. If I sign 4 on the right and then 5 on the left, it clearly says who > has what score. This is easily done using the lanes in SignWriting. > > The issue came into play when it was giving scores for “my team” vs “your > team”. If I signed 4 near my chest and then 5 away from me, it would means > “I have 4 and you have 5.” When I tried to write this, I wrote the shoulder > line over 4 and wrote 5 as I do normally. This didn’t really seem like an > issue to me until I had a friend asked me how I knew that 5 was signed away > from my body rather than just in the neutral location when signing 5 on its > own. I had said I just assumed it, but that got me thinking if there was a > simple way to write it so that it would be clear and didn’t have to be > assumed. Is there? > > > Adam > > > ____________ > > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page > http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages > http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > > > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page > http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages > http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page > http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages > http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 Shot 2021-04-15 at 6.32.37 PM.png> > > > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page > http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages > http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > > > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page > http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages > http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: namesign.png Type: image/png Size: 440 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 4365 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sutton at DANCEWRITING.ORG Fri Apr 16 14:57:06 2021 From: sutton at DANCEWRITING.ORG (Valerie Sutton) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 11:57:06 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] Canonical way of representing signwriting programmatically In-Reply-To: <976424ee-bb61-7462-739e-89184d3d0b47@signpuddle.net> References: <976424ee-bb61-7462-739e-89184d3d0b47@signpuddle.net> Message-ID: <047D840C-83D0-4476-8698-337198A81268@dancewriting.org> SignWriting List April 15, 2021 Hello Jennica - Welcome to the SignWriting List - and I see Steve has answered your question about Fonts. Tell us a little bit about your project, Jennica - If we can help we are here for you - I started remembering our old SW Fingerspelling Fonts from two decades ago, which are still available for download on the web: https://www.signwriting.org/catalog/sw214.html I am not even sure these old Fingerspelling fonts are still working so I will test them later - our web sites go back to 1996 and there are lots of older links that need to be cleaned... There are software programs that use SignWriting symbols … for example SignPuddle Online https://www.signbank.org/signpuddle/ SignWriter Studio https://www.signwriterstudio.com Rand keyboard https://swkb-35431.firebaseapp.com There are programs and apps from Germany: DELEGS https://delegs.de https://delegs.de/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/delegsEditor.jpg and older programs, such as: SignWriter DOS (1986-1996) but still works with DOSBox https://www.signwriting.org/forums/software/sw44/download/ SignWriter Java https://www.signwriting.org/forums/software/sw50/download/download01.html And so many more - Look forward to learning more about your work - Val ;-) ---------- > On Apr 15, 2021, at 3:44 PM, Stephen Slevinski wrote: > > Hi Jennica, > > You can check out a few YouTube videos if you want. > * https://stream.signwriting.org > > References can be found here: > * https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-slevinski-formal-signwriting-07#section-3.3 > * https://slevinski.github.io/SuttonSignWriting/components/svg.html > > You may be interested in the SignWriting Web Components. > * https://www.npmjs.com/package/@sutton-signwriting/sgnw-components > > When creating SVG images for SignWriting, there are two packages you can use. > * https://www.npmjs.com/package/@sutton-signwriting/font-ttf > * https://www.npmjs.com/package/@sutton-signwriting/font-db > > font-ttf is used in the browser and uses TTF files to view the images. > > font-db is used in node and uses a database to create stand-alone svg images. > > Regards, > -Steve > > On 4/15/21 3:37 PM, Jennica Pounds wrote: >> Hi, >> >> I'm interested in using SignWriting programmatically. Poking around the Internet, it seems like fonts aren't quite there, and creating SignWriting text is done via computer-aided SVGs. >> >> Is that correct? If so, where can I see the latest SVG/XML specifications? >> >> Jennica >> ________________________________________________ >> >> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >> >> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jennicaj at GMAIL.COM Fri Apr 16 15:06:43 2021 From: jennicaj at GMAIL.COM (Jennica Pounds) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 12:06:43 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] Canonical way of representing signwriting programmatically In-Reply-To: <047D840C-83D0-4476-8698-337198A81268@dancewriting.org> References: <976424ee-bb61-7462-739e-89184d3d0b47@signpuddle.net> <047D840C-83D0-4476-8698-337198A81268@dancewriting.org> Message-ID: Hi Val and Steve, Thank you for the warm welcome and resources. It is much appreciated. I'm sorry to be coy here, I am not authorized to give details on my project. I've been pursuing Steve's resources all day, and I'm amazed that such a complete expression & formalization of 3D arm & hand movement has been created, and does not seem well-known. Are you aware of any company using SignWriting as a way to formalize body/face movements in applications beyond sign language - for example, wearables? Jennica On Fri, Apr 16, 2021 at 11:57 AM Valerie Sutton wrote: > SignWriting List > April 15, 2021 > > Hello Jennica - > Welcome to the SignWriting List - and I see Steve has answered your > question about Fonts. > > Tell us a little bit about your project, Jennica - If we can help we are > here for you - > > I started remembering our old SW Fingerspelling Fonts from two decades > ago, which are still available for download on the web: > > https://www.signwriting.org/catalog/sw214.html > > I am not even sure these old Fingerspelling fonts are still working so I > will test them later - our web sites go back to 1996 and there are lots of > older links that need to be cleaned... > > There are software programs that use SignWriting symbols … for example > > SignPuddle Online > https://www.signbank.org/signpuddle/ > > SignWriter Studio > https://www.signwriterstudio.com > > Rand keyboard > https://swkb-35431.firebaseapp.com > > There are programs and apps from Germany: > > DELEGS > https://delegs.de > https://delegs.de/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/delegsEditor.jpg > > and older programs, such as: > > SignWriter DOS (1986-1996) but still works with DOSBox > https://www.signwriting.org/forums/software/sw44/download/ > > SignWriter Java > https://www.signwriting.org/forums/software/sw50/download/download01.html > > And so many more - > > Look forward to learning more about your work - > > Val ;-) > > ---------- > > > > > On Apr 15, 2021, at 3:44 PM, Stephen Slevinski > wrote: > > Hi Jennica, > > You can check out a few YouTube videos if you want. > * https://stream.signwriting.org > > References can be found here: > * > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-slevinski-formal-signwriting-07#section-3.3 > * https://slevinski.github.io/SuttonSignWriting/components/svg.html > > You may be interested in the SignWriting Web Components. > * https://www.npmjs.com/package/@sutton-signwriting/sgnw-components > > When creating SVG images for SignWriting, there are two packages you can > use. > * https://www.npmjs.com/package/@sutton-signwriting/font-ttf > * https://www.npmjs.com/package/@sutton-signwriting/font-db > > font-ttf is used in the browser and uses TTF files to view the images. > > font-db is used in node and uses a database to create stand-alone svg > images. > > Regards, > -Steve > > On 4/15/21 3:37 PM, Jennica Pounds wrote: > > Hi, > > I'm interested in using SignWriting programmatically. Poking around the > Internet, it seems like fonts aren't quite there, and creating SignWriting > text is done via computer-aided SVGs. > > Is that correct? If so, where can I see the latest SVG/XML specifications? > > Jennica > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page > http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages > http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > > > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page > http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages > http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > > > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page > http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages > http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG Fri Apr 16 15:51:53 2021 From: sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG (Valerie Sutton) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 12:51:53 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: <2FC8FC1F-461B-4ED2-B726-8A332F4BD08A@gmail.com> References: <2FC8FC1F-461B-4ED2-B726-8A332F4BD08A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <547AE4F1-07F4-4D1C-B694-A34A197D2144@signwriting.org> SignWriting List April 16, 2021 Hi Adam - Yes, I know what you mean. For example, in verb modulations or conjugations, “you give to me” and “I give to you” do have a “feeling of depth” in front of the body, and it is necessary at times to write this. The reason we started using smaller and larger symbols to show depth, years ago, was connected to writing classifiers. I need to find the proper notes to show you our thoughts at that time, but imagine that a classifer is showing a table’s legs and two of the legs are closer to your chest, and two of the table’s legs are further away from you. How can one see, in the SignWriting, that one of the hands showing the two fingers for the legs of the table is really farther in front than the other one? Size was a great way to show this visually, which actually comes from DanceWriting originally, when one leg would be further away than the other in fourth position and so forth… the Top View is accurate but a little annoying because we change viewpoints - where the size differences could keep the Front View and see the depth anyway - but I can see Kacio just posted that he uses smaller and larger for BOLD writing and that seems very logical too - so we would need to establish some standards if we tried to adopt size variations - so for now I think the Top View is best. Let me look at your writing later today and I will try to write it for you, although I bet you can try it yourself? Why not re-write it for us and post it? We are all learning from each other ;-) Val ;-) -------- > On Apr 16, 2021, at 11:14 AM, Adam Frost wrote: > > The lanes work great in most cases since the spatial comparison is usually on the sides. However, I have ran into an issue when the spatial comparison uses depth to imply me and you. This isn’t usage of depth isn’t used often, but it is necessary at times to convey the correct meaning. > > So I guess the top view is the way to go when depth must be shown. Does that mean that the palm facing should change accordingly to keep with the view change? If so, how would what I used in my example be written? > > > Adam > >> On Apr 16, 2021, at 10:57 AM, Valerie Sutton <0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU > wrote: >> >> SignWriting List >> April 16, 2021 >> >> Hello Andre and Adam - >> >> Thanks to you both for posting examples in SignWriting. >> >> Andre - it has been a long time since we have communicated. I appreciate your suggestion writing with the Top View of the Head - that certainly shows “depth” well. >> >> And Adam - your writing with Lanes also works for me - both writings seem readable. But I would not have thought of the Shoulder Line to mean that the hand was necessarily closer to my chest or not, unless there was a contact symbol with the chest. I suppose an added Surface Symbol might give some information, but does the depth really matter? If this is a research project where you really have to be accurate and it does matter, then using the Top View of the Head would be the answer, but I suspect the way you wrote it in Lanes is giving a Spatial Comparison enough that it is readable in Lanes… >> >> I loved the smaller and larger hands to show “depth” and I see that there are some solutions by some of the messages posted to the List - I am reading each email one by one - maybe software can do it after all! >> >> Those are my thoughts anyway - So great that you wrote to the List about this, Adam - >> >> Nice to have the List active again - >> >> Val ;-) >> >> >> ---------- >> >> >> >>> On Apr 15, 2021, at 7:39 PM, André Thibeault > wrote: >>> >>> Hello Adaame and Val, >>> >>> I write this: >>> >>> >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> André >>> De : Adam Frost > >>> Répondre à : "SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages" > >>> Date : Thu, 15 Apr 2021 18:40:47 -0700 >>> À : > >>> Objet : Re: Placement of Signs in Space >>> >>> I thought I recall something about the sizing being used for depth, but I don’t think that it would be necessary for everyday writing. Like I said, this situation rarely comes up for me. ;-) >>> >>> Here is a screen capture of what I wrote. It is talking about two baseball teams: The Nationals and the Diamondbacks. >>> >>> >>> >>> Notice the last two signs are supposed to have the depth. I feel that the shoulder line shows the number being closer to the body, but the other number doesn’t have the concept of being away from the body as it is written. >>> >>> As for the concepts of “teams”, ASL makes use of placing concepts in specific locations all the time. It isn’t limited to names of teams. That is the reason the lanes work so well for this. However, it is common for people to have their preferred teams in sports, so that is where the depth comes into play. >>> >>> >>> Adam >>> >>>> On Apr 15, 2021, at 6:17 PM, Valerie Sutton <0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU > wrote: >>>> >>>> SignWriting List >>>> April 15, 2021 >>>> >>>> Hello everyone on the SignWriting List, and thank you for this message, Adam ;-) >>>> >>>> Of course this sounds like a very useful way to write “teams” in sign language, but can you show us written examples in SignWriting? >>>> >>>> And since I am not a teacher of a classroom of ASL signers, maybe you could explain to me (and all of us) - what do you mean by “teams”? Is it for writing some kind of a game in ASL? >>>> >>>> But to answer your question - the Lanes show us spatial comparisons and weight-shifting to the “right of center” and to the “left of center”. They are invaluable for writing spatial comparisons in sign languages. >>>> >>>> Technically there is a Lane that is “far in front” and one that is “close to the chest” - and one that is neutral in signing space - but over time we started to write those differences in “depth” with Movement Symbols. We actually DID have a way to write “depth” with hand symbols years ago, in the 1980s. >>>> >>>> This was a technique that really worked in the early days of SignWriting, when we were writing sign language by hand with ink pens. There were 3 sizes of hand symbols - the normal size we use everyday is the “middle neutral space”, the smaller version of the symbol means “far away from the chest” and the larger symbol means closer to the chest. This is based on art perspectives. Further away is always smaller. >>>> >>>> I have an article about this somewhere - I will try to find it and post it later. >>>> >>>> But, as time went by, it seemed like too much information that was not necessary for everyday writing, and for computer symbol sets, it was a real problem because it would double or triple the amount of symbols so the idea of "far being smaller" and “close being larger” was ignored and we have one set of symbols at one size for everything. The ISWA 2010 is large enough! >>>> >>>> So how do we see “depth” in everyday writing? Movement Symbols and some standardized spellings have helped. >>>> >>>> But now - Adam - please post some SignWriting showing us what you have written - many thanks! >>>> >>>> Val ;-) >>>> >>>> ---------- >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Apr 15, 2021, at 1:22 PM, Adam Frost > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I was doing some writing in SignWriting and came across an issue that I never really thought of in the past. In ASL, scores can be done by placing the teams in a location and then giving the numbers of the score in that location. For example, I can have one team on the right and another on the left. If I sign 4 on the right and then 5 on the left, it clearly says who has what score. This is easily done using the lanes in SignWriting. >>>>> >>>>> The issue came into play when it was giving scores for “my team” vs “your team”. If I signed 4 near my chest and then 5 away from me, it would means “I have 4 and you have 5.” When I tried to write this, I wrote the shoulder line over 4 and wrote 5 as I do normally. This didn’t really seem like an issue to me until I had a friend asked me how I knew that 5 was signed away from my body rather than just in the neutral location when signing 5 on its own. I had said I just assumed it, but that got me thinking if there was a simple way to write it so that it would be clear and didn’t have to be assumed. Is there? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Adam >>>>> >>>> >>>> ____________ >>>> >>>> ________________________________________________ >>>> >>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >>> ________________________________________________ >>> >>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ >>> >>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >> >> ________________________________________________ >> >> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >> >> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: namesign.png Type: image/png Size: 440 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG Fri Apr 16 16:00:33 2021 From: sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG (Valerie Sutton) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 13:00:33 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: References: <2FC8FC1F-461B-4ED2-B726-8A332F4BD08A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6BA2668D-BB18-43B7-B814-A9091C113A16@signwriting.org> SignWriting List April 16, 2021 Hello Kacio! Great to hear from you. I like your examples of writing from the Top View to show difficult positions. Nice diagrams. And your idea to use size differences for BOLD or ITALIC or PROPER NOUNS is a good idea. If it works, it works ;-) For those who may not know your work… Kacio has published the most beautiful book on LIBRAS poetry (poetry in Brazilian Sign Language). Here is the link to one of his books: https://www.signwriting.org/archive/docs13/sw1213_Brasil_Previa_Livro_SER_Kacio_de_Lima.pdf Val ;-) —————— > On Apr 16, 2021, at 11:34 AM, Kacio de Lima Evangelista wrote: > > Hi! > > > I usually use the upper point of view only when I see that there will be depth confusion or if the signal uses the arm horizontally as a support for the pronunciation. Here is an example: > > > > ("white" in Libras) > > > About decreasing the size of the sign to stand out in the text, I use it as a strategy to emphasize the names of people and places or a specific sign, something similar to the bold and italic font. > > This is because it helps to quickly identify whether the written sign is a proper name or focus of the topic to be treated. > > > > Atenciosamente, > > Prof. Kácio Evangelista. > > > Em sex., 16 de abr. de 2021 às 15:15, Adam Frost > escreveu: > The lanes work great in most cases since the spatial comparison is usually on the sides. However, I have ran into an issue when the spatial comparison uses depth to imply me and you. This isn’t usage of depth isn’t used often, but it is necessary at times to convey the correct meaning. > > So I guess the top view is the way to go when depth must be shown. Does that mean that the palm facing should change accordingly to keep with the view change? If so, how would what I used in my example be written? > > > Adam > >> On Apr 16, 2021, at 10:57 AM, Valerie Sutton <0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU > wrote: >> >> SignWriting List >> April 16, 2021 >> >> Hello Andre and Adam - >> >> Thanks to you both for posting examples in SignWriting. >> >> Andre - it has been a long time since we have communicated. I appreciate your suggestion writing with the Top View of the Head - that certainly shows “depth” well. >> >> And Adam - your writing with Lanes also works for me - both writings seem readable. But I would not have thought of the Shoulder Line to mean that the hand was necessarily closer to my chest or not, unless there was a contact symbol with the chest. I suppose an added Surface Symbol might give some information, but does the depth really matter? If this is a research project where you really have to be accurate and it does matter, then using the Top View of the Head would be the answer, but I suspect the way you wrote it in Lanes is giving a Spatial Comparison enough that it is readable in Lanes… >> >> I loved the smaller and larger hands to show “depth” and I see that there are some solutions by some of the messages posted to the List - I am reading each email one by one - maybe software can do it after all! >> >> Those are my thoughts anyway - So great that you wrote to the List about this, Adam - >> >> Nice to have the List active again - >> >> Val ;-) >> >> >> ---------- >> >> >> >>> On Apr 15, 2021, at 7:39 PM, André Thibeault > wrote: >>> >>> Hello Adaame and Val, >>> >>> I write this: >>> >>> >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> André >>> De : Adam Frost > >>> Répondre à : "SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages" > >>> Date : Thu, 15 Apr 2021 18:40:47 -0700 >>> À : > >>> Objet : Re: Placement of Signs in Space >>> >>> I thought I recall something about the sizing being used for depth, but I don’t think that it would be necessary for everyday writing. Like I said, this situation rarely comes up for me. ;-) >>> >>> Here is a screen capture of what I wrote. It is talking about two baseball teams: The Nationals and the Diamondbacks. >>> >>> >>> >>> Notice the last two signs are supposed to have the depth. I feel that the shoulder line shows the number being closer to the body, but the other number doesn’t have the concept of being away from the body as it is written. >>> >>> As for the concepts of “teams”, ASL makes use of placing concepts in specific locations all the time. It isn’t limited to names of teams. That is the reason the lanes work so well for this. However, it is common for people to have their preferred teams in sports, so that is where the depth comes into play. >>> >>> >>> Adam >>> >>>> On Apr 15, 2021, at 6:17 PM, Valerie Sutton <0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU > wrote: >>>> >>>> SignWriting List >>>> April 15, 2021 >>>> >>>> Hello everyone on the SignWriting List, and thank you for this message, Adam ;-) >>>> >>>> Of course this sounds like a very useful way to write “teams” in sign language, but can you show us written examples in SignWriting? >>>> >>>> And since I am not a teacher of a classroom of ASL signers, maybe you could explain to me (and all of us) - what do you mean by “teams”? Is it for writing some kind of a game in ASL? >>>> >>>> But to answer your question - the Lanes show us spatial comparisons and weight-shifting to the “right of center” and to the “left of center”. They are invaluable for writing spatial comparisons in sign languages. >>>> >>>> Technically there is a Lane that is “far in front” and one that is “close to the chest” - and one that is neutral in signing space - but over time we started to write those differences in “depth” with Movement Symbols. We actually DID have a way to write “depth” with hand symbols years ago, in the 1980s. >>>> >>>> This was a technique that really worked in the early days of SignWriting, when we were writing sign language by hand with ink pens. There were 3 sizes of hand symbols - the normal size we use everyday is the “middle neutral space”, the smaller version of the symbol means “far away from the chest” and the larger symbol means closer to the chest. This is based on art perspectives. Further away is always smaller. >>>> >>>> I have an article about this somewhere - I will try to find it and post it later. >>>> >>>> But, as time went by, it seemed like too much information that was not necessary for everyday writing, and for computer symbol sets, it was a real problem because it would double or triple the amount of symbols so the idea of "far being smaller" and “close being larger” was ignored and we have one set of symbols at one size for everything. The ISWA 2010 is large enough! >>>> >>>> So how do we see “depth” in everyday writing? Movement Symbols and some standardized spellings have helped. >>>> >>>> But now - Adam - please post some SignWriting showing us what you have written - many thanks! >>>> >>>> Val ;-) >>>> >>>> ---------- >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Apr 15, 2021, at 1:22 PM, Adam Frost > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I was doing some writing in SignWriting and came across an issue that I never really thought of in the past. In ASL, scores can be done by placing the teams in a location and then giving the numbers of the score in that location. For example, I can have one team on the right and another on the left. If I sign 4 on the right and then 5 on the left, it clearly says who has what score. This is easily done using the lanes in SignWriting. >>>>> >>>>> The issue came into play when it was giving scores for “my team” vs “your team”. If I signed 4 near my chest and then 5 away from me, it would means “I have 4 and you have 5.” When I tried to write this, I wrote the shoulder line over 4 and wrote 5 as I do normally. This didn’t really seem like an issue to me until I had a friend asked me how I knew that 5 was signed away from my body rather than just in the neutral location when signing 5 on its own. I had said I just assumed it, but that got me thinking if there was a simple way to write it so that it would be clear and didn’t have to be assumed. Is there? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Adam >>>>> >>>> >>>> ____________ >>>> >>>> ________________________________________________ >>>> >>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >>> ________________________________________________ >>> >>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ >>> >>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >> >> ________________________________________________ >> >> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >> >> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: LIBRAS Poetry.png Type: image/png Size: 53789 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 4365 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: namesign.png Type: image/png Size: 440 bytes Desc: not available URL: From icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM Wed Apr 21 00:06:02 2021 From: icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM (Adam Frost) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2021 21:06:02 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: <547AE4F1-07F4-4D1C-B694-A34A197D2144@signwriting.org> References: <2FC8FC1F-461B-4ED2-B726-8A332F4BD08A@gmail.com> <547AE4F1-07F4-4D1C-B694-A34A197D2144@signwriting.org> Message-ID: <2ABE1B97-D8D3-456B-861C-79390B5F7B91@gmail.com> I tried to write the “I have 5 and you have 4” phrase using the top view. I am not sure about the palm facing so I wrote it twice, but neither seem to be right for some reason. It could just be that I am not used to writing from the top view. ;-) Adam > On Apr 16, 2021, at 12:51 PM, Valerie Sutton wrote: > > SignWriting List > April 16, 2021 > > Hi Adam - > Yes, I know what you mean. For example, in verb modulations or conjugations, “you give to me” and “I give to you” do have a “feeling of depth” in front of the body, and it is necessary at times to write this. The reason we started using smaller and larger symbols to show depth, years ago, was connected to writing classifiers. I need to find the proper notes to show you our thoughts at that time, but imagine that a classifer is showing a table’s legs and two of the legs are closer to your chest, and two of the table’s legs are further away from you. How can one see, in the SignWriting, that one of the hands showing the two fingers for the legs of the table is really farther in front than the other one? Size was a great way to show this visually, which actually comes from DanceWriting originally, when one leg would be further away than the other in fourth position and so forth… the Top View is accurate but a little annoying because we change viewpoints - where the size differences could keep the Front View and see the depth anyway - but I can see Kacio just posted that he uses smaller and larger for BOLD writing and that seems very logical too - so we would need to establish some standards if we tried to adopt size variations - so for now I think the Top View is best. > > Let me look at your writing later today and I will try to write it for you, although I bet you can try it yourself? Why not re-write it for us and post it? We are all learning from each other ;-) > > Val ;-) > > -------- > > >> On Apr 16, 2021, at 11:14 AM, Adam Frost > wrote: >> >> The lanes work great in most cases since the spatial comparison is usually on the sides. However, I have ran into an issue when the spatial comparison uses depth to imply me and you. This isn’t usage of depth isn’t used often, but it is necessary at times to convey the correct meaning. >> >> So I guess the top view is the way to go when depth must be shown. Does that mean that the palm facing should change accordingly to keep with the view change? If so, how would what I used in my example be written? >> >> >> Adam >> >>> On Apr 16, 2021, at 10:57 AM, Valerie Sutton <0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU > wrote: >>> >>> SignWriting List >>> April 16, 2021 >>> >>> Hello Andre and Adam - >>> >>> Thanks to you both for posting examples in SignWriting. >>> >>> Andre - it has been a long time since we have communicated. I appreciate your suggestion writing with the Top View of the Head - that certainly shows “depth” well. >>> >>> And Adam - your writing with Lanes also works for me - both writings seem readable. But I would not have thought of the Shoulder Line to mean that the hand was necessarily closer to my chest or not, unless there was a contact symbol with the chest. I suppose an added Surface Symbol might give some information, but does the depth really matter? If this is a research project where you really have to be accurate and it does matter, then using the Top View of the Head would be the answer, but I suspect the way you wrote it in Lanes is giving a Spatial Comparison enough that it is readable in Lanes… >>> >>> I loved the smaller and larger hands to show “depth” and I see that there are some solutions by some of the messages posted to the List - I am reading each email one by one - maybe software can do it after all! >>> >>> Those are my thoughts anyway - So great that you wrote to the List about this, Adam - >>> >>> Nice to have the List active again - >>> >>> Val ;-) >>> >>> >>> ---------- >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Apr 15, 2021, at 7:39 PM, André Thibeault > wrote: >>>> >>>> Hello Adaame and Val, >>>> >>>> I write this: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> >>>> André >>>> De : Adam Frost > >>>> Répondre à : "SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages" > >>>> Date : Thu, 15 Apr 2021 18:40:47 -0700 >>>> À : > >>>> Objet : Re: Placement of Signs in Space >>>> >>>> I thought I recall something about the sizing being used for depth, but I don’t think that it would be necessary for everyday writing. Like I said, this situation rarely comes up for me. ;-) >>>> >>>> Here is a screen capture of what I wrote. It is talking about two baseball teams: The Nationals and the Diamondbacks. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Notice the last two signs are supposed to have the depth. I feel that the shoulder line shows the number being closer to the body, but the other number doesn’t have the concept of being away from the body as it is written. >>>> >>>> As for the concepts of “teams”, ASL makes use of placing concepts in specific locations all the time. It isn’t limited to names of teams. That is the reason the lanes work so well for this. However, it is common for people to have their preferred teams in sports, so that is where the depth comes into play. >>>> >>>> >>>> Adam >>>> >>>>> On Apr 15, 2021, at 6:17 PM, Valerie Sutton <0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> SignWriting List >>>>> April 15, 2021 >>>>> >>>>> Hello everyone on the SignWriting List, and thank you for this message, Adam ;-) >>>>> >>>>> Of course this sounds like a very useful way to write “teams” in sign language, but can you show us written examples in SignWriting? >>>>> >>>>> And since I am not a teacher of a classroom of ASL signers, maybe you could explain to me (and all of us) - what do you mean by “teams”? Is it for writing some kind of a game in ASL? >>>>> >>>>> But to answer your question - the Lanes show us spatial comparisons and weight-shifting to the “right of center” and to the “left of center”. They are invaluable for writing spatial comparisons in sign languages. >>>>> >>>>> Technically there is a Lane that is “far in front” and one that is “close to the chest” - and one that is neutral in signing space - but over time we started to write those differences in “depth” with Movement Symbols. We actually DID have a way to write “depth” with hand symbols years ago, in the 1980s. >>>>> >>>>> This was a technique that really worked in the early days of SignWriting, when we were writing sign language by hand with ink pens. There were 3 sizes of hand symbols - the normal size we use everyday is the “middle neutral space”, the smaller version of the symbol means “far away from the chest” and the larger symbol means closer to the chest. This is based on art perspectives. Further away is always smaller. >>>>> >>>>> I have an article about this somewhere - I will try to find it and post it later. >>>>> >>>>> But, as time went by, it seemed like too much information that was not necessary for everyday writing, and for computer symbol sets, it was a real problem because it would double or triple the amount of symbols so the idea of "far being smaller" and “close being larger” was ignored and we have one set of symbols at one size for everything. The ISWA 2010 is large enough! >>>>> >>>>> So how do we see “depth” in everyday writing? Movement Symbols and some standardized spellings have helped. >>>>> >>>>> But now - Adam - please post some SignWriting showing us what you have written - many thanks! >>>>> >>>>> Val ;-) >>>>> >>>>> ---------- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Apr 15, 2021, at 1:22 PM, Adam Frost > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I was doing some writing in SignWriting and came across an issue that I never really thought of in the past. In ASL, scores can be done by placing the teams in a location and then giving the numbers of the score in that location. For example, I can have one team on the right and another on the left. If I sign 4 on the right and then 5 on the left, it clearly says who has what score. This is easily done using the lanes in SignWriting. >>>>>> >>>>>> The issue came into play when it was giving scores for “my team” vs “your team”. If I signed 4 near my chest and then 5 away from me, it would means “I have 4 and you have 5.” When I tried to write this, I wrote the shoulder line over 4 and wrote 5 as I do normally. This didn’t really seem like an issue to me until I had a friend asked me how I knew that 5 was signed away from my body rather than just in the neutral location when signing 5 on its own. I had said I just assumed it, but that got me thinking if there was a simple way to write it so that it would be clear and didn’t have to be assumed. Is there? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Adam >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ____________ >>>>> >>>>> ________________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >>>> ________________________________________________ >>>> >>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ >>>> >>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >>> >>> ________________________________________________ >>> >>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>> >>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >> ________________________________________________ >> >> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >> >> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2021-04-20 at 9.05.46 PM.png Type: image/png Size: 24940 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: namesign.png Type: image/png Size: 440 bytes Desc: not available URL: From icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM Wed Apr 21 17:01:50 2021 From: icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM (Adam Frost) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 14:01:50 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: <528A7983-8BC4-47A2-AE7E-EAF76C977F34@signwriting.org> References: <2FC8FC1F-461B-4ED2-B726-8A332F4BD08A@gmail.com> <547AE4F1-07F4-4D1C-B694-A34A197D2144@signwriting.org> <2ABE1B97-D8D3-456B-861C-79390B5F7B91@gmail.com> <528A7983-8BC4-47A2-AE7E-EAF76C977F34@signwriting.org> Message-ID: Here is a quick clip. Adam > On Apr 21, 2021, at 1:52 PM, Valerie Sutton wrote: > > SignWriting List > April 20, 2021 > > Hi Adam - > Can you make a video showing us this please? Please post the video to our SignWriting List. You are welcome to post it in our SignWriting Channel on YouTube or directly to the List in email. Send us the video link and then I will place everyone’s writing side by side, plus I will try to write it too, and it will be fun to compare and discuss > > Thank you for the great discussion - > > Val ;-) > > ------------ > > > >> On Apr 20, 2021, at 9:06 PM, Adam Frost wrote: >> >> I tried to write the “I have 5 and you have 4” phrase using the top view. I am not sure about the palm facing so I wrote it twice, but neither seem to be right for some reason. It could just be that I am not used to writing from the top view. ;-) >> >> >> >> >> Adam > > —— > > > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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URL: From sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG Wed Apr 21 16:52:39 2021 From: sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG (Valerie Sutton) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 13:52:39 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: <2ABE1B97-D8D3-456B-861C-79390B5F7B91@gmail.com> References: <2FC8FC1F-461B-4ED2-B726-8A332F4BD08A@gmail.com> <547AE4F1-07F4-4D1C-B694-A34A197D2144@signwriting.org> <2ABE1B97-D8D3-456B-861C-79390B5F7B91@gmail.com> Message-ID: <528A7983-8BC4-47A2-AE7E-EAF76C977F34@signwriting.org> SignWriting List April 20, 2021 Hi Adam - Can you make a video showing us this please? Please post the video to our SignWriting List. You are welcome to post it in our SignWriting Channel on YouTube or directly to the List in email. Send us the video link and then I will place everyone’s writing side by side, plus I will try to write it too, and it will be fun to compare and discuss Thank you for the great discussion - Val ;-) ------------ > On Apr 20, 2021, at 9:06 PM, Adam Frost wrote: > > I tried to write the “I have 5 and you have 4” phrase using the top view. I am not sure about the palm facing so I wrote it twice, but neither seem to be right for some reason. It could just be that I am not used to writing from the top view. ;-) > > > > > Adam > —— ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2021-04-20 at 9.05.46 PM.png Type: image/png Size: 24940 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: namesign.png Type: image/png Size: 440 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PastedGraphic-2.tiff Type: image/tiff Size: 43058 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG Wed Apr 21 18:03:24 2021 From: sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG (Valerie Sutton) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 15:03:24 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: References: <2FC8FC1F-461B-4ED2-B726-8A332F4BD08A@gmail.com> <547AE4F1-07F4-4D1C-B694-A34A197D2144@signwriting.org> <2ABE1B97-D8D3-456B-861C-79390B5F7B91@gmail.com> <528A7983-8BC4-47A2-AE7E-EAF76C977F34@signwriting.org> Message-ID: <9ED6D1CC-4030-4BFC-BC57-850DC11B3218@signwriting.org> SignWriting List April 21, 2021 Hi Adam - Thank you for the video clip, of one hand moving forward. But your original posting was longer and more variety of signs and movements…(see attached diagram). Can you show us a video clip of all that is in the attached diagram? You establish National in the left lane and DB in the right lane, and so forth - can you sign the whole phrase for us? Many thanks... ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 843D0504-7CE2-4657-ADBA-FD6C5D3FEF8A.tiff Type: image/tiff Size: 43058 bytes Desc: not available URL: From icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM Wed Apr 21 19:29:35 2021 From: icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM (Adam Frost) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 16:29:35 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: <9ED6D1CC-4030-4BFC-BC57-850DC11B3218@signwriting.org> References: <2FC8FC1F-461B-4ED2-B726-8A332F4BD08A@gmail.com> <547AE4F1-07F4-4D1C-B694-A34A197D2144@signwriting.org> <2ABE1B97-D8D3-456B-861C-79390B5F7B91@gmail.com> <528A7983-8BC4-47A2-AE7E-EAF76C977F34@signwriting.org> <9ED6D1CC-4030-4BFC-BC57-850DC11B3218@signwriting.org> Message-ID: Ok. Here is that one. ;-) Adam > On Apr 21, 2021, at 3:03 PM, Valerie Sutton wrote: > > SignWriting List > April 21, 2021 > > Hi Adam - > Thank you for the video clip, of one hand moving forward. But your original posting was longer and more variety of signs and movements…(see attached diagram). Can you show us a video clip of all that is in the attached diagram? You establish National in the left lane and DB in the right lane, and so forth - can you sign the whole phrase for us? Many thanks... > > <843D0504-7CE2-4657-ADBA-FD6C5D3FEF8A.tiff> > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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URL: From 0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU Wed Apr 21 23:12:09 2021 From: 0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU (Valerie Sutton) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 20:12:09 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: References: <2FC8FC1F-461B-4ED2-B726-8A332F4BD08A@gmail.com> <547AE4F1-07F4-4D1C-B694-A34A197D2144@signwriting.org> <2ABE1B97-D8D3-456B-861C-79390B5F7B91@gmail.com> <528A7983-8BC4-47A2-AE7E-EAF76C977F34@signwriting.org> <9ED6D1CC-4030-4BFC-BC57-850DC11B3218@signwriting.org> Message-ID: Thank you, Adam! OK. I hope to read everyone’s writing of this, and post the comparison tomorrow, with an example of how I would write it - you all did an excellent job - just interesting to discuss the options - and then the issue of software and CSS styling strings vs the old way we used to write by hand - that I find interesting - writing depth used to be so easy by hand ... Talk to you tomorrow - thank you for your patience ;-) Val ;-) ----------- > On Apr 21, 2021, at 4:29 PM, Adam Frost wrote: > > Ok. Here is that one. ;-) > ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Video.MOV Type: video/quicktime Size: 3502830 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG Thu Apr 22 13:13:53 2021 From: sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG (Valerie Sutton) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 10:13:53 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: <2ABE1B97-D8D3-456B-861C-79390B5F7B91@gmail.com> References: <2FC8FC1F-461B-4ED2-B726-8A332F4BD08A@gmail.com> <547AE4F1-07F4-4D1C-B694-A34A197D2144@signwriting.org> <2ABE1B97-D8D3-456B-861C-79390B5F7B91@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7A9944EF-785F-473F-B14F-C7F86B39389F@SIGNWRITING.ORG> SignWrting List April 22, 2021 Hello Adam, Andre, Cherie, Kacio, Steve, Jonathan and everyone - Thank you for your messages and diagrams about "writing depth”. What wonderful messages you all posted, There are so many ways to write this... And thank you Adam, for the two videos posted yesterday. They helped me a lot ;-) As you know, the Top View can be mixed with the Front View. The Head in Top View establishes the “depth” but the rest of the sign .. the hands, the movements … can be written in the Front View, placed either near or far from the Head & body. It sounds crazy, but this combination of viewpoints seems to be working for readers. The Front View also works with the Shoulder Line. It is clear that the second handshape is “far away” because of the Movement Arrow putting it there at the end of the movement. See diagram: And looking at the above diagram I can see other ways to write it too. So there are a variety of choices. For me, the Movement Arrow gives me the depth information, but if you do not want to use an arrow, then the old “sizes” work very well. Originally SignWriting was designed to keep the writing ALL Front View, using "size of symbols" to write the depth perspective of “far away”. Smaller symbols represented “far away”. This would work well with video transcription, such as Amit Moryossef’s amazing software representation of a stick figure on a video: https://youtu.be/pCKRWSNIaNQ So originally, the general “Movement Writing” system was designed without mixing viewpoints within one sign. I want to thank Steve Slevinski for his posting about CSS Styling strings and the fact that Steve’s styling strings make it possible in software to change the size of symbols, and thank you Steve, for SignMaker 2017 and thank you, Jonathan, for the Quick SignEditor programs that are implementing those styling strings right now. I am grateful for your efforts and I hope to use the size differences now to write a technical document about these issues. I am aware of the point, that Rich Text is great for individual documents or signs that can be captured in graphics so the information is not lost, but in an actual symbolset, the information of “small” vs “large” would be lost if it is just plain text. Nonetheless, I am glad to know I can access the smaller symbols in the two programs and I plan to use it for some demonstrations. I have more to share later - hope you all can get up from your computers and do some exercise - it is so easy to sit for hours without realizing we need to move too! Have a great day everyone - Val ;-) ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: Amit Moryossef.png Type: image/png Size: 134749 bytes Desc: not available URL: From icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM Thu Apr 22 15:16:15 2021 From: icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM (Adam Frost) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 12:16:15 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: <7A9944EF-785F-473F-B14F-C7F86B39389F@SIGNWRITING.ORG> References: <2FC8FC1F-461B-4ED2-B726-8A332F4BD08A@gmail.com> <547AE4F1-07F4-4D1C-B694-A34A197D2144@signwriting.org> <2ABE1B97-D8D3-456B-861C-79390B5F7B91@gmail.com> <7A9944EF-785F-473F-B14F-C7F86B39389F@SIGNWRITING.ORG> Message-ID: <1902965D-1E7A-4EE9-B818-B381B65336E6@gmail.com> > The Head in Top View establishes the “depth” but the rest of the sign .. the hands, the movements … can be written in the Front View, placed either near or far from the Head & body. Interesting. Something I wasn’t sure about since I don’t generally write with the Head in Top View. ;-) I just wasn’t sure if the sign should be read from the top view rather than the front view. But I can learn the “rule” that it would be read from front view with the added information of depth. Now I wonder how this would have been written if the last sign “5” wasn’t there, so as to say "I support the Diamondbacks and we have 4.” That would mean that there would be no movement to show depth for the first option. The shoulder line would just make it seem like the hand is at the height placed rather than depth. So it appears that the Head in Top View would be the best option. Is that correct? I agree that the sizing would be a nice way to show depth, but I can understand Steve’s point about that sort of information being easily lost. This reminds me of superscripts and subscripts. They aren’t generally used in everyday writing, but they are used in math and science, such as x2 and H2O. When written in plain text, they show as x2 and H2O. This even happens with 1st and 2nd being written as 1st and 2nd. I know that in the math case, plain text is often written as x^2 to show that it is superscripted. So I guess that would be like placing the head in top view to show depth in plain text and then using sizing to show it in rich text? An interesting thought. ;-) Now on a different tangent, could a fourth option (no including the sizing) be with this side view head? Would signs written with this be written to fit that view, or would they stay in Front View? Adam > On Apr 22, 2021, at 10:13 AM, Valerie Sutton wrote: > > SignWrting List > April 22, 2021 > > Hello Adam, Andre, Cherie, Kacio, Steve, Jonathan and everyone - > > Thank you for your messages and diagrams about "writing depth”. What wonderful messages you all posted, There are so many ways to write this... > > And thank you Adam, for the two videos posted yesterday. They helped me a lot ;-) > > As you know, the Top View can be mixed with the Front View. The Head in Top View establishes the “depth” but the rest of the sign .. the hands, the movements … can be written in the Front View, placed either near or far from the Head & body. It sounds crazy, but this combination of viewpoints seems to be working for readers. > > The Front View also works with the Shoulder Line. It is clear that the second handshape is “far away” because of the Movement Arrow putting it there at the end of the movement. See diagram: > > <3 Ways To Write Depth v1.jpg> > > And looking at the above diagram I can see other ways to write it too. So there are a variety of choices. For me, the Movement Arrow gives me the depth information, but if you do not want to use an arrow, then the old “sizes” work very well. > > Originally SignWriting was designed to keep the writing ALL Front View, using "size of symbols" to write the depth perspective of “far away”. Smaller symbols represented “far away”. > > > > > This would work well with video transcription, such as Amit Moryossef’s amazing software representation of a stick figure on a video: > > > > https://youtu.be/pCKRWSNIaNQ > > > So originally, the general “Movement Writing” system was designed without mixing viewpoints within one sign. > > I want to thank Steve Slevinski for his posting about CSS Styling strings and the fact that Steve’s styling strings make it possible in software to change the size of symbols, and thank you Steve, for SignMaker 2017 and thank you, Jonathan, for the Quick SignEditor programs that are implementing those styling strings right now. I am grateful for your efforts and I hope to use the size differences now to write a technical document about these issues. > > I am aware of the point, that Rich Text is great for individual documents or signs that can be captured in graphics so the information is not lost, but in an actual symbolset, the information of “small” vs “large” would be lost if it is just plain text. > > Nonetheless, I am glad to know I can access the smaller symbols in the two programs and I plan to use it for some demonstrations. > > I have more to share later - hope you all can get up from your computers and do some exercise - it is so easy to sit for hours without realizing we need to move too! > > Have a great day everyone - > > Val ;-) > > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: namesign.png Type: image/png Size: 440 bytes Desc: not available URL: From 000000111c1a7803-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU Thu Apr 22 16:21:49 2021 From: 000000111c1a7803-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU (Cherie Wren) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 20:21:49 +0000 Subject: [Sw-l] [SPAM] Re: Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: <1902965D-1E7A-4EE9-B818-B381B65336E6@gmail.com> References: <2FC8FC1F-461B-4ED2-B726-8A332F4BD08A@gmail.com> <547AE4F1-07F4-4D1C-B694-A34A197D2144@signwriting.org> <2ABE1B97-D8D3-456B-861C-79390B5F7B91@gmail.com> <7A9944EF-785F-473F-B14F-C7F86B39389F@SIGNWRITING.ORG> <1902965D-1E7A-4EE9-B818-B381B65336E6@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1538615152.2892739.1619122909225@mail.yahoo.com> "Now I wonder how this would have been written if the last sign “5” wasn’t there, so as to say "I support the Diamondbacks and we have 4.” That would mean that there would be no movement to show depth for the first option." I sign that usually one handed meaning I start with the 4 near my chest and move out to so the 5 is aiming at whoever supports that team. That way you have a movement arrow to show depth. On Thursday, April 22, 2021, 03:16:38 PM EDT, Adam Frost wrote: The Head in Top View establishes the “depth” but the rest of the sign .. the hands, the movements … can be written in the Front View, placed either near or far from the Head & body. Interesting. Something I wasn’t sure about since I don’t generally write with the Head in Top View. ;-) I just wasn’t sure if the sign should be read from the top view rather than the front view. But I can learn the “rule” that it would be read from front view with the added information of depth. Now I wonder how this would have been written if the last sign “5” wasn’t there, so as to say "I support the Diamondbacks and we have 4.” That would mean that there would be no movement to show depth for the first option. The shoulder line would just make it seem like the hand is at the height placed rather than depth. So it appears that the Head in Top View would be the best option. Is that correct? I agree that the sizing would be a nice way to show depth, but I can understand Steve’s point about that sort of information being easily lost. This reminds me of superscripts and subscripts. They aren’t generally used in everyday writing, but they are used in math and science, such as x2 and H2O. When written in plain text, they show as x2 and H2O. This even happens with 1st and 2nd being written as 1st and 2nd. I know that in the math case, plain text is often written as x^2 to show that it is superscripted. So I guess that would be like placing the head in top view to show depth in plain text and then using sizing to show it in rich text? An interesting thought. ;-) Now on a different tangent, could a fourth option (no including the sizing) be with this side view head?  Would signs written with this be written to fit that view, or would they stay in Front View? Adam On Apr 22, 2021, at 10:13 AM, Valerie Sutton wrote: SignWrting ListApril 22, 2021 Hello Adam, Andre, Cherie, Kacio, Steve, Jonathan and everyone - Thank you for your messages and diagrams about "writing depth”. What wonderful messages you all posted, There are so many ways to write this... And thank you Adam, for the two videos posted yesterday. They helped me a lot ;-) As you know, the Top View can be mixed with the Front View. The Head in Top View establishes the “depth” but the rest of the sign .. the hands, the movements … can be written in the Front View, placed either near or far from the Head & body. It sounds crazy, but this combination of viewpoints seems to be working for readers. The Front View also works with the Shoulder Line. It is clear that the second handshape is “far away” because of the Movement Arrow putting it there at the end of the movement. See diagram: <3 Ways To Write Depth v1.jpg> And looking at the above diagram I can see other ways to write it too. So there are a variety of choices. For me, the Movement Arrow gives me the depth information, but if you do not want to use an arrow, then the old “sizes” work very well. Originally SignWriting was designed to keep the writing ALL Front View, using "size of symbols" to write the depth perspective of “far away”. Smaller symbols represented “far away”. This would work well with video transcription, such as Amit Moryossef’s amazing software representation of a stick figure on a video: https://youtu.be/pCKRWSNIaNQ So originally, the general “Movement Writing” system was designed without mixing viewpoints within one sign.  I want to thank Steve Slevinski for his posting about CSS Styling strings and the fact that Steve’s styling strings make it possible in software to change the size of symbols, and thank you Steve, for SignMaker 2017  and thank you, Jonathan, for the Quick SignEditor programs that are implementing those styling strings right now. I am grateful for your efforts and I hope to use the size differences now to write a technical document about these issues. I am aware of the point, that Rich Text is great for individual documents or signs that can be captured in graphics so the information is not lost, but in an actual symbolset, the information of “small” vs “large” would be lost if it is just plain text. Nonetheless, I am glad to know I can access the smaller symbols in the two programs and I plan to use it for some demonstrations. I have more to share later - hope you all can get up from your computers and do some exercise - it is so easy to sit for hours without realizing we need to move too! Have a great day everyone - Val ;-) ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie SuttonSignWriting List moderatorsutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List:sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Pagehttp://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messageshttp://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie SuttonSignWriting List moderatorsutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List:sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Pagehttp://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messageshttp://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: namesign.png Type: image/png Size: 440 bytes Desc: not available URL: From 000000111c1a7803-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU Thu Apr 22 16:24:11 2021 From: 000000111c1a7803-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU (Cherie Wren) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 20:24:11 +0000 Subject: [Sw-l] [SPAM] Re: Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: <7A9944EF-785F-473F-B14F-C7F86B39389F@SIGNWRITING.ORG> References: <2FC8FC1F-461B-4ED2-B726-8A332F4BD08A@gmail.com> <547AE4F1-07F4-4D1C-B694-A34A197D2144@signwriting.org> <2ABE1B97-D8D3-456B-861C-79390B5F7B91@gmail.com> <7A9944EF-785F-473F-B14F-C7F86B39389F@SIGNWRITING.ORG> Message-ID: <424934123.2887082.1619123051525@mail.yahoo.com> ooops, should have read all my emails before I replied.... :smile: On Thursday, April 22, 2021, 01:14:26 PM EDT, Valerie Sutton wrote: SignWrting ListApril 22, 2021 Hello Adam, Andre, Cherie, Kacio, Steve, Jonathan and everyone - Thank you for your messages and diagrams about "writing depth”. What wonderful messages you all posted, There are so many ways to write this... And thank you Adam, for the two videos posted yesterday. They helped me a lot ;-) As you know, the Top View can be mixed with the Front View. The Head in Top View establishes the “depth” but the rest of the sign .. the hands, the movements … can be written in the Front View, placed either near or far from the Head & body. It sounds crazy, but this combination of viewpoints seems to be working for readers. The Front View also works with the Shoulder Line. It is clear that the second handshape is “far away” because of the Movement Arrow putting it there at the end of the movement. See diagram: And looking at the above diagram I can see other ways to write it too. So there are a variety of choices. For me, the Movement Arrow gives me the depth information, but if you do not want to use an arrow, then the old “sizes” work very well. Originally SignWriting was designed to keep the writing ALL Front View, using "size of symbols" to write the depth perspective of “far away”. Smaller symbols represented “far away”. This would work well with video transcription, such as Amit Moryossef’s amazing software representation of a stick figure on a video: https://youtu.be/pCKRWSNIaNQ So originally, the general “Movement Writing” system was designed without mixing viewpoints within one sign.  I want to thank Steve Slevinski for his posting about CSS Styling strings and the fact that Steve’s styling strings make it possible in software to change the size of symbols, and thank you Steve, for SignMaker 2017  and thank you, Jonathan, for the Quick SignEditor programs that are implementing those styling strings right now. I am grateful for your efforts and I hope to use the size differences now to write a technical document about these issues. I am aware of the point, that Rich Text is great for individual documents or signs that can be captured in graphics so the information is not lost, but in an actual symbolset, the information of “small” vs “large” would be lost if it is just plain text. Nonetheless, I am glad to know I can access the smaller symbols in the two programs and I plan to use it for some demonstrations. I have more to share later - hope you all can get up from your computers and do some exercise - it is so easy to sit for hours without realizing we need to move too! Have a great day everyone - Val ;-) ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie SuttonSignWriting List moderatorsutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List:sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Pagehttp://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messageshttp://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: Amit Moryossef.png Type: image/png Size: 134749 bytes Desc: not available URL: From icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM Thu Apr 22 16:29:16 2021 From: icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM (Adam Frost) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 13:29:16 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] [SPAM] Re: Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: <424934123.2887082.1619123051525@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2FC8FC1F-461B-4ED2-B726-8A332F4BD08A@gmail.com> <547AE4F1-07F4-4D1C-B694-A34A197D2144@signwriting.org> <2ABE1B97-D8D3-456B-861C-79390B5F7B91@gmail.com> <7A9944EF-785F-473F-B14F-C7F86B39389F@SIGNWRITING.ORG> <424934123.2887082.1619123051525@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: It happens to the best of us. ;-) So I have a question for you. How would you write the same sentence without the ending with 5? There wouldn’t be any movement going outward to end with the 5. It would end with the 4 close to the chest. Conversely, how would you write the sentence if only the other teams score was given, with the 5 farther away? Adam > On Apr 22, 2021, at 1:24 PM, Cherie Wren <000000111c1a7803-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU> wrote: > > ooops, should have read all my emails before I replied.... :smile: > > On Thursday, April 22, 2021, 01:14:26 PM EDT, Valerie Sutton wrote: > > > SignWrting List > April 22, 2021 > > Hello Adam, Andre, Cherie, Kacio, Steve, Jonathan and everyone - > > Thank you for your messages and diagrams about "writing depth”. What wonderful messages you all posted, There are so many ways to write this... > > And thank you Adam, for the two videos posted yesterday. They helped me a lot ;-) > > As you know, the Top View can be mixed with the Front View. The Head in Top View establishes the “depth” but the rest of the sign .. the hands, the movements … can be written in the Front View, placed either near or far from the Head & body. It sounds crazy, but this combination of viewpoints seems to be working for readers. > > The Front View also works with the Shoulder Line. It is clear that the second handshape is “far away” because of the Movement Arrow putting it there at the end of the movement. See diagram: > > <3 Ways To Write Depth v1.jpg> > > And looking at the above diagram I can see other ways to write it too. So there are a variety of choices. For me, the Movement Arrow gives me the depth information, but if you do not want to use an arrow, then the old “sizes” work very well. > > Originally SignWriting was designed to keep the writing ALL Front View, using "size of symbols" to write the depth perspective of “far away”. Smaller symbols represented “far away”. > > > > > This would work well with video transcription, such as Amit Moryossef’s amazing software representation of a stick figure on a video: > > > > https://youtu.be/pCKRWSNIaNQ > > > So originally, the general “Movement Writing” system was designed without mixing viewpoints within one sign. > > I want to thank Steve Slevinski for his posting about CSS Styling strings and the fact that Steve’s styling strings make it possible in software to change the size of symbols, and thank you Steve, for SignMaker 2017 and thank you, Jonathan, for the Quick SignEditor programs that are implementing those styling strings right now. I am grateful for your efforts and I hope to use the size differences now to write a technical document about these issues. > > I am aware of the point, that Rich Text is great for individual documents or signs that can be captured in graphics so the information is not lost, but in an actual symbolset, the information of “small” vs “large” would be lost if it is just plain text. > > Nonetheless, I am glad to know I can access the smaller symbols in the two programs and I plan to use it for some demonstrations. > > I have more to share later - hope you all can get up from your computers and do some exercise - it is so easy to sit for hours without realizing we need to move too! > > Have a great day everyone - > > Val ;-) > > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 <3 Ways To Write Depth v1.jpg> > ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: namesign.png Type: image/png Size: 440 bytes Desc: not available URL: From icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM Thu Apr 22 16:30:08 2021 From: icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM (Adam Frost) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 13:30:08 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: <7A9944EF-785F-473F-B14F-C7F86B39389F@SIGNWRITING.ORG> References: <2FC8FC1F-461B-4ED2-B726-8A332F4BD08A@gmail.com> <547AE4F1-07F4-4D1C-B694-A34A197D2144@signwriting.org> <2ABE1B97-D8D3-456B-861C-79390B5F7B91@gmail.com> <7A9944EF-785F-473F-B14F-C7F86B39389F@SIGNWRITING.ORG> Message-ID: <892F1D03-1305-45AC-A495-18967A86F08E@gmail.com> I’m not sure about this approach of showing depth as it uses symbols for a new purpose. It came about as I was explaining the idea of sizing to show depth to another writer. The idea is that the line under the sign is longer for signs that are closer and shorter for signs that are farther. One advantage is that it is simple while staying in Front View and doesn’t have the idea of being in Top View without actually switching to it. My guess is that this would only be necessary when signs are made in depth without traveling to get into that depth, which would be simple enough to show with movement arrows. If I recall correctly, the line under the sign has been purposed to be a way of marking proper names. By Stefan, I believe. I’ve never felt the need to include that type of information myself, but this might conflict with that idea. Hmm... Adam > On Apr 22, 2021, at 10:13 AM, Valerie Sutton wrote: > > SignWrting List > April 22, 2021 > > Hello Adam, Andre, Cherie, Kacio, Steve, Jonathan and everyone - > > Thank you for your messages and diagrams about "writing depth”. What wonderful messages you all posted, There are so many ways to write this... > > And thank you Adam, for the two videos posted yesterday. They helped me a lot ;-) > > As you know, the Top View can be mixed with the Front View. The Head in Top View establishes the “depth” but the rest of the sign .. the hands, the movements … can be written in the Front View, placed either near or far from the Head & body. It sounds crazy, but this combination of viewpoints seems to be working for readers. > > The Front View also works with the Shoulder Line. It is clear that the second handshape is “far away” because of the Movement Arrow putting it there at the end of the movement. See diagram: > > <3 Ways To Write Depth v1.jpg> > > And looking at the above diagram I can see other ways to write it too. So there are a variety of choices. For me, the Movement Arrow gives me the depth information, but if you do not want to use an arrow, then the old “sizes” work very well. > > Originally SignWriting was designed to keep the writing ALL Front View, using "size of symbols" to write the depth perspective of “far away”. Smaller symbols represented “far away”. > > > > > This would work well with video transcription, such as Amit Moryossef’s amazing software representation of a stick figure on a video: > > > > https://youtu.be/pCKRWSNIaNQ > > > So originally, the general “Movement Writing” system was designed without mixing viewpoints within one sign. > > I want to thank Steve Slevinski for his posting about CSS Styling strings and the fact that Steve’s styling strings make it possible in software to change the size of symbols, and thank you Steve, for SignMaker 2017 and thank you, Jonathan, for the Quick SignEditor programs that are implementing those styling strings right now. I am grateful for your efforts and I hope to use the size differences now to write a technical document about these issues. > > I am aware of the point, that Rich Text is great for individual documents or signs that can be captured in graphics so the information is not lost, but in an actual symbolset, the information of “small” vs “large” would be lost if it is just plain text. > > Nonetheless, I am glad to know I can access the smaller symbols in the two programs and I plan to use it for some demonstrations. > > I have more to share later - hope you all can get up from your computers and do some exercise - it is so easy to sit for hours without realizing we need to move too! > > Have a great day everyone - > > Val ;-) > > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: namesign.png Type: image/png Size: 440 bytes Desc: not available URL: From 000000111c1a7803-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU Thu Apr 22 16:41:22 2021 From: 000000111c1a7803-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU (Cherie Wren) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 20:41:22 +0000 Subject: [Sw-l] [SPAM] Re: Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: References: <2FC8FC1F-461B-4ED2-B726-8A332F4BD08A@gmail.com> <547AE4F1-07F4-4D1C-B694-A34A197D2144@signwriting.org> <2ABE1B97-D8D3-456B-861C-79390B5F7B91@gmail.com> <7A9944EF-785F-473F-B14F-C7F86B39389F@SIGNWRITING.ORG> <424934123.2887082.1619123051525@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <231888741.2899076.1619124082605@mail.yahoo.com> I'm trying to thing of a time I've used just one without the other.  If I am talking about one teams score without the other, then I would just place it midway in neutral space.  The only time I do the close/far is when I have two things to talk about.  What makes the close/far situation is that we are combining the numbers with other information.  "I support this team, you support that one, MY team scored 4, your team scored 5."  In English those would be separate utterances, but they can be combined visually in ASL.  The same way we set up people in space and then refer to that space instead of saying their name every time, like we have to do in English.  The use of space is an additional layer of meaning for this...  Does that make sense?  An example of layering that I use sometimes is translating the English, "There is a man over there!!"  Look at all them words!  In ASL it could be MAN signed with one hand and point with the other with a frightened/panicked look on the face. Not sure how I would write that... On Thursday, April 22, 2021, 04:29:37 PM EDT, Adam Frost wrote: It happens to the best of us. ;-) So I have a question for you. How would you write the same sentence without the ending with 5? There wouldn’t be any movement going outward to end with the 5. It would end with the 4 close to the chest. Conversely, how would you write the sentence if only the other teams score was given, with the 5 farther away? Adam On Apr 22, 2021, at 1:24 PM, Cherie Wren <000000111c1a7803-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU> wrote: ooops, should have read all my emails before I replied.... :smile: On Thursday, April 22, 2021, 01:14:26 PM EDT, Valerie Sutton wrote: SignWrting ListApril 22, 2021 Hello Adam, Andre, Cherie, Kacio, Steve, Jonathan and everyone - Thank you for your messages and diagrams about "writing depth”. What wonderful messages you all posted, There are so many ways to write this... And thank you Adam, for the two videos posted yesterday. They helped me a lot ;-) As you know, the Top View can be mixed with the Front View. The Head in Top View establishes the “depth” but the rest of the sign .. the hands, the movements … can be written in the Front View, placed either near or far from the Head & body. It sounds crazy, but this combination of viewpoints seems to be working for readers. The Front View also works with the Shoulder Line. It is clear that the second handshape is “far away” because of the Movement Arrow putting it there at the end of the movement. See diagram: <3 Ways To Write Depth v1.jpg> And looking at the above diagram I can see other ways to write it too. So there are a variety of choices. For me, the Movement Arrow gives me the depth information, but if you do not want to use an arrow, then the old “sizes” work very well. Originally SignWriting was designed to keep the writing ALL Front View, using "size of symbols" to write the depth perspective of “far away”. Smaller symbols represented “far away”. This would work well with video transcription, such as Amit Moryossef’s amazing software representation of a stick figure on a video: https://youtu.be/pCKRWSNIaNQ So originally, the general “Movement Writing” system was designed without mixing viewpoints within one sign.  I want to thank Steve Slevinski for his posting about CSS Styling strings and the fact that Steve’s styling strings make it possible in software to change the size of symbols, and thank you Steve, for SignMaker 2017  and thank you, Jonathan, for the Quick SignEditor programs that are implementing those styling strings right now. I am grateful for your efforts and I hope to use the size differences now to write a technical document about these issues. I am aware of the point, that Rich Text is great for individual documents or signs that can be captured in graphics so the information is not lost, but in an actual symbolset, the information of “small” vs “large” would be lost if it is just plain text. Nonetheless, I am glad to know I can access the smaller symbols in the two programs and I plan to use it for some demonstrations. I have more to share later - hope you all can get up from your computers and do some exercise - it is so easy to sit for hours without realizing we need to move too! Have a great day everyone - Val ;-) ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie SuttonSignWriting List moderatorsutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List:sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Pagehttp://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messageshttp://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie SuttonSignWriting List moderatorsutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List:sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Pagehttp://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messageshttp://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1<3 Ways To Write Depth v1.jpg> ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie SuttonSignWriting List moderatorsutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List:sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Pagehttp://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messageshttp://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: namesign.png Type: image/png Size: 440 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG Thu Apr 22 18:48:00 2021 From: sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG (Valerie Sutton) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 15:48:00 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: <892F1D03-1305-45AC-A495-18967A86F08E@gmail.com> References: <2FC8FC1F-461B-4ED2-B726-8A332F4BD08A@gmail.com> <547AE4F1-07F4-4D1C-B694-A34A197D2144@signwriting.org> <2ABE1B97-D8D3-456B-861C-79390B5F7B91@gmail.com> <7A9944EF-785F-473F-B14F-C7F86B39389F@SIGNWRITING.ORG> <892F1D03-1305-45AC-A495-18967A86F08E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <642BCB12-F731-432C-A906-C6E6AEE52B6E@signwriting.org> SignWriting List April 22, 2021 I love this discussion on viewpoints. Back when we were first developing Movement Writing in the 1970’s, I was hopeful we could give the writer a choice of several viewpoints depending on the need of the document, and that all symbols could be used interchangeably from viewpoint to viewpoint. Expressive Viewpoint won because writers expressed that they wanted that viewpoint more than any other. But Receptive is also a fully-developed viewpoint that might be useful for some computer video graphics since when we watch videos we are facing the signer, not standing behind the signer like in Expressive. The Side Wall, Diagonal and Top Views are only partially developed. The Top View is used, as Kacio said, when there is an occasional need for clarity. If we really had a fully-developed Top View, then the Index Finger, for the number 1 in ASL, would be a dot for viewing the fingertip pointing to the ceiling, since the reader is sitting on the ceiling looking down at the signers head ;-) I don’t think most people would want to think of all the fingertips as dots as they are pointing to the ceiling! That is why using the Head Top View as a marker, and then the rest of the writing in the standard Expressive, is much better and it shows depth very well. The Movement Arrows work best for me, if you do not want to use the Top View of the Head. Regarding your lines - the reason that feels good, I assume, is that the longer one is like a Horizon Line, which we use for some Movement Symbols that curve towards the Horizon, which is far away. The 4-hand is further away and therefore hitting the Horizon. Notice how the lines you have placed in this example, are using longer and shorter sizes ;-). So size is still being used… And yes, Stefan Woehrmann developed a way to teach proper names to his Deaf students. Any sign that had an underline was the name of a person I believe - or maybe a proper noun? Is that correct, Stefan? Anyway, thanks for the ideas and thank you for the discussion - Val ;-) ------------ > On Apr 22, 2021, at 1:30 PM, Adam Frost wrote: > > I’m not sure about this approach of showing depth as it uses symbols for a new purpose. It came about as I was explaining the idea of sizing to show depth to another writer. The idea is that the line under the sign is longer for signs that are closer and shorter for signs that are farther. One advantage is that it is simple while staying in Front View and doesn’t have the idea of being in Top View without actually switching to it. My guess is that this would only be necessary when signs are made in depth without traveling to get into that depth, which would be simple enough to show with movement arrows. > > > > If I recall correctly, the line under the sign has been purposed to be a way of marking proper names. By Stefan, I believe. I’ve never felt the need to include that type of information myself, but this might conflict with that idea. Hmm... > > > Adam > >> On Apr 22, 2021, at 10:13 AM, Valerie Sutton > wrote: >> >> SignWrting List >> April 22, 2021 >> >> Hello Adam, Andre, Cherie, Kacio, Steve, Jonathan and everyone - >> >> Thank you for your messages and diagrams about "writing depth”. What wonderful messages you all posted, There are so many ways to write this... >> >> And thank you Adam, for the two videos posted yesterday. They helped me a lot ;-) >> >> As you know, the Top View can be mixed with the Front View. The Head in Top View establishes the “depth” but the rest of the sign .. the hands, the movements … can be written in the Front View, placed either near or far from the Head & body. It sounds crazy, but this combination of viewpoints seems to be working for readers. >> >> The Front View also works with the Shoulder Line. It is clear that the second handshape is “far away” because of the Movement Arrow putting it there at the end of the movement. See diagram: >> >> <3 Ways To Write Depth v1.jpg> >> >> And looking at the above diagram I can see other ways to write it too. So there are a variety of choices. For me, the Movement Arrow gives me the depth information, but if you do not want to use an arrow, then the old “sizes” work very well. >> >> Originally SignWriting was designed to keep the writing ALL Front View, using "size of symbols" to write the depth perspective of “far away”. Smaller symbols represented “far away”. >> >> >> >> >> This would work well with video transcription, such as Amit Moryossef’s amazing software representation of a stick figure on a video: >> >> >> >> https://youtu.be/pCKRWSNIaNQ >> >> >> So originally, the general “Movement Writing” system was designed without mixing viewpoints within one sign. >> >> I want to thank Steve Slevinski for his posting about CSS Styling strings and the fact that Steve’s styling strings make it possible in software to change the size of symbols, and thank you Steve, for SignMaker 2017 and thank you, Jonathan, for the Quick SignEditor programs that are implementing those styling strings right now. I am grateful for your efforts and I hope to use the size differences now to write a technical document about these issues. >> >> I am aware of the point, that Rich Text is great for individual documents or signs that can be captured in graphics so the information is not lost, but in an actual symbolset, the information of “small” vs “large” would be lost if it is just plain text. >> >> Nonetheless, I am glad to know I can access the smaller symbols in the two programs and I plan to use it for some demonstrations. >> >> I have more to share later - hope you all can get up from your computers and do some exercise - it is so easy to sit for hours without realizing we need to move too! >> >> Have a great day everyone - >> >> Val ;-) >> >> ________________________________________________ >> >> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >> >> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: namesign.png Type: image/png Size: 440 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sutton at DANCEWRITING.ORG Thu Apr 22 18:59:03 2021 From: sutton at DANCEWRITING.ORG (Valerie Sutton) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 15:59:03 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] [SPAM] Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: <231888741.2899076.1619124082605@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2FC8FC1F-461B-4ED2-B726-8A332F4BD08A@gmail.com> <547AE4F1-07F4-4D1C-B694-A34A197D2144@signwriting.org> <2ABE1B97-D8D3-456B-861C-79390B5F7B91@gmail.com> <7A9944EF-785F-473F-B14F-C7F86B39389F@SIGNWRITING.ORG> <424934123.2887082.1619123051525@mail.yahoo.com> <231888741.2899076.1619124082605@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <31764764-65FA-4376-B064-952D2676E7C0@dancewriting.org> SignWriting List April 22, 2021 Thanks for your emails Cherie - it is really great to hear from you. I think I see your point, which I too have thought about. Maybe the Movement Arrows moving the 5 Hand into the 4 Hand could not be used to show depth, if both hands are “placed in space”, almost like a classifier, without the movement in-between - that kind of situation, where a movment between the two hands cannot be used, does really feel like it needs two sizes… like “setting up” two people in space - one far away and one closer - that would not use Movement Arrows - then maybe the Top View is necessary and placing the two people in space is one sign where both hands arrive at their destination at the same time - one far from the Tope View Head and one close to the body - So Adam is this where you would use the two lines? I am going to search for an old document I have on writing classifiers that were a little like this - but we were using sizes - Thanks again - and have a great evening - Val ;-) ---------- > On Apr 22, 2021, at 1:41 PM, Cherie Wren <000000111c1a7803-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU> wrote: > > I'm trying to thing of a time I've used just one without the other. If I am talking about one teams score without the other, then I would just place it midway in neutral space. The only time I do the close/far is when I have two things to talk about. What makes the close/far situation is that we are combining the numbers with other information. "I support this team, you support that one, MY team scored 4, your team scored 5." In English those would be separate utterances, but they can be combined visually in ASL. The same way we set up people in space and then refer to that space instead of saying their name every time, like we have to do in English. The use of space is an additional layer of meaning for this... Does that make sense? An example of layering that I use sometimes is translating the English, "There is a man over there!!" Look at all them words! In ASL it could be MAN signed with one hand and point with the other with a frightened/panicked look on the face. Not sure how I would write that... > > On Thursday, April 22, 2021, 04:29:37 PM EDT, Adam Frost wrote: > > > It happens to the best of us. ;-) > > So I have a question for you. How would you write the same sentence without the ending with 5? There wouldn’t be any movement going outward to end with the 5. It would end with the 4 close to the chest. > > Conversely, how would you write the sentence if only the other teams score was given, with the 5 farther away? > > > Adam > >> On Apr 22, 2021, at 1:24 PM, Cherie Wren <000000111c1a7803-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU > wrote: >> >> ooops, should have read all my emails before I replied.... :smile: >> >> On Thursday, April 22, 2021, 01:14:26 PM EDT, Valerie Sutton > wrote: >> >> >> SignWrting List >> April 22, 2021 >> >> Hello Adam, Andre, Cherie, Kacio, Steve, Jonathan and everyone - >> >> Thank you for your messages and diagrams about "writing depth”. What wonderful messages you all posted, There are so many ways to write this... >> >> And thank you Adam, for the two videos posted yesterday. They helped me a lot ;-) >> >> As you know, the Top View can be mixed with the Front View. The Head in Top View establishes the “depth” but the rest of the sign .. the hands, the movements … can be written in the Front View, placed either near or far from the Head & body. It sounds crazy, but this combination of viewpoints seems to be working for readers. >> >> The Front View also works with the Shoulder Line. It is clear that the second handshape is “far away” because of the Movement Arrow putting it there at the end of the movement. See diagram: >> >> <3 Ways To Write Depth v1.jpg> >> >> And looking at the above diagram I can see other ways to write it too. So there are a variety of choices. For me, the Movement Arrow gives me the depth information, but if you do not want to use an arrow, then the old “sizes” work very well. >> >> Originally SignWriting was designed to keep the writing ALL Front View, using "size of symbols" to write the depth perspective of “far away”. Smaller symbols represented “far away”. >> >> >> >> >> This would work well with video transcription, such as Amit Moryossef’s amazing software representation of a stick figure on a video: >> >> >> >> https://youtu.be/pCKRWSNIaNQ >> >> >> So originally, the general “Movement Writing” system was designed without mixing viewpoints within one sign. >> >> I want to thank Steve Slevinski for his posting about CSS Styling strings and the fact that Steve’s styling strings make it possible in software to change the size of symbols, and thank you Steve, for SignMaker 2017 and thank you, Jonathan, for the Quick SignEditor programs that are implementing those styling strings right now. I am grateful for your efforts and I hope to use the size differences now to write a technical document about these issues. >> >> I am aware of the point, that Rich Text is great for individual documents or signs that can be captured in graphics so the information is not lost, but in an actual symbolset, the information of “small” vs “large” would be lost if it is just plain text. >> >> Nonetheless, I am glad to know I can access the smaller symbols in the two programs and I plan to use it for some demonstrations. >> >> I have more to share later - hope you all can get up from your computers and do some exercise - it is so easy to sit for hours without realizing we need to move too! >> >> Have a great day everyone - >> >> Val ;-) >> >> ________________________________________________ >> >> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >> >> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ >> >> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >> >> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 <3 Ways To Write Depth v1.jpg> >> > > > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM Thu Apr 22 19:13:57 2021 From: icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM (Adam Frost) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 16:13:57 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] [SPAM] Re: Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: <231888741.2899076.1619124082605@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2FC8FC1F-461B-4ED2-B726-8A332F4BD08A@gmail.com> <547AE4F1-07F4-4D1C-B694-A34A197D2144@signwriting.org> <2ABE1B97-D8D3-456B-861C-79390B5F7B91@gmail.com> <7A9944EF-785F-473F-B14F-C7F86B39389F@SIGNWRITING.ORG> <424934123.2887082.1619123051525@mail.yahoo.com> <231888741.2899076.1619124082605@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I agree that this doesn’t happen often. The one time I can think of (within the realm of giving sports scores) is when giving an update of a team’s score after they just scored. “Now they have 7”, would just be signed with 7 at the distance. I suspect that there are other cases when it could happen. ;-) I just tried writing your description of “THERE'S A MAN OVER THERE!” And I didn’t feel the need to have depth written. What do you think? Adam > On Apr 22, 2021, at 1:41 PM, Cherie Wren <000000111c1a7803-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU> wrote: > > I'm trying to thing of a time I've used just one without the other. If I am talking about one teams score without the other, then I would just place it midway in neutral space. The only time I do the close/far is when I have two things to talk about. What makes the close/far situation is that we are combining the numbers with other information. "I support this team, you support that one, MY team scored 4, your team scored 5." In English those would be separate utterances, but they can be combined visually in ASL. The same way we set up people in space and then refer to that space instead of saying their name every time, like we have to do in English. The use of space is an additional layer of meaning for this... Does that make sense? An example of layering that I use sometimes is translating the English, "There is a man over there!!" Look at all them words! In ASL it could be MAN signed with one hand and point with the other with a frightened/panicked look on the face. Not sure how I would write that... > > On Thursday, April 22, 2021, 04:29:37 PM EDT, Adam Frost wrote: > > > It happens to the best of us. ;-) > > So I have a question for you. How would you write the same sentence without the ending with 5? There wouldn’t be any movement going outward to end with the 5. It would end with the 4 close to the chest. > > Conversely, how would you write the sentence if only the other teams score was given, with the 5 farther away? > > > Adam > >> On Apr 22, 2021, at 1:24 PM, Cherie Wren <000000111c1a7803-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU > wrote: >> >> ooops, should have read all my emails before I replied.... :smile: >> >> On Thursday, April 22, 2021, 01:14:26 PM EDT, Valerie Sutton > wrote: >> >> >> SignWrting List >> April 22, 2021 >> >> Hello Adam, Andre, Cherie, Kacio, Steve, Jonathan and everyone - >> >> Thank you for your messages and diagrams about "writing depth”. What wonderful messages you all posted, There are so many ways to write this... >> >> And thank you Adam, for the two videos posted yesterday. They helped me a lot ;-) >> >> As you know, the Top View can be mixed with the Front View. The Head in Top View establishes the “depth” but the rest of the sign .. the hands, the movements … can be written in the Front View, placed either near or far from the Head & body. It sounds crazy, but this combination of viewpoints seems to be working for readers. >> >> The Front View also works with the Shoulder Line. It is clear that the second handshape is “far away” because of the Movement Arrow putting it there at the end of the movement. See diagram: >> >> <3 Ways To Write Depth v1.jpg> >> >> And looking at the above diagram I can see other ways to write it too. So there are a variety of choices. For me, the Movement Arrow gives me the depth information, but if you do not want to use an arrow, then the old “sizes” work very well. >> >> Originally SignWriting was designed to keep the writing ALL Front View, using "size of symbols" to write the depth perspective of “far away”. Smaller symbols represented “far away”. >> >> >> >> >> This would work well with video transcription, such as Amit Moryossef’s amazing software representation of a stick figure on a video: >> >> >> >> https://youtu.be/pCKRWSNIaNQ >> >> >> So originally, the general “Movement Writing” system was designed without mixing viewpoints within one sign. >> >> I want to thank Steve Slevinski for his posting about CSS Styling strings and the fact that Steve’s styling strings make it possible in software to change the size of symbols, and thank you Steve, for SignMaker 2017 and thank you, Jonathan, for the Quick SignEditor programs that are implementing those styling strings right now. I am grateful for your efforts and I hope to use the size differences now to write a technical document about these issues. >> >> I am aware of the point, that Rich Text is great for individual documents or signs that can be captured in graphics so the information is not lost, but in an actual symbolset, the information of “small” vs “large” would be lost if it is just plain text. >> >> Nonetheless, I am glad to know I can access the smaller symbols in the two programs and I plan to use it for some demonstrations. >> >> I have more to share later - hope you all can get up from your computers and do some exercise - it is so easy to sit for hours without realizing we need to move too! >> >> Have a great day everyone - >> >> Val ;-) >> >> ________________________________________________ >> >> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >> >> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ >> >> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >> >> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 <3 Ways To Write Depth v1.jpg> >> > > > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: namesign.png Type: image/png Size: 440 bytes Desc: not available URL: From icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM Thu Apr 22 19:32:23 2021 From: icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM (Adam Frost) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 16:32:23 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] [SPAM] Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: <31764764-65FA-4376-B064-952D2676E7C0@dancewriting.org> References: <2FC8FC1F-461B-4ED2-B726-8A332F4BD08A@gmail.com> <547AE4F1-07F4-4D1C-B694-A34A197D2144@signwriting.org> <2ABE1B97-D8D3-456B-861C-79390B5F7B91@gmail.com> <7A9944EF-785F-473F-B14F-C7F86B39389F@SIGNWRITING.ORG> <424934123.2887082.1619123051525@mail.yahoo.com> <231888741.2899076.1619124082605@mail.yahoo.com> <31764764-65FA-4376-B064-952D2676E7C0@dancewriting.org> Message-ID: That is actually an interesting thought about the placement of two people in space. I hadn’t really thought of trying the lines that way, although I don’t see why it couldn’t be used in that way. This is probably how I would have tried writing that concept without changing view points before the line being used. It doesn’t tell how far they are apart or even that they are on the same level with one in front of the other rather than one above the other. However, if I used the lines, it might look like this. Kind of interesting how there is the possibility of detailing how much distance is between this way. Much like the Top View as well. I am not sure if this is “the” solution in the cases when this might be necessary, but I could actually see it being possible. Still letting it marinate for the movement. ;-) Adam > On Apr 22, 2021, at 3:59 PM, Valerie Sutton wrote: > > SignWriting List > April 22, 2021 > > Thanks for your emails Cherie - it is really great to hear from you. > > I think I see your point, which I too have thought about. Maybe the Movement Arrows moving the 5 Hand into the 4 Hand could not be used to show depth, if both hands are “placed in space”, almost like a classifier, without the movement in-between - that kind of situation, where a movment between the two hands cannot be used, does really feel like it needs two sizes… like “setting up” two people in space - one far away and one closer - that would not use Movement Arrows - then maybe the Top View is necessary and placing the two people in space is one sign where both hands arrive at their destination at the same time - one far from the Tope View Head and one close to the body - > > So Adam is this where you would use the two lines? > > I am going to search for an old document I have on writing classifiers that were a little like this - but we were using sizes - > > Thanks again - and have a great evening - > > Val ;-) > > ---------- > > > >> On Apr 22, 2021, at 1:41 PM, Cherie Wren <000000111c1a7803-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU > wrote: >> >> I'm trying to thing of a time I've used just one without the other. If I am talking about one teams score without the other, then I would just place it midway in neutral space. The only time I do the close/far is when I have two things to talk about. What makes the close/far situation is that we are combining the numbers with other information. "I support this team, you support that one, MY team scored 4, your team scored 5." In English those would be separate utterances, but they can be combined visually in ASL. The same way we set up people in space and then refer to that space instead of saying their name every time, like we have to do in English. The use of space is an additional layer of meaning for this... Does that make sense? An example of layering that I use sometimes is translating the English, "There is a man over there!!" Look at all them words! In ASL it could be MAN signed with one hand and point with the other with a frightened/panicked look on the face. Not sure how I would write that... >> >> On Thursday, April 22, 2021, 04:29:37 PM EDT, Adam Frost > wrote: >> >> >> It happens to the best of us. ;-) >> >> So I have a question for you. How would you write the same sentence without the ending with 5? There wouldn’t be any movement going outward to end with the 5. It would end with the 4 close to the chest. >> >> Conversely, how would you write the sentence if only the other teams score was given, with the 5 farther away? >> >> >> Adam >> >>> On Apr 22, 2021, at 1:24 PM, Cherie Wren <000000111c1a7803-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU > wrote: >>> >>> ooops, should have read all my emails before I replied.... :smile: >>> >>> On Thursday, April 22, 2021, 01:14:26 PM EDT, Valerie Sutton > wrote: >>> >>> >>> SignWrting List >>> April 22, 2021 >>> >>> Hello Adam, Andre, Cherie, Kacio, Steve, Jonathan and everyone - >>> >>> Thank you for your messages and diagrams about "writing depth”. What wonderful messages you all posted, There are so many ways to write this... >>> >>> And thank you Adam, for the two videos posted yesterday. They helped me a lot ;-) >>> >>> As you know, the Top View can be mixed with the Front View. The Head in Top View establishes the “depth” but the rest of the sign .. the hands, the movements … can be written in the Front View, placed either near or far from the Head & body. It sounds crazy, but this combination of viewpoints seems to be working for readers. >>> >>> The Front View also works with the Shoulder Line. It is clear that the second handshape is “far away” because of the Movement Arrow putting it there at the end of the movement. See diagram: >>> >>> <3 Ways To Write Depth v1.jpg> >>> >>> And looking at the above diagram I can see other ways to write it too. So there are a variety of choices. For me, the Movement Arrow gives me the depth information, but if you do not want to use an arrow, then the old “sizes” work very well. >>> >>> Originally SignWriting was designed to keep the writing ALL Front View, using "size of symbols" to write the depth perspective of “far away”. Smaller symbols represented “far away”. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> This would work well with video transcription, such as Amit Moryossef’s amazing software representation of a stick figure on a video: >>> >>> >>> >>> https://youtu.be/pCKRWSNIaNQ >>> >>> >>> So originally, the general “Movement Writing” system was designed without mixing viewpoints within one sign. >>> >>> I want to thank Steve Slevinski for his posting about CSS Styling strings and the fact that Steve’s styling strings make it possible in software to change the size of symbols, and thank you Steve, for SignMaker 2017 and thank you, Jonathan, for the Quick SignEditor programs that are implementing those styling strings right now. I am grateful for your efforts and I hope to use the size differences now to write a technical document about these issues. >>> >>> I am aware of the point, that Rich Text is great for individual documents or signs that can be captured in graphics so the information is not lost, but in an actual symbolset, the information of “small” vs “large” would be lost if it is just plain text. >>> >>> Nonetheless, I am glad to know I can access the smaller symbols in the two programs and I plan to use it for some demonstrations. >>> >>> I have more to share later - hope you all can get up from your computers and do some exercise - it is so easy to sit for hours without realizing we need to move too! >>> >>> Have a great day everyone - >>> >>> Val ;-) >>> >>> ________________________________________________ >>> >>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>> >>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ >>> >>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>> >>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 <3 Ways To Write Depth v1.jpg> >>> >> >> >> ________________________________________________ >> >> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >> >> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ >> >> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >> >> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >> > > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: namesign.png Type: image/png Size: 440 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG Fri Apr 23 10:02:04 2021 From: sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG (Valerie Sutton) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 07:02:04 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] Book Gazette Spring 2021 References: <20210317143239.5780240DFA78C@mail.benjamins.nl> Message-ID: <97095962-968A-4BB9-A499-7BAB6B3CE563@signwriting.org> SignWriting List April 23, 2021 > From: John Benjamins Publishing - Marketing dept. > Subject: Book Gazette Spring 2021 > Date: March 17, 2021 at 7:32:39 AM PDT > Due to the COVID-19 pandemic the postal services are under great pressure and suffer delays worldwide. Therefore we have decided to spread the latest Book Gazette both by post and email this time. You can find the link to the PDF version here: > > https://benjamins.com/downloads/catalogs/bg.2021.spring.usd.pdf > Our monthly e-newsletter also provides the link to the latest Book Gazette twice a year: benjamins.com/newsletter > We hope you will enjoy browsing the contents and we thank you for your interest and commitment. > > With best regards, and keep safe! > > John Benjamins Publishing Company > Marketing Department > > https://benjamins.com > info at benjamins.nl > Tel: +31.20.6304747 > ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG Fri Apr 23 10:13:56 2021 From: sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG (Valerie Sutton) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 07:13:56 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: References: <2FC8FC1F-461B-4ED2-B726-8A332F4BD08A@gmail.com> <547AE4F1-07F4-4D1C-B694-A34A197D2144@signwriting.org> <2ABE1B97-D8D3-456B-861C-79390B5F7B91@gmail.com> <7A9944EF-785F-473F-B14F-C7F86B39389F@SIGNWRITING.ORG> <424934123.2887082.1619123051525@mail.yahoo.com> <231888741.2899076.1619124082605@mail.yahoo.com> <31764764-65FA-4376-B064-952D2676E7C0@dancewriting.org> Message-ID: <0A386363-75E9-4079-B3FE-C9936E60D3DF@signwriting.org> SignWriting List April 23, 2021 Actually, Adam, the lines you show in this email, with the longer one closer to the chest, feels like the concept of the Raked Stage, which our Movement Writing system was built on. Back in 1974 in Denmark I was teaching a troupe of ballet dancers DanceWriting, in Tivoli Gardens during the summer, and we would congregate for the class I was teaching on the stage that they would perform on, that evening. And the very old stage at Tivoli Gardens was hundreds of years old, and it was “raked”, meaning slanted down towards the audience. So I was sitting in the front seat of the audience looking at the dancers on stage, and the slant brought them closer to me in the audience. So the writing system was designed to write on a Raked Stage, so that the reader, in the audience, sees anything closer to the reader a little larger on a slant. So you followed that theme perfectly with your invention of the longer line being “closer to the reader’s chest”. So I really like this for “positions” of one hand close and one hand far, both “placed” in those positions. But, if there is a movement between them, and this is all the right hand and it is not a right hand close and a left hand far - then I need a Movement Arrow. How can I know which position started the movement without an arrow? Did you start in the back or did you start in the front? So for positioning or placing two hands for depth I love the “Depth Lines” if they are different hands - Those are my thoughts ;-) Thank you for working on this - Thanks for the Depth Lines! Val ;-) ——— > On Apr 22, 2021, at 4:32 PM, Adam Frost wrote: > > That is actually an interesting thought about the placement of two people in space. I hadn’t really thought of trying the lines that way, although I don’t see why it couldn’t be used in that way. > > This is probably how I would have tried writing that concept without changing view points before the line being used. > > > > It doesn’t tell how far they are apart or even that they are on the same level with one in front of the other rather than one above the other. However, if I used the lines, it might look like this. > > > > Kind of interesting how there is the possibility of detailing how much distance is between this way. Much like the Top View as well. > > I am not sure if this is “the” solution in the cases when this might be necessary, but I could actually see it being possible. Still letting it marinate for the movement. ;-) > > > Adam > >> On Apr 22, 2021, at 3:59 PM, Valerie Sutton > wrote: >> >> SignWriting List >> April 22, 2021 >> >> Thanks for your emails Cherie - it is really great to hear from you. >> >> I think I see your point, which I too have thought about. Maybe the Movement Arrows moving the 5 Hand into the 4 Hand could not be used to show depth, if both hands are “placed in space”, almost like a classifier, without the movement in-between - that kind of situation, where a movment between the two hands cannot be used, does really feel like it needs two sizes… like “setting up” two people in space - one far away and one closer - that would not use Movement Arrows - then maybe the Top View is necessary and placing the two people in space is one sign where both hands arrive at their destination at the same time - one far from the Tope View Head and one close to the body - >> >> So Adam is this where you would use the two lines? >> >> I am going to search for an old document I have on writing classifiers that were a little like this - but we were using sizes - >> >> Thanks again - and have a great evening - >> >> Val ;-) >> >> ---------- >> >> >> >>> On Apr 22, 2021, at 1:41 PM, Cherie Wren <000000111c1a7803-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU > wrote: >>> >>> I'm trying to thing of a time I've used just one without the other. If I am talking about one teams score without the other, then I would just place it midway in neutral space. The only time I do the close/far is when I have two things to talk about. What makes the close/far situation is that we are combining the numbers with other information. "I support this team, you support that one, MY team scored 4, your team scored 5." In English those would be separate utterances, but they can be combined visually in ASL. The same way we set up people in space and then refer to that space instead of saying their name every time, like we have to do in English. The use of space is an additional layer of meaning for this... Does that make sense? An example of layering that I use sometimes is translating the English, "There is a man over there!!" Look at all them words! In ASL it could be MAN signed with one hand and point with the other with a frightened/panicked look on the face. Not sure how I would write that... >>> >>> On Thursday, April 22, 2021, 04:29:37 PM EDT, Adam Frost > wrote: >>> >>> >>> It happens to the best of us. ;-) >>> >>> So I have a question for you. How would you write the same sentence without the ending with 5? There wouldn’t be any movement going outward to end with the 5. It would end with the 4 close to the chest. >>> >>> Conversely, how would you write the sentence if only the other teams score was given, with the 5 farther away? >>> >>> >>> Adam >>> >>>> On Apr 22, 2021, at 1:24 PM, Cherie Wren <000000111c1a7803-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU > wrote: >>>> >>>> ooops, should have read all my emails before I replied.... :smile: >>>> >>>> On Thursday, April 22, 2021, 01:14:26 PM EDT, Valerie Sutton > wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> SignWrting List >>>> April 22, 2021 >>>> >>>> Hello Adam, Andre, Cherie, Kacio, Steve, Jonathan and everyone - >>>> >>>> Thank you for your messages and diagrams about "writing depth”. What wonderful messages you all posted, There are so many ways to write this... >>>> >>>> And thank you Adam, for the two videos posted yesterday. They helped me a lot ;-) >>>> >>>> As you know, the Top View can be mixed with the Front View. The Head in Top View establishes the “depth” but the rest of the sign .. the hands, the movements … can be written in the Front View, placed either near or far from the Head & body. It sounds crazy, but this combination of viewpoints seems to be working for readers. >>>> >>>> The Front View also works with the Shoulder Line. It is clear that the second handshape is “far away” because of the Movement Arrow putting it there at the end of the movement. See diagram: >>>> >>>> <3 Ways To Write Depth v1.jpg> >>>> >>>> And looking at the above diagram I can see other ways to write it too. So there are a variety of choices. For me, the Movement Arrow gives me the depth information, but if you do not want to use an arrow, then the old “sizes” work very well. >>>> >>>> Originally SignWriting was designed to keep the writing ALL Front View, using "size of symbols" to write the depth perspective of “far away”. Smaller symbols represented “far away”. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> This would work well with video transcription, such as Amit Moryossef’s amazing software representation of a stick figure on a video: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> https://youtu.be/pCKRWSNIaNQ >>>> >>>> >>>> So originally, the general “Movement Writing” system was designed without mixing viewpoints within one sign. >>>> >>>> I want to thank Steve Slevinski for his posting about CSS Styling strings and the fact that Steve’s styling strings make it possible in software to change the size of symbols, and thank you Steve, for SignMaker 2017 and thank you, Jonathan, for the Quick SignEditor programs that are implementing those styling strings right now. I am grateful for your efforts and I hope to use the size differences now to write a technical document about these issues. >>>> >>>> I am aware of the point, that Rich Text is great for individual documents or signs that can be captured in graphics so the information is not lost, but in an actual symbolset, the information of “small” vs “large” would be lost if it is just plain text. >>>> >>>> Nonetheless, I am glad to know I can access the smaller symbols in the two programs and I plan to use it for some demonstrations. >>>> >>>> I have more to share later - hope you all can get up from your computers and do some exercise - it is so easy to sit for hours without realizing we need to move too! >>>> >>>> Have a great day everyone - >>>> >>>> Val ;-) >>>> >>>> ________________________________________________ >>>> >>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>>> >>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ >>>> >>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>>> >>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 <3 Ways To Write Depth v1.jpg> >>>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________________________ >>> >>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>> >>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ >>> >>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>> >>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >>> >> >> ________________________________________________ >> >> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >> >> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: namesign.png Type: image/png Size: 440 bytes Desc: not available URL: From icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM Fri Apr 23 10:40:22 2021 From: icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM (Adam Frost) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 07:40:22 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: <0A386363-75E9-4079-B3FE-C9936E60D3DF@signwriting.org> References: <2FC8FC1F-461B-4ED2-B726-8A332F4BD08A@gmail.com> <547AE4F1-07F4-4D1C-B694-A34A197D2144@signwriting.org> <2ABE1B97-D8D3-456B-861C-79390B5F7B91@gmail.com> <7A9944EF-785F-473F-B14F-C7F86B39389F@SIGNWRITING.ORG> <424934123.2887082.1619123051525@mail.yahoo.com> <231888741.2899076.1619124082605@mail.yahoo.com> <31764764-65FA-4376-B064-952D2676E7C0@dancewriting.org> <0A386363-75E9-4079-B3FE-C9936E60D3DF@signwriting.org> Message-ID: You’re right about the Raked Stage. I noticed that with the last writing with the “Depth Lines” as you aptly called it. I almost wanted to add connecting lines on the side to complete the stage look. Ha! That is an interesting question of showing depth (if it is important for the writing). Let’s say I wanted to make it clear that a person crosses my path close to me and the later another person crosses my path farther up ahead. The line would be longer and shorter to show that distance. Would this be readable? Adam > On Apr 23, 2021, at 7:13 AM, Valerie Sutton wrote: > > SignWriting List > April 23, 2021 > > Actually, Adam, the lines you show in this email, with the longer one closer to the chest, feels like the concept of the Raked Stage, which our Movement Writing system was built on. Back in 1974 in Denmark I was teaching a troupe of ballet dancers DanceWriting, in Tivoli Gardens during the summer, and we would congregate for the class I was teaching on the stage that they would perform on, that evening. And the very old stage at Tivoli Gardens was hundreds of years old, and it was “raked”, meaning slanted down towards the audience. So I was sitting in the front seat of the audience looking at the dancers on stage, and the slant brought them closer to me in the audience. So the writing system was designed to write on a Raked Stage, so that the reader, in the audience, sees anything closer to the reader a little larger on a slant. > > So you followed that theme perfectly with your invention of the longer line being “closer to the reader’s chest”. > > So I really like this for “positions” of one hand close and one hand far, both “placed” in those positions. > > But, if there is a movement between them, and this is all the right hand and it is not a right hand close and a left hand far - then I need a Movement Arrow. How can I know which position started the movement without an arrow? Did you start in the back or did you start in the front? > > So for positioning or placing two hands for depth I love the “Depth Lines” if they are different hands - > > Those are my thoughts ;-) > > Thank you for working on this - Thanks for the Depth Lines! > > Val ;-) > > ——— > > > >> On Apr 22, 2021, at 4:32 PM, Adam Frost > wrote: >> >> That is actually an interesting thought about the placement of two people in space. I hadn’t really thought of trying the lines that way, although I don’t see why it couldn’t be used in that way. >> >> This is probably how I would have tried writing that concept without changing view points before the line being used. >> >> >> >> It doesn’t tell how far they are apart or even that they are on the same level with one in front of the other rather than one above the other. However, if I used the lines, it might look like this. >> >> >> >> Kind of interesting how there is the possibility of detailing how much distance is between this way. Much like the Top View as well. >> >> I am not sure if this is “the” solution in the cases when this might be necessary, but I could actually see it being possible. Still letting it marinate for the movement. ;-) >> >> >> Adam >> >>> On Apr 22, 2021, at 3:59 PM, Valerie Sutton > wrote: >>> >>> SignWriting List >>> April 22, 2021 >>> >>> Thanks for your emails Cherie - it is really great to hear from you. >>> >>> I think I see your point, which I too have thought about. Maybe the Movement Arrows moving the 5 Hand into the 4 Hand could not be used to show depth, if both hands are “placed in space”, almost like a classifier, without the movement in-between - that kind of situation, where a movment between the two hands cannot be used, does really feel like it needs two sizes… like “setting up” two people in space - one far away and one closer - that would not use Movement Arrows - then maybe the Top View is necessary and placing the two people in space is one sign where both hands arrive at their destination at the same time - one far from the Tope View Head and one close to the body - >>> >>> So Adam is this where you would use the two lines? >>> >>> I am going to search for an old document I have on writing classifiers that were a little like this - but we were using sizes - >>> >>> Thanks again - and have a great evening - >>> >>> Val ;-) >>> >>> ---------- >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Apr 22, 2021, at 1:41 PM, Cherie Wren <000000111c1a7803-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU > wrote: >>>> >>>> I'm trying to thing of a time I've used just one without the other. If I am talking about one teams score without the other, then I would just place it midway in neutral space. The only time I do the close/far is when I have two things to talk about. What makes the close/far situation is that we are combining the numbers with other information. "I support this team, you support that one, MY team scored 4, your team scored 5." In English those would be separate utterances, but they can be combined visually in ASL. The same way we set up people in space and then refer to that space instead of saying their name every time, like we have to do in English. The use of space is an additional layer of meaning for this... Does that make sense? An example of layering that I use sometimes is translating the English, "There is a man over there!!" Look at all them words! In ASL it could be MAN signed with one hand and point with the other with a frightened/panicked look on the face. Not sure how I would write that... >>>> >>>> On Thursday, April 22, 2021, 04:29:37 PM EDT, Adam Frost > wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> It happens to the best of us. ;-) >>>> >>>> So I have a question for you. How would you write the same sentence without the ending with 5? There wouldn’t be any movement going outward to end with the 5. It would end with the 4 close to the chest. >>>> >>>> Conversely, how would you write the sentence if only the other teams score was given, with the 5 farther away? >>>> >>>> >>>> Adam >>>> >>>>> On Apr 22, 2021, at 1:24 PM, Cherie Wren <000000111c1a7803-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> ooops, should have read all my emails before I replied.... :smile: >>>>> >>>>> On Thursday, April 22, 2021, 01:14:26 PM EDT, Valerie Sutton > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> SignWrting List >>>>> April 22, 2021 >>>>> >>>>> Hello Adam, Andre, Cherie, Kacio, Steve, Jonathan and everyone - >>>>> >>>>> Thank you for your messages and diagrams about "writing depth”. What wonderful messages you all posted, There are so many ways to write this... >>>>> >>>>> And thank you Adam, for the two videos posted yesterday. They helped me a lot ;-) >>>>> >>>>> As you know, the Top View can be mixed with the Front View. The Head in Top View establishes the “depth” but the rest of the sign .. the hands, the movements … can be written in the Front View, placed either near or far from the Head & body. It sounds crazy, but this combination of viewpoints seems to be working for readers. >>>>> >>>>> The Front View also works with the Shoulder Line. It is clear that the second handshape is “far away” because of the Movement Arrow putting it there at the end of the movement. See diagram: >>>>> >>>>> <3 Ways To Write Depth v1.jpg> >>>>> >>>>> And looking at the above diagram I can see other ways to write it too. So there are a variety of choices. For me, the Movement Arrow gives me the depth information, but if you do not want to use an arrow, then the old “sizes” work very well. >>>>> >>>>> Originally SignWriting was designed to keep the writing ALL Front View, using "size of symbols" to write the depth perspective of “far away”. Smaller symbols represented “far away”. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> This would work well with video transcription, such as Amit Moryossef’s amazing software representation of a stick figure on a video: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> https://youtu.be/pCKRWSNIaNQ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> So originally, the general “Movement Writing” system was designed without mixing viewpoints within one sign. >>>>> >>>>> I want to thank Steve Slevinski for his posting about CSS Styling strings and the fact that Steve’s styling strings make it possible in software to change the size of symbols, and thank you Steve, for SignMaker 2017 and thank you, Jonathan, for the Quick SignEditor programs that are implementing those styling strings right now. I am grateful for your efforts and I hope to use the size differences now to write a technical document about these issues. >>>>> >>>>> I am aware of the point, that Rich Text is great for individual documents or signs that can be captured in graphics so the information is not lost, but in an actual symbolset, the information of “small” vs “large” would be lost if it is just plain text. >>>>> >>>>> Nonetheless, I am glad to know I can access the smaller symbols in the two programs and I plan to use it for some demonstrations. >>>>> >>>>> I have more to share later - hope you all can get up from your computers and do some exercise - it is so easy to sit for hours without realizing we need to move too! >>>>> >>>>> Have a great day everyone - >>>>> >>>>> Val ;-) >>>>> >>>>> ________________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>>>> >>>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>>>> >>>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 <3 Ways To Write Depth v1.jpg> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ________________________________________________ >>>> >>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>>> >>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ >>>> >>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>>> >>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >>>> >>> >>> ________________________________________________ >>> >>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>> >>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >> ________________________________________________ >> >> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >> >> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: namesign.png Type: image/png Size: 440 bytes Desc: not available URL: From 0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU Fri Apr 23 13:09:16 2021 From: 0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU (Valerie Sutton) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 10:09:16 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: References: <2FC8FC1F-461B-4ED2-B726-8A332F4BD08A@gmail.com> <547AE4F1-07F4-4D1C-B694-A34A197D2144@signwriting.org> <2ABE1B97-D8D3-456B-861C-79390B5F7B91@gmail.com> <7A9944EF-785F-473F-B14F-C7F86B39389F@SIGNWRITING.ORG> <424934123.2887082.1619123051525@mail.yahoo.com> <231888741.2899076.1619124082605@mail.yahoo.com> <31764764-65FA-4376-B064-952D2676E7C0@dancewriting.org> <0A386363-75E9-4079-B3FE-C9936E60D3DF@signwriting.org> Message-ID: SignWriting List April 23, 2021 Hi Adam, Cherie, Andre, Steve, Jonathan and everyone - The old textbooks, such as Lessons in SignWriting, and DanceWriting for Modern and Jazz Dance, have diagrams trying to show the concept of the Raked Stage. The longer line represents “closer to the reader” which is really the audience in the dance world, but in the sign language world, writing in the Expressive, the audience is looking through the back of the signer, and becoming the signer. So “closer to the reader” means “closer to the chest” or “closer to your body”. Whether writing body movement or sign languages, and whether writing Expressive or Receptive, the concept of the Raked Stage shows depth. Please excuse the childlike nature of some of these drawings - they were done quickly in 1979 while teaching a dance class - I am looking forward to updating our books this decade ;-) ————— > On Apr 23, 2021, at 7:40 AM, Adam Frost wrote: > > You’re right about the Raked Stage. I noticed that with the last writing with the “Depth Lines” as you aptly called it. I almost wanted to add connecting lines on the side to complete the stage look. Ha! > > That is an interesting question of showing depth (if it is important for the writing). Let’s say I wanted to make it clear that a person crosses my path close to me and the later another person crosses my path farther up ahead. The line would be longer and shorter to show that distance. > > > > Would this be readable? > > > Adam > >> On Apr 23, 2021, at 7:13 AM, Valerie Sutton > wrote: >> >> SignWriting List >> April 23, 2021 >> >> Actually, Adam, the lines you show in this email, with the longer one closer to the chest, feels like the concept of the Raked Stage, which our Movement Writing system was built on. Back in 1974 in Denmark I was teaching a troupe of ballet dancers DanceWriting, in Tivoli Gardens during the summer, and we would congregate for the class I was teaching on the stage that they would perform on, that evening. And the very old stage at Tivoli Gardens was hundreds of years old, and it was “raked”, meaning slanted down towards the audience. So I was sitting in the front seat of the audience looking at the dancers on stage, and the slant brought them closer to me in the audience. So the writing system was designed to write on a Raked Stage, so that the reader, in the audience, sees anything closer to the reader a little larger on a slant. >> >> So you followed that theme perfectly with your invention of the longer line being “closer to the reader’s chest”. >> >> So I really like this for “positions” of one hand close and one hand far, both “placed” in those positions. >> >> But, if there is a movement between them, and this is all the right hand and it is not a right hand close and a left hand far - then I need a Movement Arrow. How can I know which position started the movement without an arrow? Did you start in the back or did you start in the front? >> >> So for positioning or placing two hands for depth I love the “Depth Lines” if they are different hands - >> >> Those are my thoughts ;-) >> >> Thank you for working on this - Thanks for the Depth Lines! >> >> Val ;-) >> >> ——— >> ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Raked_Stage_Old_Diagrams.png Type: image/png Size: 80866 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Raked_Stage.png Type: image/png Size: 28830 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2021-04-23 at 7.39.38 AM.png Type: image/png Size: 6533 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: namesign.png Type: image/png Size: 440 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jsm88b at GMAIL.COM Mon Apr 26 14:01:34 2021 From: jsm88b at GMAIL.COM (Josenilson da Silva Mendes) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 15:01:34 -0300 Subject: [Sw-l] =?utf-8?b?QXByZXNlbnRhIMOnw6Nv?= Message-ID: Caros Valerie Sutton e participantes da SignWriting List, Meu nome é Josenilson da Silva Mendes. Tenho 48 anos. Moro em Fortaleza, capital do Ceará-BR. Sou tradutor e intérprete de língua de sinais brasileira - Libras desde 1990. Meu primeiro contato com a escrita de sinais foi em 1997, em um congresso de educação de surdos, no Rio de Janeiro-RJ. Hoje, trabalho como tradutor e intérprete de Libras na Universidade Federal do Ceará-UFC. A partir de 2012, comecei a aprofundar meus conhecimentos sobre o sistema Sutton de escrita de sinais com o livro de Madson e Raquel Barreto, Escrita de Sinais sem Mistérios. Em 2015, conheci o signwriting.org e o signbank.org. Desde então, tenho feito traduções do português para a Libras, principalmente da Bíblia, no SignPuddle Online, e transcrições de vídeos em Libras pelo sistema Sutton. Também faço revisão de traduções e textos escritos em Libras pelo sistema Sutton para alguns colegas ouvintes e surdos. Conclui o mestrado em Estudos da Tradução em 2020, na UFC, e minha dissertação era uma tradução comentada envolvendo escrita de sinais. Tenho ensinado a outros o que já aprendi e continuo aprendendo sobre o sistema Sutton de escrita de sinais. Josenilson Mendes ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG Mon Apr 26 18:45:09 2021 From: sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG (Valerie Sutton) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 15:45:09 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] =?utf-8?b?QXByZXNlbnRhIMOnw6Nv?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <97089F02-B39E-42AE-814F-35B784E52541@signwriting.org> SignWriting List April 26, 2021 Welcome Josenilson Mendes to the SignWriting List! Very happy to meet you officially, although I know of your work and I am delighted to meet you directly. Thank you for posting your introduction. Here is the English translation, from Google Translate, of Josenilson’s introduction below in Portuguese: English Translation: Dear Valerie Sutton and SignWriting List participants, My name is Josenilson da Silva Mendes. I am 48 years old. I live in Fortaleza, capital of Ceará-BR. I have been a Brazilian Sign Language (Libras) translator and interpreter since 1990. My first contact with SignWriting was in 1997, at a Congress on Deaf Education, in Rio de Janeiro-RJ. Today, I work as a translator and interpreter of Libras at the Federal University of Ceará-UFC. From 2012, I started to deepen my knowledge about the Sutton SignWriting system with the book by Madson and Raquel Barreto, “SignWriting Without Mysteries”. In 2015, I got to know SignWriting.org and SignBank.org. Since then, I have done translations from Portuguese to Libras, mainly from the Bible, on SignPuddle Online, and transcriptions of videos in Libras through the Sutton system. I also proofread translations and texts written in Libras by the Sutton system for some hearing and deaf colleagues. I completed my Master's degree in Translation Studies in 2020, at UFC, and my dissertation was a commented translation involving SignWriting. I have taught others what I have learned and continue to learn about the Sutton SignWriting system. ____________ > On Apr 26, 2021, at 11:01 AM, Josenilson da Silva Mendes wrote: > > Caros Valerie Sutton e participantes da SignWriting List, > Meu nome é Josenilson da Silva Mendes. Tenho 48 anos. Moro em Fortaleza, capital do Ceará-BR. Sou tradutor e intérprete de língua de sinais brasileira - Libras desde 1990. Meu primeiro contato com a escrita de sinais foi em 1997, em um congresso de educação de surdos, no Rio de Janeiro-RJ. > Hoje, trabalho como tradutor e intérprete de Libras na Universidade Federal do Ceará-UFC. A partir de 2012, comecei a aprofundar meus conhecimentos sobre o sistema Sutton de escrita de sinais com o livro de Madson e Raquel Barreto, Escrita de Sinais sem Mistérios. Em 2015, conheci o signwriting.org e o signbank.org . Desde então, tenho feito traduções do português para a Libras, principalmente da Bíblia, no SignPuddle Online, e transcrições de vídeos em Libras pelo sistema Sutton. Também faço revisão de traduções e textos escritos em Libras pelo sistema Sutton para alguns colegas ouvintes e surdos. > Conclui o mestrado em Estudos da Tradução em 2020, na UFC, e minha dissertação era uma tradução comentada envolvendo escrita de sinais. > Tenho ensinado a outros o que já aprendi e continuo aprendendo sobre o sistema Sutton de escrita de sinais. > > > Josenilson Mendes > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From 0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU Mon Apr 26 18:52:26 2021 From: 0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU (Valerie Sutton) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 15:52:26 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] =?utf-8?q?Tamanho_de_alguns_s_=C3=ADmbolos?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CA86E83-7562-4D8A-A8B1-DC9450FCBF90@mac.com> SignWriting List April 26, 2021 English Translation from Google: Dear Valerie and Adam Frost, A question arose among some fellow SignWriting researchers as to why these symbols have different sizes. When should we write the largest and when should we write the smallest? Does it have anything to do with the amount of fingers that move? Grateful for the attention! Josenilson Mendes ____________ > On Apr 26, 2021, at 3:20 PM, Josenilson da Silva Mendes wrote: > > Caros Valerie e Adam Frost, > > Surgiu uma dúvida entre alguns colegas pesquisadores de escrita de sinais sobre a razão pela qual estes símbolos têm tamanhos diferentes. Quando devemos escrever o maior e quando escrever o menor? Tem alguma relação com a quantidade de dedos que se movem? > > Grato pela atenção! > Josenilson Mendes > ________________________________________________ ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 631 bytes Desc: not available URL: From icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM Mon Apr 26 19:01:31 2021 From: icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM (Adam Frost) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 16:01:31 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] =?utf-8?q?Tamanho_de_alguns_s_=C3=ADmbolos?= In-Reply-To: <8CA86E83-7562-4D8A-A8B1-DC9450FCBF90@mac.com> References: <8CA86E83-7562-4D8A-A8B1-DC9450FCBF90@mac.com> Message-ID: Hello Josenilson Mendes, That is a very good question. :-) I personally don't use the smaller versions. I believe it has to do with the case of when one finger does the movement but the other active fingers do not. So the bigger symbols mean all the fingers move rather than only the specific finger. I hope that is understandable. :-) ————————Google Translate into Portuguese————————— Olá Josenilson Mendes, Esta é uma questão muito boa. :-) Eu pessoalmente não uso as versões menores. Acredito que tenha a ver com o caso de quando um dedo faz o movimento, mas os outros dedos ativos não. Portanto, os símbolos maiores significam que todos os dedos se movem, e não apenas o dedo específico. Espero que seja compreensível. :-) Adam > On Apr 26, 2021, at 3:52 PM, Valerie Sutton <0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU> wrote: > > SignWriting List > April 26, 2021 > > English Translation from Google: > > > Dear Valerie and Adam Frost, > > A question arose among some fellow SignWriting researchers as to why these symbols have different sizes. When should we write the largest and when should we write the smallest? Does it have anything to do with the amount of fingers that move? > > Grateful for the attention! > Josenilson Mendes > > ____________ > >> On Apr 26, 2021, at 3:20 PM, Josenilson da Silva Mendes > wrote: >> >> Caros Valerie e Adam Frost, >> >> Surgiu uma dúvida entre alguns colegas pesquisadores de escrita de sinais sobre a razão pela qual estes símbolos têm tamanhos diferentes. Quando devemos escrever o maior e quando escrever o menor? Tem alguma relação com a quantidade de dedos que se movem? >> >> Grato pela atenção! >> Josenilson Mendes >> ________________________________________________ > > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: namesign.png Type: image/png Size: 440 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sutton at DANCEWRITING.ORG Mon Apr 26 19:08:24 2021 From: sutton at DANCEWRITING.ORG (Valerie Sutton) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 16:08:24 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] =?utf-8?q?Tamanho_de_alguns_s_=C3=ADmbolos?= In-Reply-To: <8CA86E83-7562-4D8A-A8B1-DC9450FCBF90@mac.com> References: <8CA86E83-7562-4D8A-A8B1-DC9450FCBF90@mac.com> Message-ID: SignWriting List April 26, 2021 QUESTION: Small and large Finger Movement Symbols - does size mean how many fingers move? ANSWER: No. My memory was that the Size is there just for convenience when writing. Some signs need more space to write and so the smaller size is useful in those cases, and some signs look better with the larger symbol. I see Adam feels they do mean “more than one”, but no matter what, they are “one time movement”. If they move “open-open” - in other words - two movements in a row - then there are two written - Let me look up our early textbooks to be sure of all this (smile)! Did you know that the system in 46 years old? And some of these particulars evolved over time - so it would be good to review it - What did Madson and Raquel’s book “SignWriting Without Mysteries” say? The symbols are listed in the ISWA 2010 HTML Reference Manual Online. Here is Group 12: https://www.signbank.org/iswa/216_sg.html ________________________ > > SignWriting List > April 26, 2021 > > English Translation from Google: > > Dear Valerie and Adam Frost, > > A question arose among some fellow SignWriting researchers as to why these symbols have different sizes. When should we write the largest and when should we write the smallest? Does it have anything to do with the amount of fingers that move? > > Grateful for the attention! > Josenilson Mendes > > ____________ > >> On Apr 26, 2021, at 3:20 PM, Josenilson da Silva Mendes > wrote: >> >> Caros Valerie e Adam Frost, >> >> Surgiu uma dúvida entre alguns colegas pesquisadores de escrita de sinais sobre a razão pela qual estes símbolos têm tamanhos diferentes. Quando devemos escrever o maior e quando escrever o menor? Tem alguma relação com a quantidade de dedos que se movem? >> >> Grato pela atenção! >> Josenilson Mendes >> ________________________________________________ > > ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Group12.png Type: image/png Size: 241788 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 631 bytes Desc: not available URL: From icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM Mon Apr 26 19:17:38 2021 From: icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM (Adam Frost) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 16:17:38 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] =?utf-8?q?Tamanho_de_alguns_s_=C3=ADmbolos?= In-Reply-To: References: <8CA86E83-7562-4D8A-A8B1-DC9450FCBF90@mac.com> Message-ID: I am not sure about the meaning of “more than one”. In fact, when you put it that way, it doesn’t seem right. :-) Like I said, I don't personally write with the smaller symbols, so it is possible I understand it wrong. :-) Yes, I think we need to check out the older documents. :-) Adam > On Apr 26, 2021, at 4:08 PM, Valerie Sutton wrote: > > SignWriting List > April 26, 2021 > > QUESTION: Small and large Finger Movement Symbols - does size mean how many fingers move? > > ANSWER: No. My memory was that the Size is there just for convenience when writing. Some signs need more space to write and so the smaller size is useful in those cases, and some signs look better with the larger symbol. I see Adam feels they do mean “more than one”, but no matter what, they are “one time movement”. If they move “open-open” - in other words - two movements in a row - then there are two written - > > Let me look up our early textbooks to be sure of all this (smile)! Did you know that the system in 46 years old? And some of these particulars evolved over time - so it would be good to review it - > > What did Madson and Raquel’s book “SignWriting Without Mysteries” say? > > The symbols are listed in the ISWA 2010 HTML Reference Manual Online. Here is Group 12: > > https://www.signbank.org/iswa/216_sg.html > > > > > ________________________ > >> >> SignWriting List >> April 26, 2021 >> >> English Translation from Google: >> >> Dear Valerie and Adam Frost, >> >> A question arose among some fellow SignWriting researchers as to why these symbols have different sizes. When should we write the largest and when should we write the smallest? Does it have anything to do with the amount of fingers that move? >> >> Grateful for the attention! >> Josenilson Mendes >> >> ____________ >> >>> On Apr 26, 2021, at 3:20 PM, Josenilson da Silva Mendes > wrote: >>> >>> Caros Valerie e Adam Frost, >>> >>> Surgiu uma dúvida entre alguns colegas pesquisadores de escrita de sinais sobre a razão pela qual estes símbolos têm tamanhos diferentes. Quando devemos escrever o maior e quando escrever o menor? Tem alguma relação com a quantidade de dedos que se movem? >>> >>> Grato pela atenção! >>> Josenilson Mendes >>> ________________________________________________ >> >> > > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: namesign.png Type: image/png Size: 440 bytes Desc: not available URL: From 0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU Mon Apr 26 19:27:59 2021 From: 0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU (Valerie Sutton) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 16:27:59 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] =?utf-8?q?=5BSPAM=5D_Re=3A_=5BSW-L=5D_Tamanho_de_alguns_s_?= =?utf-8?q?=C3=ADmbolos?= In-Reply-To: References: <8CA86E83-7562-4D8A-A8B1-DC9450FCBF90@mac.com> Message-ID: <59BA67EB-77AE-4A1C-B16F-447D43D03F9B@mac.com> Hi Adam - I appreciate your answer truly. ;-) I guess I meant “more than one finger” - I am not sure either - I am trying to remember why we put two different sizes in the ISWA 2010 - it was a lot of work to do that - Originally I did the dot-by-dot development for the pngs, and then you did the SVG (thank you so much, Adam ;-). So when you think about it, there had to be a reason! For those who might be interested, Adam did videos teaching these symbols: https://youtu.be/F4wIpupyNtY I will write again when I find a really good answer ;-) Val ;-) > On Apr 26, 2021, at 4:17 PM, Adam Frost wrote: > > I am not sure about the meaning of “more than one”. In fact, when you put it that way, it doesn’t seem right. :-) > > Like I said, I don't personally write with the smaller symbols, so it is possible I understand it wrong. :-) > > Yes, I think we need to check out the older documents. :-) > > > Adam > >> On Apr 26, 2021, at 4:08 PM, Valerie Sutton > wrote: >> >> SignWriting List >> April 26, 2021 >> >> QUESTION: Small and large Finger Movement Symbols - does size mean how many fingers move? >> >> ANSWER: No. My memory was that the Size is there just for convenience when writing. Some signs need more space to write and so the smaller size is useful in those cases, and some signs look better with the larger symbol. I see Adam feels they do mean “more than one”, but no matter what, they are “one time movement”. If they move “open-open” - in other words - two movements in a row - then there are two written - >> >> Let me look up our early textbooks to be sure of all this (smile)! Did you know that the system in 46 years old? And some of these particulars evolved over time - so it would be good to review it - >> >> What did Madson and Raquel’s book “SignWriting Without Mysteries” say? >> >> The symbols are listed in the ISWA 2010 HTML Reference Manual Online. Here is Group 12: >> >> https://www.signbank.org/iswa/216_sg.html >> >> >> >> >> ________________________ >> >>> >>> SignWriting List >>> April 26, 2021 >>> >>> English Translation from Google: >>> >>> Dear Valerie and Adam Frost, >>> >>> A question arose among some fellow SignWriting researchers as to why these symbols have different sizes. When should we write the largest and when should we write the smallest? Does it have anything to do with the amount of fingers that move? >>> >>> Grateful for the attention! >>> Josenilson Mendes >>> >>> ____________ >>> >>>> On Apr 26, 2021, at 3:20 PM, Josenilson da Silva Mendes > wrote: >>>> >>>> Caros Valerie e Adam Frost, >>>> >>>> Surgiu uma dúvida entre alguns colegas pesquisadores de escrita de sinais sobre a razão pela qual estes símbolos têm tamanhos diferentes. Quando devemos escrever o maior e quando escrever o menor? Tem alguma relação com a quantidade de dedos que se movem? >>>> >>>> Grato pela atenção! >>>> Josenilson Mendes >>>> ________________________________________________ >>> >>> >> >> ________________________________________________ >> >> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >> >> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jsm88b at GMAIL.COM Mon Apr 26 18:26:09 2021 From: jsm88b at GMAIL.COM (Josenilson da Silva Mendes) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 19:26:09 -0300 Subject: [Sw-l] S=?UTF-8?Q?=C3=ADmbolos_de_localiza=C3=A7=C3=A3o_?=exata Message-ID: Caros amigos da SW-List, Valerie e Adam, Sabemos que os símbolos de localização exata não são de uso corrente, mas servem para fins específicos de estudos linguísticos de línguas de sinais. Gostaria de saber se há algum exemplo de uso destes símbolos de localização exata em qualquer língua de sinais. Sabemos que este se referem ao plano parede: [image: image.png] Como eu poderia usá-lo para descrever um sinal? Alguém pode me mostrar um exemplo? O ponto central do octógono estaria na altura do quadril? Sabemos que este se referem ao plano chão: [image: image.png] Como eu poderia usá-lo para descrever um sinal? Alguém pode me mostrar um exemplo? O ponto central do octógono se refere ao eixo do corpo, da cabeça aos pés? Estes abaixo se referem à distância da realização de um sinal em relação ao corpo em uma visão de cima, correto? [image: image.png] O traço se refere ao espaço à frente do corpo onde um sinal é realizado e se move, correto? Estes abaixo se referem à altura em relação ao torso em que se realiza um sinal, correto? [image: image.png] Estes abaixo se relacionam ao eixo longitudinal do corpo e em que posição o sinal é realizado, correto? [image: image.png] Sabemos que estes abaixo se referem a pontos de contato ou localização exata em membros ou partes do corpo. [image: image.png] [image: image.png] Mas o que significam os círculos branco e o preto? Os círculos estão relacionados à perspectiva do sinalizante? Há algum exemplo? Existe algum material em vídeo ou escrito sobre estes símbolos de localização exata? Já agradeço pelas respostas! Josenilson Mendes ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 2821 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 2296 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 2001 bytes Desc: not available URL: From 0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU Mon Apr 26 21:27:48 2021 From: 0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU (Valerie Sutton) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 18:27:48 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] S=?utf-8?Q?=C3=ADmbolos_de_localiza=C3=A7=C3=A3o_?=exata In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <901B656C-4A99-49D8-AAA2-46BA382548E5@mac.com> SignWriting List April 26, 2021 Google Translation into English: We know that symbols of exact location are not commonly used, but they serve specific purposes for linguistic studies of sign languages. I wonder if there are any examples of using these exact location symbols in any sign language. We know that this refer to the wall plan: How could I use it to describe a signal? Can anyone show me an example? Would the central point of the octagon be at hip height? We know that these refer to the ground plane: How could I use it to describe a signal? Can anyone show me an example? Does the central point of the octagon refer to the axis of the body, from head to toe? These below refer to the distance of a signal from the body in a top view, correct? The dash refers to the space in front of the body where a signal is made and moves, correct? These below refer to the height in relation to the torso at which a signal is made, correct? These below relate to the longitudinal axis of the body and in what position the signal is made, correct? We know that these below refer to points of contact or exact location on limbs or parts of the body. But what do the white and black circles mean? Are the circles related to the perspective of the sign? Is there an example? Is there any video or written material about these exact location symbols? Thank you for the answers! ------------- > On Apr 26, 2021, at 3:26 PM, Josenilson da Silva Mendes wrote: > > Caros amigos da SW-List, Valerie e Adam, > > > Sabemos que os símbolos de localização exata não são de uso corrente, mas servem para fins específicos de estudos linguísticos de línguas de sinais. Gostaria de saber se há algum exemplo de uso destes símbolos de localização exata em qualquer língua de sinais. > > Sabemos que este se referem ao plano parede: > > Como eu poderia usá-lo para descrever um sinal? Alguém pode me mostrar um exemplo? O ponto central do octógono estaria na altura do quadril? > > Sabemos que este se referem ao plano chão: > > Como eu poderia usá-lo para descrever um sinal? Alguém pode me mostrar um exemplo? O ponto central do octógono se refere ao eixo do corpo, da cabeça aos pés? > > Estes abaixo se referem à distância da realização de um sinal em relação ao corpo em uma visão de cima, correto? > > O traço se refere ao espaço à frente do corpo onde um sinal é realizado e se move, correto? > > Estes abaixo se referem à altura em relação ao torso em que se realiza um sinal, correto? > > Estes abaixo se relacionam ao eixo longitudinal do corpo e em que posição o sinal é realizado, correto? > > > Sabemos que estes abaixo se referem a pontos de contato ou localização exata em membros ou partes do corpo. > > > Mas o que significam os círculos branco e o preto? Os círculos estão relacionados à perspectiva do sinalizante? Há algum exemplo? > > Existe algum material em vídeo ou escrito sobre estes símbolos de localização exata? > > Já agradeço pelas respostas! > > Josenilson Mendes > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 956 bytes Desc: not available URL: From icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM Tue Apr 27 00:16:04 2021 From: icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM (Adam Frost) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 21:16:04 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] S=?utf-8?Q?=C3=ADmbolos_de_localiza=C3=A7=C3=A3o_?=exata In-Reply-To: <901B656C-4A99-49D8-AAA2-46BA382548E5@mac.com> References: <901B656C-4A99-49D8-AAA2-46BA382548E5@mac.com> Message-ID: <025CA62C-09F6-48D2-94AF-D76150ED5FEC@gmail.com> Hello Josenilson Mendes, For the most part, your understanding of these symbols are correct and about as well as I understand them myself. I have never seen these symbols used in actual writing of signs; however, I can see them being used in SignSpelling which is used for sorting signs. They might be helpful and/or necessary to differentiate between different signs when the symbols are taken from the 3D writing and arranged into a 2D string for sorting. It might also be helpful for researchers to include spatial information to search across a database of signs. I have added some comments below so you know which symbols I am referring to. I hope this helps you understand these symbols even though I can’t think of any specific signs that use these symbols. Adam > On Apr 26, 2021, at 6:27 PM, Valerie Sutton <0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU> wrote: > > SignWriting List > April 26, 2021 > > Google Translation into English: > > We know that symbols of exact location are not commonly used, but they serve specific purposes for linguistic studies of sign languages. I wonder if there are any examples of using these exact location symbols in any sign language. > > We know that this refer to the wall plan: > How could I use it to describe a signal? Can anyone show me an example? Would the central point of the octagon be at hip height? Yes, your understanding of these symbols see to be correct. These symbols would be like telling a location on a wall in front of the signer where the middle line is likely at the waist or hip height. My guess is that the first symbol is just a general height indicator of above the center of the body (or the hip as you stated). The black in the other symbols tell how much higher or lower from the center point the location is. > > We know that these refer to the ground plane: > > How could I use it to describe a signal? Can anyone show me an example? Does the central point of the octagon refer to the axis of the body, from head to toe? These symbols would be as if it was on the floor and the signer is standing in the center. So the first symbol would be to indicate location in front, while the next three detail how specifically close or far from the front of the signer. > > These below refer to the distance of a signal from the body in a top view, correct? > > The dash refers to the space in front of the body where a signal is made and moves, correct? Yes, these three symbols would be telling how close or far from the front of the signer. In a sense, these three symbols have the same meaning as the last three in the previous series. > > These below refer to the height in relation to the torso at which a signal is made, correct? Correct, these symbols would have a clear relation to the height on the body that the first series of symbols didn’t have. > > These below relate to the longitudinal axis of the body and in what position the signal is made, correct? Yes, that is correct. These symbols give the location on a vertical line across the body. > > We know that these below refer to points of contact or exact location on limbs or parts of the body. > But what do the white and black circles mean? Are the circles related to the perspective of the sign? Is there an example? Yes, these symbols give specific location on the arms, fingers, hand, and torso (in that order). The difference between the circles is the front and back. I might have this mixed up, but I believe the black circles would be the locations that you see if you were standing behind the signer, and the white circles would be the locations that you would see if you were standing in front of the signer. > > Is there any video or written material about these exact location symbols? > > Thank you for the answers! > > > ------------- > >> On Apr 26, 2021, at 3:26 PM, Josenilson da Silva Mendes > wrote: >> >> Caros amigos da SW-List, Valerie e Adam, >> >> >> Sabemos que os símbolos de localização exata não são de uso corrente, mas servem para fins específicos de estudos linguísticos de línguas de sinais. Gostaria de saber se há algum exemplo de uso destes símbolos de localização exata em qualquer língua de sinais. >> >> Sabemos que este se referem ao plano parede: >> >> Como eu poderia usá-lo para descrever um sinal? Alguém pode me mostrar um exemplo? O ponto central do octógono estaria na altura do quadril? >> >> Sabemos que este se referem ao plano chão: >> >> Como eu poderia usá-lo para descrever um sinal? Alguém pode me mostrar um exemplo? O ponto central do octógono se refere ao eixo do corpo, da cabeça aos pés? >> >> Estes abaixo se referem à distância da realização de um sinal em relação ao corpo em uma visão de cima, correto? >> >> O traço se refere ao espaço à frente do corpo onde um sinal é realizado e se move, correto? >> >> Estes abaixo se referem à altura em relação ao torso em que se realiza um sinal, correto? >> >> Estes abaixo se relacionam ao eixo longitudinal do corpo e em que posição o sinal é realizado, correto? >> >> >> Sabemos que estes abaixo se referem a pontos de contato ou localização exata em membros ou partes do corpo. >> >> >> Mas o que significam os círculos branco e o preto? Os círculos estão relacionados à perspectiva do sinalizante? Há algum exemplo? >> >> Existe algum material em vídeo ou escrito sobre estes símbolos de localização exata? >> >> Já agradeço pelas respostas! >> >> Josenilson Mendes >> ________________________________________________ >> >> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >> >> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 1904 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 2851 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tr.vanessa.ferreira at GMAIL.COM Tue Apr 27 12:07:41 2021 From: tr.vanessa.ferreira at GMAIL.COM (=?UTF-8?Q?F=C3=ADsica_em_Libras?=) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 13:07:41 -0300 Subject: [Sw-l] =?utf-8?q?=5BSPAM=5D_Re=3A_=5BSW-L=5D_Tamanho_de_alguns_s_?= =?utf-8?q?=C3=ADmbolos?= In-Reply-To: <59BA67EB-77AE-4A1C-B16F-447D43D03F9B@mac.com> References: <8CA86E83-7562-4D8A-A8B1-DC9450FCBF90@mac.com> <59BA67EB-77AE-4A1C-B16F-447D43D03F9B@mac.com> Message-ID: I usually use them to register if the Finger open just a little or wide open. Vanessa Cristina da Silva Ferreira Mestranda em Educação em Ciências e Matemática/PPGEduCIMAT/UFRRJ Licenciada em Física/UFRRJ Colaboradora do Coletivo PNE/UFRRJ Colaboradora do Projeto Cultura Visual - Imersão na Libras - DLC/UFRRJ Colaboradora do Projeto Meninas do Radium - LEFERCE - UFRRJ Em seg, 26 de abr de 2021 20:28, Valerie Sutton < 0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at listserv.valenciacollege.edu> escreveu: > Hi Adam - > I appreciate your answer truly. ;-) > > I guess I meant “more than one finger” - I am not sure either - I am > trying to remember why we put two different sizes in the ISWA 2010 - it was > a lot of work to do that - Originally I did the dot-by-dot development for > the pngs, and then you did the SVG (thank you so much, Adam ;-). So when > you think about it, there had to be a reason! > > For those who might be interested, Adam did videos teaching these symbols: > > https://youtu.be/F4wIpupyNtY > > I will write again when I find a really good answer ;-) > > Val ;-) > > > > On Apr 26, 2021, at 4:17 PM, Adam Frost wrote: > > I am not sure about the meaning of “more than one”. In fact, when you put > it that way, it doesn’t seem right. :-) > > Like I said, I don't personally write with the smaller symbols, so it is > possible I understand it wrong. :-) > > Yes, I think we need to check out the older documents. :-) > > > Adam > > On Apr 26, 2021, at 4:08 PM, Valerie Sutton > wrote: > > SignWriting List > April 26, 2021 > > QUESTION: Small and large Finger Movement Symbols - does size mean how > many fingers move? > > ANSWER: No. My memory was that the Size is there just for convenience when > writing. Some signs need more space to write and so the smaller size is > useful in those cases, and some signs look better with the larger symbol. I > see Adam feels they do mean “more than one”, but no matter what, they are > “one time movement”. If they move “open-open” - in other words - two > movements in a row - then there are two written - > > Let me look up our early textbooks to be sure of all this (smile)! Did you > know that the system in 46 years old? And some of these particulars evolved > over time - so it would be good to review it - > > What did Madson and Raquel’s book “SignWriting Without Mysteries” say? > > The symbols are listed in the ISWA 2010 HTML Reference Manual Online. Here > is Group 12: > > https://www.signbank.org/iswa/216_sg.html > > > > > ________________________ > > > SignWriting List > April 26, 2021 > > English Translation from Google: > > Dear Valerie and Adam Frost, A question arose among some fellow > SignWriting researchers as to why these symbols have different sizes. When > should we write the largest and when should we write the smallest? Does it > have anything to do with the amount of fingers that move? > Grateful for the attention! Josenilson Mendes > > ____________ > > On Apr 26, 2021, at 3:20 PM, Josenilson da Silva Mendes > wrote: > > Caros Valerie e Adam Frost, > > Surgiu uma dúvida entre alguns colegas pesquisadores de escrita de sinais > sobre a razão pela qual estes símbolos têm tamanhos diferentes. Quando > devemos escrever o maior e quando escrever o menor? Tem alguma relação com > a quantidade de dedos que se movem? > > Grato pela atenção! > Josenilson Mendes > ________________________________________________ > > > > > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page > http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages > http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > > > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page > http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages > http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > > > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page > http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages > http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From escolavirtualprojetofaisca at GMAIL.COM Tue Apr 27 14:43:23 2021 From: escolavirtualprojetofaisca at GMAIL.COM (Melquiedes Ferreira Franco) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 15:43:23 -0300 Subject: [Sw-l] New Brazilian book 'A Saga do Surdo' with SignWriting In-Reply-To: <1FF8FB1A-EBE5-4863-B386-418B0785E5D5@mac.com> References: <418D873D-DAB9-4086-9774-E250945113F7@signwriting.org> <3b1c82d3-e4cf-8e71-c90a-cd9b2d2b4130@yahoo.ca> <1FF8FB1A-EBE5-4863-B386-418B0785E5D5@mac.com> Message-ID: Dear, Valerie Sutton, I am teacher Melquíedes, we sent the book "A Saga do Surdo" on February 22, 2021. But, we verified that the post office still delivered the book to your address. As soon as possible we will go to the post office to figure out these situation. Our apologies for the inconvenience. Cheers. Melquíedes. Em qui, 4 de fev de 2021 18:01, Valerie Sutton < 0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at listserv.valenciacollege.edu> escreveu: > SignWriting List > February 4th, 2021 > > Hello Melquiedes - > Your English is excellent! > > I would love a copy of your book, Melquiedes. Thank you. I will write to > you. > > Congratulations to your daughter and author, Maria Alice Floriano Franco > ;-) > > I will create a link on our SignWriting site to your video about the book. > > I used Google Translate to translate some information into English, from > the Portuguese you posted, under the video. See below. > > BÔNUS: NA COMPRA DO LIVRO VOCÊ GANHA UM CURSO BÁSICO DE LIBRAS 100% ON > LINE. E PARTICIPARÁ DA NOSSA COMUNIDADE NO FACEBOOK PARA APRENDER TODOS OS > SINAIS EXISTENTES NO LIVRO. O APRENDIZADO É CONTEXTUALIZADO COM IMAGENS DAS > CENAS DA HISTÓRIA, COM AVATARES QUE MOSTRAM AS DIREÇÕES DAS CONFIGURAÇÕES > MANUAIS E ALGUMAS EXPRESSÕES FACIAIS. ALÉM DISSO, VOCÊ APRENDERÁ A ESCRITA > DE SINAIS DE TODOS OS SINAIS MOSTRADOS NA OBRA. TEMOS UMA SÉRIE DE BÔNUS > QUE SERÃO LIBERADOS NOS PRÓXIMOS MESES. TAIS COMO E-BOOKS, PLAYLISTS DE > LIVES PRIVADAS COM CONTEÚDO EXPLICATIVO SOBRE O TEMA DO LIVRO. E TEM > MAIS... NOS PRÓXIMOS MESES VOCÊ TERÁ ACESSO A JOGOS INTERATIVOS DIDÁTICOS > PARA FIXAR O APRENDIZADO ADQUIRIDO NA COMUNIDADE. > > ENGLISH TRANSLATION: > > BONUS: > > IN PURCHASING THE BOOK YOU GET A BASIC COURSE OF LIBRAS 100% ON LINE. AND YOU WILL PARTICIPATE IN OUR COMMUNITY ON FACEBOOK TO LEARN ALL SIGNS IN THE BOOK. > LEARNING IS CONTEXTUALIZED WITH IMAGES OF HISTORY SCENES, WITH AVATARS THAT SHOW THE DIRECTIONS OF MANUAL SETTINGS AND SOME FACIAL EXPRESSIONS. > ALSO, YOU WILL LEARN THE WRITING OF SIGNS OF ALL THE SIGNS SHOWN IN THE WORK. WE HAVE A BONUS SERIES TO BE RELEASED IN THE NEXT MONTHS. SUCH AS E-BOOKS, PLAYLISTS OF PRIVATE BOOKS WITH EXPLANATORY CONTENT ABOUT THE BOOK'S THEME. > AND IT'S MORE ... IN THE NEXT MONTHS YOU WILL HAVE ACCESS TO INTERACTIVE TEACHING GAMES TO FIX THE LEARNING ACQUIRED IN THE COMMUNITY. > > > > How do people purchase the book? > > Val ;-) > > ------------- > > > > On Feb 3, 2021, at 1:47 PM, Melquiedes Ferreira Franco < > escolavirtualprojetofaisca at GMAIL.COM> wrote: > > Wow! you answer me so fast. Thank you for your attention!!! > Yes, of course, iI would like to see the book on the signwriting website. > unfortunately, there is no downloadable version of this book. > It is sold only in the physical version. > I would like to know how I can send a book as a gift. That would be an > honor for us. > I was responsible for signwriting, but the author of the book is my > daughter, Maria Alice Floriano Franco. > I´m waiting for your address. > If I making some mistakes in English, I´m sorry, my English working in > progress. > > Thank you so much. > > Melquiedes. > > > Em qua., 3 de fev. de 2021 às 17:18, Valerie Sutton < > 0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at listserv.valenciacollege.edu> escreveu: > >> SignWriting List >> February 3, 2021 >> >> Thank you, Melquiedes Ferreira Franco, for informing us about your new >> book “A Saga do Surdo”, which includes beautiful pages of illustrations >> with LIBRAS (Brazilian Sign Language) written in SignWriting. And what a >> great history!! Thank you for the YouTube introduction - so beautiful! How >> can we purchase or download this book? Do you want me to link to this on >> our SignWriting site? It would be an honor... >> >> https://youtu.be/_Es24V12sOQ >> >> >> >> >> On Feb 3, 2021, at 11:12 AM, Melquiedes Ferreira Franco < >> escolavirtualprojetofaisca at GMAIL.COM> wrote: >> >> Hi! Valerie Sutton and other members of the group, my name is Melquiedes, >> I am a history teacher, brazilian sign language interpreter, so, I would >> like to present you our bilingual book Portuguese / Libras / sign writing, >> our goal is to promote sign language and sig writing as well. >> >> The literary work 'A Saga do Surdo' tells the trajectory of the deaf in >> the history of mankind, in order to aggregate deaf literature and provide >> the experience of a bilingual reading to its readers, encouraging and >> disseminating Libras (Brazilian sign language). >> >> Accessible in Libras (Brazilian sign language), with texts in Portuguese >> and SignWriting (Sign Writing), the illustrated book covers the main facts >> of this history, starting in Ancient Egypt until the achievement of the >> liberation of sign language (Congress of Paris - 1971), after the Oralist >> Empire. >> >> In a simple and summarized way, the reader will have at hand a brief >> summary of more than 4000 years of history, in addition, he will be able to >> learn Libras, Portuguese and Sign Writing in a didactic way. >> >> You can see more by watching the video. >> >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=TLPQMzAwMTIwMjF6YiS2ykRMKg&v=_Es24V12sOQ&feature=emb_logo >> >> Melquiedes Ferreira Franco. >> >> > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page > http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages > http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: A_Saga_do_Surdo.png Type: image/png Size: 312191 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: A_Saga_do_Surdo.png Type: image/png Size: 312191 bytes Desc: not available URL: From escolavirtualprojetofaisca at GMAIL.COM Tue Apr 27 14:47:45 2021 From: escolavirtualprojetofaisca at GMAIL.COM (Melquiedes Ferreira Franco) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 15:47:45 -0300 Subject: [Sw-l] New Brazilian book 'A Saga do Surdo' with SignWriting In-Reply-To: References: <418D873D-DAB9-4086-9774-E250945113F7@signwriting.org> <3b1c82d3-e4cf-8e71-c90a-cd9b2d2b4130@yahoo.ca> <1FF8FB1A-EBE5-4863-B386-418B0785E5D5@mac.com> Message-ID: I forgot the post code. Maybe you can check it. Olá. Clique no link para rastrear o objeto código RR034027400BR https://www.linkcorreios.com.br/RR034027400BR?w=1 Melquíedes Em ter, 27 de abr de 2021 15:43, Melquiedes Ferreira Franco < escolavirtualprojetofaisca at gmail.com> escreveu: > Dear, Valerie Sutton, I am teacher Melquíedes, we sent the book "A Saga do > Surdo" on February 22, 2021. But, we verified that the post office still > delivered the book to your address. > As soon as possible we will go to the post office to figure out these > situation. Our apologies for the inconvenience. > > Cheers. > > Melquíedes. > > > Em qui, 4 de fev de 2021 18:01, Valerie Sutton < > 0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at listserv.valenciacollege.edu> escreveu: > >> SignWriting List >> February 4th, 2021 >> >> Hello Melquiedes - >> Your English is excellent! >> >> I would love a copy of your book, Melquiedes. Thank you. I will write to >> you. >> >> Congratulations to your daughter and author, Maria Alice Floriano Franco >> ;-) >> >> I will create a link on our SignWriting site to your video about the book. >> >> I used Google Translate to translate some information into English, from >> the Portuguese you posted, under the video. See below. >> >> BÔNUS: NA COMPRA DO LIVRO VOCÊ GANHA UM CURSO BÁSICO DE LIBRAS 100% ON >> LINE. E PARTICIPARÁ DA NOSSA COMUNIDADE NO FACEBOOK PARA APRENDER TODOS OS >> SINAIS EXISTENTES NO LIVRO. O APRENDIZADO É CONTEXTUALIZADO COM IMAGENS DAS >> CENAS DA HISTÓRIA, COM AVATARES QUE MOSTRAM AS DIREÇÕES DAS CONFIGURAÇÕES >> MANUAIS E ALGUMAS EXPRESSÕES FACIAIS. ALÉM DISSO, VOCÊ APRENDERÁ A ESCRITA >> DE SINAIS DE TODOS OS SINAIS MOSTRADOS NA OBRA. TEMOS UMA SÉRIE DE BÔNUS >> QUE SERÃO LIBERADOS NOS PRÓXIMOS MESES. TAIS COMO E-BOOKS, PLAYLISTS DE >> LIVES PRIVADAS COM CONTEÚDO EXPLICATIVO SOBRE O TEMA DO LIVRO. E TEM >> MAIS... NOS PRÓXIMOS MESES VOCÊ TERÁ ACESSO A JOGOS INTERATIVOS DIDÁTICOS >> PARA FIXAR O APRENDIZADO ADQUIRIDO NA COMUNIDADE. >> >> ENGLISH TRANSLATION: >> >> BONUS: >> >> IN PURCHASING THE BOOK YOU GET A BASIC COURSE OF LIBRAS 100% ON LINE. AND YOU WILL PARTICIPATE IN OUR COMMUNITY ON FACEBOOK TO LEARN ALL SIGNS IN THE BOOK. >> LEARNING IS CONTEXTUALIZED WITH IMAGES OF HISTORY SCENES, WITH AVATARS THAT SHOW THE DIRECTIONS OF MANUAL SETTINGS AND SOME FACIAL EXPRESSIONS. >> ALSO, YOU WILL LEARN THE WRITING OF SIGNS OF ALL THE SIGNS SHOWN IN THE WORK. WE HAVE A BONUS SERIES TO BE RELEASED IN THE NEXT MONTHS. SUCH AS E-BOOKS, PLAYLISTS OF PRIVATE BOOKS WITH EXPLANATORY CONTENT ABOUT THE BOOK'S THEME. >> AND IT'S MORE ... IN THE NEXT MONTHS YOU WILL HAVE ACCESS TO INTERACTIVE TEACHING GAMES TO FIX THE LEARNING ACQUIRED IN THE COMMUNITY. >> >> >> >> How do people purchase the book? >> >> Val ;-) >> >> ------------- >> >> >> >> On Feb 3, 2021, at 1:47 PM, Melquiedes Ferreira Franco < >> escolavirtualprojetofaisca at GMAIL.COM> wrote: >> >> Wow! you answer me so fast. Thank you for your attention!!! >> Yes, of course, iI would like to see the book on the signwriting website. >> unfortunately, there is no downloadable version of this book. >> It is sold only in the physical version. >> I would like to know how I can send a book as a gift. That would be an >> honor for us. >> I was responsible for signwriting, but the author of the book is my >> daughter, Maria Alice Floriano Franco. >> I´m waiting for your address. >> If I making some mistakes in English, I´m sorry, my English working in >> progress. >> >> Thank you so much. >> >> Melquiedes. >> >> >> Em qua., 3 de fev. de 2021 às 17:18, Valerie Sutton < >> 0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at listserv.valenciacollege.edu> escreveu: >> >>> SignWriting List >>> February 3, 2021 >>> >>> Thank you, Melquiedes Ferreira Franco, for informing us about your new >>> book “A Saga do Surdo”, which includes beautiful pages of illustrations >>> with LIBRAS (Brazilian Sign Language) written in SignWriting. And what a >>> great history!! Thank you for the YouTube introduction - so beautiful! How >>> can we purchase or download this book? Do you want me to link to this on >>> our SignWriting site? It would be an honor... >>> >>> https://youtu.be/_Es24V12sOQ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Feb 3, 2021, at 11:12 AM, Melquiedes Ferreira Franco < >>> escolavirtualprojetofaisca at GMAIL.COM> wrote: >>> >>> Hi! Valerie Sutton and other members of the group, my name is >>> Melquiedes, I am a history teacher, brazilian sign language interpreter, >>> so, I would like to present you our bilingual book Portuguese / Libras / >>> sign writing, our goal is to promote sign language and sig writing as well. >>> >>> The literary work 'A Saga do Surdo' tells the trajectory of the deaf in >>> the history of mankind, in order to aggregate deaf literature and provide >>> the experience of a bilingual reading to its readers, encouraging and >>> disseminating Libras (Brazilian sign language). >>> >>> Accessible in Libras (Brazilian sign language), with texts in Portuguese >>> and SignWriting (Sign Writing), the illustrated book covers the main facts >>> of this history, starting in Ancient Egypt until the achievement of the >>> liberation of sign language (Congress of Paris - 1971), after the Oralist >>> Empire. >>> >>> In a simple and summarized way, the reader will have at hand a brief >>> summary of more than 4000 years of history, in addition, he will be able to >>> learn Libras, Portuguese and Sign Writing in a didactic way. >>> >>> You can see more by watching the video. >>> >>> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=TLPQMzAwMTIwMjF6YiS2ykRMKg&v=_Es24V12sOQ&feature=emb_logo >>> >>> Melquiedes Ferreira Franco. >>> >>> >> ________________________________________________ >> >> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >> >> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >> >> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >> >> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page >> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >> >> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages >> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >> > ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From 0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU Tue Apr 27 15:03:32 2021 From: 0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU (Valerie Sutton) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 12:03:32 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] New Brazilian book 'A Saga do Surdo' with SignWriting In-Reply-To: References: <418D873D-DAB9-4086-9774-E250945113F7@signwriting.org> <3b1c82d3-e4cf-8e71-c90a-cd9b2d2b4130@yahoo.ca> <1FF8FB1A-EBE5-4863-B386-418B0785E5D5@mac.com> Message-ID: <1F455228-A917-4495-8883-87A79A0BB88A@mac.com> SignWriting List April 27, 2021 Hello Melquiedes! YES! I got the book! THANK YOU! I just made a video to thank you in person, and I am uploading the video now so we can share, but for right now, you can see, I got the book and I am MOST grateful for your gift and generosity. I am sorry for my tardiness in responding. There have been many transitions here, and I have been a little sad - My blessings to you and everyone in your family and group and I wish you all a blessed life! More soon - Val ;-) > On Apr 27, 2021, at 11:47 AM, Melquiedes Ferreira Franco wrote: > > I forgot the post code. > Maybe you can check it. > > Olá. Clique no link para rastrear o objeto código RR034027400BR > https://www.linkcorreios.com.br/RR034027400BR?w=1 > > Melquíedes > > Em ter, 27 de abr de 2021 15:43, Melquiedes Ferreira Franco > escreveu: > Dear, Valerie Sutton, I am teacher Melquíedes, we sent the book "A Saga do Surdo" on February 22, 2021. But, we verified that the post office still delivered the book to your address. > As soon as possible we will go to the post office to figure out these situation. Our apologies for the inconvenience. > > Cheers. > > Melquíedes. > > > Em qui, 4 de fev de 2021 18:01, Valerie Sutton <0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > escreveu: > SignWriting List > February 4th, 2021 > > Hello Melquiedes - > Your English is excellent! > > I would love a copy of your book, Melquiedes. Thank you. I will write to you. > > Congratulations to your daughter and author, Maria Alice Floriano Franco ;-) > > I will create a link on our SignWriting site to your video about the book. > > I used Google Translate to translate some information into English, from the Portuguese you posted, under the video. See below. > > BÔNUS: > NA COMPRA DO LIVRO VOCÊ GANHA UM CURSO BÁSICO DE LIBRAS 100% ON LINE. E PARTICIPARÁ DA NOSSA COMUNIDADE NO FACEBOOK PARA APRENDER TODOS OS SINAIS EXISTENTES NO LIVRO. > O APRENDIZADO É CONTEXTUALIZADO COM IMAGENS DAS CENAS DA HISTÓRIA, COM AVATARES QUE MOSTRAM AS DIREÇÕES DAS CONFIGURAÇÕES MANUAIS E ALGUMAS EXPRESSÕES FACIAIS. > ALÉM DISSO, VOCÊ APRENDERÁ A ESCRITA DE SINAIS DE TODOS OS SINAIS MOSTRADOS NA OBRA. TEMOS UMA SÉRIE DE BÔNUS QUE SERÃO LIBERADOS NOS PRÓXIMOS MESES. TAIS COMO E-BOOKS, PLAYLISTS DE LIVES PRIVADAS COM CONTEÚDO EXPLICATIVO SOBRE O TEMA DO LIVRO. > E TEM MAIS... NOS PRÓXIMOS MESES VOCÊ TERÁ ACESSO A JOGOS INTERATIVOS DIDÁTICOS PARA FIXAR O APRENDIZADO ADQUIRIDO NA COMUNIDADE. > > ENGLISH TRANSLATION: > BONUS: > IN PURCHASING THE BOOK YOU GET A BASIC COURSE OF LIBRAS 100% ON LINE. AND YOU WILL PARTICIPATE IN OUR COMMUNITY ON FACEBOOK TO LEARN ALL SIGNS IN THE BOOK. > LEARNING IS CONTEXTUALIZED WITH IMAGES OF HISTORY SCENES, WITH AVATARS THAT SHOW THE DIRECTIONS OF MANUAL SETTINGS AND SOME FACIAL EXPRESSIONS. > ALSO, YOU WILL LEARN THE WRITING OF SIGNS OF ALL THE SIGNS SHOWN IN THE WORK. WE HAVE A BONUS SERIES TO BE RELEASED IN THE NEXT MONTHS. SUCH AS E-BOOKS, PLAYLISTS OF PRIVATE BOOKS WITH EXPLANATORY CONTENT ABOUT THE BOOK'S THEME. > AND IT'S MORE ... IN THE NEXT MONTHS YOU WILL HAVE ACCESS TO INTERACTIVE TEACHING GAMES TO FIX THE LEARNING ACQUIRED IN THE COMMUNITY. > > > How do people purchase the book? > > Val ;-) > > ------------- > > > >> On Feb 3, 2021, at 1:47 PM, Melquiedes Ferreira Franco > wrote: >> >> Wow! you answer me so fast. Thank you for your attention!!! >> Yes, of course, iI would like to see the book on the signwriting website. unfortunately, there is no downloadable version of this book. >> It is sold only in the physical version. >> I would like to know how I can send a book as a gift. That would be an honor for us. >> I was responsible for signwriting, but the author of the book is my daughter, Maria Alice Floriano Franco. >> I´m waiting for your address. >> If I making some mistakes in English, I´m sorry, my English working in progress. >> >> Thank you so much. >> >> Melquiedes. >> >> >> Em qua., 3 de fev. de 2021 às 17:18, Valerie Sutton <0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > escreveu: >> SignWriting List >> February 3, 2021 >> >> Thank you, Melquiedes Ferreira Franco, for informing us about your new book “A Saga do Surdo”, which includes beautiful pages of illustrations with LIBRAS (Brazilian Sign Language) written in SignWriting. And what a great history!! Thank you for the YouTube introduction - so beautiful! How can we purchase or download this book? Do you want me to link to this on our SignWriting site? It would be an honor... >> >> https://youtu.be/_Es24V12sOQ >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Feb 3, 2021, at 11:12 AM, Melquiedes Ferreira Franco > wrote: >>> >>> Hi! Valerie Sutton and other members of the group, my name is Melquiedes, I am a history teacher, brazilian sign language interpreter, so, I would like to present you our bilingual book Portuguese / Libras / sign writing, our goal is to promote sign language and sig writing as well. >>> >>> The literary work 'A Saga do Surdo' tells the trajectory of the deaf in the history of mankind, in order to aggregate deaf literature and provide the experience of a bilingual reading to its readers, encouraging and disseminating Libras (Brazilian sign language). >>> >>> Accessible in Libras (Brazilian sign language), with texts in Portuguese and SignWriting (Sign Writing), the illustrated book covers the main facts of this history, starting in Ancient Egypt until the achievement of the liberation of sign language (Congress of Paris - 1971), after the Oralist Empire. >>> >>> In a simple and summarized way, the reader will have at hand a brief summary of more than 4000 years of history, in addition, he will be able to learn Libras, Portuguese and Sign Writing in a didactic way. >>> >>> You can see more by watching the video. >>> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=TLPQMzAwMTIwMjF6YiS2ykRMKg&v=_Es24V12sOQ&feature=emb_logo >>> >>> Melquiedes Ferreira Franco. > > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Thank you Melquiedes.png Type: image/png Size: 518088 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG Tue Apr 27 18:36:01 2021 From: sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG (Valerie Sutton) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 15:36:01 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] Thank you for "A Saga Do Surdo"! Message-ID: <619909A8-70ED-4E7C-BC04-82FE79960375@signwriting.org> SignWriting List April 27, 2021 Hello Maria Alice Floriano Franco and Melquiedes Ferreira Franco! Thank you for "A Saga Do Surdo”! ;-) https://youtu.be/4vtjTM491sk It arrived very well, a few weeks ago, and it is my fault that I did not tell you sooner. It is an honor to see SignWriting used so beautifully around the world. Would you like me to make you a PDF from the book? I am happy to help ;-) Val ;-) Valerie Sutton sutton at signwriting.org ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: mq2.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 10479 bytes Desc: not available URL: From 00000002a18e4451-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU Tue Apr 27 23:50:00 2021 From: 00000002a18e4451-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU (Jonathan Duncan) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 21:50:00 -0600 Subject: [Sw-l] [SPAM] Re: Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: <7A9944EF-785F-473F-B14F-C7F86B39389F@SIGNWRITING.ORG> References: <2FC8FC1F-461B-4ED2-B726-8A332F4BD08A@gmail.com> <547AE4F1-07F4-4D1C-B694-A34A197D2144@signwriting.org> <2ABE1B97-D8D3-456B-861C-79390B5F7B91@gmail.com> <7A9944EF-785F-473F-B14F-C7F86B39389F@SIGNWRITING.ORG> Message-ID: <4e610728-009c-b3c1-782a-5ce28a49696e@yahoo.ca> Hello Adam, Andre, Cherie, Kacio, Steve, Val and everyone - It's interesting to see so many ways to do things and the combination of viewpoints that is different than the usual way of reading it. I personally prefer the sizes.  As it feels clear, and the way I would write it on paper if I didn't have a movement, or maybe even if I did, just to emphasize the depth. I really like the symbol sizes, and I've included as part of my SignWriting programs which was in 2005,  and has been able to write it to FSW since Steve and I collaborated on the styling. If my memory serves me right, it was concluded that symbol size wasn't necessary to write everyday signwriting.  And it was also much harder to size the PNGs nicely than it is to size the SVGs and Fonts we have today. I agree with you Steve, that it's good to have a separation between text and styling.  And if we change all the symbols by the same % then that is more of a styling than anything else, as if they are all a different size, or if the size isn't changed, it all means the same.  However I do think that we should support different symbols sizes within a sign and for the meaning to depend on the size of the symbols to be able to write what Adam is signing or more exactly, similar examples which do not have movement.  Not that we would use different sizes in the all the signs but that some we can change their size to denote depth when we want to.  And it would be part of the sign and not the styling because removing the size would change the meaning of those signs.  My programs have a separate data structure with can record the size of each individual symbol, which was always lost going to FSW until we got the styling.  But is still lost on some of the other software which doesn't always permit importing some of the styling like the older SignMaker 2015. Of course, for the current common encodings like FSW, etc to record which symbols are not at their default size within the sign part instead of the styling, would require extending the current specifications.  Or we could agree on a basic JSON representation which is a much more flexible data structure and is the common way of sharing and storing data in almost every programming language and in many modern databases. I knew a deaf who wrote his notes, either expressive viewpoint from the back or expressive from the side.  I never saw him draw any from the top.  With just those two views, you could write everything without even having different types of arrows.  But it requires, stating in each sign which viewpoint is drawn.  He would change from one to the other with a quick body manikin in each sign.  We see other signers more often from the side than from the top, so I think it's an easier transition to write oneself from the side than from the top.  I'm not advocating we all write like he did, but I believe that in the case that when depth isn't clear with the expressive view, like in this special case Adam is mentioning, I believe it would prefer to read it from the side view than from the expressive back view. When we can easily write everything we sign the way we normally sign and read it back and sign it the same again, and not feeling that we should sign something just a bit differently so that we can write it without too much trouble, then that would be a perfect writing system. And I believe that that has been and should be the goal of great sign writing systems like SignWriting.  If we can write things simply and intuitively with different size symbols instead of having to switch views to write some signs, then I believe it is improving the ease of use and the ease of adoption of SignWriting. But in the case of writing with software that doesn't do symbol by symbol sizes, I prefer the side view. Thanks for letting me share my 2cents Jonathan On 4/22/2021 11:13 AM, Valerie Sutton wrote: > SignWrting List > April 22, 2021 > > Hello Adam, Andre, Cherie, Kacio, Steve, Jonathan and everyone - > > As you know, the Top View can be mixed with the Front View. The Head > in Top View establishes the “depth” but the rest of the sign .. the > hands, the movements … can be written in the Front View, placed either > near or far from the Head & body. It sounds crazy, but this > combination of viewpoints seems to be working for readers. > > And looking at the above diagram I can see other ways to write it too. > So there are a variety of choices. For me, the Movement Arrow gives me > the depth information, but if you do not want to use an arrow, then > the old “sizes” work very well. > > Originally SignWriting was designed to keep the writing ALL Front > View, using "size of symbols" to write the depth perspective of “far > away”. Smaller symbols represented “far away”. > > > > I am aware of the point, that Rich Text is great for individual > documents or signs that can be captured in graphics so the information > is not lost, but in an actual symbolset, the information of “small” vs > “large” would be lost if it is just plain text. > > Nonetheless, I am glad to know I can access the smaller symbols in the > two programs and I plan to use it for some demonstrations. > > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > > > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: > sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > > > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page > http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > > > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages > http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > > ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: part1.708400B8.png Type: image/png Size: 5093 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG Wed Apr 28 01:33:20 2021 From: sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG (Valerie Sutton) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 22:33:20 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] [SPAM] Re: Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: <4e610728-009c-b3c1-782a-5ce28a49696e@yahoo.ca> References: <4e610728-009c-b3c1-782a-5ce28a49696e@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <83B3D245-D391-400A-94FD-26C0E381592F@signwriting.org> SignWriting List April 27, 2021 Thank you, Jonathan, for discussing writing from the Side View instead of the Top View. Was the Deaf writer you mentioned who wrote some signs from the Side View - was he or she from Honduras? Is there anyone else who writes some signs from the Side View? Can someone post an example? Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 27, 2021, at 8:50 PM, Jonathan Duncan <00000002a18e4451-dmarc-request at listserv.valenciacollege.edu> wrote: > >  > Hello Adam, Andre, Cherie, Kacio, Steve, Val and everyone - > > It's interesting to see so many ways to do things and the combination of viewpoints that is different than the usual way of reading it. > > I personally prefer the sizes. As it feels clear, and the way I would write it on paper if I didn't have a movement, or maybe even if I did, just to emphasize the depth. > > I really like the symbol sizes, and I've included as part of my SignWriting programs which was in 2005, and has been able to write it to FSW since Steve and I collaborated on the styling. If my memory serves me right, it was concluded that symbol size wasn't necessary to write everyday signwriting. And it was also much harder to size the PNGs nicely than it is to size the SVGs and Fonts we have today. > > I agree with you Steve, that it's good to have a separation between text and styling. And if we change all the symbols by the same % then that is more of a styling than anything else, as if they are all a different size, or if the size isn't changed, it all means the same. However I do think that we should support different symbols sizes within a sign and for the meaning to depend on the size of the symbols to be able to write what Adam is signing or more exactly, similar examples which do not have movement. Not that we would use different sizes in the all the signs but that some we can change their size to denote depth when we want to. And it would be part of the sign and not the styling because removing the size would change the meaning of those signs. My programs have a separate data structure with can record the size of each individual symbol, which was always lost going to FSW until we got the styling. But is still lost on some of the other software which doesn't always permit importing some of the styling like the older SignMaker 2015. > > Of course, for the current common encodings like FSW, etc to record which symbols are not at their default size within the sign part instead of the styling, would require extending the current specifications. Or we could agree on a basic JSON representation which is a much more flexible data structure and is the common way of sharing and storing data in almost every programming language and in many modern databases. > > I knew a deaf who wrote his notes, either expressive viewpoint from the back or expressive from the side. I never saw him draw any from the top. With just those two views, you could write everything without even having different types of arrows. But it requires, stating in each sign which viewpoint is drawn. He would change from one to the other with a quick body manikin in each sign. We see other signers more often from the side than from the top, so I think it's an easier transition to write oneself from the side than from the top. I'm not advocating we all write like he did, but I believe that in the case that when depth isn't clear with the expressive view, like in this special case Adam is mentioning, I believe it would prefer to read it from the side view than from the expressive back view. > > When we can easily write everything we sign the way we normally sign and read it back and sign it the same again, and not feeling that we should sign something just a bit differently so that we can write it without too much trouble, then that would be a perfect writing system. And I believe that that has been and should be the goal of great sign writing systems like SignWriting. If we can write things simply and intuitively with different size symbols instead of having to switch views to write some signs, then I believe it is improving the ease of use and the ease of adoption of SignWriting. > > But in the case of writing with software that doesn't do symbol by symbol sizes, I prefer the side view. > > Thanks for letting me share my 2cents > > Jonathan > > On 4/22/2021 11:13 AM, Valerie Sutton wrote: >> SignWrting List >> April 22, 2021 >> >> Hello Adam, Andre, Cherie, Kacio, Steve, Jonathan and everyone - >> >> As you know, the Top View can be mixed with the Front View. The Head in Top View establishes the “depth” but the rest of the sign .. the hands, the movements … can be written in the Front View, placed either near or far from the Head & body. It sounds crazy, but this combination of viewpoints seems to be working for readers. >> >> And looking at the above diagram I can see other ways to write it too. So there are a variety of choices. For me, the Movement Arrow gives me the depth information, but if you do not want to use an arrow, then the old “sizes” work very well. >> >> Originally SignWriting was designed to keep the writing ALL Front View, using "size of symbols" to write the depth perspective of “far away”. Smaller symbols represented “far away”. >> >> >> >> >> I am aware of the point, that Rich Text is great for individual documents or signs that can be captured in graphics so the information is not lost, but in an actual symbolset, the information of “small” vs “large” would be lost if it is just plain text. >> >> Nonetheless, I am glad to know I can access the smaller symbols in the two programs and I plan to use it for some demonstrations. >> >> ________________________________________________ >> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >> >> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >> >> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >> >> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >> >> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >> > ________________________________________________ > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From joyoduncan at GMAIL.COM Wed Apr 28 09:42:58 2021 From: joyoduncan at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Duncan) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2021 07:42:58 -0600 Subject: [Sw-l] [SPAM] Re: Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: <83B3D245-D391-400A-94FD-26C0E381592F@signwriting.org> References: <4e610728-009c-b3c1-782a-5ce28a49696e@yahoo.ca> <83B3D245-D391-400A-94FD-26C0E381592F@signwriting.org> Message-ID: Hi Val,     Yes, that Deaf was from Honduras. Jonathan On 4/27/2021 11:33 PM, Valerie Sutton wrote: > SignWriting List > April 27, 2021 > > Thank you, Jonathan, for discussing writing from the Side View instead > of the Top View. Was the Deaf writer you mentioned who wrote some > signs from the Side View - was he or she from Honduras? Is there > anyone else who writes some signs from the Side View? Can someone post > an example? > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Apr 27, 2021, at 8:50 PM, Jonathan Duncan >> <00000002a18e4451-dmarc-request at listserv.valenciacollege.edu> wrote: >> >>  >> >> Hello Adam, Andre, Cherie, Kacio, Steve, Val and everyone - >> >> It's interesting to see so many ways to do things and the combination >> of viewpoints that is different than the usual way of reading it. >> >> I personally prefer the sizes.  As it feels clear, and the way I >> would write it on paper if I didn't have a movement, or maybe even if >> I did, just to emphasize the depth. >> >> I really like the symbol sizes, and I've included as part of my >> SignWriting programs which was in 2005,  and has been able to write >> it to FSW since Steve and I collaborated on the styling. If my memory >> serves me right, it was concluded that symbol size wasn't necessary >> to write everyday signwriting.  And it was also much harder to size >> the PNGs nicely than it is to size the SVGs and Fonts we have today. >> >> I agree with you Steve, that it's good to have a separation between >> text and styling.  And if we change all the symbols by the same % >> then that is more of a styling than anything else, as if they are all >> a different size, or if the size isn't changed, it all means the >> same. However I do think that we should support different symbols >> sizes within a sign and for the meaning to depend on the size of the >> symbols to be able to write what Adam is signing or more exactly, >> similar examples which do not have movement.  Not that we would use >> different sizes in the all the signs but that some we can change >> their size to denote depth when we want to.  And it would be part of >> the sign and not the styling because removing the size would change >> the meaning of those signs.  My programs have a separate data >> structure with can record the size of each individual symbol, which >> was always lost going to FSW until we got the styling.  But is still >> lost on some of the other software which doesn't always permit >> importing some of the styling like the older SignMaker 2015. >> >> Of course, for the current common encodings like FSW, etc to record >> which symbols are not at their default size within the sign part >> instead of the styling, would require extending the current >> specifications.  Or we could agree on a basic JSON representation >> which is a much more flexible data structure and is the common way of >> sharing and storing data in almost every programming language and in >> many modern databases. >> >> I knew a deaf who wrote his notes, either expressive viewpoint from >> the back or expressive from the side.  I never saw him draw any from >> the top.  With just those two views, you could write everything >> without even having different types of arrows.  But it requires, >> stating in each sign which viewpoint is drawn.  He would change from >> one to the other with a quick body manikin in each sign. We see other >> signers more often from the side than from the top, so I think it's >> an easier transition to write oneself from the side than from the >> top.  I'm not advocating we all write like he did, but I believe that >> in the case that when depth isn't clear with the expressive view, >> like in this special case Adam is mentioning, I believe it would >> prefer to read it from the side view than from the expressive back view. >> >> When we can easily write everything we sign the way we normally sign >> and read it back and sign it the same again, and not feeling that we >> should sign something just a bit differently so that we can write it >> without too much trouble, then that would be a perfect writing >> system. And I believe that that has been and should be the goal of >> great sign writing systems like SignWriting.  If we can write things >> simply and intuitively with different size symbols instead of having >> to switch views to write some signs, then I believe it is improving >> the ease of use and the ease of adoption of SignWriting. >> >> But in the case of writing with software that doesn't do symbol by >> symbol sizes, I prefer the side view. >> >> Thanks for letting me share my 2cents >> >> Jonathan >> >> On 4/22/2021 11:13 AM, Valerie Sutton wrote: >>> SignWrting List >>> April 22, 2021 >>> >>> Hello Adam, Andre, Cherie, Kacio, Steve, Jonathan and everyone - >>> >>> As you know, the Top View can be mixed with the Front View. The Head >>> in Top View establishes the “depth” but the rest of the sign .. the >>> hands, the movements … can be written in the Front View, placed >>> either near or far from the Head & body. It sounds crazy, but this >>> combination of viewpoints seems to be working for readers. >>> >>> And looking at the above diagram I can see other ways to write it >>> too. So there are a variety of choices. For me, the Movement Arrow >>> gives me the depth information, but if you do not want to use an >>> arrow, then the old “sizes” work very well. >>> >>> Originally SignWriting was designed to keep the writing ALL Front >>> View, using "size of symbols" to write the depth perspective of “far >>> away”. Smaller symbols represented “far away”. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I am aware of the point, that Rich Text is great for individual >>> documents or signs that can be captured in graphics so the >>> information is not lost, but in an actual symbolset, the information >>> of “small” vs “large” would be lost if it is just plain text. >>> >>> Nonetheless, I am glad to know I can access the smaller symbols in >>> the two programs and I plan to use it for some demonstrations. >>> >>> ________________________________________________ >>> >>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>> >>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>> >>> >>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: >>> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>> >>> >>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page >>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>> >>> >>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages >>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >>> >>> >> ________________________________________________ >> >> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >> >> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >> >> >> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: >> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >> >> >> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page >> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >> >> >> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages >> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >> >> > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > > > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: > sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > > > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page > http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > > > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages > http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > > ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jsm88b at GMAIL.COM Wed Apr 28 11:08:55 2021 From: jsm88b at GMAIL.COM (Josenilson da Silva Mendes) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2021 12:08:55 -0300 Subject: [Sw-l] S=?UTF-8?Q?=C3=ADmbolos_de_localiza=C3=A7=C3=A3o_?=exata In-Reply-To: <025CA62C-09F6-48D2-94AF-D76150ED5FEC@gmail.com> References: <901B656C-4A99-49D8-AAA2-46BA382548E5@mac.com> <025CA62C-09F6-48D2-94AF-D76150ED5FEC@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thank you very much for your reply! I am thinking of making some videos with written signs from ASL and Libras using the exact location symbols to exemplify. I'll upload the private videos to YouTube and consult with the signwriting list team. If everything is correct, I will make them public. Josenilson Mendes Em ter., 27 de abr. de 2021 às 01:16, Adam Frost escreveu: > Hello Josenilson Mendes, > > For the most part, your understanding of these symbols are correct and > about as well as I understand them myself. I have never seen these symbols > used in actual writing of signs; however, I can see them being used in > SignSpelling which is used for sorting signs. > > They might be helpful and/or necessary to differentiate between different > signs when the symbols are taken from the 3D writing and arranged into a 2D > string for sorting. It might also be helpful for researchers to include > spatial information to search across a database of signs. > > I have added some comments below so you know which symbols I am referring > to. I hope this helps you understand these symbols even though I can’t > think of any specific signs that use these symbols. > > > Adam > > On Apr 26, 2021, at 6:27 PM, Valerie Sutton < > 0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU> wrote: > > SignWriting List > April 26, 2021 > > Google Translation into English: > > We know that symbols of exact location are not commonly used, but they > serve specific purposes for linguistic studies of sign languages. I wonder > if there are any examples of using these exact location symbols in any sign > language. > > We know that this refer to the wall plan: > > How could I use it to describe a signal? Can anyone show me an example? > Would the central point of the octagon be at hip height? > > > Yes, your understanding of these symbols see to be correct. These symbols > would be like telling a location on a wall in front of the signer where the > middle line is likely at the waist or hip height. My guess is that the > first symbol is just a general height indicator of above the center of the > body (or the hip as you stated). The black in the other symbols tell how > much higher or lower from the center point the location is. > > > We know that these refer to the ground plane: > > > How could I use it to describe a signal? Can anyone show me an example? > Does the central point of the octagon refer to the axis of the body, from > head to toe? > > > These symbols would be as if it was on the floor and the signer is > standing in the center. So the first symbol would be to indicate location > in front, while the next three detail how specifically close or far from > the front of the signer. > > > These below refer to the distance of a signal from the body in a top view, > correct? > > > The dash refers to the space in front of the body where a signal is made > and moves, correct? > > > Yes, these three symbols would be telling how close or far from the front > of the signer. In a sense, these three symbols have the same meaning as the > last three in the previous series. > > > These below refer to the height in relation to the torso at which a signal > is made, correct? > > > Correct, these symbols would have a clear relation to the height on the > body that the first series of symbols didn’t have. > > > These below relate to the longitudinal axis of the body and in what > position the signal is made, correct? > > > Yes, that is correct. These symbols give the location on a vertical line > across the body. > > > We know that these below refer to points of contact or exact location on > limbs or parts of the body. > > But what do the white and black circles mean? Are the circles related to > the perspective of the sign? Is there an example? > > > Yes, these symbols give specific location on the arms, fingers, hand, and > torso (in that order). The difference between the circles is the front and > back. I might have this mixed up, but I believe the black circles would be > the locations that you see if you were standing behind the signer, and the > white circles would be the locations that you would see if you were > standing in front of the signer. > > > Is there any video or written material about these exact location symbols? > > Thank you for the answers! > > > ------------- > > On Apr 26, 2021, at 3:26 PM, Josenilson da Silva Mendes > wrote: > > Caros amigos da SW-List, Valerie e Adam, > > > Sabemos que os símbolos de localização exata não são de uso corrente, mas > servem para fins específicos de estudos linguísticos de línguas de sinais. > Gostaria de saber se há algum exemplo de uso destes símbolos de localização > exata em qualquer língua de sinais. > > Sabemos que este se referem ao plano parede: > > Como eu poderia usá-lo para descrever um sinal? Alguém pode me mostrar um > exemplo? O ponto central do octógono estaria na altura do quadril? > > Sabemos que este se referem ao plano chão: > > Como eu poderia usá-lo para descrever um sinal? Alguém pode me mostrar um > exemplo? O ponto central do octógono se refere ao eixo do corpo, da cabeça > aos pés? > > Estes abaixo se referem à distância da realização de um sinal em relação > ao corpo em uma visão de cima, correto? > > O traço se refere ao espaço à frente do corpo onde um sinal é realizado e > se move, correto? > > Estes abaixo se referem à altura em relação ao torso em que se realiza um > sinal, correto? > > Estes abaixo se relacionam ao eixo longitudinal do corpo e em que posição > o sinal é realizado, correto? > > > Sabemos que estes abaixo se referem a pontos de contato ou localização > exata em membros ou partes do corpo. > > > Mas o que significam os círculos branco e o preto? Os círculos estão > relacionados à perspectiva do sinalizante? Há algum exemplo? > > Existe algum material em vídeo ou escrito sobre estes símbolos de > localização exata? > > Já agradeço pelas respostas! > > Josenilson Mendes > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page > http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages > http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > > > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page > http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages > http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > > > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page > http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages > http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 2851 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG Wed Apr 28 11:56:33 2021 From: sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG (Valerie Sutton) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2021 08:56:33 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] Some Videos on SignWriting Message-ID: <5E40DE95-1E53-468A-B80E-6354AA74FAAE@SIGNWRITING.ORG> SignWriting List April 28, 2021 Some Videos on SignWriting SignWriting Channel on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/c/SignWritingOrg Automatic Sign Language Transcription by Amit Moryossef https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5lw52VKoyOgjNqsAUHwP7w SignWriting Finger Movement Symbols Video Playlist by Adam Frost & Lucinda O’Grady https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLtucu7rJajwZtfv42L8CE2lRyT3xyf1E3 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 From jsm88b at GMAIL.COM Wed Apr 28 11:12:45 2021 From: jsm88b at GMAIL.COM (Josenilson da Silva Mendes) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2021 12:12:45 -0300 Subject: [Sw-l] =?utf-8?q?=5BSPAM=5D_Re=3A_=5BSW-L=5D_Tamanho_de_alguns_s_?= =?utf-8?q?=C3=ADmbolos?= In-Reply-To: References: <8CA86E83-7562-4D8A-A8B1-DC9450FCBF90@mac.com> <59BA67EB-77AE-4A1C-B16F-447D43D03F9B@mac.com> Message-ID: Thanks, Adam and Valerie! It seems that there is still a doubt between you. I know the system is already 46 years old😁! I hope you find a more detailed description in old documents. I have always used these symbols as described by Valerie. If there is little space to write them, I select the smaller symbols. However, some researchers here follow the perspective described by Adam that the smallest symbols are for the movement of one finger and the largest for all fingers. The excellent book by Madson and Raquel, I learned a lot from them, does not talk about different sizes for the symbols of finger movements. I constantly refer to the ISWA 2010 reference manual. I had already watched Adam's videos. They are very good! About this particular video, some researchers here believe that the squeeze movement symbol replaces the fist handshape. That is why they write the sign of love, in Libras, like this: [image: image.png] meaning this: [image: image.png] Or they write like this for to hold: [image: image.png] To say this correctly: [image: image.png] Until next time! Josenilson Em ter., 27 de abr. de 2021 às 13:08, Física em Libras < tr.vanessa.ferreira at gmail.com> escreveu: > I usually use them to register if the Finger open just a little or wide > open. > > Vanessa Cristina da Silva Ferreira > > Mestranda em Educação em Ciências e Matemática/PPGEduCIMAT/UFRRJ > Licenciada em Física/UFRRJ > Colaboradora do Coletivo PNE/UFRRJ > Colaboradora do Projeto Cultura Visual - Imersão na Libras - DLC/UFRRJ > Colaboradora do Projeto Meninas do Radium - LEFERCE - UFRRJ > > Em seg, 26 de abr de 2021 20:28, Valerie Sutton < > 0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at listserv.valenciacollege.edu> escreveu: > >> Hi Adam - >> I appreciate your answer truly. ;-) >> >> I guess I meant “more than one finger” - I am not sure either - I am >> trying to remember why we put two different sizes in the ISWA 2010 - it was >> a lot of work to do that - Originally I did the dot-by-dot development for >> the pngs, and then you did the SVG (thank you so much, Adam ;-). So when >> you think about it, there had to be a reason! >> >> For those who might be interested, Adam did videos teaching these symbols: >> >> https://youtu.be/F4wIpupyNtY >> >> I will write again when I find a really good answer ;-) >> >> Val ;-) >> >> >> >> On Apr 26, 2021, at 4:17 PM, Adam Frost wrote: >> >> I am not sure about the meaning of “more than one”. In fact, when you put >> it that way, it doesn’t seem right. :-) >> >> Like I said, I don't personally write with the smaller symbols, so it is >> possible I understand it wrong. :-) >> >> Yes, I think we need to check out the older documents. :-) >> >> >> Adam >> >> On Apr 26, 2021, at 4:08 PM, Valerie Sutton >> wrote: >> >> SignWriting List >> April 26, 2021 >> >> QUESTION: Small and large Finger Movement Symbols - does size mean how >> many fingers move? >> >> ANSWER: No. My memory was that the Size is there just for convenience >> when writing. Some signs need more space to write and so the smaller size >> is useful in those cases, and some signs look better with the larger >> symbol. I see Adam feels they do mean “more than one”, but no matter what, >> they are “one time movement”. If they move “open-open” - in other words - >> two movements in a row - then there are two written - >> >> Let me look up our early textbooks to be sure of all this (smile)! Did >> you know that the system in 46 years old? And some of these particulars >> evolved over time - so it would be good to review it - >> >> What did Madson and Raquel’s book “SignWriting Without Mysteries” say? >> >> The symbols are listed in the ISWA 2010 HTML Reference Manual Online. >> Here is Group 12: >> >> https://www.signbank.org/iswa/216_sg.html >> >> >> >> >> ________________________ >> >> >> SignWriting List >> April 26, 2021 >> >> English Translation from Google: >> >> Dear Valerie and Adam Frost, A question arose among some fellow >> SignWriting researchers as to why these symbols have different sizes. When >> should we write the largest and when should we write the smallest? Does it >> have anything to do with the amount of fingers that move? >> Grateful for the attention! Josenilson Mendes >> >> ____________ >> >> On Apr 26, 2021, at 3:20 PM, Josenilson da Silva Mendes >> wrote: >> >> Caros Valerie e Adam Frost, >> >> Surgiu uma dúvida entre alguns colegas pesquisadores de escrita de sinais >> sobre a razão pela qual estes símbolos têm tamanhos diferentes. Quando >> devemos escrever o maior e quando escrever o menor? Tem alguma relação com >> a quantidade de dedos que se movem? >> >> Grato pela atenção! >> Josenilson Mendes >> ________________________________________________ >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________________________ >> >> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >> >> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >> >> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >> >> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page >> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >> >> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages >> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >> >> >> ________________________________________________ >> >> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >> >> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >> >> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >> >> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page >> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >> >> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages >> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >> >> >> ________________________________________________ >> >> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >> >> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >> >> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >> >> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page >> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >> >> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages >> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >> > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page > http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages > http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 4392 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 3391 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 4552 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 2896 bytes Desc: not available URL: From slevin at SIGNPUDDLE.NET Thu Apr 29 08:13:53 2021 From: slevin at SIGNPUDDLE.NET (Stephen Slevinski) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2021 07:13:53 -0500 Subject: [Sw-l] New German Sign Language dictionary and other developments Message-ID: <51f3ecdf-1900-10ab-0a24-04fc55d3a38a@signpuddle.net> Hi SignWriting list, It's really great hearing about new developments with SignWriting. Recently Shinichiro Nakayama posted two videos from Edogawa Ward, Tokyo. He uses SignWriting to teach Japanese Sign Language. * https://www.facebook.com/groups/SuttonSignWriting Searching Twitter, I came across a new German Sign Language dictionary available online. It's called sign2mint and it uses SignWriting images from Delegs. * https://sign2mint.de * https://delegs.de This week I was contacted about a new secret project. I'm not allowed to share any of the details yet. You've probably heard of the company. This could be huge. I miss working full-time with SignWriting. I'm hoping to return to full-time development in the coming years. There is still a lot to do and it's so much fun. Regards, -Steve https://steve.signwriting.org ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG Thu Apr 29 10:13:40 2021 From: sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG (Valerie Sutton) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2021 07:13:40 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] New German Sign Language dictionary and other developments In-Reply-To: <51f3ecdf-1900-10ab-0a24-04fc55d3a38a@signpuddle.net> References: <51f3ecdf-1900-10ab-0a24-04fc55d3a38a@signpuddle.net> Message-ID: <281AF147-463A-4C8E-A9B9-C9751E9DA68F@signwriting.org> SignWriting List April 29, 2021 Hello SignWriting List, and Steve ;-) Thank you for telling us about these projects using SignWriting in Japan and Germany! Wonderful to follow the links to see the videos. And many thanks to the DELEGS software team for providing the software, that is connected with SignPuddle Online. I am so happy to see the German Online dictionary that has developed from that - wow ;-) And yesterday I was contacted by two other projects that are brand new from other countries too - it is a busy time! So happy Steve, to hear of all your work and of course we are happy that all is so fulfilling - Thank you for all you do everyday to keep SignWriting afloat - Have a great day! Val ;-) ----------------- > On Apr 29, 2021, at 5:13 AM, Stephen Slevinski wrote: > > Hi SignWriting list, > > It's really great hearing about new developments with SignWriting. > > Recently Shinichiro Nakayama posted two videos from Edogawa Ward, Tokyo. > He uses SignWriting to teach Japanese Sign Language. > * https://www.facebook.com/groups/SuttonSignWriting > > Searching Twitter, I came across a new German Sign Language dictionary available online. > It's called sign2mint and it uses SignWriting images from Delegs. > * https://sign2mint.de > * https://delegs.de > > This week I was contacted about a new secret project. > I'm not allowed to share any of the details yet. > You've probably heard of the company. > This could be huge. > > I miss working full-time with SignWriting. > I'm hoping to return to full-time development in the coming years. > There is still a lot to do and it's so much fun. > > Regards, > -Steve > https://steve.signwriting.org > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jsm88b at GMAIL.COM Thu Apr 29 16:09:58 2021 From: jsm88b at GMAIL.COM (Josenilson da Silva Mendes) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2021 17:09:58 -0300 Subject: [Sw-l] Torso movement Message-ID: Dear Valerie, Adam and SignWriting List participants, I have some questions about writing body movement symbols. I transcribed Stefan Goldschmidt's video by SignWriting. The video link is this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gl3vqLeOyEE The transcript link is this: https://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/searchword.php?ui=12&sgn=114&sid=1920&sTrm=bola+de+golfe&type=any&sTxt=&sSrc=& At 0:03 and 0:04 in the video, Stefan moves his torso up and down, respectively. [image: image.png] [image: image.png] [image: image.png] [image: image.png] I transcribed the movements like this: [image: image.png] At the moment 0:10 [image: image.png] [image: image.png] I transcribed it like this: [image: image.png] At the moment 0:26 [image: image.png] I transcribed it like this: [image: image.png] I would like your help on using the torso movement symbols. Should I use only the arrows without the shoulders? Is reading easy? Are there any notes or questions about the complete transcript? I want to do more video transcription work like this. Your help will be very valuable. Thanks! Josenilson ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 274659 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 272088 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 271653 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 9278 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG Thu Apr 29 23:18:17 2021 From: sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG (Valerie Sutton) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2021 20:18:17 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] Torso movement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <98B4B200-B4E4-44B1-8AA9-1C1B01F810DA@signwriting.org> SignWriting List April 29, 2021 Hello Josenilson and team members! You are keeping Adam and me very busy! ;-) Which is wonderful. I just wanted to make some comments on previous answers to your questions, and haven’t had the chance yet to get there... So tomorrow morning is another day… Thank you, everyone, for your active interest in SignWriting - our cup runneth over ;-) Val ;-) ————— > On Apr 29, 2021, at 1:09 PM, Josenilson da Silva Mendes wrote: > > Dear Valerie, Adam and SignWriting List participants, > > I have some questions about writing body movement symbols. > > I transcribed Stefan Goldschmidt's video by SignWriting. The video link is this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gl3vqLeOyEE > The transcript link is this: https://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/searchword.php?ui=12&sgn=114&sid=1920&sTrm=bola+de+golfe&type=any&sTxt=&sSrc=& > At 0:03 and 0:04 in the video, Stefan moves his torso up and down, respectively. > > > > > > > > > > > > > I transcribed the movements like this: > > > > > At the moment 0:10 > > > > > > > > I transcribed it like this: > > > > > At the moment 0:26 > > > > > I transcribed it like this: > > > > > I would like your help on using the torso movement symbols. Should I use only the arrows without the shoulders? Is reading easy? > > Are there any notes or questions about the complete transcript? > > I want to do more video transcription work like this. > > Your help will be very valuable. > > > Thanks! > > Josenilson > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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(on Facebook) Message-ID: <7C758DD6-27BE-488D-8D12-84E95BC13EF3@signwriting.org> SignWriting List April 29, 2021 SignWriting in Japan!! (on Facebook) https://www.facebook.com/100003848814312/videos/pcb.2914305022222760/2009622265842714 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jsm88b at GMAIL.COM Fri Apr 30 13:21:43 2021 From: jsm88b at GMAIL.COM (Josenilson da Silva Mendes) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2021 17:21:43 +0000 Subject: [Sw-l] Some Videos on SignWriting In-Reply-To: <5E40DE95-1E53-468A-B80E-6354AA74FAAE@SIGNWRITING.ORG> References: <5E40DE95-1E53-468A-B80E-6354AA74FAAE@SIGNWRITING.ORG> Message-ID: Josenilson da Silva Mendes está convidando você para uma reunião Zoom agendada. Tópico: Some Videos on SignWriting Entrar na reunião Zoom https://us04web.zoom.us/j/77034817821?pwd=RmRJQk42eFRDc3FjMDRJTzFVNVowdz09 ID da reunião: 770 3481 7821 Senha de acesso: 596745 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG Fri Apr 30 14:01:46 2021 From: sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG (Valerie Sutton) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2021 11:01:46 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] SignWriting Mobile Site Message-ID: <925487A0-9543-4B24-B83C-589DF2D8F0A7@signwriting.org> SignWriting List April 30, 2021 Hello SignWriting List! I am happy to announce a new website for SignWriting: SignWriting Mobile Site by Richard Gleaves https://m.signwriting.org The "m" is short for "mobile" – this website is designed to work well on mobile devices such as tablets and phones. This is a preview version of the website, so it may need some corrections and improvements. In particular, three parts of it are still under construction: search, the Symbol Explorer app, and the News section. Please try out this new website, and post any comments you have about it here on the SignWriting List. Thanks for your feedback! Val ;-) ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG Fri Apr 30 14:13:22 2021 From: sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG (Valerie Sutton) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2021 11:13:22 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] Some Videos on SignWriting In-Reply-To: References: <5E40DE95-1E53-468A-B80E-6354AA74FAAE@SIGNWRITING.ORG> Message-ID: SignWriting List April 30, 2021 Hello SignWriting List and Josenilson! Thank you for your invitation to this zoom meeting. Josenilson da Silva Mendes is inviting you to a scheduled Zoom meeting. What day and time does it begin? Did you know that I do not know Portuguese or LIBRAS? Will there be interpreters, or do you speak English or Danish or ASL? (Big smile) Val ;-) ---------- > On Apr 30, 2021, at 10:21 AM, jsm88b at gmail.com wrote: > > Josenilson da Silva Mendes está convidando você para uma reunião Zoom agendada. > > Tópico: Some Videos on SignWriting > > Entrar na reunião Zoom > https://us04web.zoom.us/j/77034817821?pwd=RmRJQk42eFRDc3FjMDRJTzFVNVowdz09 > > ID da reunião: 770 3481 7821 > Senha de acesso: 596745 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG Fri Apr 30 14:37:12 2021 From: sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG (Valerie Sutton) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2021 11:37:12 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] Some Videos on SignWriting In-Reply-To: References: <5E40DE95-1E53-468A-B80E-6354AA74FAAE@SIGNWRITING.ORG> Message-ID: Tell us when ;-) > On Apr 30, 2021, at 11:13 AM, Valerie Sutton wrote: > > SignWriting List > April 30, 2021 > > Hello SignWriting List and Josenilson! > Thank you for your invitation to this zoom meeting. > > Josenilson da Silva Mendes is inviting you to a scheduled Zoom meeting. > > What day and time does it begin? Did you know that I do not know Portuguese or LIBRAS? Will there be interpreters, or do you speak English or Danish or ASL? (Big smile) > > Val ;-) > > ---------- > >> On Apr 30, 2021, at 10:21 AM, jsm88b at gmail.com wrote: >> >> Josenilson da Silva Mendes está convidando você para uma reunião Zoom agendada. >> >> Tópico: Some Videos on SignWriting >> >> Entrar na reunião Zoom >> https://us04web.zoom.us/j/77034817821?pwd=RmRJQk42eFRDc3FjMDRJTzFVNVowdz09 >> >> ID da reunião: 770 3481 7821 >> Senha de acesso: 596745 > > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jsm88b at GMAIL.COM Fri Apr 30 13:04:04 2021 From: jsm88b at GMAIL.COM (Josenilson da Silva Mendes) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2021 14:04:04 -0300 Subject: [Sw-l] Some Videos on SignWriting In-Reply-To: References: <5E40DE95-1E53-468A-B80E-6354AA74FAAE@SIGNWRITING.ORG> Message-ID: Forgive me! It was an accident😣 Josenilson Mendes Em sex., 30 de abr. de 2021 às 15:37, Valerie Sutton escreveu: > Tell us when ;-) > > > > On Apr 30, 2021, at 11:13 AM, Valerie Sutton > wrote: > > SignWriting List > April 30, 2021 > > Hello SignWriting List and Josenilson! > Thank you for your invitation to this zoom meeting. > > Josenilson da Silva Mendes is inviting you to a scheduled Zoom meeting. > > > What day and time does it begin? Did you know that I do not know > Portuguese or LIBRAS? Will there be interpreters, or do you speak English > or Danish or ASL? (Big smile) > > Val ;-) > > ---------- > > On Apr 30, 2021, at 10:21 AM, jsm88b at gmail.com wrote: > > Josenilson da Silva Mendes está convidando você para uma reunião Zoom > agendada. > > Tópico: Some Videos on SignWriting > > Entrar na reunião Zoom > https://us04web.zoom.us/j/77034817821?pwd=RmRJQk42eFRDc3FjMDRJTzFVNVowdz09 > > ID da reunião: 770 3481 7821 > Senha de acesso: 596745 > > > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page > http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages > http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > > > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page > http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages > http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From 0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU Fri Apr 30 15:09:19 2021 From: 0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU (Valerie Sutton) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2021 12:09:19 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] Some Videos on SignWriting In-Reply-To: References: <5E40DE95-1E53-468A-B80E-6354AA74FAAE@SIGNWRITING.ORG> Message-ID: SignWriting List April 30, 2021 Hello Josenilson! No problem. I look forward to meeting you online in the future. I will be answering your questions soon, along with Adam, who has been wonderful answering so many interesting questions. Adam and I enjoyed chatting on FaceTime yesterday about technical issues and I find it fascinating to discuss these issues. So we have fun times ahead ;-) And this says in ASL (at least in my ASL :-) Look forward to meeting you online! > On Apr 30, 2021, at 10:04 AM, Josenilson da Silva Mendes wrote: > Forgive me! > It was an accident😣 > Josenilson Mendes > ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.png Type: image/png Size: 12563 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG Wed Apr 7 21:48:52 2021 From: sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG (Valerie Sutton) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 14:48:52 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] Amit Moryossef is creating videos using SignWriting! Message-ID: SignWriting List April 7, 2021 Thank you, Amit Moryossef, and software team, for creating videos that use SignWriting symbols! Here is an example of several videos from Amit?s YouTube channel: https://youtu.be/pCKRWSNIaNQ I will post more later - And write to the SignWriting List, or to me privately, any time, to ask questions about symbols and so forth - Valerie Sutton sutton at signwriting.org ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2021-04-07 at 2.42.46 PM.png Type: image/png Size: 273850 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG Wed Apr 7 21:56:49 2021 From: sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG (Valerie Sutton) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 14:56:49 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] Amit Moryossef is creating videos using SignWriting! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: SignWriting List April 7, 2021 Another video. Thank you, Amit! https://youtu.be/L95mA_h0CjA ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Amit Moryossef Video.png Type: image/png Size: 257075 bytes Desc: not available URL: From icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM Thu Apr 15 20:22:07 2021 From: icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM (Adam Frost) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2021 13:22:07 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] Placement of Signs in Space Message-ID: <56B3D8C1-59BB-4B62-9321-D3881E129272@gmail.com> I was doing some writing in SignWriting and came across an issue that I never really thought of in the past. In ASL, scores can be done by placing the teams in a location and then giving the numbers of the score in that location. For example, I can have one team on the right and another on the left. If I sign 4 on the right and then 5 on the left, it clearly says who has what score. This is easily done using the lanes in SignWriting. The issue came into play when it was giving scores for ?my team? vs ?your team?. If I signed 4 near my chest and then 5 away from me, it would means ?I have 4 and you have 5.? When I tried to write this, I wrote the shoulder line over 4 and wrote 5 as I do normally. This didn?t really seem like an issue to me until I had a friend asked me how I knew that 5 was signed away from my body rather than just in the neutral location when signing 5 on its own. I had said I just assumed it, but that got me thinking if there was a simple way to write it so that it would be clear and didn?t have to be assumed. Is there? Adam ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: namesign.png Type: image/png Size: 440 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jennicaj at GMAIL.COM Thu Apr 15 20:37:00 2021 From: jennicaj at GMAIL.COM (Jennica Pounds) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2021 13:37:00 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] Canonical way of representing signwriting programmatically Message-ID: Hi, I'm interested in using SignWriting programmatically. Poking around the Internet, it seems like fonts aren't quite there, and creating SignWriting text is done via computer-aided SVGs. Is that correct? If so, where can I see the latest SVG/XML specifications? Jennica ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From slevin at SIGNPUDDLE.NET Thu Apr 15 22:44:32 2021 From: slevin at SIGNPUDDLE.NET (Stephen Slevinski) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2021 17:44:32 -0500 Subject: [Sw-l] Canonical way of representing signwriting programmatically In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <976424ee-bb61-7462-739e-89184d3d0b47@signpuddle.net> Hi Jennica, You can check out a few YouTube videos if you want. * https://stream.signwriting.org References can be found here: * https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-slevinski-formal-signwriting-07#section-3.3 * https://slevinski.github.io/SuttonSignWriting/components/svg.html You may be interested in the SignWriting Web Components. * https://www.npmjs.com/package/@sutton-signwriting/sgnw-components When creating SVG images for SignWriting, there are two packages you can use. * https://www.npmjs.com/package/@sutton-signwriting/font-ttf * https://www.npmjs.com/package/@sutton-signwriting/font-db font-ttf is used in the browser and uses TTF files to view the images. font-db is used in node and uses a database to create stand-alone svg images. Regards, -Steve On 4/15/21 3:37 PM, Jennica Pounds wrote: > Hi, > > I'm interested in using SignWriting programmatically. Poking around > the Internet, it seems like fonts aren't quite there,?and creating > SignWriting text is done via computer-aided SVGs. > > Is that correct? If so, where can I see the latest SVG/XML > specifications? > > Jennica > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > > > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: > sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > > > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page > http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > > > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages > http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > > ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From 0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU Fri Apr 16 01:17:43 2021 From: 0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU (Valerie Sutton) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2021 18:17:43 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: <56B3D8C1-59BB-4B62-9321-D3881E129272@gmail.com> References: <56B3D8C1-59BB-4B62-9321-D3881E129272@gmail.com> Message-ID: <508FAD7A-00A7-40F1-90DD-831A3C8A2841@mac.com> SignWriting List April 15, 2021 Hello everyone on the SignWriting List, and thank you for this message, Adam ;-) Of course this sounds like a very useful way to write ?teams? in sign language, but can you show us written examples in SignWriting? And since I am not a teacher of a classroom of ASL signers, maybe you could explain to me (and all of us) - what do you mean by ?teams?? Is it for writing some kind of a game in ASL? But to answer your question - the Lanes show us spatial comparisons and weight-shifting to the ?right of center? and to the ?left of center?. They are invaluable for writing spatial comparisons in sign languages. Technically there is a Lane that is ?far in front? and one that is ?close to the chest? - and one that is neutral in signing space - but over time we started to write those differences in ?depth? with Movement Symbols. We actually DID have a way to write ?depth? with hand symbols years ago, in the 1980s. This was a technique that really worked in the early days of SignWriting, when we were writing sign language by hand with ink pens. There were 3 sizes of hand symbols - the normal size we use everyday is the ?middle neutral space?, the smaller version of the symbol means ?far away from the chest? and the larger symbol means closer to the chest. This is based on art perspectives. Further away is always smaller. I have an article about this somewhere - I will try to find it and post it later. But, as time went by, it seemed like too much information that was not necessary for everyday writing, and for computer symbol sets, it was a real problem because it would double or triple the amount of symbols so the idea of "far being smaller" and ?close being larger? was ignored and we have one set of symbols at one size for everything. The ISWA 2010 is large enough! So how do we see ?depth? in everyday writing? Movement Symbols and some standardized spellings have helped. But now - Adam - please post some SignWriting showing us what you have written - many thanks! Val ;-) ---------- > On Apr 15, 2021, at 1:22 PM, Adam Frost wrote: > > I was doing some writing in SignWriting and came across an issue that I never really thought of in the past. In ASL, scores can be done by placing the teams in a location and then giving the numbers of the score in that location. For example, I can have one team on the right and another on the left. If I sign 4 on the right and then 5 on the left, it clearly says who has what score. This is easily done using the lanes in SignWriting. > > The issue came into play when it was giving scores for ?my team? vs ?your team?. If I signed 4 near my chest and then 5 away from me, it would means ?I have 4 and you have 5.? When I tried to write this, I wrote the shoulder line over 4 and wrote 5 as I do normally. This didn?t really seem like an issue to me until I had a friend asked me how I knew that 5 was signed away from my body rather than just in the neutral location when signing 5 on its own. I had said I just assumed it, but that got me thinking if there was a simple way to write it so that it would be clear and didn?t have to be assumed. Is there? > > > Adam > ____________ ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: namesign.png Type: image/png Size: 440 bytes Desc: not available URL: From icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM Fri Apr 16 01:40:47 2021 From: icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM (Adam Frost) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2021 18:40:47 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: <508FAD7A-00A7-40F1-90DD-831A3C8A2841@mac.com> References: <56B3D8C1-59BB-4B62-9321-D3881E129272@gmail.com> <508FAD7A-00A7-40F1-90DD-831A3C8A2841@mac.com> Message-ID: <3CF10F95-B13D-4E27-BDEF-A15D7FB64631@gmail.com> I thought I recall something about the sizing being used for depth, but I don?t think that it would be necessary for everyday writing. Like I said, this situation rarely comes up for me. ;-) Here is a screen capture of what I wrote. It is talking about two baseball teams: The Nationals and the Diamondbacks. Notice the last two signs are supposed to have the depth. I feel that the shoulder line shows the number being closer to the body, but the other number doesn?t have the concept of being away from the body as it is written. As for the concepts of ?teams?, ASL makes use of placing concepts in specific locations all the time. It isn?t limited to names of teams. That is the reason the lanes work so well for this. However, it is common for people to have their preferred teams in sports, so that is where the depth comes into play. Adam > On Apr 15, 2021, at 6:17 PM, Valerie Sutton <0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU> wrote: > > SignWriting List > April 15, 2021 > > Hello everyone on the SignWriting List, and thank you for this message, Adam ;-) > > Of course this sounds like a very useful way to write ?teams? in sign language, but can you show us written examples in SignWriting? > > And since I am not a teacher of a classroom of ASL signers, maybe you could explain to me (and all of us) - what do you mean by ?teams?? Is it for writing some kind of a game in ASL? > > But to answer your question - the Lanes show us spatial comparisons and weight-shifting to the ?right of center? and to the ?left of center?. They are invaluable for writing spatial comparisons in sign languages. > > Technically there is a Lane that is ?far in front? and one that is ?close to the chest? - and one that is neutral in signing space - but over time we started to write those differences in ?depth? with Movement Symbols. We actually DID have a way to write ?depth? with hand symbols years ago, in the 1980s. > > This was a technique that really worked in the early days of SignWriting, when we were writing sign language by hand with ink pens. There were 3 sizes of hand symbols - the normal size we use everyday is the ?middle neutral space?, the smaller version of the symbol means ?far away from the chest? and the larger symbol means closer to the chest. This is based on art perspectives. Further away is always smaller. > > I have an article about this somewhere - I will try to find it and post it later. > > But, as time went by, it seemed like too much information that was not necessary for everyday writing, and for computer symbol sets, it was a real problem because it would double or triple the amount of symbols so the idea of "far being smaller" and ?close being larger? was ignored and we have one set of symbols at one size for everything. The ISWA 2010 is large enough! > > So how do we see ?depth? in everyday writing? Movement Symbols and some standardized spellings have helped. > > But now - Adam - please post some SignWriting showing us what you have written - many thanks! > > Val ;-) > > ---------- > > > >> On Apr 15, 2021, at 1:22 PM, Adam Frost > wrote: >> >> I was doing some writing in SignWriting and came across an issue that I never really thought of in the past. In ASL, scores can be done by placing the teams in a location and then giving the numbers of the score in that location. For example, I can have one team on the right and another on the left. If I sign 4 on the right and then 5 on the left, it clearly says who has what score. This is easily done using the lanes in SignWriting. >> >> The issue came into play when it was giving scores for ?my team? vs ?your team?. If I signed 4 near my chest and then 5 away from me, it would means ?I have 4 and you have 5.? When I tried to write this, I wrote the shoulder line over 4 and wrote 5 as I do normally. This didn?t really seem like an issue to me until I had a friend asked me how I knew that 5 was signed away from my body rather than just in the neutral location when signing 5 on its own. I had said I just assumed it, but that got me thinking if there was a simple way to write it so that it would be clear and didn?t have to be assumed. Is there? >> >> >> Adam >> > > ____________ > > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2021-04-15 at 6.32.37 PM.png Type: image/png Size: 47883 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: namesign.png Type: image/png Size: 440 bytes Desc: not available URL: From atg at VIDEOTRON.CA Fri Apr 16 02:39:07 2021 From: atg at VIDEOTRON.CA (=?ISO-8859-1?B?QW5kcuk=?= Thibeault) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2021 22:39:07 -0400 Subject: [Sw-l] Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello Adaame and Val, I write this: Best regards, Andr? De : Adam Frost R?pondre ? : "SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages" Date : Thu, 15 Apr 2021 18:40:47 -0700 ? : Objet : Re: Placement of Signs in Space I thought I recall something about the sizing being used for depth, but I don?t think that it would be necessary for everyday writing. Like I said, this situation rarely comes up for me. ;-) Here is a screen capture of what I wrote. It is talking about two baseball teams: The Nationals and the Diamondbacks. Notice the last two signs are supposed to have the depth. I feel that the shoulder line shows the number being closer to the body, but the other number doesn?t have the concept of being away from the body as it is written. As for the concepts of ?teams?, ASL makes use of placing concepts in specific locations all the time. It isn?t limited to names of teams. That is the reason the lanes work so well for this. However, it is common for people to have their preferred teams in sports, so that is where the depth comes into play. Adam > On Apr 15, 2021, at 6:17 PM, Valerie Sutton > <0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU> wrote: > > SignWriting List > April 15, 2021 > > Hello everyone on the SignWriting List, and thank you for this message, Adam > ;-) > > Of course this sounds like a very useful way to write ?teams? in sign > language, but can you show us written examples in SignWriting? > > And since I am not a teacher of a classroom of ASL signers, maybe you could > explain to me (and all of us) - what do you mean by ?teams?? Is it for writing > some kind of a game in ASL? > > But to answer your question - the Lanes show us spatial comparisons and > weight-shifting to the ?right of center? and to the ?left of center?. They are > invaluable for writing spatial comparisons in sign languages. > > Technically there is a Lane that is ?far in front? and one that is ?close to > the chest? - and one that is neutral in signing space - but over time we > started to write those differences in ?depth? with Movement Symbols. We > actually DID have a way to write ?depth? with hand symbols years ago, in the > 1980s. > > This was a technique that really worked in the early days of SignWriting, when > we were writing sign language by hand with ink pens. There were 3 sizes of > hand symbols - the normal size we use everyday is the ?middle neutral space?, > the smaller version of the symbol means ?far away from the chest? and the > larger symbol means closer to the chest. This is based on art perspectives. > Further away is always smaller. > > I have an article about this somewhere - I will try to find it and post it > later. > > But, as time went by, it seemed like too much information that was not > necessary for everyday writing, and for computer symbol sets, it was a real > problem because it would double or triple the amount of symbols so the idea of > "far being smaller" and ?close being larger? was ignored and we have one set > of symbols at one size for everything. The ISWA 2010 is large enough! > > So how do we see ?depth? in everyday writing? Movement Symbols and some > standardized spellings have helped. > > But now - Adam - please post some SignWriting showing us what you have written > - many thanks! > > Val ;-) > > ---------- > > > >> On Apr 15, 2021, at 1:22 PM, Adam Frost wrote: >> >> I was doing some writing in SignWriting and came across an issue that I never >> really thought of in the past. In ASL, scores can be done by placing the >> teams in a location and then giving the numbers of the score in that >> location. For example, I can have one team on the right and another on the >> left. If I sign 4 on the right and then 5 on the left, it clearly says who >> has what score. This is easily done using the lanes in SignWriting. >> >> The issue came into play when it was giving scores for ?my team? vs ?your >> team?. If I signed 4 near my chest and then 5 away from me, it would means ?I >> have 4 and you have 5.? When I tried to write this, I wrote the shoulder line >> over 4 and wrote 5 as I do normally. This didn?t really seem like an issue to >> me until I had a friend asked me how I knew that 5 was signed away from my >> body rather than just in the neutral location when signing 5 on its own. I >> had said I just assumed it, but that got me thinking if there was a simple >> way to write it so that it would be clear and didn?t have to be assumed. Is >> there? >> >> >> Adam >> > > ____________ > > ________________________________________________ > > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages > http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2021-04-15 at 6.32.37 PM.png Type: image/png Size: 47883 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: namesign.png Type: image/png Size: 440 bytes Desc: not available URL: From 000000111c1a7803-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU Fri Apr 16 10:23:53 2021 From: 000000111c1a7803-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU (Cherie Wren) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 10:23:53 +0000 Subject: [Sw-l] [SPAM] Re: Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1573815095.1578270.1618568633502@mail.yahoo.com> when I sign two team scores, its usually one nearly touching my chest (my team) and one farther away... but still in neutral space.? Perhaps a touch symbol for the nearer "my team"? On Thursday, April 15, 2021, 10:39:35 PM EDT, Andr? Thibeault wrote: Hello Adaame and Val, I write this: Best regards, Andr?De?: Adam Frost R?pondre ??: "SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages" Date?: Thu, 15 Apr 2021 18:40:47 -0700 ??: Objet?: Re: Placement of Signs in Space I thought I recall something about the sizing being used for depth, but I don?t think that it would be necessary for everyday writing. Like I said, this situation rarely comes up for me. ;-) Here is a screen capture of what I wrote. It is talking about two baseball teams: The Nationals and the Diamondbacks. Notice the last two signs are supposed to have the depth. I feel that the shoulder line shows the number being closer to the body, but the other number doesn?t have the concept of being away from the body as it is written. As for the concepts of ?teams?, ASL makes use of placing concepts in specific locations all the time. It isn?t limited to names of teams. That is the reason the lanes work so well for this. However, it is common for people to have their preferred teams in sports, so that is where the depth comes into play. Adam On Apr 15, 2021, at 6:17 PM, Valerie Sutton <0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU> wrote: SignWriting ListApril 15, 2021 Hello everyone on the SignWriting List, and thank you for this message, Adam ;-) Of course this sounds like a very useful way to write ?teams? in sign language, but can you show us written examples in SignWriting? And since I am not a teacher of a classroom of ASL signers, maybe you could explain to me (and all of us) - what do you mean by ?teams?? Is it for writing some kind of a game in ASL? But to answer your question - the Lanes show us spatial comparisons and weight-shifting to the ?right of center? and to the ?left of center?. They are invaluable for writing spatial comparisons in sign languages. Technically there is a Lane that is ?far in front? and one that is ?close to the chest? - and one that is neutral in signing space - but over time we started to write those differences in ?depth? with Movement Symbols. We actually DID have a way to write ?depth? with hand symbols years ago, in the 1980s. This was a technique that really worked in the early days of SignWriting, when we were writing sign language by hand with ink pens. There were 3 sizes of hand symbols - the normal size we use everyday is the ?middle neutral space?, the smaller version of the symbol means ?far away from the chest? and the larger symbol means closer to the chest. This is based on art perspectives. Further away is always smaller. I have an article about this somewhere - I will try to find it and post it later. But, as time went by, it seemed like too much information that was not necessary for everyday writing, and for computer symbol sets, it was a real problem because it would double or triple the amount of symbols so the idea of "far being smaller" and ?close being larger? was ignored and we have one set of symbols at one size for everything. The ISWA 2010 is large enough! So how do we see ?depth? in everyday writing? Movement Symbols and some standardized spellings have helped. But now - Adam - please post some SignWriting showing us what you have written - many thanks! Val ;-) ---------- On Apr 15, 2021, at 1:22 PM, Adam Frost wrote: I was doing some writing in SignWriting and came across an issue that I never really thought of in the past. In ASL, scores can be done by placing the teams in a location and then giving the numbers of the score in that location. For example, I can have one team on the right and another on the left. If I sign 4 on the right and then 5 on the left, it clearly says who has what score. This is easily done using the lanes in SignWriting. The issue came into play when it was giving scores for ?my team? vs ?your team?. If I signed 4 near my chest and then 5 away from me, it would means ?I have 4 and you have 5.? When I tried to write this, I wrote the shoulder line over 4 and wrote 5 as I do normally. This didn?t really seem like an issue to me until I had a friend asked me how I knew that 5 was signed away from my body rather than just in the neutral location when signing 5 on its own. I had said I just assumed it, but that got me thinking if there was a simple way to write it so that it would be clear and didn?t have to be assumed. Is there? Adam ____________ ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie SuttonSignWriting List moderatorsutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List:sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Pagehttp://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messageshttp://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie SuttonSignWriting List moderatorsutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List:sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Pagehttp://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messageshttp://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie SuttonSignWriting List moderatorsutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List:sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Pagehttp://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messageshttp://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2021-04-15 at 6.32.37 PM.png Type: image/png Size: 47883 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: namesign.png Type: image/png Size: 440 bytes Desc: not available URL: From icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM Fri Apr 16 14:31:40 2021 From: icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM (Adam Frost) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 07:31:40 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] [SPAM] Re: Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: <1573815095.1578270.1618568633502@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1573815095.1578270.1618568633502@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thank you Cherie and Andr? for your suggestions. Cherie, I agree that ?other? team is still in neutral space, only farther away, while ?my? team is closer to my chest. While I don?t see ?my? team as actually touching my chest, I can see your suggestion for the touch symbol. Do you think that would make more sense than the shoulder line to imply that the sign is at or near the chest? Andr?, your overhead view does make sense as being useful for showing depth, but the palm facing seems to be confusing. As you had it written, it means the palm is facing up rather than facing the chest. Unless I am wrong, the palm facings would would be as the following: If changing the view would make depth easier to see, I think using the side view would be easier for the palm facings. However, I don?t know if I like changing the viewpoint in everyday writing in such rare cases. However, I did notice that Andr? combined the two scores into one sign to show the depth. I think that this would work (without having to change the viewpoint at all) only if both numbers are stated together. I am not sure how I would write the ?other? team?s score to clearly show the depth without the viewpoint change. I do like the idea of having it be ?smaller? to show it is farther away, but I?m not sure if that is practical either. (Just a thought, wouldn?t that just be handled by the font much like superscripts and subscripts? This doesn?t actually ?create? more symbols when this is done. Hmm?) Adam > On Apr 16, 2021, at 3:23 AM, Cherie Wren <000000111c1a7803-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU> wrote: > > when I sign two team scores, its usually one nearly touching my chest (my team) and one farther away... but still in neutral space. Perhaps a touch symbol for the nearer "my team"? > > On Thursday, April 15, 2021, 10:39:35 PM EDT, Andr? Thibeault wrote: > > > Hello Adaame and Val, > > I write this: > > > > Best regards, > > Andr? > De : Adam Frost > > R?pondre ? : "SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages" > > Date : Thu, 15 Apr 2021 18:40:47 -0700 > ? : > > Objet : Re: Placement of Signs in Space > > I thought I recall something about the sizing being used for depth, but I don?t think that it would be necessary for everyday writing. Like I said, this situation rarely comes up for me. ;-) > > Here is a screen capture of what I wrote. It is talking about two baseball teams: The Nationals and the Diamondbacks. > > > > Notice the last two signs are supposed to have the depth. I feel that the shoulder line shows the number being closer to the body, but the other number doesn?t have the concept of being away from the body as it is written. > > As for the concepts of ?teams?, ASL makes use of placing concepts in specific locations all the time. It isn?t limited to names of teams. That is the reason the lanes work so well for this. However, it is common for people to have their preferred teams in sports, so that is where the depth comes into play. > > > Adam > >> On Apr 15, 2021, at 6:17 PM, Valerie Sutton <0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU > wrote: >> >> SignWriting List >> April 15, 2021 >> >> Hello everyone on the SignWriting List, and thank you for this message, Adam ;-) >> >> Of course this sounds like a very useful way to write ?teams? in sign language, but can you show us written examples in SignWriting? >> >> And since I am not a teacher of a classroom of ASL signers, maybe you could explain to me (and all of us) - what do you mean by ?teams?? Is it for writing some kind of a game in ASL? >> >> But to answer your question - the Lanes show us spatial comparisons and weight-shifting to the ?right of center? and to the ?left of center?. They are invaluable for writing spatial comparisons in sign languages. >> >> Technically there is a Lane that is ?far in front? and one that is ?close to the chest? - and one that is neutral in signing space - but over time we started to write those differences in ?depth? with Movement Symbols. We actually DID have a way to write ?depth? with hand symbols years ago, in the 1980s. >> >> This was a technique that really worked in the early days of SignWriting, when we were writing sign language by hand with ink pens. There were 3 sizes of hand symbols - the normal size we use everyday is the ?middle neutral space?, the smaller version of the symbol means ?far away from the chest? and the larger symbol means closer to the chest. This is based on art perspectives. Further away is always smaller. >> >> I have an article about this somewhere - I will try to find it and post it later. >> >> But, as time went by, it seemed like too much information that was not necessary for everyday writing, and for computer symbol sets, it was a real problem because it would double or triple the amount of symbols so the idea of "far being smaller" and ?close being larger? was ignored and we have one set of symbols at one size for everything. The ISWA 2010 is large enough! >> >> So how do we see ?depth? in everyday writing? Movement Symbols and some standardized spellings have helped. >> >> But now - Adam - please post some SignWriting showing us what you have written - many thanks! >> >> Val ;-) >> >> ---------- >> >> >> >>> On Apr 15, 2021, at 1:22 PM, Adam Frost > wrote: >>> >>> I was doing some writing in SignWriting and came across an issue that I never really thought of in the past. In ASL, scores can be done by placing the teams in a location and then giving the numbers of the score in that location. For example, I can have one team on the right and another on the left. If I sign 4 on the right and then 5 on the left, it clearly says who has what score. This is easily done using the lanes in SignWriting. >>> >>> The issue came into play when it was giving scores for ?my team? vs ?your team?. If I signed 4 near my chest and then 5 away from me, it would means ?I have 4 and you have 5.? When I tried to write this, I wrote the shoulder line over 4 and wrote 5 as I do normally. This didn?t really seem like an issue to me until I had a friend asked me how I knew that 5 was signed away from my body rather than just in the neutral location when signing 5 on its own. I had said I just assumed it, but that got me thinking if there was a simple way to write it so that it would be clear and didn?t have to be assumed. Is there? >>> >>> >>> Adam >>> >> >> ____________ >> >> ________________________________________________ >> >> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >> >> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: namesign.png Type: image/png Size: 440 bytes Desc: not available URL: From 00000002a18e4451-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU Fri Apr 16 15:02:59 2021 From: 00000002a18e4451-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU (Jonathan Duncan) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 09:02:59 -0600 Subject: [Sw-l] [SPAM] Re: Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: References: <1573815095.1578270.1618568633502@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Adam, ??? Actually it is presently possible to write smaller hand shapes with the existing fonts. If you go to https://jonathandduncan.github.io/QuickSignEditor/signmaker/#?ui=en And click on QuickSignEditor, You can change the size of the symbols.? It uses the styling portion of the FSW that Steve and I created together. Use minus in the circle button. I'm don't know if any of the other editors can change the symbol size or not. For some reason, the symbol styling isn't coming across to the version of SignMaker I have it hosted in. So the technology is there, it's probably just a matter of adding a few more control to the editors for you to actually be able to do it and save it in SignPuddle. Steve,? what is your take on this subject? Regards, Jonathan On 4/16/2021 8:31 AM, Adam Frost wrote: > Thank you Cherie and Andr? for your suggestions. > > Cherie, I agree that ?other? team is still in neutral space, only > farther away, while ?my? team is closer to my chest. While I don?t see > ?my? team as actually touching my chest, I can see your suggestion for > the touch symbol. Do you think that would make more sense than the > shoulder line to imply that the sign is at or near the chest? > > Andr?, your overhead view does make sense as being useful for showing > depth, but the palm facing seems to be confusing. As you had it > written, it means the palm is facing up rather than facing the chest. > Unless I am wrong, the palm facings would would be as the following: > > > If changing the view would make depth easier to see, I think using the > side view would be easier for the palm facings. > > > However, I don?t know if I like changing the viewpoint in everyday > writing in such rare cases. > > However, I did notice that Andr? combined the two scores into one sign > to show the depth. I think that this would work (without having to > change the viewpoint at all) only if both numbers are stated together. > > > I am not sure how I would write the ?other? team?s score to clearly > show the depth without the viewpoint change. I do like the idea of > having it be ?smaller? to show it is farther away, but I?m not sure if > that is practical either. (Just a thought, wouldn?t that just be > handled by the font much like superscripts and subscripts? This > doesn?t actually ?create? more symbols when this is done. Hmm?) > > > Adam > >> On Apr 16, 2021, at 3:23 AM, Cherie Wren >> <000000111c1a7803-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU >> > >> wrote: >> >> when I sign two team scores, its usually one nearly touching my chest >> (my team) and one farther away... but still in neutral space.? >> Perhaps a touch symbol for the nearer "my team"? >> >> On Thursday, April 15, 2021, 10:39:35 PM EDT, Andr? Thibeault >> > wrote: >> >> >> Hello Adaame and Val, >> >> I write this: >> >> >> Best regards, >> >> Andr? >> De?: Adam Frost > >> R?pondre ??: "SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages" >> > > >> Date?: Thu, 15 Apr 2021 18:40:47 -0700 >> ??: > > >> Objet?: Re: Placement of Signs in Space >> >> I thought I recall something about the sizing being used for depth, >> but I don?t think that it would be necessary for everyday writing. >> Like I said, this situation rarely comes up for me. ;-) >> >> Here is a screen capture of what I wrote. It is talking about two >> baseball teams: The Nationals and the Diamondbacks. >> >> >> >> Notice the last two signs are supposed to have the depth. I feel that >> the shoulder line shows the number being closer to the body, but the >> other number doesn?t have the concept of being away from the body as >> it is written. >> >> As for the concepts of ?teams?, ASL makes use of placing concepts in >> specific locations all the time. It isn?t limited to names of teams. >> That is the reason the lanes work so well for this. However, it is >> common for people to have their preferred teams in sports, so that is >> where the depth comes into play. >> >> >> Adam >> >>> On Apr 15, 2021, at 6:17 PM, Valerie Sutton >>> <0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU >>> > >>> wrote: >>> >>> SignWriting List >>> April 15, 2021 >>> >>> Hello everyone on the SignWriting List, and thank you for this >>> message, Adam ;-) >>> >>> Of course this sounds like a very useful way to write ?teams? in >>> sign language, but can you show us written examples in SignWriting? >>> >>> And since I am not a teacher of a classroom of ASL signers, maybe >>> you could explain to me (and all of us) - what do you mean by >>> ?teams?? Is it for writing some kind of a game in ASL? >>> >>> But to answer your question - the Lanes show us spatial comparisons >>> and weight-shifting to the ?right of center? and to the ?left of >>> center?. They are invaluable for writing spatial comparisons in sign >>> languages. >>> >>> Technically there is a Lane that is ?far in front? and one that is >>> ?close to the chest? - and one that is neutral in signing space - >>> but over time we started to write those differences in ?depth? with >>> Movement Symbols. We actually DID have a way to write ?depth? with >>> hand symbols years ago, in the 1980s. >>> >>> This was a technique that really worked in the early days of >>> SignWriting, when we were writing sign language by hand with ink >>> pens. There were 3 sizes of hand symbols - the normal size we use >>> everyday is the ?middle neutral space?, the smaller version of the >>> symbol means ?far away from the chest? and the larger symbol means >>> closer to the chest. This is based on art perspectives. Further away >>> is always smaller. >>> >>> I have an article about this somewhere - I will try to find it and >>> post it later. >>> >>> But, as time went by, it seemed like too much information that was >>> not necessary for everyday writing, and for computer symbol sets, it >>> was a real problem because it would double or triple the amount of >>> symbols so the idea of "far being smaller" and ?close being larger? >>> was ignored and we have one set of symbols at one size for >>> everything. The ISWA 2010 is large enough! >>> >>> So how do we see ?depth? in everyday writing? Movement Symbols and >>> some standardized spellings have helped. >>> >>> But now - Adam - please post some SignWriting showing us what you >>> have written - many thanks! >>> >>> Val ;-) >>> >>> ---------- >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Apr 15, 2021, at 1:22 PM, Adam Frost >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> I was doing some writing in SignWriting and came across an issue >>>> that I never really thought of in the past. In ASL, scores can be >>>> done by placing the teams in a location and then giving the numbers >>>> of the score in that location. For example, I can have one team on >>>> the right and another on the left. If I sign 4 on the right and >>>> then 5 on the left, it clearly says who has what score. This is >>>> easily done using the lanes in SignWriting. >>>> >>>> The issue came into play when it was giving scores for ?my team? vs >>>> ?your team?. If I signed 4 near my chest and then 5 away from me, >>>> it would means ?I have 4 and you have 5.? When I tried to write >>>> this, I wrote the shoulder line over 4 and wrote 5 as I do >>>> normally. This didn?t really seem like an issue to me until I had a >>>> friend asked me how I knew that 5 was signed away from my body >>>> rather than just in the neutral location when signing 5 on its own. >>>> I had said I just assumed it, but that got me thinking if there was >>>> a simple way to write it so that it would be clear and didn?t have >>>> to be assumed. Is there? >>>> >>>> >>>> Adam >>>> >>> >>> ____________ >>> >>> ________________________________________________ >>> >>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>> >>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>> >>> >>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: >>> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>> >>> >>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page >>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>> >>> >>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages >>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >>> >>> >> >> ________________________________________________ >> >> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >> >> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >> >> >> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: >> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >> >> >> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page >> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >> >> >> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages >> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >> >> >> ________________________________________________ >> >> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >> >> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >> >> >> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: >> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >> >> >> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page >> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >> >> >> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages >> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >> >> >> ________________________________________________ >> >> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >> >> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >> >> >> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: >> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >> >> >> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page >> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >> >> >> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages >> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >> > Shot 2021-04-15 at 6.32.37 PM.png> >> > > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > > > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: > sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > > > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page > http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > > > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages > http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > > ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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See links below: New postings in Nicaraguan Sign Language on the SignWriting Site https://www.signwriting.org/#RecentPostingsNicaragua ANANSI Y SUS SEIS HIJOS IN NICARAGUAN SIGN LANGUAGE YouTube Video: https://youtu.be/lACP0qnJjnw Download PowerPoint with Video (Large File): https://www.signwriting.org/archive/slides1/swslides085_Anansi_y_sus_seis_hijos_Kegl_04152021.pptx Download PDF without video: https://www.signwriting.org/archive/docs13/sw1293_NI_Anansi_y_sus_seis_hijos_Kegl_04142021.pdf Thanks again and enjoy this wonderful children?s story! Val ;-) Valerie Sutton sutton at signwriting.org ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From slevin at SIGNPUDDLE.NET Fri Apr 16 16:50:48 2021 From: slevin at SIGNPUDDLE.NET (Stephen Slevinski) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 11:50:48 -0500 Subject: [Sw-l] [SPAM] Re: Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: References: <1573815095.1578270.1618568633502@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41db7358-4d87-3e8a-cfb7-09022e418559@signpuddle.net> Hi Jonathan, SignMaker 2017 supports the styling string, but it is a manual entry process and only for creating PNG or SVG output images. http://signbank.org/signmaker/#?ui=en This example uses a styling string of "--Z01,0.5Z03,2" Z01,0.5 = Zoom for first symbol of 0.5. Z03,2 = Zoom for third symbol of 2 This topic gets into the difference between plain-text and rich-text. Oversimplified, plain-text focuses on meaning while rich-text adds formatting. If you take away formatting from rich-text, you should be left with understandable plain-text. I believe a sign should be understandable without differences in symbol size. -Steve On 4/16/21 10:02 AM, Jonathan Duncan wrote: > > Hi Adam, > > ??? Actually it is presently possible to write smaller hand shapes > with the existing fonts. > > If you go to > > https://jonathandduncan.github.io/QuickSignEditor/signmaker/#?ui=en > > And click on QuickSignEditor, > > You can change the size of the symbols.? It uses the styling portion > of the FSW that Steve and I created together. > > Use minus in the circle button. > > I'm don't know if any of the other editors can change the symbol size > or not. > > For some reason, the symbol styling isn't coming across to the version > of SignMaker I have it hosted in. > > So the technology is there, it's probably just a matter of adding a > few more control to the editors for you to actually be able to do it > and save it in SignPuddle. > > Steve,? what is your take on this subject? > > Regards, > > Jonathan > > > On 4/16/2021 8:31 AM, Adam Frost wrote: >> Thank you Cherie and Andr? for your suggestions. >> >> Cherie, I agree that ?other? team is still in neutral space, only >> farther away, while ?my? team is closer to my chest. While I don?t >> see ?my? team as actually touching my chest, I can see your >> suggestion for the touch symbol. Do you think that would make more >> sense than the shoulder line to imply that the sign is at or near the >> chest? >> >> Andr?, your overhead view does make sense as being useful for showing >> depth, but the palm facing seems to be confusing. As you had it >> written, it means the palm is facing up rather than facing the chest. >> Unless I am wrong, the palm facings would would be as the following: >> >> >> If changing the view would make depth easier to see, I think using >> the side view would be easier for the palm facings. >> >> >> However, I don?t know if I like changing the viewpoint in everyday >> writing in such rare cases. >> >> However, I did notice that Andr? combined the two scores into one >> sign to show the depth. I think that this would work (without having >> to change the viewpoint at all) only if both numbers are stated together. >> >> >> I am not sure how I would write the ?other? team?s score to clearly >> show the depth without the viewpoint change. I do like the idea of >> having it be ?smaller? to show it is farther away, but I?m not sure >> if that is practical either. (Just a thought, wouldn?t that just be >> handled by the font much like superscripts and subscripts? This >> doesn?t actually ?create? more symbols when this is done. Hmm?) >> >> >> Adam >> >>> On Apr 16, 2021, at 3:23 AM, Cherie Wren >>> <000000111c1a7803-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU >>> > >>> wrote: >>> >>> when I sign two team scores, its usually one nearly touching my >>> chest (my team) and one farther away... but still in neutral space.? >>> Perhaps a touch symbol for the nearer "my team"? >>> >>> On Thursday, April 15, 2021, 10:39:35 PM EDT, Andr? Thibeault >>> > wrote: >>> >>> >>> Hello Adaame and Val, >>> >>> I write this: >>> >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Andr? >>> De?: Adam Frost > >>> R?pondre ??: "SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages" >>> >> > >>> Date?: Thu, 15 Apr 2021 18:40:47 -0700 >>> ??: >> > >>> Objet?: Re: Placement of Signs in Space >>> >>> I thought I recall something about the sizing being used for depth, >>> but I don?t think that it would be necessary for everyday writing. >>> Like I said, this situation rarely comes up for me. ;-) >>> >>> Here is a screen capture of what I wrote. It is talking about two >>> baseball teams: The Nationals and the Diamondbacks. >>> >>> >>> >>> Notice the last two signs are supposed to have the depth. I feel >>> that the shoulder line shows the number being closer to the body, >>> but the other number doesn?t have the concept of being away from the >>> body as it is written. >>> >>> As for the concepts of ?teams?, ASL makes use of placing concepts in >>> specific locations all the time. It isn?t limited to names of teams. >>> That is the reason the lanes work so well for this. However, it is >>> common for people to have their preferred teams in sports, so that >>> is where the depth comes into play. >>> >>> >>> Adam >>> >>>> On Apr 15, 2021, at 6:17 PM, Valerie Sutton >>>> <0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU >>>> > >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> SignWriting List >>>> April 15, 2021 >>>> >>>> Hello everyone on the SignWriting List, and thank you for this >>>> message, Adam ;-) >>>> >>>> Of course this sounds like a very useful way to write ?teams? in >>>> sign language, but can you show us written examples in SignWriting? >>>> >>>> And since I am not a teacher of a classroom of ASL signers, maybe >>>> you could explain to me (and all of us) - what do you mean by >>>> ?teams?? Is it for writing some kind of a game in ASL? >>>> >>>> But to answer your question - the Lanes show us spatial comparisons >>>> and weight-shifting to the ?right of center? and to the ?left of >>>> center?. They are invaluable for writing spatial comparisons in >>>> sign languages. >>>> >>>> Technically there is a Lane that is ?far in front? and one that is >>>> ?close to the chest? - and one that is neutral in signing space - >>>> but over time we started to write those differences in ?depth? with >>>> Movement Symbols. We actually DID have a way to write ?depth? with >>>> hand symbols years ago, in the 1980s. >>>> >>>> This was a technique that really worked in the early days of >>>> SignWriting, when we were writing sign language by hand with ink >>>> pens. There were 3 sizes of hand symbols - the normal size we use >>>> everyday is the ?middle neutral space?, the smaller version of the >>>> symbol means ?far away from the chest? and the larger symbol means >>>> closer to the chest. This is based on art perspectives. Further >>>> away is always smaller. >>>> >>>> I have an article about this somewhere - I will try to find it and >>>> post it later. >>>> >>>> But, as time went by, it seemed like too much information that was >>>> not necessary for everyday writing, and for computer symbol sets, >>>> it was a real problem because it would double or triple the amount >>>> of symbols so the idea of "far being smaller" and ?close being >>>> larger? was ignored and we have one set of symbols at one size for >>>> everything. The ISWA 2010 is large enough! >>>> >>>> So how do we see ?depth? in everyday writing? Movement Symbols and >>>> some standardized spellings have helped. >>>> >>>> But now - Adam - please post some SignWriting showing us what you >>>> have written - many thanks! >>>> >>>> Val ;-) >>>> >>>> ---------- >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Apr 15, 2021, at 1:22 PM, Adam Frost >>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I was doing some writing in SignWriting and came across an issue >>>>> that I never really thought of in the past. In ASL, scores can be >>>>> done by placing the teams in a location and then giving the >>>>> numbers of the score in that location. For example, I can have one >>>>> team on the right and another on the left. If I sign 4 on the >>>>> right and then 5 on the left, it clearly says who has what score. >>>>> This is easily done using the lanes in SignWriting. >>>>> >>>>> The issue came into play when it was giving scores for ?my team? >>>>> vs ?your team?. If I signed 4 near my chest and then 5 away from >>>>> me, it would means ?I have 4 and you have 5.? When I tried to >>>>> write this, I wrote the shoulder line over 4 and wrote 5 as I do >>>>> normally. This didn?t really seem like an issue to me until I had >>>>> a friend asked me how I knew that 5 was signed away from my body >>>>> rather than just in the neutral location when signing 5 on its >>>>> own. I had said I just assumed it, but that got me thinking if >>>>> there was a simple way to write it so that it would be clear and >>>>> didn?t have to be assumed. Is there? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Adam >>>>> >>>> >>>> ____________ >>>> >>>> ________________________________________________ >>>> >>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>>> >>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: >>>> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>>> >>>> >>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page >>>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>>> >>>> >>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages >>>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >>>> >>>> >>> >>> ________________________________________________ >>> >>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>> >>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>> >>> >>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: >>> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>> >>> >>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page >>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>> >>> >>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages >>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >>> >>> >>> ________________________________________________ >>> >>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>> >>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>> >>> >>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: >>> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>> >>> >>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page >>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>> >>> >>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages >>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >>> >>> >>> ________________________________________________ >>> >>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>> >>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>> >>> >>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: >>> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>> >>> >>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page >>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>> >>> >>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages >>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >>> >> Shot 2021-04-15 at 6.32.37 PM.png> >>> >> >> ________________________________________________ >> >> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >> >> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >> >> >> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: >> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >> >> >> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page >> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >> >> >> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages >> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >> >> > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > > > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: > sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > > > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page > http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > > > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages > http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > > ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: Screen Shot 2021-04-16 at 7.22.39 AM.png Type: image/png Size: 11101 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2021-04-16 at 7.25.31 AM.png Type: image/png Size: 6692 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: namesign.png Type: image/png Size: 440 bytes Desc: not available URL: From atg at VIDEOTRON.CA Fri Apr 16 17:31:17 2021 From: atg at VIDEOTRON.CA (=?ISO-8859-1?B?QW5kcuk=?= Thibeault) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 13:31:17 -0400 Subject: [Sw-l] [SPAM] Re: Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello Val, I notice that I did not get many emails from SignWriting list. I do not understand why I do not receive them? Best regards, Andr? De : Stephen Slevinski R?pondre ? : "SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages" Date : Fri, 16 Apr 2021 11:50:48 -0500 ? : Objet : Re: [SPAM] Re: Placement of Signs in Space Hi Jonathan, SignMaker 2017 supports the styling string, but it is a manual entry process and only for creating PNG or SVG output images. http://signbank.org/signmaker/#?ui=en This example uses a styling string of "--Z01,0.5Z03,2" Z01,0.5 = Zoom for first symbol of 0.5. Z03,2 = Zoom for third symbol of 2 This topic gets into the difference between plain-text and rich-text. Oversimplified, plain-text focuses on meaning while rich-text adds formatting. If you take away formatting from rich-text, you should be left with understandable plain-text. I believe a sign should be understandable without differences in symbol size. -Steve On 4/16/21 10:02 AM, Jonathan Duncan wrote: > > > Hi Adam, > > > Actually it is presently possible to write smaller hand shapes with the > existing fonts. > > > If you go to > > > > https://jonathandduncan.github.io/QuickSignEditor/signmaker/#?ui=en > > > And click on QuickSignEditor, > > > > > > You can change the size of the symbols. It uses the styling portion of the > FSW that Steve and I created together. > > > > > Use minus in the circle button. > > > > > I'm don't know if any of the other editors can change the symbol size or not. > > > For some reason, the symbol styling isn't coming across to the version of > SignMaker I have it hosted in. > > > So the technology is there, it's probably just a matter of adding a few more > control to the editors for you to actually be able to do it and save it in > SignPuddle. > > > Steve, what is your take on this subject? > > > Regards, > > > Jonathan > > > > > > > On 4/16/2021 8:31 AM, Adam Frost wrote: > > >> Thank you Cherie and Andr? for your suggestions. >> >> >> >> Cherie, I agree that ?other? team is still in neutral space, only farther >> away, while ?my? team is closer to my chest. While I don?t see ?my? team as >> actually touching my chest, I can see your suggestion for the touch symbol. >> Do you think that would make more sense than the shoulder line to imply that >> the sign is at or near the chest? >> >> >> >> >> Andr?, your overhead view does make sense as being useful for showing depth, >> but the palm facing seems to be confusing. As you had it written, it means >> the palm is facing up rather than facing the chest. Unless I am wrong, the >> palm facings would would be as the following: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> If changing the view would make depth easier to see, I think using the side >> view would be easier for the palm facings. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> However, I don?t know if I like changing the viewpoint in everyday writing in >> such rare cases. >> >> >> >> >> However, I did notice that Andr? combined the two scores into one sign to >> show the depth. I think that this would work (without having to change the >> viewpoint at all) only if both numbers are stated together. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I am not sure how I would write the ?other? team?s score to clearly show the >> depth without the viewpoint change. I do like the idea of having it be >> ?smaller? to show it is farther away, but I?m not sure if that is practical >> either. (Just a thought, wouldn?t that just be handled by the font much like >> superscripts and subscripts? This doesn?t actually ?create? more symbols when >> this is done. Hmm?) >> >> >> >> >> Adam >> >> >> >>> >>> On Apr 16, 2021, at 3:23 AM, Cherie Wren >>> <000000111c1a7803-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> when I sign two team scores, its usually one nearly touching my chest (my >>> team) and one farther away... but still in neutral space. Perhaps a touch >>> symbol for the nearer "my team"? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thursday, April 15, 2021, 10:39:35 PM EDT, Andr? Thibeault >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Hello Adaame and Val, >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I write this: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Andr? >>> >>> De : Adam Frost >>> R?pondre ? : "SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages" >>> >>> Date : Thu, 15 Apr 2021 18:40:47 -0700 >>> ? : >>> Objet : Re: Placement of Signs in Space >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I thought I recall something about the sizing being used for depth, but I >>> don?t think that it would be necessary for everyday writing. Like I said, >>> this situation rarely comes up for me. ;-) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Here is a screen capture of what I wrote. It is talking about two baseball >>> teams: The Nationals and the Diamondbacks. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Notice the last two signs are supposed to have the depth. I feel that the >>> shoulder line shows the number being closer to the body, but the other >>> number doesn?t have the concept of being away from the body as it is >>> written. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> As for the concepts of ?teams?, ASL makes use of placing concepts in >>> specific locations all the time. It isn?t limited to names of teams. That is >>> the reason the lanes work so well for this. However, it is common for people >>> to have their preferred teams in sports, so that is where the depth comes >>> into play. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Adam >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> On Apr 15, 2021, at 6:17 PM, Valerie Sutton >>>> <0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> SignWriting List >>>> April 15, 2021 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hello everyone on the SignWriting List, and thank you for this message, >>>> Adam ;-) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Of course this sounds like a very useful way to write ?teams? in sign >>>> language, but can you show us written examples in SignWriting? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> And since I am not a teacher of a classroom of ASL signers, maybe you could >>>> explain to me (and all of us) - what do you mean by ?teams?? Is it for >>>> writing some kind of a game in ASL? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> But to answer your question - the Lanes show us spatial comparisons and >>>> weight-shifting to the ?right of center? and to the ?left of center?. They >>>> are invaluable for writing spatial comparisons in sign languages. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Technically there is a Lane that is ?far in front? and one that is ?close >>>> to the chest? - and one that is neutral in signing space - but over time we >>>> started to write those differences in ?depth? with Movement Symbols. We >>>> actually DID have a way to write ?depth? with hand symbols years ago, in >>>> the 1980s. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> This was a technique that really worked in the early days of SignWriting, >>>> when we were writing sign language by hand with ink pens. There were 3 >>>> sizes of hand symbols - the normal size we use everyday is the ?middle >>>> neutral space?, the smaller version of the symbol means ?far away from the >>>> chest? and the larger symbol means closer to the chest. This is based on >>>> art perspectives. Further away is always smaller. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I have an article about this somewhere - I will try to find it and post it >>>> later. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> But, as time went by, it seemed like too much information that was not >>>> necessary for everyday writing, and for computer symbol sets, it was a real >>>> problem because it would double or triple the amount of symbols so the idea >>>> of "far being smaller" and ?close being larger? was ignored and we have one >>>> set of symbols at one size for everything. The ISWA 2010 is large enough! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> So how do we see ?depth? in everyday writing? Movement Symbols and some >>>> standardized spellings have helped. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> But now - Adam - please post some SignWriting showing us what you have >>>> written - many thanks! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Val ;-) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ---------- >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Apr 15, 2021, at 1:22 PM, Adam Frost wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I was doing some writing in SignWriting and came across an issue that I >>>>> never really thought of in the past. In ASL, scores can be done by placing >>>>> the teams in a location and then giving the numbers of the score in that >>>>> location. For example, I can have one team on the right and another on the >>>>> left. If I sign 4 on the right and then 5 on the left, it clearly says who >>>>> has what score. This is easily done using the lanes in SignWriting. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The issue came into play when it was giving scores for ?my team? vs ?your >>>>> team?. If I signed 4 near my chest and then 5 away from me, it would means >>>>> ?I have 4 and you have 5.? When I tried to write this, I wrote the >>>>> shoulder line over 4 and wrote 5 as I do normally. This didn?t really seem >>>>> like an issue to me until I had a friend asked me how I knew that 5 was >>>>> signed away from my body rather than just in the neutral location when >>>>> signing 5 on its own. I had said I just assumed it, but that got me >>>>> thinking if there was a simple way to write it so that it would be clear >>>>> and didn?t have to be assumed. Is there? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Adam >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ____________ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ________________________________________________ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>>> >>>> >>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>>> >>>> >>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page >>>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>>> >>>> >>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages >>>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________________________ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>> >>> >>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>> >>> >>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>> >>> >>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page >>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>> >>> >>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages >>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >>> >>> ________________________________________________ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>> >>> >>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>> >>> >>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>> >>> >>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page >>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>> >>> >>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages >>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________________________ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>> >>> >>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>> >>> >>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>> >>> >>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page >>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>> >>> >>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages >>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1>> 2021-04-15 at 6.32.37 PM.png> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> ________________________________________________ >> >> >> >> >> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >> >> >> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >> >> >> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >> >> >> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page >> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >> >> >> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages >> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >> > ________________________________________________ > > > > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > > > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > > > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page > http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > > > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages > http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: baglbilanghogejj.png Type: image/png Size: 5093 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: gjpoiddbedboknkh.png Type: image/png Size: 1375 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: pekkdjpadhklhcfe.png Type: image/png Size: 54904 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: babilhopiflhdnaa.png Type: image/png Size: 9368 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2021-04-16 at 7.20.40 AM.png Type: image/png Size: 10281 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2021-04-16 at 7.22.39 AM.png Type: image/png Size: 11101 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2021-04-16 at 7.25.31 AM.png Type: image/png Size: 6692 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: namesign.png Type: image/png Size: 440 bytes Desc: not available URL: From 0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU Fri Apr 16 17:57:53 2021 From: 0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU (Valerie Sutton) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 10:57:53 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: SignWriting List April 16, 2021 Hello Andre and Adam - Thanks to you both for posting examples in SignWriting. Andre - it has been a long time since we have communicated. I appreciate your suggestion writing with the Top View of the Head - that certainly shows ?depth? well. And Adam - your writing with Lanes also works for me - both writings seem readable. But I would not have thought of the Shoulder Line to mean that the hand was necessarily closer to my chest or not, unless there was a contact symbol with the chest. I suppose an added Surface Symbol might give some information, but does the depth really matter? If this is a research project where you really have to be accurate and it does matter, then using the Top View of the Head would be the answer, but I suspect the way you wrote it in Lanes is giving a Spatial Comparison enough that it is readable in Lanes? I loved the smaller and larger hands to show ?depth? and I see that there are some solutions by some of the messages posted to the List - I am reading each email one by one - maybe software can do it after all! Those are my thoughts anyway - So great that you wrote to the List about this, Adam - Nice to have the List active again - Val ;-) ---------- > On Apr 15, 2021, at 7:39 PM, Andr? Thibeault wrote: > > Hello Adaame and Val, > > I write this: > > > > Best regards, > > Andr? > De : Adam Frost > > R?pondre ? : "SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages" > > Date : Thu, 15 Apr 2021 18:40:47 -0700 > ? : > > Objet : Re: Placement of Signs in Space > > I thought I recall something about the sizing being used for depth, but I don?t think that it would be necessary for everyday writing. Like I said, this situation rarely comes up for me. ;-) > > Here is a screen capture of what I wrote. It is talking about two baseball teams: The Nationals and the Diamondbacks. > > > > Notice the last two signs are supposed to have the depth. I feel that the shoulder line shows the number being closer to the body, but the other number doesn?t have the concept of being away from the body as it is written. > > As for the concepts of ?teams?, ASL makes use of placing concepts in specific locations all the time. It isn?t limited to names of teams. That is the reason the lanes work so well for this. However, it is common for people to have their preferred teams in sports, so that is where the depth comes into play. > > > Adam > >> On Apr 15, 2021, at 6:17 PM, Valerie Sutton <0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU > wrote: >> >> SignWriting List >> April 15, 2021 >> >> Hello everyone on the SignWriting List, and thank you for this message, Adam ;-) >> >> Of course this sounds like a very useful way to write ?teams? in sign language, but can you show us written examples in SignWriting? >> >> And since I am not a teacher of a classroom of ASL signers, maybe you could explain to me (and all of us) - what do you mean by ?teams?? Is it for writing some kind of a game in ASL? >> >> But to answer your question - the Lanes show us spatial comparisons and weight-shifting to the ?right of center? and to the ?left of center?. They are invaluable for writing spatial comparisons in sign languages. >> >> Technically there is a Lane that is ?far in front? and one that is ?close to the chest? - and one that is neutral in signing space - but over time we started to write those differences in ?depth? with Movement Symbols. We actually DID have a way to write ?depth? with hand symbols years ago, in the 1980s. >> >> This was a technique that really worked in the early days of SignWriting, when we were writing sign language by hand with ink pens. There were 3 sizes of hand symbols - the normal size we use everyday is the ?middle neutral space?, the smaller version of the symbol means ?far away from the chest? and the larger symbol means closer to the chest. This is based on art perspectives. Further away is always smaller. >> >> I have an article about this somewhere - I will try to find it and post it later. >> >> But, as time went by, it seemed like too much information that was not necessary for everyday writing, and for computer symbol sets, it was a real problem because it would double or triple the amount of symbols so the idea of "far being smaller" and ?close being larger? was ignored and we have one set of symbols at one size for everything. The ISWA 2010 is large enough! >> >> So how do we see ?depth? in everyday writing? Movement Symbols and some standardized spellings have helped. >> >> But now - Adam - please post some SignWriting showing us what you have written - many thanks! >> >> Val ;-) >> >> ---------- >> >> >> >>> On Apr 15, 2021, at 1:22 PM, Adam Frost > wrote: >>> >>> I was doing some writing in SignWriting and came across an issue that I never really thought of in the past. In ASL, scores can be done by placing the teams in a location and then giving the numbers of the score in that location. For example, I can have one team on the right and another on the left. If I sign 4 on the right and then 5 on the left, it clearly says who has what score. This is easily done using the lanes in SignWriting. >>> >>> The issue came into play when it was giving scores for ?my team? vs ?your team?. If I signed 4 near my chest and then 5 away from me, it would means ?I have 4 and you have 5.? When I tried to write this, I wrote the shoulder line over 4 and wrote 5 as I do normally. This didn?t really seem like an issue to me until I had a friend asked me how I knew that 5 was signed away from my body rather than just in the neutral location when signing 5 on its own. I had said I just assumed it, but that got me thinking if there was a simple way to write it so that it would be clear and didn?t have to be assumed. Is there? >>> >>> >>> Adam >>> >> >> ____________ >> >> ________________________________________________ >> >> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2021-04-15 at 6.32.37 PM.png Type: image/png Size: 47883 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: namesign.png Type: image/png Size: 440 bytes Desc: not available URL: From atg at VIDEOTRON.CA Fri Apr 16 18:12:19 2021 From: atg at VIDEOTRON.CA (=?ISO-8859-1?B?QW5kcuk=?= Thibeault) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 14:12:19 -0400 Subject: [Sw-l] [SPAM] Re: Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello Adam, I did not get your email from SwignWriting list. But, I only got one email from Steve. I write this. I believe that the palm is facing the chest. But you believe that the palm is facing up. I learn about it. I believe that the palm is facing up below. I think that many signwritters believe that the palm is facing up above. I hope that I will get other emails from SignWring list. Best regards, Andr? De : Stephen Slevinski R?pondre ? : "SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages" Date : Fri, 16 Apr 2021 11:50:48 -0500 ? : Objet : Re: [SPAM] Re: Placement of Signs in Space Hi Jonathan, SignMaker 2017 supports the styling string, but it is a manual entry process and only for creating PNG or SVG output images. http://signbank.org/signmaker/#?ui=en This example uses a styling string of "--Z01,0.5Z03,2" Z01,0.5 = Zoom for first symbol of 0.5. Z03,2 = Zoom for third symbol of 2 This topic gets into the difference between plain-text and rich-text. Oversimplified, plain-text focuses on meaning while rich-text adds formatting. If you take away formatting from rich-text, you should be left with understandable plain-text. I believe a sign should be understandable without differences in symbol size. -Steve On 4/16/21 10:02 AM, Jonathan Duncan wrote: > > > Hi Adam, > > > Actually it is presently possible to write smaller hand shapes with the > existing fonts. > > > If you go to > > > > https://jonathandduncan.github.io/QuickSignEditor/signmaker/#?ui=en > > > And click on QuickSignEditor, > > > > > > You can change the size of the symbols. It uses the styling portion of the > FSW that Steve and I created together. > > > > > Use minus in the circle button. > > > > > I'm don't know if any of the other editors can change the symbol size or not. > > > For some reason, the symbol styling isn't coming across to the version of > SignMaker I have it hosted in. > > > So the technology is there, it's probably just a matter of adding a few more > control to the editors for you to actually be able to do it and save it in > SignPuddle. > > > Steve, what is your take on this subject? > > > Regards, > > > Jonathan > > > > > > > On 4/16/2021 8:31 AM, Adam Frost wrote: > > >> Thank you Cherie and Andr? for your suggestions. >> >> >> >> Cherie, I agree that ?other? team is still in neutral space, only farther >> away, while ?my? team is closer to my chest. While I don?t see ?my? team as >> actually touching my chest, I can see your suggestion for the touch symbol. >> Do you think that would make more sense than the shoulder line to imply that >> the sign is at or near the chest? >> >> >> >> >> Andr?, your overhead view does make sense as being useful for showing depth, >> but the palm facing seems to be confusing. As you had it written, it means >> the palm is facing up rather than facing the chest. Unless I am wrong, the >> palm facings would would be as the following: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> If changing the view would make depth easier to see, I think using the side >> view would be easier for the palm facings. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> However, I don?t know if I like changing the viewpoint in everyday writing in >> such rare cases. >> >> >> >> >> However, I did notice that Andr? combined the two scores into one sign to >> show the depth. I think that this would work (without having to change the >> viewpoint at all) only if both numbers are stated together. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I am not sure how I would write the ?other? team?s score to clearly show the >> depth without the viewpoint change. I do like the idea of having it be >> ?smaller? to show it is farther away, but I?m not sure if that is practical >> either. (Just a thought, wouldn?t that just be handled by the font much like >> superscripts and subscripts? This doesn?t actually ?create? more symbols when >> this is done. Hmm?) >> >> >> >> >> Adam >> >> >> >>> >>> On Apr 16, 2021, at 3:23 AM, Cherie Wren >>> <000000111c1a7803-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> when I sign two team scores, its usually one nearly touching my chest (my >>> team) and one farther away... but still in neutral space. Perhaps a touch >>> symbol for the nearer "my team"? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thursday, April 15, 2021, 10:39:35 PM EDT, Andr? Thibeault >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Hello Adaame and Val, >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I write this: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Andr? >>> >>> De : Adam Frost >>> R?pondre ? : "SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages" >>> >>> Date : Thu, 15 Apr 2021 18:40:47 -0700 >>> ? : >>> Objet : Re: Placement of Signs in Space >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I thought I recall something about the sizing being used for depth, but I >>> don?t think that it would be necessary for everyday writing. Like I said, >>> this situation rarely comes up for me. ;-) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Here is a screen capture of what I wrote. It is talking about two baseball >>> teams: The Nationals and the Diamondbacks. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Notice the last two signs are supposed to have the depth. I feel that the >>> shoulder line shows the number being closer to the body, but the other >>> number doesn?t have the concept of being away from the body as it is >>> written. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> As for the concepts of ?teams?, ASL makes use of placing concepts in >>> specific locations all the time. It isn?t limited to names of teams. That is >>> the reason the lanes work so well for this. However, it is common for people >>> to have their preferred teams in sports, so that is where the depth comes >>> into play. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Adam >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> On Apr 15, 2021, at 6:17 PM, Valerie Sutton >>>> <0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> SignWriting List >>>> April 15, 2021 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hello everyone on the SignWriting List, and thank you for this message, >>>> Adam ;-) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Of course this sounds like a very useful way to write ?teams? in sign >>>> language, but can you show us written examples in SignWriting? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> And since I am not a teacher of a classroom of ASL signers, maybe you could >>>> explain to me (and all of us) - what do you mean by ?teams?? Is it for >>>> writing some kind of a game in ASL? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> But to answer your question - the Lanes show us spatial comparisons and >>>> weight-shifting to the ?right of center? and to the ?left of center?. They >>>> are invaluable for writing spatial comparisons in sign languages. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Technically there is a Lane that is ?far in front? and one that is ?close >>>> to the chest? - and one that is neutral in signing space - but over time we >>>> started to write those differences in ?depth? with Movement Symbols. We >>>> actually DID have a way to write ?depth? with hand symbols years ago, in >>>> the 1980s. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> This was a technique that really worked in the early days of SignWriting, >>>> when we were writing sign language by hand with ink pens. There were 3 >>>> sizes of hand symbols - the normal size we use everyday is the ?middle >>>> neutral space?, the smaller version of the symbol means ?far away from the >>>> chest? and the larger symbol means closer to the chest. This is based on >>>> art perspectives. Further away is always smaller. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I have an article about this somewhere - I will try to find it and post it >>>> later. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> But, as time went by, it seemed like too much information that was not >>>> necessary for everyday writing, and for computer symbol sets, it was a real >>>> problem because it would double or triple the amount of symbols so the idea >>>> of "far being smaller" and ?close being larger? was ignored and we have one >>>> set of symbols at one size for everything. The ISWA 2010 is large enough! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> So how do we see ?depth? in everyday writing? Movement Symbols and some >>>> standardized spellings have helped. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> But now - Adam - please post some SignWriting showing us what you have >>>> written - many thanks! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Val ;-) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ---------- >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Apr 15, 2021, at 1:22 PM, Adam Frost wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I was doing some writing in SignWriting and came across an issue that I >>>>> never really thought of in the past. In ASL, scores can be done by placing >>>>> the teams in a location and then giving the numbers of the score in that >>>>> location. For example, I can have one team on the right and another on the >>>>> left. If I sign 4 on the right and then 5 on the left, it clearly says who >>>>> has what score. This is easily done using the lanes in SignWriting. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The issue came into play when it was giving scores for ?my team? vs ?your >>>>> team?. If I signed 4 near my chest and then 5 away from me, it would means >>>>> ?I have 4 and you have 5.? When I tried to write this, I wrote the >>>>> shoulder line over 4 and wrote 5 as I do normally. This didn?t really seem >>>>> like an issue to me until I had a friend asked me how I knew that 5 was >>>>> signed away from my body rather than just in the neutral location when >>>>> signing 5 on its own. I had said I just assumed it, but that got me >>>>> thinking if there was a simple way to write it so that it would be clear >>>>> and didn?t have to be assumed. Is there? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Adam >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ____________ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ________________________________________________ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>>> >>>> >>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>>> >>>> >>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page >>>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>>> >>>> >>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages >>>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________________________ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>> >>> >>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>> >>> >>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>> >>> >>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page >>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>> >>> >>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages >>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >>> >>> ________________________________________________ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>> >>> >>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>> >>> >>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>> >>> >>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page >>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>> >>> >>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages >>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________________________ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>> >>> >>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>> >>> >>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>> >>> >>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page >>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>> >>> >>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages >>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1>> 2021-04-15 at 6.32.37 PM.png> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> ________________________________________________ >> >> >> >> >> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >> >> >> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >> >> >> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >> >> >> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page >> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >> >> >> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages >> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >> > ________________________________________________ > > > > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > > > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > > > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page > http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > > > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages > http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: baglbilanghogejj.png Type: image/png Size: 5093 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: gjpoiddbedboknkh.png Type: image/png Size: 1375 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: pekkdjpadhklhcfe.png Type: image/png Size: 54904 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: babilhopiflhdnaa.png Type: image/png Size: 9368 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2021-04-16 at 7.20.40 AM.png Type: image/png Size: 10281 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2021-04-16 at 7.22.39 AM.png Type: image/png Size: 11101 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2021-04-16 at 7.25.31 AM.png Type: image/png Size: 6692 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: namesign.png Type: image/png Size: 440 bytes Desc: not available URL: From icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM Fri Apr 16 18:14:47 2021 From: icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM (Adam Frost) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 11:14:47 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2FC8FC1F-461B-4ED2-B726-8A332F4BD08A@gmail.com> The lanes work great in most cases since the spatial comparison is usually on the sides. However, I have ran into an issue when the spatial comparison uses depth to imply me and you. This isn?t usage of depth isn?t used often, but it is necessary at times to convey the correct meaning. So I guess the top view is the way to go when depth must be shown. Does that mean that the palm facing should change accordingly to keep with the view change? If so, how would what I used in my example be written? Adam > On Apr 16, 2021, at 10:57 AM, Valerie Sutton <0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU> wrote: > > SignWriting List > April 16, 2021 > > Hello Andre and Adam - > > Thanks to you both for posting examples in SignWriting. > > Andre - it has been a long time since we have communicated. I appreciate your suggestion writing with the Top View of the Head - that certainly shows ?depth? well. > > And Adam - your writing with Lanes also works for me - both writings seem readable. But I would not have thought of the Shoulder Line to mean that the hand was necessarily closer to my chest or not, unless there was a contact symbol with the chest. I suppose an added Surface Symbol might give some information, but does the depth really matter? If this is a research project where you really have to be accurate and it does matter, then using the Top View of the Head would be the answer, but I suspect the way you wrote it in Lanes is giving a Spatial Comparison enough that it is readable in Lanes? > > I loved the smaller and larger hands to show ?depth? and I see that there are some solutions by some of the messages posted to the List - I am reading each email one by one - maybe software can do it after all! > > Those are my thoughts anyway - So great that you wrote to the List about this, Adam - > > Nice to have the List active again - > > Val ;-) > > > ---------- > > > >> On Apr 15, 2021, at 7:39 PM, Andr? Thibeault > wrote: >> >> Hello Adaame and Val, >> >> I write this: >> >> >> >> Best regards, >> >> Andr? >> De : Adam Frost > >> R?pondre ? : "SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages" > >> Date : Thu, 15 Apr 2021 18:40:47 -0700 >> ? : > >> Objet : Re: Placement of Signs in Space >> >> I thought I recall something about the sizing being used for depth, but I don?t think that it would be necessary for everyday writing. Like I said, this situation rarely comes up for me. ;-) >> >> Here is a screen capture of what I wrote. It is talking about two baseball teams: The Nationals and the Diamondbacks. >> >> >> >> Notice the last two signs are supposed to have the depth. I feel that the shoulder line shows the number being closer to the body, but the other number doesn?t have the concept of being away from the body as it is written. >> >> As for the concepts of ?teams?, ASL makes use of placing concepts in specific locations all the time. It isn?t limited to names of teams. That is the reason the lanes work so well for this. However, it is common for people to have their preferred teams in sports, so that is where the depth comes into play. >> >> >> Adam >> >>> On Apr 15, 2021, at 6:17 PM, Valerie Sutton <0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU > wrote: >>> >>> SignWriting List >>> April 15, 2021 >>> >>> Hello everyone on the SignWriting List, and thank you for this message, Adam ;-) >>> >>> Of course this sounds like a very useful way to write ?teams? in sign language, but can you show us written examples in SignWriting? >>> >>> And since I am not a teacher of a classroom of ASL signers, maybe you could explain to me (and all of us) - what do you mean by ?teams?? Is it for writing some kind of a game in ASL? >>> >>> But to answer your question - the Lanes show us spatial comparisons and weight-shifting to the ?right of center? and to the ?left of center?. They are invaluable for writing spatial comparisons in sign languages. >>> >>> Technically there is a Lane that is ?far in front? and one that is ?close to the chest? - and one that is neutral in signing space - but over time we started to write those differences in ?depth? with Movement Symbols. We actually DID have a way to write ?depth? with hand symbols years ago, in the 1980s. >>> >>> This was a technique that really worked in the early days of SignWriting, when we were writing sign language by hand with ink pens. There were 3 sizes of hand symbols - the normal size we use everyday is the ?middle neutral space?, the smaller version of the symbol means ?far away from the chest? and the larger symbol means closer to the chest. This is based on art perspectives. Further away is always smaller. >>> >>> I have an article about this somewhere - I will try to find it and post it later. >>> >>> But, as time went by, it seemed like too much information that was not necessary for everyday writing, and for computer symbol sets, it was a real problem because it would double or triple the amount of symbols so the idea of "far being smaller" and ?close being larger? was ignored and we have one set of symbols at one size for everything. The ISWA 2010 is large enough! >>> >>> So how do we see ?depth? in everyday writing? Movement Symbols and some standardized spellings have helped. >>> >>> But now - Adam - please post some SignWriting showing us what you have written - many thanks! >>> >>> Val ;-) >>> >>> ---------- >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Apr 15, 2021, at 1:22 PM, Adam Frost > wrote: >>>> >>>> I was doing some writing in SignWriting and came across an issue that I never really thought of in the past. In ASL, scores can be done by placing the teams in a location and then giving the numbers of the score in that location. For example, I can have one team on the right and another on the left. If I sign 4 on the right and then 5 on the left, it clearly says who has what score. This is easily done using the lanes in SignWriting. >>>> >>>> The issue came into play when it was giving scores for ?my team? vs ?your team?. If I signed 4 near my chest and then 5 away from me, it would means ?I have 4 and you have 5.? When I tried to write this, I wrote the shoulder line over 4 and wrote 5 as I do normally. This didn?t really seem like an issue to me until I had a friend asked me how I knew that 5 was signed away from my body rather than just in the neutral location when signing 5 on its own. I had said I just assumed it, but that got me thinking if there was a simple way to write it so that it would be clear and didn?t have to be assumed. Is there? >>>> >>>> >>>> Adam >>>> >>> >>> ____________ >>> >>> ________________________________________________ >>> >>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >> ________________________________________________ >> >> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ >> >> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: namesign.png Type: image/png Size: 440 bytes Desc: not available URL: From 0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU Fri Apr 16 18:03:29 2021 From: 0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU (Valerie Sutton) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 11:03:29 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] [SPAM] Re: Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <15B12B43-D2E5-4C97-AA46-0B7B86345606@mac.com> SignWriting List April 16, 2021 Hello Andre and everyone! The reason you have not been getting emails from the SignWriting List lately, is, most likely, because there haven?t been any messages until yesterday, when Adam posted, and so did others. I look forward to reading and answering each one now. I have been ?inactive? online for awhile, but I am back now, and I am grateful to see how many people are using SignWriting. It is gratifying, and also very interesting. So Andre, if you got this message, then I think you are getting the messages from the SignWriting List. I will write to you privately in a few days to be sure you got this one - ha! Hope you and your family are well and that your projects are many ;-) Val ;-) ------------ > On Apr 16, 2021, at 10:31 AM, Andr? Thibeault wrote: > > Hello Val, > > I notice that I did not get many emails from SignWriting list. I do not understand why I do not receive them? > > Best regards, > > Andr? > > De : Stephen Slevinski > > R?pondre ? : "SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages" > > Date : Fri, 16 Apr 2021 11:50:48 -0500 > ? : > > Objet : Re: [SPAM] Re: Placement of Signs in Space > > Hi Jonathan, > > SignMaker 2017 supports the styling string, but it is a manual entry process and only for creating PNG or SVG output images. > http://signbank.org/signmaker/#?ui=en > > > > This example uses a styling string of "--Z01,0.5Z03,2" > Z01,0.5 = Zoom for first symbol of 0.5. > Z03,2 = Zoom for third symbol of 2 > > This topic gets into the difference between plain-text and rich-text. > Oversimplified, plain-text focuses on meaning while rich-text adds formatting. > > If you take away formatting from rich-text, you should be left with understandable plain-text. > > I believe a sign should be understandable without differences in symbol size. > > -Steve > > > > > On 4/16/21 10:02 AM, Jonathan Duncan wrote: >> Hi Adam, >> Actually it is presently possible to write smaller hand shapes with the existing fonts. >> If you go to >> https://jonathandduncan.github.io/QuickSignEditor/signmaker/#?ui=en >> And click on QuickSignEditor, >> >> You can change the size of the symbols. It uses the styling portion of the FSW that Steve and I created together. >> >> Use minus in the circle button. >> >> I'm don't know if any of the other editors can change the symbol size or not. >> For some reason, the symbol styling isn't coming across to the version of SignMaker I have it hosted in. >> So the technology is there, it's probably just a matter of adding a few more control to the editors for you to actually be able to do it and save it in SignPuddle. >> Steve, what is your take on this subject? >> Regards, >> Jonathan >> >> On 4/16/2021 8:31 AM, Adam Frost wrote: >>> Thank you Cherie and Andr? for your suggestions. >>> >>> Cherie, I agree that ?other? team is still in neutral space, only farther away, while ?my? team is closer to my chest. While I don?t see ?my? team as actually touching my chest, I can see your suggestion for the touch symbol. Do you think that would make more sense than the shoulder line to imply that the sign is at or near the chest? >>> >>> Andr?, your overhead view does make sense as being useful for showing depth, but the palm facing seems to be confusing. As you had it written, it means the palm is facing up rather than facing the chest. Unless I am wrong, the palm facings would would be as the following: >>> >>> >>> >>> If changing the view would make depth easier to see, I think using the side view would be easier for the palm facings. >>> >>> >>> >>> However, I don?t know if I like changing the viewpoint in everyday writing in such rare cases. >>> >>> However, I did notice that Andr? combined the two scores into one sign to show the depth. I think that this would work (without having to change the viewpoint at all) only if both numbers are stated together. >>> >>> >>> >>> I am not sure how I would write the ?other? team?s score to clearly show the depth without the viewpoint change. I do like the idea of having it be ?smaller? to show it is farther away, but I?m not sure if that is practical either. (Just a thought, wouldn?t that just be handled by the font much like superscripts and subscripts? This doesn?t actually ?create? more symbols when this is done. Hmm?) >>> >>> >>> Adam >>> >>>> On Apr 16, 2021, at 3:23 AM, Cherie Wren <000000111c1a7803-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU > wrote: >>>> >>>> when I sign two team scores, its usually one nearly touching my chest (my team) and one farther away... but still in neutral space. Perhaps a touch symbol for the nearer "my team"? >>>> >>>> On Thursday, April 15, 2021, 10:39:35 PM EDT, Andr? Thibeault > wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Hello Adaame and Val, >>>> >>>> I write this: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> >>>> Andr? >>>> De : Adam Frost > >>>> R?pondre ? : "SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages" > >>>> Date : Thu, 15 Apr 2021 18:40:47 -0700 >>>> ? : > >>>> Objet : Re: Placement of Signs in Space >>>> >>>> I thought I recall something about the sizing being used for depth, but I don?t think that it would be necessary for everyday writing. Like I said, this situation rarely comes up for me. ;-) >>>> >>>> Here is a screen capture of what I wrote. It is talking about two baseball teams: The Nationals and the Diamondbacks. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Notice the last two signs are supposed to have the depth. I feel that the shoulder line shows the number being closer to the body, but the other number doesn?t have the concept of being away from the body as it is written. >>>> >>>> As for the concepts of ?teams?, ASL makes use of placing concepts in specific locations all the time. It isn?t limited to names of teams. That is the reason the lanes work so well for this. However, it is common for people to have their preferred teams in sports, so that is where the depth comes into play. >>>> >>>> >>>> Adam >>>> >>>>> On Apr 15, 2021, at 6:17 PM, Valerie Sutton <0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> SignWriting List >>>>> April 15, 2021 >>>>> >>>>> Hello everyone on the SignWriting List, and thank you for this message, Adam ;-) >>>>> >>>>> Of course this sounds like a very useful way to write ?teams? in sign language, but can you show us written examples in SignWriting? >>>>> >>>>> And since I am not a teacher of a classroom of ASL signers, maybe you could explain to me (and all of us) - what do you mean by ?teams?? Is it for writing some kind of a game in ASL? >>>>> >>>>> But to answer your question - the Lanes show us spatial comparisons and weight-shifting to the ?right of center? and to the ?left of center?. They are invaluable for writing spatial comparisons in sign languages. >>>>> >>>>> Technically there is a Lane that is ?far in front? and one that is ?close to the chest? - and one that is neutral in signing space - but over time we started to write those differences in ?depth? with Movement Symbols. We actually DID have a way to write ?depth? with hand symbols years ago, in the 1980s. >>>>> >>>>> This was a technique that really worked in the early days of SignWriting, when we were writing sign language by hand with ink pens. There were 3 sizes of hand symbols - the normal size we use everyday is the ?middle neutral space?, the smaller version of the symbol means ?far away from the chest? and the larger symbol means closer to the chest. This is based on art perspectives. Further away is always smaller. >>>>> >>>>> I have an article about this somewhere - I will try to find it and post it later. >>>>> >>>>> But, as time went by, it seemed like too much information that was not necessary for everyday writing, and for computer symbol sets, it was a real problem because it would double or triple the amount of symbols so the idea of "far being smaller" and ?close being larger? was ignored and we have one set of symbols at one size for everything. The ISWA 2010 is large enough! >>>>> >>>>> So how do we see ?depth? in everyday writing? Movement Symbols and some standardized spellings have helped. >>>>> >>>>> But now - Adam - please post some SignWriting showing us what you have written - many thanks! >>>>> >>>>> Val ;-) >>>>> >>>>> ---------- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Apr 15, 2021, at 1:22 PM, Adam Frost > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I was doing some writing in SignWriting and came across an issue that I never really thought of in the past. In ASL, scores can be done by placing the teams in a location and then giving the numbers of the score in that location. For example, I can have one team on the right and another on the left. If I sign 4 on the right and then 5 on the left, it clearly says who has what score. This is easily done using the lanes in SignWriting. >>>>>> >>>>>> The issue came into play when it was giving scores for ?my team? vs ?your team?. If I signed 4 near my chest and then 5 away from me, it would means ?I have 4 and you have 5.? When I tried to write this, I wrote the shoulder line over 4 and wrote 5 as I do normally. This didn?t really seem like an issue to me until I had a friend asked me how I knew that 5 was signed away from my body rather than just in the neutral location when signing 5 on its own. I had said I just assumed it, but that got me thinking if there was a simple way to write it so that it would be clear and didn?t have to be assumed. Is there? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Adam >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ____________ >>>>> >>>>> ________________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >>>> ________________________________________________ >>>> >>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ >>>> >>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ >>>> >>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >>> >>> ________________________________________________ >>> >>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ >> >> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: Screen Shot 2021-04-16 at 7.22.39 AM.png Type: image/png Size: 11101 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2021-04-16 at 7.25.31 AM.png Type: image/png Size: 6692 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: namesign.png Type: image/png Size: 440 bytes Desc: not available URL: From icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM Fri Apr 16 18:18:03 2021 From: icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM (Adam Frost) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 11:18:03 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] [SPAM] Re: Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You didn?t get me email? Odd. Maybe it went into spam? You can always check the archive online to be sure. http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist I could be wrong about the palm facing from the top view. That is what I was checking to be sure. ;-) Adam > On Apr 16, 2021, at 11:12 AM, Andr? Thibeault wrote: > > Hello Adam, > > I did not get your email from SwignWriting list. But, I only got one email from Steve. > > I write this. I believe that the palm is facing the chest. But you believe that the palm is facing up. I learn about it. > > > > > I believe that the palm is facing up below. > > > > I think that many signwritters believe that the palm is facing up above. > > I hope that I will get other emails from SignWring list. > > Best regards, > > Andr? > > De : Stephen Slevinski > > R?pondre ? : "SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages" > > Date : Fri, 16 Apr 2021 11:50:48 -0500 > ? : > > Objet : Re: [SPAM] Re: Placement of Signs in Space > > Hi Jonathan, > > SignMaker 2017 supports the styling string, but it is a manual entry process and only for creating PNG or SVG output images. > http://signbank.org/signmaker/#?ui=en > > > > This example uses a styling string of "--Z01,0.5Z03,2" > Z01,0.5 = Zoom for first symbol of 0.5. > Z03,2 = Zoom for third symbol of 2 > > This topic gets into the difference between plain-text and rich-text. > Oversimplified, plain-text focuses on meaning while rich-text adds formatting. > > If you take away formatting from rich-text, you should be left with understandable plain-text. > > I believe a sign should be understandable without differences in symbol size. > > -Steve > > > > > On 4/16/21 10:02 AM, Jonathan Duncan wrote: >> Hi Adam, >> Actually it is presently possible to write smaller hand shapes with the existing fonts. >> If you go to >> https://jonathandduncan.github.io/QuickSignEditor/signmaker/#?ui=en >> And click on QuickSignEditor, >> >> You can change the size of the symbols. It uses the styling portion of the FSW that Steve and I created together. >> >> Use minus in the circle button. >> >> I'm don't know if any of the other editors can change the symbol size or not. >> For some reason, the symbol styling isn't coming across to the version of SignMaker I have it hosted in. >> So the technology is there, it's probably just a matter of adding a few more control to the editors for you to actually be able to do it and save it in SignPuddle. >> Steve, what is your take on this subject? >> Regards, >> Jonathan >> >> On 4/16/2021 8:31 AM, Adam Frost wrote: >>> Thank you Cherie and Andr? for your suggestions. >>> >>> Cherie, I agree that ?other? team is still in neutral space, only farther away, while ?my? team is closer to my chest. While I don?t see ?my? team as actually touching my chest, I can see your suggestion for the touch symbol. Do you think that would make more sense than the shoulder line to imply that the sign is at or near the chest? >>> >>> Andr?, your overhead view does make sense as being useful for showing depth, but the palm facing seems to be confusing. As you had it written, it means the palm is facing up rather than facing the chest. Unless I am wrong, the palm facings would would be as the following: >>> >>> >>> >>> If changing the view would make depth easier to see, I think using the side view would be easier for the palm facings. >>> >>> >>> >>> However, I don?t know if I like changing the viewpoint in everyday writing in such rare cases. >>> >>> However, I did notice that Andr? combined the two scores into one sign to show the depth. I think that this would work (without having to change the viewpoint at all) only if both numbers are stated together. >>> >>> >>> >>> I am not sure how I would write the ?other? team?s score to clearly show the depth without the viewpoint change. I do like the idea of having it be ?smaller? to show it is farther away, but I?m not sure if that is practical either. (Just a thought, wouldn?t that just be handled by the font much like superscripts and subscripts? This doesn?t actually ?create? more symbols when this is done. Hmm?) >>> >>> >>> Adam >>> >>>> On Apr 16, 2021, at 3:23 AM, Cherie Wren <000000111c1a7803-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU > wrote: >>>> >>>> when I sign two team scores, its usually one nearly touching my chest (my team) and one farther away... but still in neutral space. Perhaps a touch symbol for the nearer "my team"? >>>> >>>> On Thursday, April 15, 2021, 10:39:35 PM EDT, Andr? Thibeault > wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Hello Adaame and Val, >>>> >>>> I write this: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> >>>> Andr? >>>> De : Adam Frost > >>>> R?pondre ? : "SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages" > >>>> Date : Thu, 15 Apr 2021 18:40:47 -0700 >>>> ? : > >>>> Objet : Re: Placement of Signs in Space >>>> >>>> I thought I recall something about the sizing being used for depth, but I don?t think that it would be necessary for everyday writing. Like I said, this situation rarely comes up for me. ;-) >>>> >>>> Here is a screen capture of what I wrote. It is talking about two baseball teams: The Nationals and the Diamondbacks. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Notice the last two signs are supposed to have the depth. I feel that the shoulder line shows the number being closer to the body, but the other number doesn?t have the concept of being away from the body as it is written. >>>> >>>> As for the concepts of ?teams?, ASL makes use of placing concepts in specific locations all the time. It isn?t limited to names of teams. That is the reason the lanes work so well for this. However, it is common for people to have their preferred teams in sports, so that is where the depth comes into play. >>>> >>>> >>>> Adam >>>> >>>>> On Apr 15, 2021, at 6:17 PM, Valerie Sutton <0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> SignWriting List >>>>> April 15, 2021 >>>>> >>>>> Hello everyone on the SignWriting List, and thank you for this message, Adam ;-) >>>>> >>>>> Of course this sounds like a very useful way to write ?teams? in sign language, but can you show us written examples in SignWriting? >>>>> >>>>> And since I am not a teacher of a classroom of ASL signers, maybe you could explain to me (and all of us) - what do you mean by ?teams?? Is it for writing some kind of a game in ASL? >>>>> >>>>> But to answer your question - the Lanes show us spatial comparisons and weight-shifting to the ?right of center? and to the ?left of center?. They are invaluable for writing spatial comparisons in sign languages. >>>>> >>>>> Technically there is a Lane that is ?far in front? and one that is ?close to the chest? - and one that is neutral in signing space - but over time we started to write those differences in ?depth? with Movement Symbols. We actually DID have a way to write ?depth? with hand symbols years ago, in the 1980s. >>>>> >>>>> This was a technique that really worked in the early days of SignWriting, when we were writing sign language by hand with ink pens. There were 3 sizes of hand symbols - the normal size we use everyday is the ?middle neutral space?, the smaller version of the symbol means ?far away from the chest? and the larger symbol means closer to the chest. This is based on art perspectives. Further away is always smaller. >>>>> >>>>> I have an article about this somewhere - I will try to find it and post it later. >>>>> >>>>> But, as time went by, it seemed like too much information that was not necessary for everyday writing, and for computer symbol sets, it was a real problem because it would double or triple the amount of symbols so the idea of "far being smaller" and ?close being larger? was ignored and we have one set of symbols at one size for everything. The ISWA 2010 is large enough! >>>>> >>>>> So how do we see ?depth? in everyday writing? Movement Symbols and some standardized spellings have helped. >>>>> >>>>> But now - Adam - please post some SignWriting showing us what you have written - many thanks! >>>>> >>>>> Val ;-) >>>>> >>>>> ---------- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Apr 15, 2021, at 1:22 PM, Adam Frost > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I was doing some writing in SignWriting and came across an issue that I never really thought of in the past. In ASL, scores can be done by placing the teams in a location and then giving the numbers of the score in that location. For example, I can have one team on the right and another on the left. If I sign 4 on the right and then 5 on the left, it clearly says who has what score. This is easily done using the lanes in SignWriting. >>>>>> >>>>>> The issue came into play when it was giving scores for ?my team? vs ?your team?. If I signed 4 near my chest and then 5 away from me, it would means ?I have 4 and you have 5.? When I tried to write this, I wrote the shoulder line over 4 and wrote 5 as I do normally. This didn?t really seem like an issue to me until I had a friend asked me how I knew that 5 was signed away from my body rather than just in the neutral location when signing 5 on its own. I had said I just assumed it, but that got me thinking if there was a simple way to write it so that it would be clear and didn?t have to be assumed. Is there? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Adam >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ____________ >>>>> >>>>> ________________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >>>> ________________________________________________ >>>> >>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ >>>> >>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ >>>> >>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >>> >>> ________________________________________________ >>> >>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ >> >> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: namesign.png Type: image/png Size: 440 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kaciodelima at GMAIL.COM Fri Apr 16 18:34:23 2021 From: kaciodelima at GMAIL.COM (Kacio de Lima Evangelista) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 15:34:23 -0300 Subject: [Sw-l] Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: <2FC8FC1F-461B-4ED2-B726-8A332F4BD08A@gmail.com> References: <2FC8FC1F-461B-4ED2-B726-8A332F4BD08A@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi! I usually use the upper point of view only when I see that there will be depth confusion or if the signal uses the arm horizontally as a support for the pronunciation. Here is an example: [image: image.png] ("white" in Libras) About decreasing the size of the sign to stand out in the text, I use it as a strategy to emphasize the names of people and places or a specific sign, something similar to the bold and italic font. This is because it helps to quickly identify whether the written sign is a proper name or focus of the topic to be treated. *Atenciosamente,* *Prof. K?cio Evangelista.* Em sex., 16 de abr. de 2021 ?s 15:15, Adam Frost escreveu: > The lanes work great in most cases since the spatial comparison is usually > on the sides. However, I have ran into an issue when the spatial comparison > uses depth to imply me and you. This isn?t usage of depth isn?t used often, > but it is necessary at times to convey the correct meaning. > > So I guess the top view is the way to go when depth must be shown. Does > that mean that the palm facing should change accordingly to keep with the > view change? If so, how would what I used in my example be written? > > > Adam > > On Apr 16, 2021, at 10:57 AM, Valerie Sutton < > 0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU> wrote: > > SignWriting List > April 16, 2021 > > Hello Andre and Adam - > > Thanks to you both for posting examples in SignWriting. > > Andre - it has been a long time since we have communicated. I appreciate > your suggestion writing with the Top View of the Head - that certainly > shows ?depth? well. > > And Adam - your writing with Lanes also works for me - both writings seem > readable. But I would not have thought of the Shoulder Line to mean that > the hand was necessarily closer to my chest or not, unless there was a > contact symbol with the chest. I suppose an added Surface Symbol might give > some information, but does the depth really matter? If this is a research > project where you really have to be accurate and it does matter, then using > the Top View of the Head would be the answer, but I suspect the way you > wrote it in Lanes is giving a Spatial Comparison enough that it is readable > in Lanes? > > I loved the smaller and larger hands to show ?depth? and I see that there > are some solutions by some of the messages posted to the List - I am > reading each email one by one - maybe software can do it after all! > > Those are my thoughts anyway - So great that you wrote to the List about > this, Adam - > > Nice to have the List active again - > > Val ;-) > > > ---------- > > > > On Apr 15, 2021, at 7:39 PM, Andr? Thibeault wrote: > > Hello Adaame and Val, > > I write this: > > > Best regards, > > Andr? > De : Adam Frost > R?pondre ? : "SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages" < > SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU> > Date : Thu, 15 Apr 2021 18:40:47 -0700 > ? : > Objet : Re: Placement of Signs in Space > > I thought I recall something about the sizing being used for depth, but I > don?t think that it would be necessary for everyday writing. Like I said, > this situation rarely comes up for me. ;-) > > Here is a screen capture of what I wrote. It is talking about two baseball > teams: The Nationals and the Diamondbacks. > > > > Notice the last two signs are supposed to have the depth. I feel that the > shoulder line shows the number being closer to the body, but the other > number doesn?t have the concept of being away from the body as it is > written. > > As for the concepts of ?teams?, ASL makes use of placing concepts in > specific locations all the time. It isn?t limited to names of teams. That > is the reason the lanes work so well for this. However, it is common for > people to have their preferred teams in sports, so that is where the depth > comes into play. > > > Adam > > On Apr 15, 2021, at 6:17 PM, Valerie Sutton < > 0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU> wrote: > > SignWriting List > April 15, 2021 > > Hello everyone on the SignWriting List, and thank you for this message, > Adam ;-) > > Of course this sounds like a very useful way to write ?teams? in sign > language, but can you show us written examples in SignWriting? > > And since I am not a teacher of a classroom of ASL signers, maybe you > could explain to me (and all of us) - what do you mean by ?teams?? Is it > for writing some kind of a game in ASL? > > But to answer your question - the Lanes show us spatial comparisons and > weight-shifting to the ?right of center? and to the ?left of center?. They > are invaluable for writing spatial comparisons in sign languages. > > Technically there is a Lane that is ?far in front? and one that is ?close > to the chest? - and one that is neutral in signing space - but over time we > started to write those differences in ?depth? with Movement Symbols. We > actually DID have a way to write ?depth? with hand symbols years ago, in > the 1980s. > > This was a technique that really worked in the early days of SignWriting, > when we were writing sign language by hand with ink pens. There were 3 > sizes of hand symbols - the normal size we use everyday is the ?middle > neutral space?, the smaller version of the symbol means ?far away from the > chest? and the larger symbol means closer to the chest. This is based on > art perspectives. Further away is always smaller. > > I have an article about this somewhere - I will try to find it and post it > later. > > But, as time went by, it seemed like too much information that was not > necessary for everyday writing, and for computer symbol sets, it was a real > problem because it would double or triple the amount of symbols so the idea > of "far being smaller" and ?close being larger? was ignored and we have one > set of symbols at one size for everything. The ISWA 2010 is large enough! > > So how do we see ?depth? in everyday writing? Movement Symbols and some > standardized spellings have helped. > > But now - Adam - please post some SignWriting showing us what you have > written - many thanks! > > Val ;-) > > ---------- > > > > On Apr 15, 2021, at 1:22 PM, Adam Frost wrote: > > I was doing some writing in SignWriting and came across an issue that I > never really thought of in the past. In ASL, scores can be done by placing > the teams in a location and then giving the numbers of the score in that > location. For example, I can have one team on the right and another on the > left. If I sign 4 on the right and then 5 on the left, it clearly says who > has what score. This is easily done using the lanes in SignWriting. > > The issue came into play when it was giving scores for ?my team? vs ?your > team?. If I signed 4 near my chest and then 5 away from me, it would means > ?I have 4 and you have 5.? When I tried to write this, I wrote the shoulder > line over 4 and wrote 5 as I do normally. This didn?t really seem like an > issue to me until I had a friend asked me how I knew that 5 was signed away > from my body rather than just in the neutral location when signing 5 on its > own. I had said I just assumed it, but that got me thinking if there was a > simple way to write it so that it would be clear and didn?t have to be > assumed. Is there? > > > Adam > > > ____________ > > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page > http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages > http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > > > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page > http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages > http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page > http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages > http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 Shot 2021-04-15 at 6.32.37 PM.png> > > > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page > http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages > http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > > > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page > http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages > http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: namesign.png Type: image/png Size: 440 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 4365 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sutton at DANCEWRITING.ORG Fri Apr 16 18:57:06 2021 From: sutton at DANCEWRITING.ORG (Valerie Sutton) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 11:57:06 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] Canonical way of representing signwriting programmatically In-Reply-To: <976424ee-bb61-7462-739e-89184d3d0b47@signpuddle.net> References: <976424ee-bb61-7462-739e-89184d3d0b47@signpuddle.net> Message-ID: <047D840C-83D0-4476-8698-337198A81268@dancewriting.org> SignWriting List April 15, 2021 Hello Jennica - Welcome to the SignWriting List - and I see Steve has answered your question about Fonts. Tell us a little bit about your project, Jennica - If we can help we are here for you - I started remembering our old SW Fingerspelling Fonts from two decades ago, which are still available for download on the web: https://www.signwriting.org/catalog/sw214.html I am not even sure these old Fingerspelling fonts are still working so I will test them later - our web sites go back to 1996 and there are lots of older links that need to be cleaned... There are software programs that use SignWriting symbols ? for example SignPuddle Online https://www.signbank.org/signpuddle/ SignWriter Studio https://www.signwriterstudio.com Rand keyboard https://swkb-35431.firebaseapp.com There are programs and apps from Germany: DELEGS https://delegs.de https://delegs.de/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/delegsEditor.jpg and older programs, such as: SignWriter DOS (1986-1996) but still works with DOSBox https://www.signwriting.org/forums/software/sw44/download/ SignWriter Java https://www.signwriting.org/forums/software/sw50/download/download01.html And so many more - Look forward to learning more about your work - Val ;-) ---------- > On Apr 15, 2021, at 3:44 PM, Stephen Slevinski wrote: > > Hi Jennica, > > You can check out a few YouTube videos if you want. > * https://stream.signwriting.org > > References can be found here: > * https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-slevinski-formal-signwriting-07#section-3.3 > * https://slevinski.github.io/SuttonSignWriting/components/svg.html > > You may be interested in the SignWriting Web Components. > * https://www.npmjs.com/package/@sutton-signwriting/sgnw-components > > When creating SVG images for SignWriting, there are two packages you can use. > * https://www.npmjs.com/package/@sutton-signwriting/font-ttf > * https://www.npmjs.com/package/@sutton-signwriting/font-db > > font-ttf is used in the browser and uses TTF files to view the images. > > font-db is used in node and uses a database to create stand-alone svg images. > > Regards, > -Steve > > On 4/15/21 3:37 PM, Jennica Pounds wrote: >> Hi, >> >> I'm interested in using SignWriting programmatically. Poking around the Internet, it seems like fonts aren't quite there, and creating SignWriting text is done via computer-aided SVGs. >> >> Is that correct? If so, where can I see the latest SVG/XML specifications? >> >> Jennica >> ________________________________________________ >> >> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >> >> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jennicaj at GMAIL.COM Fri Apr 16 19:06:43 2021 From: jennicaj at GMAIL.COM (Jennica Pounds) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 12:06:43 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] Canonical way of representing signwriting programmatically In-Reply-To: <047D840C-83D0-4476-8698-337198A81268@dancewriting.org> References: <976424ee-bb61-7462-739e-89184d3d0b47@signpuddle.net> <047D840C-83D0-4476-8698-337198A81268@dancewriting.org> Message-ID: Hi Val and Steve, Thank you for the warm welcome and resources. It is much appreciated. I'm sorry to be coy here, I am not authorized to give details on my project. I've been pursuing Steve's resources all day, and I'm amazed that such a complete expression & formalization of 3D arm & hand movement has been created, and does not seem well-known. Are you aware of any company using SignWriting as a way to formalize body/face movements in applications beyond sign language - for example, wearables? Jennica On Fri, Apr 16, 2021 at 11:57 AM Valerie Sutton wrote: > SignWriting List > April 15, 2021 > > Hello Jennica - > Welcome to the SignWriting List - and I see Steve has answered your > question about Fonts. > > Tell us a little bit about your project, Jennica - If we can help we are > here for you - > > I started remembering our old SW Fingerspelling Fonts from two decades > ago, which are still available for download on the web: > > https://www.signwriting.org/catalog/sw214.html > > I am not even sure these old Fingerspelling fonts are still working so I > will test them later - our web sites go back to 1996 and there are lots of > older links that need to be cleaned... > > There are software programs that use SignWriting symbols ? for example > > SignPuddle Online > https://www.signbank.org/signpuddle/ > > SignWriter Studio > https://www.signwriterstudio.com > > Rand keyboard > https://swkb-35431.firebaseapp.com > > There are programs and apps from Germany: > > DELEGS > https://delegs.de > https://delegs.de/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/delegsEditor.jpg > > and older programs, such as: > > SignWriter DOS (1986-1996) but still works with DOSBox > https://www.signwriting.org/forums/software/sw44/download/ > > SignWriter Java > https://www.signwriting.org/forums/software/sw50/download/download01.html > > And so many more - > > Look forward to learning more about your work - > > Val ;-) > > ---------- > > > > > On Apr 15, 2021, at 3:44 PM, Stephen Slevinski > wrote: > > Hi Jennica, > > You can check out a few YouTube videos if you want. > * https://stream.signwriting.org > > References can be found here: > * > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-slevinski-formal-signwriting-07#section-3.3 > * https://slevinski.github.io/SuttonSignWriting/components/svg.html > > You may be interested in the SignWriting Web Components. > * https://www.npmjs.com/package/@sutton-signwriting/sgnw-components > > When creating SVG images for SignWriting, there are two packages you can > use. > * https://www.npmjs.com/package/@sutton-signwriting/font-ttf > * https://www.npmjs.com/package/@sutton-signwriting/font-db > > font-ttf is used in the browser and uses TTF files to view the images. > > font-db is used in node and uses a database to create stand-alone svg > images. > > Regards, > -Steve > > On 4/15/21 3:37 PM, Jennica Pounds wrote: > > Hi, > > I'm interested in using SignWriting programmatically. Poking around the > Internet, it seems like fonts aren't quite there, and creating SignWriting > text is done via computer-aided SVGs. > > Is that correct? If so, where can I see the latest SVG/XML specifications? > > Jennica > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page > http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages > http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > > > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page > http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages > http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > > > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page > http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages > http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG Fri Apr 16 19:51:53 2021 From: sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG (Valerie Sutton) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 12:51:53 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: <2FC8FC1F-461B-4ED2-B726-8A332F4BD08A@gmail.com> References: <2FC8FC1F-461B-4ED2-B726-8A332F4BD08A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <547AE4F1-07F4-4D1C-B694-A34A197D2144@signwriting.org> SignWriting List April 16, 2021 Hi Adam - Yes, I know what you mean. For example, in verb modulations or conjugations, ?you give to me? and ?I give to you? do have a ?feeling of depth? in front of the body, and it is necessary at times to write this. The reason we started using smaller and larger symbols to show depth, years ago, was connected to writing classifiers. I need to find the proper notes to show you our thoughts at that time, but imagine that a classifer is showing a table?s legs and two of the legs are closer to your chest, and two of the table?s legs are further away from you. How can one see, in the SignWriting, that one of the hands showing the two fingers for the legs of the table is really farther in front than the other one? Size was a great way to show this visually, which actually comes from DanceWriting originally, when one leg would be further away than the other in fourth position and so forth? the Top View is accurate but a little annoying because we change viewpoints - where the size differences could keep the Front View and see the depth anyway - but I can see Kacio just posted that he uses smaller and larger for BOLD writing and that seems very logical too - so we would need to establish some standards if we tried to adopt size variations - so for now I think the Top View is best. Let me look at your writing later today and I will try to write it for you, although I bet you can try it yourself? Why not re-write it for us and post it? We are all learning from each other ;-) Val ;-) -------- > On Apr 16, 2021, at 11:14 AM, Adam Frost wrote: > > The lanes work great in most cases since the spatial comparison is usually on the sides. However, I have ran into an issue when the spatial comparison uses depth to imply me and you. This isn?t usage of depth isn?t used often, but it is necessary at times to convey the correct meaning. > > So I guess the top view is the way to go when depth must be shown. Does that mean that the palm facing should change accordingly to keep with the view change? If so, how would what I used in my example be written? > > > Adam > >> On Apr 16, 2021, at 10:57 AM, Valerie Sutton <0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU > wrote: >> >> SignWriting List >> April 16, 2021 >> >> Hello Andre and Adam - >> >> Thanks to you both for posting examples in SignWriting. >> >> Andre - it has been a long time since we have communicated. I appreciate your suggestion writing with the Top View of the Head - that certainly shows ?depth? well. >> >> And Adam - your writing with Lanes also works for me - both writings seem readable. But I would not have thought of the Shoulder Line to mean that the hand was necessarily closer to my chest or not, unless there was a contact symbol with the chest. I suppose an added Surface Symbol might give some information, but does the depth really matter? If this is a research project where you really have to be accurate and it does matter, then using the Top View of the Head would be the answer, but I suspect the way you wrote it in Lanes is giving a Spatial Comparison enough that it is readable in Lanes? >> >> I loved the smaller and larger hands to show ?depth? and I see that there are some solutions by some of the messages posted to the List - I am reading each email one by one - maybe software can do it after all! >> >> Those are my thoughts anyway - So great that you wrote to the List about this, Adam - >> >> Nice to have the List active again - >> >> Val ;-) >> >> >> ---------- >> >> >> >>> On Apr 15, 2021, at 7:39 PM, Andr? Thibeault > wrote: >>> >>> Hello Adaame and Val, >>> >>> I write this: >>> >>> >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Andr? >>> De : Adam Frost > >>> R?pondre ? : "SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages" > >>> Date : Thu, 15 Apr 2021 18:40:47 -0700 >>> ? : > >>> Objet : Re: Placement of Signs in Space >>> >>> I thought I recall something about the sizing being used for depth, but I don?t think that it would be necessary for everyday writing. Like I said, this situation rarely comes up for me. ;-) >>> >>> Here is a screen capture of what I wrote. It is talking about two baseball teams: The Nationals and the Diamondbacks. >>> >>> >>> >>> Notice the last two signs are supposed to have the depth. I feel that the shoulder line shows the number being closer to the body, but the other number doesn?t have the concept of being away from the body as it is written. >>> >>> As for the concepts of ?teams?, ASL makes use of placing concepts in specific locations all the time. It isn?t limited to names of teams. That is the reason the lanes work so well for this. However, it is common for people to have their preferred teams in sports, so that is where the depth comes into play. >>> >>> >>> Adam >>> >>>> On Apr 15, 2021, at 6:17 PM, Valerie Sutton <0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU > wrote: >>>> >>>> SignWriting List >>>> April 15, 2021 >>>> >>>> Hello everyone on the SignWriting List, and thank you for this message, Adam ;-) >>>> >>>> Of course this sounds like a very useful way to write ?teams? in sign language, but can you show us written examples in SignWriting? >>>> >>>> And since I am not a teacher of a classroom of ASL signers, maybe you could explain to me (and all of us) - what do you mean by ?teams?? Is it for writing some kind of a game in ASL? >>>> >>>> But to answer your question - the Lanes show us spatial comparisons and weight-shifting to the ?right of center? and to the ?left of center?. They are invaluable for writing spatial comparisons in sign languages. >>>> >>>> Technically there is a Lane that is ?far in front? and one that is ?close to the chest? - and one that is neutral in signing space - but over time we started to write those differences in ?depth? with Movement Symbols. We actually DID have a way to write ?depth? with hand symbols years ago, in the 1980s. >>>> >>>> This was a technique that really worked in the early days of SignWriting, when we were writing sign language by hand with ink pens. There were 3 sizes of hand symbols - the normal size we use everyday is the ?middle neutral space?, the smaller version of the symbol means ?far away from the chest? and the larger symbol means closer to the chest. This is based on art perspectives. Further away is always smaller. >>>> >>>> I have an article about this somewhere - I will try to find it and post it later. >>>> >>>> But, as time went by, it seemed like too much information that was not necessary for everyday writing, and for computer symbol sets, it was a real problem because it would double or triple the amount of symbols so the idea of "far being smaller" and ?close being larger? was ignored and we have one set of symbols at one size for everything. The ISWA 2010 is large enough! >>>> >>>> So how do we see ?depth? in everyday writing? Movement Symbols and some standardized spellings have helped. >>>> >>>> But now - Adam - please post some SignWriting showing us what you have written - many thanks! >>>> >>>> Val ;-) >>>> >>>> ---------- >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Apr 15, 2021, at 1:22 PM, Adam Frost > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I was doing some writing in SignWriting and came across an issue that I never really thought of in the past. In ASL, scores can be done by placing the teams in a location and then giving the numbers of the score in that location. For example, I can have one team on the right and another on the left. If I sign 4 on the right and then 5 on the left, it clearly says who has what score. This is easily done using the lanes in SignWriting. >>>>> >>>>> The issue came into play when it was giving scores for ?my team? vs ?your team?. If I signed 4 near my chest and then 5 away from me, it would means ?I have 4 and you have 5.? When I tried to write this, I wrote the shoulder line over 4 and wrote 5 as I do normally. This didn?t really seem like an issue to me until I had a friend asked me how I knew that 5 was signed away from my body rather than just in the neutral location when signing 5 on its own. I had said I just assumed it, but that got me thinking if there was a simple way to write it so that it would be clear and didn?t have to be assumed. Is there? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Adam >>>>> >>>> >>>> ____________ >>>> >>>> ________________________________________________ >>>> >>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >>> ________________________________________________ >>> >>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ >>> >>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >> >> ________________________________________________ >> >> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >> >> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: namesign.png Type: image/png Size: 440 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG Fri Apr 16 20:00:33 2021 From: sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG (Valerie Sutton) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 13:00:33 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: References: <2FC8FC1F-461B-4ED2-B726-8A332F4BD08A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6BA2668D-BB18-43B7-B814-A9091C113A16@signwriting.org> SignWriting List April 16, 2021 Hello Kacio! Great to hear from you. I like your examples of writing from the Top View to show difficult positions. Nice diagrams. And your idea to use size differences for BOLD or ITALIC or PROPER NOUNS is a good idea. If it works, it works ;-) For those who may not know your work? Kacio has published the most beautiful book on LIBRAS poetry (poetry in Brazilian Sign Language). Here is the link to one of his books: https://www.signwriting.org/archive/docs13/sw1213_Brasil_Previa_Livro_SER_Kacio_de_Lima.pdf Val ;-) ?????? > On Apr 16, 2021, at 11:34 AM, Kacio de Lima Evangelista wrote: > > Hi! > > > I usually use the upper point of view only when I see that there will be depth confusion or if the signal uses the arm horizontally as a support for the pronunciation. Here is an example: > > > > ("white" in Libras) > > > About decreasing the size of the sign to stand out in the text, I use it as a strategy to emphasize the names of people and places or a specific sign, something similar to the bold and italic font. > > This is because it helps to quickly identify whether the written sign is a proper name or focus of the topic to be treated. > > > > Atenciosamente, > > Prof. K?cio Evangelista. > > > Em sex., 16 de abr. de 2021 ?s 15:15, Adam Frost > escreveu: > The lanes work great in most cases since the spatial comparison is usually on the sides. However, I have ran into an issue when the spatial comparison uses depth to imply me and you. This isn?t usage of depth isn?t used often, but it is necessary at times to convey the correct meaning. > > So I guess the top view is the way to go when depth must be shown. Does that mean that the palm facing should change accordingly to keep with the view change? If so, how would what I used in my example be written? > > > Adam > >> On Apr 16, 2021, at 10:57 AM, Valerie Sutton <0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU > wrote: >> >> SignWriting List >> April 16, 2021 >> >> Hello Andre and Adam - >> >> Thanks to you both for posting examples in SignWriting. >> >> Andre - it has been a long time since we have communicated. I appreciate your suggestion writing with the Top View of the Head - that certainly shows ?depth? well. >> >> And Adam - your writing with Lanes also works for me - both writings seem readable. But I would not have thought of the Shoulder Line to mean that the hand was necessarily closer to my chest or not, unless there was a contact symbol with the chest. I suppose an added Surface Symbol might give some information, but does the depth really matter? If this is a research project where you really have to be accurate and it does matter, then using the Top View of the Head would be the answer, but I suspect the way you wrote it in Lanes is giving a Spatial Comparison enough that it is readable in Lanes? >> >> I loved the smaller and larger hands to show ?depth? and I see that there are some solutions by some of the messages posted to the List - I am reading each email one by one - maybe software can do it after all! >> >> Those are my thoughts anyway - So great that you wrote to the List about this, Adam - >> >> Nice to have the List active again - >> >> Val ;-) >> >> >> ---------- >> >> >> >>> On Apr 15, 2021, at 7:39 PM, Andr? Thibeault > wrote: >>> >>> Hello Adaame and Val, >>> >>> I write this: >>> >>> >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Andr? >>> De : Adam Frost > >>> R?pondre ? : "SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages" > >>> Date : Thu, 15 Apr 2021 18:40:47 -0700 >>> ? : > >>> Objet : Re: Placement of Signs in Space >>> >>> I thought I recall something about the sizing being used for depth, but I don?t think that it would be necessary for everyday writing. Like I said, this situation rarely comes up for me. ;-) >>> >>> Here is a screen capture of what I wrote. It is talking about two baseball teams: The Nationals and the Diamondbacks. >>> >>> >>> >>> Notice the last two signs are supposed to have the depth. I feel that the shoulder line shows the number being closer to the body, but the other number doesn?t have the concept of being away from the body as it is written. >>> >>> As for the concepts of ?teams?, ASL makes use of placing concepts in specific locations all the time. It isn?t limited to names of teams. That is the reason the lanes work so well for this. However, it is common for people to have their preferred teams in sports, so that is where the depth comes into play. >>> >>> >>> Adam >>> >>>> On Apr 15, 2021, at 6:17 PM, Valerie Sutton <0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU > wrote: >>>> >>>> SignWriting List >>>> April 15, 2021 >>>> >>>> Hello everyone on the SignWriting List, and thank you for this message, Adam ;-) >>>> >>>> Of course this sounds like a very useful way to write ?teams? in sign language, but can you show us written examples in SignWriting? >>>> >>>> And since I am not a teacher of a classroom of ASL signers, maybe you could explain to me (and all of us) - what do you mean by ?teams?? Is it for writing some kind of a game in ASL? >>>> >>>> But to answer your question - the Lanes show us spatial comparisons and weight-shifting to the ?right of center? and to the ?left of center?. They are invaluable for writing spatial comparisons in sign languages. >>>> >>>> Technically there is a Lane that is ?far in front? and one that is ?close to the chest? - and one that is neutral in signing space - but over time we started to write those differences in ?depth? with Movement Symbols. We actually DID have a way to write ?depth? with hand symbols years ago, in the 1980s. >>>> >>>> This was a technique that really worked in the early days of SignWriting, when we were writing sign language by hand with ink pens. There were 3 sizes of hand symbols - the normal size we use everyday is the ?middle neutral space?, the smaller version of the symbol means ?far away from the chest? and the larger symbol means closer to the chest. This is based on art perspectives. Further away is always smaller. >>>> >>>> I have an article about this somewhere - I will try to find it and post it later. >>>> >>>> But, as time went by, it seemed like too much information that was not necessary for everyday writing, and for computer symbol sets, it was a real problem because it would double or triple the amount of symbols so the idea of "far being smaller" and ?close being larger? was ignored and we have one set of symbols at one size for everything. The ISWA 2010 is large enough! >>>> >>>> So how do we see ?depth? in everyday writing? Movement Symbols and some standardized spellings have helped. >>>> >>>> But now - Adam - please post some SignWriting showing us what you have written - many thanks! >>>> >>>> Val ;-) >>>> >>>> ---------- >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Apr 15, 2021, at 1:22 PM, Adam Frost > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I was doing some writing in SignWriting and came across an issue that I never really thought of in the past. In ASL, scores can be done by placing the teams in a location and then giving the numbers of the score in that location. For example, I can have one team on the right and another on the left. If I sign 4 on the right and then 5 on the left, it clearly says who has what score. This is easily done using the lanes in SignWriting. >>>>> >>>>> The issue came into play when it was giving scores for ?my team? vs ?your team?. If I signed 4 near my chest and then 5 away from me, it would means ?I have 4 and you have 5.? When I tried to write this, I wrote the shoulder line over 4 and wrote 5 as I do normally. This didn?t really seem like an issue to me until I had a friend asked me how I knew that 5 was signed away from my body rather than just in the neutral location when signing 5 on its own. I had said I just assumed it, but that got me thinking if there was a simple way to write it so that it would be clear and didn?t have to be assumed. Is there? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Adam >>>>> >>>> >>>> ____________ >>>> >>>> ________________________________________________ >>>> >>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >>> ________________________________________________ >>> >>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ >>> >>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >> >> ________________________________________________ >> >> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >> >> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: LIBRAS Poetry.png Type: image/png Size: 53789 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 4365 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: namesign.png Type: image/png Size: 440 bytes Desc: not available URL: From icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM Wed Apr 21 04:06:02 2021 From: icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM (Adam Frost) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2021 21:06:02 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: <547AE4F1-07F4-4D1C-B694-A34A197D2144@signwriting.org> References: <2FC8FC1F-461B-4ED2-B726-8A332F4BD08A@gmail.com> <547AE4F1-07F4-4D1C-B694-A34A197D2144@signwriting.org> Message-ID: <2ABE1B97-D8D3-456B-861C-79390B5F7B91@gmail.com> I tried to write the ?I have 5 and you have 4? phrase using the top view. I am not sure about the palm facing so I wrote it twice, but neither seem to be right for some reason. It could just be that I am not used to writing from the top view. ;-) Adam > On Apr 16, 2021, at 12:51 PM, Valerie Sutton wrote: > > SignWriting List > April 16, 2021 > > Hi Adam - > Yes, I know what you mean. For example, in verb modulations or conjugations, ?you give to me? and ?I give to you? do have a ?feeling of depth? in front of the body, and it is necessary at times to write this. The reason we started using smaller and larger symbols to show depth, years ago, was connected to writing classifiers. I need to find the proper notes to show you our thoughts at that time, but imagine that a classifer is showing a table?s legs and two of the legs are closer to your chest, and two of the table?s legs are further away from you. How can one see, in the SignWriting, that one of the hands showing the two fingers for the legs of the table is really farther in front than the other one? Size was a great way to show this visually, which actually comes from DanceWriting originally, when one leg would be further away than the other in fourth position and so forth? the Top View is accurate but a little annoying because we change viewpoints - where the size differences could keep the Front View and see the depth anyway - but I can see Kacio just posted that he uses smaller and larger for BOLD writing and that seems very logical too - so we would need to establish some standards if we tried to adopt size variations - so for now I think the Top View is best. > > Let me look at your writing later today and I will try to write it for you, although I bet you can try it yourself? Why not re-write it for us and post it? We are all learning from each other ;-) > > Val ;-) > > -------- > > >> On Apr 16, 2021, at 11:14 AM, Adam Frost > wrote: >> >> The lanes work great in most cases since the spatial comparison is usually on the sides. However, I have ran into an issue when the spatial comparison uses depth to imply me and you. This isn?t usage of depth isn?t used often, but it is necessary at times to convey the correct meaning. >> >> So I guess the top view is the way to go when depth must be shown. Does that mean that the palm facing should change accordingly to keep with the view change? If so, how would what I used in my example be written? >> >> >> Adam >> >>> On Apr 16, 2021, at 10:57 AM, Valerie Sutton <0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU > wrote: >>> >>> SignWriting List >>> April 16, 2021 >>> >>> Hello Andre and Adam - >>> >>> Thanks to you both for posting examples in SignWriting. >>> >>> Andre - it has been a long time since we have communicated. I appreciate your suggestion writing with the Top View of the Head - that certainly shows ?depth? well. >>> >>> And Adam - your writing with Lanes also works for me - both writings seem readable. But I would not have thought of the Shoulder Line to mean that the hand was necessarily closer to my chest or not, unless there was a contact symbol with the chest. I suppose an added Surface Symbol might give some information, but does the depth really matter? If this is a research project where you really have to be accurate and it does matter, then using the Top View of the Head would be the answer, but I suspect the way you wrote it in Lanes is giving a Spatial Comparison enough that it is readable in Lanes? >>> >>> I loved the smaller and larger hands to show ?depth? and I see that there are some solutions by some of the messages posted to the List - I am reading each email one by one - maybe software can do it after all! >>> >>> Those are my thoughts anyway - So great that you wrote to the List about this, Adam - >>> >>> Nice to have the List active again - >>> >>> Val ;-) >>> >>> >>> ---------- >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Apr 15, 2021, at 7:39 PM, Andr? Thibeault > wrote: >>>> >>>> Hello Adaame and Val, >>>> >>>> I write this: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> >>>> Andr? >>>> De : Adam Frost > >>>> R?pondre ? : "SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages" > >>>> Date : Thu, 15 Apr 2021 18:40:47 -0700 >>>> ? : > >>>> Objet : Re: Placement of Signs in Space >>>> >>>> I thought I recall something about the sizing being used for depth, but I don?t think that it would be necessary for everyday writing. Like I said, this situation rarely comes up for me. ;-) >>>> >>>> Here is a screen capture of what I wrote. It is talking about two baseball teams: The Nationals and the Diamondbacks. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Notice the last two signs are supposed to have the depth. I feel that the shoulder line shows the number being closer to the body, but the other number doesn?t have the concept of being away from the body as it is written. >>>> >>>> As for the concepts of ?teams?, ASL makes use of placing concepts in specific locations all the time. It isn?t limited to names of teams. That is the reason the lanes work so well for this. However, it is common for people to have their preferred teams in sports, so that is where the depth comes into play. >>>> >>>> >>>> Adam >>>> >>>>> On Apr 15, 2021, at 6:17 PM, Valerie Sutton <0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> SignWriting List >>>>> April 15, 2021 >>>>> >>>>> Hello everyone on the SignWriting List, and thank you for this message, Adam ;-) >>>>> >>>>> Of course this sounds like a very useful way to write ?teams? in sign language, but can you show us written examples in SignWriting? >>>>> >>>>> And since I am not a teacher of a classroom of ASL signers, maybe you could explain to me (and all of us) - what do you mean by ?teams?? Is it for writing some kind of a game in ASL? >>>>> >>>>> But to answer your question - the Lanes show us spatial comparisons and weight-shifting to the ?right of center? and to the ?left of center?. They are invaluable for writing spatial comparisons in sign languages. >>>>> >>>>> Technically there is a Lane that is ?far in front? and one that is ?close to the chest? - and one that is neutral in signing space - but over time we started to write those differences in ?depth? with Movement Symbols. We actually DID have a way to write ?depth? with hand symbols years ago, in the 1980s. >>>>> >>>>> This was a technique that really worked in the early days of SignWriting, when we were writing sign language by hand with ink pens. There were 3 sizes of hand symbols - the normal size we use everyday is the ?middle neutral space?, the smaller version of the symbol means ?far away from the chest? and the larger symbol means closer to the chest. This is based on art perspectives. Further away is always smaller. >>>>> >>>>> I have an article about this somewhere - I will try to find it and post it later. >>>>> >>>>> But, as time went by, it seemed like too much information that was not necessary for everyday writing, and for computer symbol sets, it was a real problem because it would double or triple the amount of symbols so the idea of "far being smaller" and ?close being larger? was ignored and we have one set of symbols at one size for everything. The ISWA 2010 is large enough! >>>>> >>>>> So how do we see ?depth? in everyday writing? Movement Symbols and some standardized spellings have helped. >>>>> >>>>> But now - Adam - please post some SignWriting showing us what you have written - many thanks! >>>>> >>>>> Val ;-) >>>>> >>>>> ---------- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Apr 15, 2021, at 1:22 PM, Adam Frost > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I was doing some writing in SignWriting and came across an issue that I never really thought of in the past. In ASL, scores can be done by placing the teams in a location and then giving the numbers of the score in that location. For example, I can have one team on the right and another on the left. If I sign 4 on the right and then 5 on the left, it clearly says who has what score. This is easily done using the lanes in SignWriting. >>>>>> >>>>>> The issue came into play when it was giving scores for ?my team? vs ?your team?. If I signed 4 near my chest and then 5 away from me, it would means ?I have 4 and you have 5.? When I tried to write this, I wrote the shoulder line over 4 and wrote 5 as I do normally. This didn?t really seem like an issue to me until I had a friend asked me how I knew that 5 was signed away from my body rather than just in the neutral location when signing 5 on its own. I had said I just assumed it, but that got me thinking if there was a simple way to write it so that it would be clear and didn?t have to be assumed. Is there? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Adam >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ____________ >>>>> >>>>> ________________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >>>> ________________________________________________ >>>> >>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ >>>> >>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >>> >>> ________________________________________________ >>> >>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>> >>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >> ________________________________________________ >> >> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >> >> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2021-04-20 at 9.05.46 PM.png Type: image/png Size: 24940 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: namesign.png Type: image/png Size: 440 bytes Desc: not available URL: From icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM Wed Apr 21 21:01:50 2021 From: icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM (Adam Frost) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 14:01:50 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: <528A7983-8BC4-47A2-AE7E-EAF76C977F34@signwriting.org> References: <2FC8FC1F-461B-4ED2-B726-8A332F4BD08A@gmail.com> <547AE4F1-07F4-4D1C-B694-A34A197D2144@signwriting.org> <2ABE1B97-D8D3-456B-861C-79390B5F7B91@gmail.com> <528A7983-8BC4-47A2-AE7E-EAF76C977F34@signwriting.org> Message-ID: Here is a quick clip. Adam > On Apr 21, 2021, at 1:52 PM, Valerie Sutton wrote: > > SignWriting List > April 20, 2021 > > Hi Adam - > Can you make a video showing us this please? Please post the video to our SignWriting List. You are welcome to post it in our SignWriting Channel on YouTube or directly to the List in email. Send us the video link and then I will place everyone?s writing side by side, plus I will try to write it too, and it will be fun to compare and discuss > > Thank you for the great discussion - > > Val ;-) > > ------------ > > > >> On Apr 20, 2021, at 9:06 PM, Adam Frost wrote: >> >> I tried to write the ?I have 5 and you have 4? phrase using the top view. I am not sure about the palm facing so I wrote it twice, but neither seem to be right for some reason. It could just be that I am not used to writing from the top view. ;-) >> >> >> >> >> Adam > > ?? > > > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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URL: From sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG Wed Apr 21 20:52:39 2021 From: sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG (Valerie Sutton) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 13:52:39 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: <2ABE1B97-D8D3-456B-861C-79390B5F7B91@gmail.com> References: <2FC8FC1F-461B-4ED2-B726-8A332F4BD08A@gmail.com> <547AE4F1-07F4-4D1C-B694-A34A197D2144@signwriting.org> <2ABE1B97-D8D3-456B-861C-79390B5F7B91@gmail.com> Message-ID: <528A7983-8BC4-47A2-AE7E-EAF76C977F34@signwriting.org> SignWriting List April 20, 2021 Hi Adam - Can you make a video showing us this please? Please post the video to our SignWriting List. You are welcome to post it in our SignWriting Channel on YouTube or directly to the List in email. Send us the video link and then I will place everyone?s writing side by side, plus I will try to write it too, and it will be fun to compare and discuss Thank you for the great discussion - Val ;-) ------------ > On Apr 20, 2021, at 9:06 PM, Adam Frost wrote: > > I tried to write the ?I have 5 and you have 4? phrase using the top view. I am not sure about the palm facing so I wrote it twice, but neither seem to be right for some reason. It could just be that I am not used to writing from the top view. ;-) > > > > > Adam > ?? ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2021-04-20 at 9.05.46 PM.png Type: image/png Size: 24940 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: namesign.png Type: image/png Size: 440 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PastedGraphic-2.tiff Type: image/tiff Size: 43058 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG Wed Apr 21 22:03:24 2021 From: sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG (Valerie Sutton) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 15:03:24 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: References: <2FC8FC1F-461B-4ED2-B726-8A332F4BD08A@gmail.com> <547AE4F1-07F4-4D1C-B694-A34A197D2144@signwriting.org> <2ABE1B97-D8D3-456B-861C-79390B5F7B91@gmail.com> <528A7983-8BC4-47A2-AE7E-EAF76C977F34@signwriting.org> Message-ID: <9ED6D1CC-4030-4BFC-BC57-850DC11B3218@signwriting.org> SignWriting List April 21, 2021 Hi Adam - Thank you for the video clip, of one hand moving forward. But your original posting was longer and more variety of signs and movements?(see attached diagram). Can you show us a video clip of all that is in the attached diagram? You establish National in the left lane and DB in the right lane, and so forth - can you sign the whole phrase for us? Many thanks... ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 843D0504-7CE2-4657-ADBA-FD6C5D3FEF8A.tiff Type: image/tiff Size: 43058 bytes Desc: not available URL: From icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM Wed Apr 21 23:29:35 2021 From: icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM (Adam Frost) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 16:29:35 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: <9ED6D1CC-4030-4BFC-BC57-850DC11B3218@signwriting.org> References: <2FC8FC1F-461B-4ED2-B726-8A332F4BD08A@gmail.com> <547AE4F1-07F4-4D1C-B694-A34A197D2144@signwriting.org> <2ABE1B97-D8D3-456B-861C-79390B5F7B91@gmail.com> <528A7983-8BC4-47A2-AE7E-EAF76C977F34@signwriting.org> <9ED6D1CC-4030-4BFC-BC57-850DC11B3218@signwriting.org> Message-ID: Ok. Here is that one. ;-) Adam > On Apr 21, 2021, at 3:03 PM, Valerie Sutton wrote: > > SignWriting List > April 21, 2021 > > Hi Adam - > Thank you for the video clip, of one hand moving forward. But your original posting was longer and more variety of signs and movements?(see attached diagram). Can you show us a video clip of all that is in the attached diagram? You establish National in the left lane and DB in the right lane, and so forth - can you sign the whole phrase for us? Many thanks... > > <843D0504-7CE2-4657-ADBA-FD6C5D3FEF8A.tiff> > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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URL: From 0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU Thu Apr 22 03:12:09 2021 From: 0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU (Valerie Sutton) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 20:12:09 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: References: <2FC8FC1F-461B-4ED2-B726-8A332F4BD08A@gmail.com> <547AE4F1-07F4-4D1C-B694-A34A197D2144@signwriting.org> <2ABE1B97-D8D3-456B-861C-79390B5F7B91@gmail.com> <528A7983-8BC4-47A2-AE7E-EAF76C977F34@signwriting.org> <9ED6D1CC-4030-4BFC-BC57-850DC11B3218@signwriting.org> Message-ID: Thank you, Adam! OK. I hope to read everyone?s writing of this, and post the comparison tomorrow, with an example of how I would write it - you all did an excellent job - just interesting to discuss the options - and then the issue of software and CSS styling strings vs the old way we used to write by hand - that I find interesting - writing depth used to be so easy by hand ... Talk to you tomorrow - thank you for your patience ;-) Val ;-) ----------- > On Apr 21, 2021, at 4:29 PM, Adam Frost wrote: > > Ok. Here is that one. ;-) > ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Video.MOV Type: video/quicktime Size: 3502830 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG Thu Apr 22 17:13:53 2021 From: sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG (Valerie Sutton) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 10:13:53 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: <2ABE1B97-D8D3-456B-861C-79390B5F7B91@gmail.com> References: <2FC8FC1F-461B-4ED2-B726-8A332F4BD08A@gmail.com> <547AE4F1-07F4-4D1C-B694-A34A197D2144@signwriting.org> <2ABE1B97-D8D3-456B-861C-79390B5F7B91@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7A9944EF-785F-473F-B14F-C7F86B39389F@SIGNWRITING.ORG> SignWrting List April 22, 2021 Hello Adam, Andre, Cherie, Kacio, Steve, Jonathan and everyone - Thank you for your messages and diagrams about "writing depth?. What wonderful messages you all posted, There are so many ways to write this... And thank you Adam, for the two videos posted yesterday. They helped me a lot ;-) As you know, the Top View can be mixed with the Front View. The Head in Top View establishes the ?depth? but the rest of the sign .. the hands, the movements ? can be written in the Front View, placed either near or far from the Head & body. It sounds crazy, but this combination of viewpoints seems to be working for readers. The Front View also works with the Shoulder Line. It is clear that the second handshape is ?far away? because of the Movement Arrow putting it there at the end of the movement. See diagram: And looking at the above diagram I can see other ways to write it too. So there are a variety of choices. For me, the Movement Arrow gives me the depth information, but if you do not want to use an arrow, then the old ?sizes? work very well. Originally SignWriting was designed to keep the writing ALL Front View, using "size of symbols" to write the depth perspective of ?far away?. Smaller symbols represented ?far away?. This would work well with video transcription, such as Amit Moryossef?s amazing software representation of a stick figure on a video: https://youtu.be/pCKRWSNIaNQ So originally, the general ?Movement Writing? system was designed without mixing viewpoints within one sign. I want to thank Steve Slevinski for his posting about CSS Styling strings and the fact that Steve?s styling strings make it possible in software to change the size of symbols, and thank you Steve, for SignMaker 2017 and thank you, Jonathan, for the Quick SignEditor programs that are implementing those styling strings right now. I am grateful for your efforts and I hope to use the size differences now to write a technical document about these issues. I am aware of the point, that Rich Text is great for individual documents or signs that can be captured in graphics so the information is not lost, but in an actual symbolset, the information of ?small? vs ?large? would be lost if it is just plain text. Nonetheless, I am glad to know I can access the smaller symbols in the two programs and I plan to use it for some demonstrations. I have more to share later - hope you all can get up from your computers and do some exercise - it is so easy to sit for hours without realizing we need to move too! Have a great day everyone - Val ;-) ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: Amit Moryossef.png Type: image/png Size: 134749 bytes Desc: not available URL: From icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM Thu Apr 22 19:16:15 2021 From: icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM (Adam Frost) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 12:16:15 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: <7A9944EF-785F-473F-B14F-C7F86B39389F@SIGNWRITING.ORG> References: <2FC8FC1F-461B-4ED2-B726-8A332F4BD08A@gmail.com> <547AE4F1-07F4-4D1C-B694-A34A197D2144@signwriting.org> <2ABE1B97-D8D3-456B-861C-79390B5F7B91@gmail.com> <7A9944EF-785F-473F-B14F-C7F86B39389F@SIGNWRITING.ORG> Message-ID: <1902965D-1E7A-4EE9-B818-B381B65336E6@gmail.com> > The Head in Top View establishes the ?depth? but the rest of the sign .. the hands, the movements ? can be written in the Front View, placed either near or far from the Head & body. Interesting. Something I wasn?t sure about since I don?t generally write with the Head in Top View. ;-) I just wasn?t sure if the sign should be read from the top view rather than the front view. But I can learn the ?rule? that it would be read from front view with the added information of depth. Now I wonder how this would have been written if the last sign ?5? wasn?t there, so as to say "I support the Diamondbacks and we have 4.? That would mean that there would be no movement to show depth for the first option. The shoulder line would just make it seem like the hand is at the height placed rather than depth. So it appears that the Head in Top View would be the best option. Is that correct? I agree that the sizing would be a nice way to show depth, but I can understand Steve?s point about that sort of information being easily lost. This reminds me of superscripts and subscripts. They aren?t generally used in everyday writing, but they are used in math and science, such as x2 and H2O. When written in plain text, they show as x2 and H2O. This even happens with 1st and 2nd being written as 1st and 2nd. I know that in the math case, plain text is often written as x^2 to show that it is superscripted. So I guess that would be like placing the head in top view to show depth in plain text and then using sizing to show it in rich text? An interesting thought. ;-) Now on a different tangent, could a fourth option (no including the sizing) be with this side view head? Would signs written with this be written to fit that view, or would they stay in Front View? Adam > On Apr 22, 2021, at 10:13 AM, Valerie Sutton wrote: > > SignWrting List > April 22, 2021 > > Hello Adam, Andre, Cherie, Kacio, Steve, Jonathan and everyone - > > Thank you for your messages and diagrams about "writing depth?. What wonderful messages you all posted, There are so many ways to write this... > > And thank you Adam, for the two videos posted yesterday. They helped me a lot ;-) > > As you know, the Top View can be mixed with the Front View. The Head in Top View establishes the ?depth? but the rest of the sign .. the hands, the movements ? can be written in the Front View, placed either near or far from the Head & body. It sounds crazy, but this combination of viewpoints seems to be working for readers. > > The Front View also works with the Shoulder Line. It is clear that the second handshape is ?far away? because of the Movement Arrow putting it there at the end of the movement. See diagram: > > <3 Ways To Write Depth v1.jpg> > > And looking at the above diagram I can see other ways to write it too. So there are a variety of choices. For me, the Movement Arrow gives me the depth information, but if you do not want to use an arrow, then the old ?sizes? work very well. > > Originally SignWriting was designed to keep the writing ALL Front View, using "size of symbols" to write the depth perspective of ?far away?. Smaller symbols represented ?far away?. > > > > > This would work well with video transcription, such as Amit Moryossef?s amazing software representation of a stick figure on a video: > > > > https://youtu.be/pCKRWSNIaNQ > > > So originally, the general ?Movement Writing? system was designed without mixing viewpoints within one sign. > > I want to thank Steve Slevinski for his posting about CSS Styling strings and the fact that Steve?s styling strings make it possible in software to change the size of symbols, and thank you Steve, for SignMaker 2017 and thank you, Jonathan, for the Quick SignEditor programs that are implementing those styling strings right now. I am grateful for your efforts and I hope to use the size differences now to write a technical document about these issues. > > I am aware of the point, that Rich Text is great for individual documents or signs that can be captured in graphics so the information is not lost, but in an actual symbolset, the information of ?small? vs ?large? would be lost if it is just plain text. > > Nonetheless, I am glad to know I can access the smaller symbols in the two programs and I plan to use it for some demonstrations. > > I have more to share later - hope you all can get up from your computers and do some exercise - it is so easy to sit for hours without realizing we need to move too! > > Have a great day everyone - > > Val ;-) > > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: namesign.png Type: image/png Size: 440 bytes Desc: not available URL: From 000000111c1a7803-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU Thu Apr 22 20:21:49 2021 From: 000000111c1a7803-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU (Cherie Wren) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 20:21:49 +0000 Subject: [Sw-l] [SPAM] Re: Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: <1902965D-1E7A-4EE9-B818-B381B65336E6@gmail.com> References: <2FC8FC1F-461B-4ED2-B726-8A332F4BD08A@gmail.com> <547AE4F1-07F4-4D1C-B694-A34A197D2144@signwriting.org> <2ABE1B97-D8D3-456B-861C-79390B5F7B91@gmail.com> <7A9944EF-785F-473F-B14F-C7F86B39389F@SIGNWRITING.ORG> <1902965D-1E7A-4EE9-B818-B381B65336E6@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1538615152.2892739.1619122909225@mail.yahoo.com> "Now I wonder how this would have been written if the last sign ?5? wasn?t there, so as to say "I support the Diamondbacks and we have 4.? That would mean that there would be no movement to show depth for the first option." I sign that usually one handed meaning I start with the 4 near my chest and move out to so the 5 is aiming at whoever supports that team. That way you have a movement arrow to show depth. On Thursday, April 22, 2021, 03:16:38 PM EDT, Adam Frost wrote: The Head in Top View establishes the ?depth? but the rest of the sign .. the hands, the movements ? can be written in the Front View, placed either near or far from the Head & body. Interesting. Something I wasn?t sure about since I don?t generally write with the Head in Top View. ;-) I just wasn?t sure if the sign should be read from the top view rather than the front view. But I can learn the ?rule? that it would be read from front view with the added information of depth. Now I wonder how this would have been written if the last sign ?5? wasn?t there, so as to say "I support the Diamondbacks and we have 4.? That would mean that there would be no movement to show depth for the first option. The shoulder line would just make it seem like the hand is at the height placed rather than depth. So it appears that the Head in Top View would be the best option. Is that correct? I agree that the sizing would be a nice way to show depth, but I can understand Steve?s point about that sort of information being easily lost. This reminds me of superscripts and subscripts. They aren?t generally used in everyday writing, but they are used in math and science, such as x2?and H2O. When written in plain text, they show as x2 and H2O. This even happens with?1st?and?2nd?being written as 1st and 2nd. I know that in the math case, plain text is often written as x^2 to show that it is superscripted. So I guess that would be like placing the head in top view to show depth in plain text and then using sizing to show it in rich text? An interesting thought. ;-) Now on a different tangent, could a fourth option (no including the sizing) be with this side view head???Would signs written with this be written to fit that view, or would they stay in Front View? Adam On Apr 22, 2021, at 10:13 AM, Valerie Sutton wrote: SignWrting ListApril 22, 2021 Hello Adam, Andre, Cherie, Kacio, Steve, Jonathan and everyone - Thank you for your messages and diagrams about "writing depth?. What wonderful messages you all posted, There are so many ways to write this... And thank you Adam, for the two videos posted yesterday. They helped me a lot ;-) As you know, the Top View can be mixed with the Front View. The Head in Top View establishes the ?depth? but the rest of the sign .. the hands, the movements ? can be written in the Front View, placed either near or far from the Head & body. It sounds crazy, but this combination of viewpoints seems to be working for readers. The Front View also works with the Shoulder Line. It is clear that the second handshape is ?far away? because of the Movement Arrow putting it there at the end of the movement. See diagram: <3 Ways To Write Depth v1.jpg> And looking at the above diagram I can see other ways to write it too. So there are a variety of choices. For me, the Movement Arrow gives me the depth information, but if you do not want to use an arrow, then the old ?sizes? work very well. Originally SignWriting was designed to keep the writing ALL Front View, using "size of symbols" to write the depth perspective of ?far away?. Smaller symbols represented ?far away?. This would work well with video transcription, such as Amit Moryossef?s amazing software representation of a stick figure on a video: https://youtu.be/pCKRWSNIaNQ So originally, the general ?Movement Writing? system was designed without mixing viewpoints within one sign.? I want to thank Steve Slevinski for his posting about CSS Styling strings and the fact that Steve?s styling strings make it possible in software to change the size of symbols, and thank you Steve, for?SignMaker 2017? and thank you, Jonathan, for the?Quick SignEditor?programs that are implementing those styling strings right now. I am grateful for your efforts and I hope to use the size differences now to write a technical document about these issues. I am aware of the point, that Rich Text is great for individual documents or signs that can be captured in graphics so the information is not lost, but in an actual symbolset, the information of ?small? vs ?large? would be lost if it is just plain text. Nonetheless, I am glad to know I can access the smaller symbols in the two programs and I plan to use it for some demonstrations. I have more to share later - hope you all can get up from your computers and do some exercise - it is so easy to sit for hours without realizing we need to move too! Have a great day everyone - Val ;-) ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie SuttonSignWriting List moderatorsutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List:sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Pagehttp://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messageshttp://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie SuttonSignWriting List moderatorsutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List:sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Pagehttp://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messageshttp://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: namesign.png Type: image/png Size: 440 bytes Desc: not available URL: From 000000111c1a7803-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU Thu Apr 22 20:24:11 2021 From: 000000111c1a7803-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU (Cherie Wren) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 20:24:11 +0000 Subject: [Sw-l] [SPAM] Re: Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: <7A9944EF-785F-473F-B14F-C7F86B39389F@SIGNWRITING.ORG> References: <2FC8FC1F-461B-4ED2-B726-8A332F4BD08A@gmail.com> <547AE4F1-07F4-4D1C-B694-A34A197D2144@signwriting.org> <2ABE1B97-D8D3-456B-861C-79390B5F7B91@gmail.com> <7A9944EF-785F-473F-B14F-C7F86B39389F@SIGNWRITING.ORG> Message-ID: <424934123.2887082.1619123051525@mail.yahoo.com> ooops, should have read all my emails before I replied.... :smile: On Thursday, April 22, 2021, 01:14:26 PM EDT, Valerie Sutton wrote: SignWrting ListApril 22, 2021 Hello Adam, Andre, Cherie, Kacio, Steve, Jonathan and everyone - Thank you for your messages and diagrams about "writing depth?. What wonderful messages you all posted, There are so many ways to write this... And thank you Adam, for the two videos posted yesterday. They helped me a lot ;-) As you know, the Top View can be mixed with the Front View. The Head in Top View establishes the ?depth? but the rest of the sign .. the hands, the movements ? can be written in the Front View, placed either near or far from the Head & body. It sounds crazy, but this combination of viewpoints seems to be working for readers. The Front View also works with the Shoulder Line. It is clear that the second handshape is ?far away? because of the Movement Arrow putting it there at the end of the movement. See diagram: And looking at the above diagram I can see other ways to write it too. So there are a variety of choices. For me, the Movement Arrow gives me the depth information, but if you do not want to use an arrow, then the old ?sizes? work very well. Originally SignWriting was designed to keep the writing ALL Front View, using "size of symbols" to write the depth perspective of ?far away?. Smaller symbols represented ?far away?. This would work well with video transcription, such as Amit Moryossef?s amazing software representation of a stick figure on a video: https://youtu.be/pCKRWSNIaNQ So originally, the general ?Movement Writing? system was designed without mixing viewpoints within one sign.? I want to thank Steve Slevinski for his posting about CSS Styling strings and the fact that Steve?s styling strings make it possible in software to change the size of symbols, and thank you Steve, for?SignMaker 2017? and thank you, Jonathan, for the?Quick SignEditor?programs that are implementing those styling strings right now. I am grateful for your efforts and I hope to use the size differences now to write a technical document about these issues. I am aware of the point, that Rich Text is great for individual documents or signs that can be captured in graphics so the information is not lost, but in an actual symbolset, the information of ?small? vs ?large? would be lost if it is just plain text. Nonetheless, I am glad to know I can access the smaller symbols in the two programs and I plan to use it for some demonstrations. I have more to share later - hope you all can get up from your computers and do some exercise - it is so easy to sit for hours without realizing we need to move too! Have a great day everyone - Val ;-) ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie SuttonSignWriting List moderatorsutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List:sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Pagehttp://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messageshttp://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: Amit Moryossef.png Type: image/png Size: 134749 bytes Desc: not available URL: From icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM Thu Apr 22 20:29:16 2021 From: icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM (Adam Frost) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 13:29:16 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] [SPAM] Re: Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: <424934123.2887082.1619123051525@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2FC8FC1F-461B-4ED2-B726-8A332F4BD08A@gmail.com> <547AE4F1-07F4-4D1C-B694-A34A197D2144@signwriting.org> <2ABE1B97-D8D3-456B-861C-79390B5F7B91@gmail.com> <7A9944EF-785F-473F-B14F-C7F86B39389F@SIGNWRITING.ORG> <424934123.2887082.1619123051525@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: It happens to the best of us. ;-) So I have a question for you. How would you write the same sentence without the ending with 5? There wouldn?t be any movement going outward to end with the 5. It would end with the 4 close to the chest. Conversely, how would you write the sentence if only the other teams score was given, with the 5 farther away? Adam > On Apr 22, 2021, at 1:24 PM, Cherie Wren <000000111c1a7803-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU> wrote: > > ooops, should have read all my emails before I replied.... :smile: > > On Thursday, April 22, 2021, 01:14:26 PM EDT, Valerie Sutton wrote: > > > SignWrting List > April 22, 2021 > > Hello Adam, Andre, Cherie, Kacio, Steve, Jonathan and everyone - > > Thank you for your messages and diagrams about "writing depth?. What wonderful messages you all posted, There are so many ways to write this... > > And thank you Adam, for the two videos posted yesterday. They helped me a lot ;-) > > As you know, the Top View can be mixed with the Front View. The Head in Top View establishes the ?depth? but the rest of the sign .. the hands, the movements ? can be written in the Front View, placed either near or far from the Head & body. It sounds crazy, but this combination of viewpoints seems to be working for readers. > > The Front View also works with the Shoulder Line. It is clear that the second handshape is ?far away? because of the Movement Arrow putting it there at the end of the movement. See diagram: > > <3 Ways To Write Depth v1.jpg> > > And looking at the above diagram I can see other ways to write it too. So there are a variety of choices. For me, the Movement Arrow gives me the depth information, but if you do not want to use an arrow, then the old ?sizes? work very well. > > Originally SignWriting was designed to keep the writing ALL Front View, using "size of symbols" to write the depth perspective of ?far away?. Smaller symbols represented ?far away?. > > > > > This would work well with video transcription, such as Amit Moryossef?s amazing software representation of a stick figure on a video: > > > > https://youtu.be/pCKRWSNIaNQ > > > So originally, the general ?Movement Writing? system was designed without mixing viewpoints within one sign. > > I want to thank Steve Slevinski for his posting about CSS Styling strings and the fact that Steve?s styling strings make it possible in software to change the size of symbols, and thank you Steve, for SignMaker 2017 and thank you, Jonathan, for the Quick SignEditor programs that are implementing those styling strings right now. I am grateful for your efforts and I hope to use the size differences now to write a technical document about these issues. > > I am aware of the point, that Rich Text is great for individual documents or signs that can be captured in graphics so the information is not lost, but in an actual symbolset, the information of ?small? vs ?large? would be lost if it is just plain text. > > Nonetheless, I am glad to know I can access the smaller symbols in the two programs and I plan to use it for some demonstrations. > > I have more to share later - hope you all can get up from your computers and do some exercise - it is so easy to sit for hours without realizing we need to move too! > > Have a great day everyone - > > Val ;-) > > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 <3 Ways To Write Depth v1.jpg> > ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: namesign.png Type: image/png Size: 440 bytes Desc: not available URL: From icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM Thu Apr 22 20:30:08 2021 From: icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM (Adam Frost) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 13:30:08 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: <7A9944EF-785F-473F-B14F-C7F86B39389F@SIGNWRITING.ORG> References: <2FC8FC1F-461B-4ED2-B726-8A332F4BD08A@gmail.com> <547AE4F1-07F4-4D1C-B694-A34A197D2144@signwriting.org> <2ABE1B97-D8D3-456B-861C-79390B5F7B91@gmail.com> <7A9944EF-785F-473F-B14F-C7F86B39389F@SIGNWRITING.ORG> Message-ID: <892F1D03-1305-45AC-A495-18967A86F08E@gmail.com> I?m not sure about this approach of showing depth as it uses symbols for a new purpose. It came about as I was explaining the idea of sizing to show depth to another writer. The idea is that the line under the sign is longer for signs that are closer and shorter for signs that are farther. One advantage is that it is simple while staying in Front View and doesn?t have the idea of being in Top View without actually switching to it. My guess is that this would only be necessary when signs are made in depth without traveling to get into that depth, which would be simple enough to show with movement arrows. If I recall correctly, the line under the sign has been purposed to be a way of marking proper names. By Stefan, I believe. I?ve never felt the need to include that type of information myself, but this might conflict with that idea. Hmm... Adam > On Apr 22, 2021, at 10:13 AM, Valerie Sutton wrote: > > SignWrting List > April 22, 2021 > > Hello Adam, Andre, Cherie, Kacio, Steve, Jonathan and everyone - > > Thank you for your messages and diagrams about "writing depth?. What wonderful messages you all posted, There are so many ways to write this... > > And thank you Adam, for the two videos posted yesterday. They helped me a lot ;-) > > As you know, the Top View can be mixed with the Front View. The Head in Top View establishes the ?depth? but the rest of the sign .. the hands, the movements ? can be written in the Front View, placed either near or far from the Head & body. It sounds crazy, but this combination of viewpoints seems to be working for readers. > > The Front View also works with the Shoulder Line. It is clear that the second handshape is ?far away? because of the Movement Arrow putting it there at the end of the movement. See diagram: > > <3 Ways To Write Depth v1.jpg> > > And looking at the above diagram I can see other ways to write it too. So there are a variety of choices. For me, the Movement Arrow gives me the depth information, but if you do not want to use an arrow, then the old ?sizes? work very well. > > Originally SignWriting was designed to keep the writing ALL Front View, using "size of symbols" to write the depth perspective of ?far away?. Smaller symbols represented ?far away?. > > > > > This would work well with video transcription, such as Amit Moryossef?s amazing software representation of a stick figure on a video: > > > > https://youtu.be/pCKRWSNIaNQ > > > So originally, the general ?Movement Writing? system was designed without mixing viewpoints within one sign. > > I want to thank Steve Slevinski for his posting about CSS Styling strings and the fact that Steve?s styling strings make it possible in software to change the size of symbols, and thank you Steve, for SignMaker 2017 and thank you, Jonathan, for the Quick SignEditor programs that are implementing those styling strings right now. I am grateful for your efforts and I hope to use the size differences now to write a technical document about these issues. > > I am aware of the point, that Rich Text is great for individual documents or signs that can be captured in graphics so the information is not lost, but in an actual symbolset, the information of ?small? vs ?large? would be lost if it is just plain text. > > Nonetheless, I am glad to know I can access the smaller symbols in the two programs and I plan to use it for some demonstrations. > > I have more to share later - hope you all can get up from your computers and do some exercise - it is so easy to sit for hours without realizing we need to move too! > > Have a great day everyone - > > Val ;-) > > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2021-04-22 at 1.07.23 PM.png Type: image/png Size: 40081 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: namesign.png Type: image/png Size: 440 bytes Desc: not available URL: From 000000111c1a7803-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU Thu Apr 22 20:41:22 2021 From: 000000111c1a7803-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU (Cherie Wren) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 20:41:22 +0000 Subject: [Sw-l] [SPAM] Re: Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: References: <2FC8FC1F-461B-4ED2-B726-8A332F4BD08A@gmail.com> <547AE4F1-07F4-4D1C-B694-A34A197D2144@signwriting.org> <2ABE1B97-D8D3-456B-861C-79390B5F7B91@gmail.com> <7A9944EF-785F-473F-B14F-C7F86B39389F@SIGNWRITING.ORG> <424934123.2887082.1619123051525@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <231888741.2899076.1619124082605@mail.yahoo.com> I'm trying to thing of a time I've used just one without the other.? If I am talking about one teams score without the other, then I would just place it midway in neutral space.? The only time I do the close/far is when I have two things to talk about.? What makes the close/far situation is that we are combining the numbers with other information.? "I support this team, you support that one, MY team scored 4, your team scored 5."? In English those would be separate utterances, but they can be combined visually in ASL.? The same way we set up people in space and then refer to that space instead of saying their name every time, like we have to do in English.? The use of space is an additional layer of meaning for this...? Does that make sense?? An example of layering that I use sometimes is translating the English, "There is a man over there!!"? Look at all them words!? In ASL it could be MAN signed with one hand and point with the other with a frightened/panicked look on the face. Not sure how I would write that... On Thursday, April 22, 2021, 04:29:37 PM EDT, Adam Frost wrote: It happens to the best of us. ;-) So I have a question for you. How would you write the same sentence without the ending with 5? There wouldn?t be any movement going outward to end with the 5. It would end with the 4 close to the chest. Conversely, how would you write the sentence if only the other teams score was given, with the 5 farther away? Adam On Apr 22, 2021, at 1:24 PM, Cherie Wren <000000111c1a7803-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU> wrote: ooops, should have read all my emails before I replied.... :smile: On Thursday, April 22, 2021, 01:14:26 PM EDT, Valerie Sutton wrote: SignWrting ListApril 22, 2021 Hello Adam, Andre, Cherie, Kacio, Steve, Jonathan and everyone - Thank you for your messages and diagrams about "writing depth?. What wonderful messages you all posted, There are so many ways to write this... And thank you Adam, for the two videos posted yesterday. They helped me a lot ;-) As you know, the Top View can be mixed with the Front View. The Head in Top View establishes the ?depth? but the rest of the sign .. the hands, the movements ? can be written in the Front View, placed either near or far from the Head & body. It sounds crazy, but this combination of viewpoints seems to be working for readers. The Front View also works with the Shoulder Line. It is clear that the second handshape is ?far away? because of the Movement Arrow putting it there at the end of the movement. See diagram: <3 Ways To Write Depth v1.jpg> And looking at the above diagram I can see other ways to write it too. So there are a variety of choices. For me, the Movement Arrow gives me the depth information, but if you do not want to use an arrow, then the old ?sizes? work very well. Originally SignWriting was designed to keep the writing ALL Front View, using "size of symbols" to write the depth perspective of ?far away?. Smaller symbols represented ?far away?. This would work well with video transcription, such as Amit Moryossef?s amazing software representation of a stick figure on a video: https://youtu.be/pCKRWSNIaNQ So originally, the general ?Movement Writing? system was designed without mixing viewpoints within one sign.? I want to thank Steve Slevinski for his posting about CSS Styling strings and the fact that Steve?s styling strings make it possible in software to change the size of symbols, and thank you Steve, for?SignMaker 2017? and thank you, Jonathan, for the?Quick SignEditor?programs that are implementing those styling strings right now. I am grateful for your efforts and I hope to use the size differences now to write a technical document about these issues. I am aware of the point, that Rich Text is great for individual documents or signs that can be captured in graphics so the information is not lost, but in an actual symbolset, the information of ?small? vs ?large? would be lost if it is just plain text. Nonetheless, I am glad to know I can access the smaller symbols in the two programs and I plan to use it for some demonstrations. I have more to share later - hope you all can get up from your computers and do some exercise - it is so easy to sit for hours without realizing we need to move too! Have a great day everyone - Val ;-) ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie SuttonSignWriting List moderatorsutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List:sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Pagehttp://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messageshttp://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie SuttonSignWriting List moderatorsutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List:sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Pagehttp://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messageshttp://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1<3 Ways To Write Depth v1.jpg> ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie SuttonSignWriting List moderatorsutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List:sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Pagehttp://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messageshttp://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: namesign.png Type: image/png Size: 440 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG Thu Apr 22 22:48:00 2021 From: sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG (Valerie Sutton) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 15:48:00 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: <892F1D03-1305-45AC-A495-18967A86F08E@gmail.com> References: <2FC8FC1F-461B-4ED2-B726-8A332F4BD08A@gmail.com> <547AE4F1-07F4-4D1C-B694-A34A197D2144@signwriting.org> <2ABE1B97-D8D3-456B-861C-79390B5F7B91@gmail.com> <7A9944EF-785F-473F-B14F-C7F86B39389F@SIGNWRITING.ORG> <892F1D03-1305-45AC-A495-18967A86F08E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <642BCB12-F731-432C-A906-C6E6AEE52B6E@signwriting.org> SignWriting List April 22, 2021 I love this discussion on viewpoints. Back when we were first developing Movement Writing in the 1970?s, I was hopeful we could give the writer a choice of several viewpoints depending on the need of the document, and that all symbols could be used interchangeably from viewpoint to viewpoint. Expressive Viewpoint won because writers expressed that they wanted that viewpoint more than any other. But Receptive is also a fully-developed viewpoint that might be useful for some computer video graphics since when we watch videos we are facing the signer, not standing behind the signer like in Expressive. The Side Wall, Diagonal and Top Views are only partially developed. The Top View is used, as Kacio said, when there is an occasional need for clarity. If we really had a fully-developed Top View, then the Index Finger, for the number 1 in ASL, would be a dot for viewing the fingertip pointing to the ceiling, since the reader is sitting on the ceiling looking down at the signers head ;-) I don?t think most people would want to think of all the fingertips as dots as they are pointing to the ceiling! That is why using the Head Top View as a marker, and then the rest of the writing in the standard Expressive, is much better and it shows depth very well. The Movement Arrows work best for me, if you do not want to use the Top View of the Head. Regarding your lines - the reason that feels good, I assume, is that the longer one is like a Horizon Line, which we use for some Movement Symbols that curve towards the Horizon, which is far away. The 4-hand is further away and therefore hitting the Horizon. Notice how the lines you have placed in this example, are using longer and shorter sizes ;-). So size is still being used? And yes, Stefan Woehrmann developed a way to teach proper names to his Deaf students. Any sign that had an underline was the name of a person I believe - or maybe a proper noun? Is that correct, Stefan? Anyway, thanks for the ideas and thank you for the discussion - Val ;-) ------------ > On Apr 22, 2021, at 1:30 PM, Adam Frost wrote: > > I?m not sure about this approach of showing depth as it uses symbols for a new purpose. It came about as I was explaining the idea of sizing to show depth to another writer. The idea is that the line under the sign is longer for signs that are closer and shorter for signs that are farther. One advantage is that it is simple while staying in Front View and doesn?t have the idea of being in Top View without actually switching to it. My guess is that this would only be necessary when signs are made in depth without traveling to get into that depth, which would be simple enough to show with movement arrows. > > > > If I recall correctly, the line under the sign has been purposed to be a way of marking proper names. By Stefan, I believe. I?ve never felt the need to include that type of information myself, but this might conflict with that idea. Hmm... > > > Adam > >> On Apr 22, 2021, at 10:13 AM, Valerie Sutton > wrote: >> >> SignWrting List >> April 22, 2021 >> >> Hello Adam, Andre, Cherie, Kacio, Steve, Jonathan and everyone - >> >> Thank you for your messages and diagrams about "writing depth?. What wonderful messages you all posted, There are so many ways to write this... >> >> And thank you Adam, for the two videos posted yesterday. They helped me a lot ;-) >> >> As you know, the Top View can be mixed with the Front View. The Head in Top View establishes the ?depth? but the rest of the sign .. the hands, the movements ? can be written in the Front View, placed either near or far from the Head & body. It sounds crazy, but this combination of viewpoints seems to be working for readers. >> >> The Front View also works with the Shoulder Line. It is clear that the second handshape is ?far away? because of the Movement Arrow putting it there at the end of the movement. See diagram: >> >> <3 Ways To Write Depth v1.jpg> >> >> And looking at the above diagram I can see other ways to write it too. So there are a variety of choices. For me, the Movement Arrow gives me the depth information, but if you do not want to use an arrow, then the old ?sizes? work very well. >> >> Originally SignWriting was designed to keep the writing ALL Front View, using "size of symbols" to write the depth perspective of ?far away?. Smaller symbols represented ?far away?. >> >> >> >> >> This would work well with video transcription, such as Amit Moryossef?s amazing software representation of a stick figure on a video: >> >> >> >> https://youtu.be/pCKRWSNIaNQ >> >> >> So originally, the general ?Movement Writing? system was designed without mixing viewpoints within one sign. >> >> I want to thank Steve Slevinski for his posting about CSS Styling strings and the fact that Steve?s styling strings make it possible in software to change the size of symbols, and thank you Steve, for SignMaker 2017 and thank you, Jonathan, for the Quick SignEditor programs that are implementing those styling strings right now. I am grateful for your efforts and I hope to use the size differences now to write a technical document about these issues. >> >> I am aware of the point, that Rich Text is great for individual documents or signs that can be captured in graphics so the information is not lost, but in an actual symbolset, the information of ?small? vs ?large? would be lost if it is just plain text. >> >> Nonetheless, I am glad to know I can access the smaller symbols in the two programs and I plan to use it for some demonstrations. >> >> I have more to share later - hope you all can get up from your computers and do some exercise - it is so easy to sit for hours without realizing we need to move too! >> >> Have a great day everyone - >> >> Val ;-) >> >> ________________________________________________ >> >> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >> >> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2021-04-22 at 1.07.23 PM.png Type: image/png Size: 40081 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: namesign.png Type: image/png Size: 440 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sutton at DANCEWRITING.ORG Thu Apr 22 22:59:03 2021 From: sutton at DANCEWRITING.ORG (Valerie Sutton) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 15:59:03 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] [SPAM] Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: <231888741.2899076.1619124082605@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2FC8FC1F-461B-4ED2-B726-8A332F4BD08A@gmail.com> <547AE4F1-07F4-4D1C-B694-A34A197D2144@signwriting.org> <2ABE1B97-D8D3-456B-861C-79390B5F7B91@gmail.com> <7A9944EF-785F-473F-B14F-C7F86B39389F@SIGNWRITING.ORG> <424934123.2887082.1619123051525@mail.yahoo.com> <231888741.2899076.1619124082605@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <31764764-65FA-4376-B064-952D2676E7C0@dancewriting.org> SignWriting List April 22, 2021 Thanks for your emails Cherie - it is really great to hear from you. I think I see your point, which I too have thought about. Maybe the Movement Arrows moving the 5 Hand into the 4 Hand could not be used to show depth, if both hands are ?placed in space?, almost like a classifier, without the movement in-between - that kind of situation, where a movment between the two hands cannot be used, does really feel like it needs two sizes? like ?setting up? two people in space - one far away and one closer - that would not use Movement Arrows - then maybe the Top View is necessary and placing the two people in space is one sign where both hands arrive at their destination at the same time - one far from the Tope View Head and one close to the body - So Adam is this where you would use the two lines? I am going to search for an old document I have on writing classifiers that were a little like this - but we were using sizes - Thanks again - and have a great evening - Val ;-) ---------- > On Apr 22, 2021, at 1:41 PM, Cherie Wren <000000111c1a7803-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU> wrote: > > I'm trying to thing of a time I've used just one without the other. If I am talking about one teams score without the other, then I would just place it midway in neutral space. The only time I do the close/far is when I have two things to talk about. What makes the close/far situation is that we are combining the numbers with other information. "I support this team, you support that one, MY team scored 4, your team scored 5." In English those would be separate utterances, but they can be combined visually in ASL. The same way we set up people in space and then refer to that space instead of saying their name every time, like we have to do in English. The use of space is an additional layer of meaning for this... Does that make sense? An example of layering that I use sometimes is translating the English, "There is a man over there!!" Look at all them words! In ASL it could be MAN signed with one hand and point with the other with a frightened/panicked look on the face. Not sure how I would write that... > > On Thursday, April 22, 2021, 04:29:37 PM EDT, Adam Frost wrote: > > > It happens to the best of us. ;-) > > So I have a question for you. How would you write the same sentence without the ending with 5? There wouldn?t be any movement going outward to end with the 5. It would end with the 4 close to the chest. > > Conversely, how would you write the sentence if only the other teams score was given, with the 5 farther away? > > > Adam > >> On Apr 22, 2021, at 1:24 PM, Cherie Wren <000000111c1a7803-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU > wrote: >> >> ooops, should have read all my emails before I replied.... :smile: >> >> On Thursday, April 22, 2021, 01:14:26 PM EDT, Valerie Sutton > wrote: >> >> >> SignWrting List >> April 22, 2021 >> >> Hello Adam, Andre, Cherie, Kacio, Steve, Jonathan and everyone - >> >> Thank you for your messages and diagrams about "writing depth?. What wonderful messages you all posted, There are so many ways to write this... >> >> And thank you Adam, for the two videos posted yesterday. They helped me a lot ;-) >> >> As you know, the Top View can be mixed with the Front View. The Head in Top View establishes the ?depth? but the rest of the sign .. the hands, the movements ? can be written in the Front View, placed either near or far from the Head & body. It sounds crazy, but this combination of viewpoints seems to be working for readers. >> >> The Front View also works with the Shoulder Line. It is clear that the second handshape is ?far away? because of the Movement Arrow putting it there at the end of the movement. See diagram: >> >> <3 Ways To Write Depth v1.jpg> >> >> And looking at the above diagram I can see other ways to write it too. So there are a variety of choices. For me, the Movement Arrow gives me the depth information, but if you do not want to use an arrow, then the old ?sizes? work very well. >> >> Originally SignWriting was designed to keep the writing ALL Front View, using "size of symbols" to write the depth perspective of ?far away?. Smaller symbols represented ?far away?. >> >> >> >> >> This would work well with video transcription, such as Amit Moryossef?s amazing software representation of a stick figure on a video: >> >> >> >> https://youtu.be/pCKRWSNIaNQ >> >> >> So originally, the general ?Movement Writing? system was designed without mixing viewpoints within one sign. >> >> I want to thank Steve Slevinski for his posting about CSS Styling strings and the fact that Steve?s styling strings make it possible in software to change the size of symbols, and thank you Steve, for SignMaker 2017 and thank you, Jonathan, for the Quick SignEditor programs that are implementing those styling strings right now. I am grateful for your efforts and I hope to use the size differences now to write a technical document about these issues. >> >> I am aware of the point, that Rich Text is great for individual documents or signs that can be captured in graphics so the information is not lost, but in an actual symbolset, the information of ?small? vs ?large? would be lost if it is just plain text. >> >> Nonetheless, I am glad to know I can access the smaller symbols in the two programs and I plan to use it for some demonstrations. >> >> I have more to share later - hope you all can get up from your computers and do some exercise - it is so easy to sit for hours without realizing we need to move too! >> >> Have a great day everyone - >> >> Val ;-) >> >> ________________________________________________ >> >> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >> >> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ >> >> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >> >> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 <3 Ways To Write Depth v1.jpg> >> > > > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM Thu Apr 22 23:13:57 2021 From: icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM (Adam Frost) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 16:13:57 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] [SPAM] Re: Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: <231888741.2899076.1619124082605@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2FC8FC1F-461B-4ED2-B726-8A332F4BD08A@gmail.com> <547AE4F1-07F4-4D1C-B694-A34A197D2144@signwriting.org> <2ABE1B97-D8D3-456B-861C-79390B5F7B91@gmail.com> <7A9944EF-785F-473F-B14F-C7F86B39389F@SIGNWRITING.ORG> <424934123.2887082.1619123051525@mail.yahoo.com> <231888741.2899076.1619124082605@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I agree that this doesn?t happen often. The one time I can think of (within the realm of giving sports scores) is when giving an update of a team?s score after they just scored. ?Now they have 7?, would just be signed with 7 at the distance. I suspect that there are other cases when it could happen. ;-) I just tried writing your description of ?THERE'S A MAN OVER THERE!? And I didn?t feel the need to have depth written. What do you think? Adam > On Apr 22, 2021, at 1:41 PM, Cherie Wren <000000111c1a7803-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU> wrote: > > I'm trying to thing of a time I've used just one without the other. If I am talking about one teams score without the other, then I would just place it midway in neutral space. The only time I do the close/far is when I have two things to talk about. What makes the close/far situation is that we are combining the numbers with other information. "I support this team, you support that one, MY team scored 4, your team scored 5." In English those would be separate utterances, but they can be combined visually in ASL. The same way we set up people in space and then refer to that space instead of saying their name every time, like we have to do in English. The use of space is an additional layer of meaning for this... Does that make sense? An example of layering that I use sometimes is translating the English, "There is a man over there!!" Look at all them words! In ASL it could be MAN signed with one hand and point with the other with a frightened/panicked look on the face. Not sure how I would write that... > > On Thursday, April 22, 2021, 04:29:37 PM EDT, Adam Frost wrote: > > > It happens to the best of us. ;-) > > So I have a question for you. How would you write the same sentence without the ending with 5? There wouldn?t be any movement going outward to end with the 5. It would end with the 4 close to the chest. > > Conversely, how would you write the sentence if only the other teams score was given, with the 5 farther away? > > > Adam > >> On Apr 22, 2021, at 1:24 PM, Cherie Wren <000000111c1a7803-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU > wrote: >> >> ooops, should have read all my emails before I replied.... :smile: >> >> On Thursday, April 22, 2021, 01:14:26 PM EDT, Valerie Sutton > wrote: >> >> >> SignWrting List >> April 22, 2021 >> >> Hello Adam, Andre, Cherie, Kacio, Steve, Jonathan and everyone - >> >> Thank you for your messages and diagrams about "writing depth?. What wonderful messages you all posted, There are so many ways to write this... >> >> And thank you Adam, for the two videos posted yesterday. They helped me a lot ;-) >> >> As you know, the Top View can be mixed with the Front View. The Head in Top View establishes the ?depth? but the rest of the sign .. the hands, the movements ? can be written in the Front View, placed either near or far from the Head & body. It sounds crazy, but this combination of viewpoints seems to be working for readers. >> >> The Front View also works with the Shoulder Line. It is clear that the second handshape is ?far away? because of the Movement Arrow putting it there at the end of the movement. See diagram: >> >> <3 Ways To Write Depth v1.jpg> >> >> And looking at the above diagram I can see other ways to write it too. So there are a variety of choices. For me, the Movement Arrow gives me the depth information, but if you do not want to use an arrow, then the old ?sizes? work very well. >> >> Originally SignWriting was designed to keep the writing ALL Front View, using "size of symbols" to write the depth perspective of ?far away?. Smaller symbols represented ?far away?. >> >> >> >> >> This would work well with video transcription, such as Amit Moryossef?s amazing software representation of a stick figure on a video: >> >> >> >> https://youtu.be/pCKRWSNIaNQ >> >> >> So originally, the general ?Movement Writing? system was designed without mixing viewpoints within one sign. >> >> I want to thank Steve Slevinski for his posting about CSS Styling strings and the fact that Steve?s styling strings make it possible in software to change the size of symbols, and thank you Steve, for SignMaker 2017 and thank you, Jonathan, for the Quick SignEditor programs that are implementing those styling strings right now. I am grateful for your efforts and I hope to use the size differences now to write a technical document about these issues. >> >> I am aware of the point, that Rich Text is great for individual documents or signs that can be captured in graphics so the information is not lost, but in an actual symbolset, the information of ?small? vs ?large? would be lost if it is just plain text. >> >> Nonetheless, I am glad to know I can access the smaller symbols in the two programs and I plan to use it for some demonstrations. >> >> I have more to share later - hope you all can get up from your computers and do some exercise - it is so easy to sit for hours without realizing we need to move too! >> >> Have a great day everyone - >> >> Val ;-) >> >> ________________________________________________ >> >> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >> >> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ >> >> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >> >> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 <3 Ways To Write Depth v1.jpg> >> > > > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: namesign.png Type: image/png Size: 440 bytes Desc: not available URL: From icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM Thu Apr 22 23:32:23 2021 From: icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM (Adam Frost) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 16:32:23 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] [SPAM] Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: <31764764-65FA-4376-B064-952D2676E7C0@dancewriting.org> References: <2FC8FC1F-461B-4ED2-B726-8A332F4BD08A@gmail.com> <547AE4F1-07F4-4D1C-B694-A34A197D2144@signwriting.org> <2ABE1B97-D8D3-456B-861C-79390B5F7B91@gmail.com> <7A9944EF-785F-473F-B14F-C7F86B39389F@SIGNWRITING.ORG> <424934123.2887082.1619123051525@mail.yahoo.com> <231888741.2899076.1619124082605@mail.yahoo.com> <31764764-65FA-4376-B064-952D2676E7C0@dancewriting.org> Message-ID: That is actually an interesting thought about the placement of two people in space. I hadn?t really thought of trying the lines that way, although I don?t see why it couldn?t be used in that way. This is probably how I would have tried writing that concept without changing view points before the line being used. It doesn?t tell how far they are apart or even that they are on the same level with one in front of the other rather than one above the other. However, if I used the lines, it might look like this. Kind of interesting how there is the possibility of detailing how much distance is between this way. Much like the Top View as well. I am not sure if this is ?the? solution in the cases when this might be necessary, but I could actually see it being possible. Still letting it marinate for the movement. ;-) Adam > On Apr 22, 2021, at 3:59 PM, Valerie Sutton wrote: > > SignWriting List > April 22, 2021 > > Thanks for your emails Cherie - it is really great to hear from you. > > I think I see your point, which I too have thought about. Maybe the Movement Arrows moving the 5 Hand into the 4 Hand could not be used to show depth, if both hands are ?placed in space?, almost like a classifier, without the movement in-between - that kind of situation, where a movment between the two hands cannot be used, does really feel like it needs two sizes? like ?setting up? two people in space - one far away and one closer - that would not use Movement Arrows - then maybe the Top View is necessary and placing the two people in space is one sign where both hands arrive at their destination at the same time - one far from the Tope View Head and one close to the body - > > So Adam is this where you would use the two lines? > > I am going to search for an old document I have on writing classifiers that were a little like this - but we were using sizes - > > Thanks again - and have a great evening - > > Val ;-) > > ---------- > > > >> On Apr 22, 2021, at 1:41 PM, Cherie Wren <000000111c1a7803-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU > wrote: >> >> I'm trying to thing of a time I've used just one without the other. If I am talking about one teams score without the other, then I would just place it midway in neutral space. The only time I do the close/far is when I have two things to talk about. What makes the close/far situation is that we are combining the numbers with other information. "I support this team, you support that one, MY team scored 4, your team scored 5." In English those would be separate utterances, but they can be combined visually in ASL. The same way we set up people in space and then refer to that space instead of saying their name every time, like we have to do in English. The use of space is an additional layer of meaning for this... Does that make sense? An example of layering that I use sometimes is translating the English, "There is a man over there!!" Look at all them words! In ASL it could be MAN signed with one hand and point with the other with a frightened/panicked look on the face. Not sure how I would write that... >> >> On Thursday, April 22, 2021, 04:29:37 PM EDT, Adam Frost > wrote: >> >> >> It happens to the best of us. ;-) >> >> So I have a question for you. How would you write the same sentence without the ending with 5? There wouldn?t be any movement going outward to end with the 5. It would end with the 4 close to the chest. >> >> Conversely, how would you write the sentence if only the other teams score was given, with the 5 farther away? >> >> >> Adam >> >>> On Apr 22, 2021, at 1:24 PM, Cherie Wren <000000111c1a7803-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU > wrote: >>> >>> ooops, should have read all my emails before I replied.... :smile: >>> >>> On Thursday, April 22, 2021, 01:14:26 PM EDT, Valerie Sutton > wrote: >>> >>> >>> SignWrting List >>> April 22, 2021 >>> >>> Hello Adam, Andre, Cherie, Kacio, Steve, Jonathan and everyone - >>> >>> Thank you for your messages and diagrams about "writing depth?. What wonderful messages you all posted, There are so many ways to write this... >>> >>> And thank you Adam, for the two videos posted yesterday. They helped me a lot ;-) >>> >>> As you know, the Top View can be mixed with the Front View. The Head in Top View establishes the ?depth? but the rest of the sign .. the hands, the movements ? can be written in the Front View, placed either near or far from the Head & body. It sounds crazy, but this combination of viewpoints seems to be working for readers. >>> >>> The Front View also works with the Shoulder Line. It is clear that the second handshape is ?far away? because of the Movement Arrow putting it there at the end of the movement. See diagram: >>> >>> <3 Ways To Write Depth v1.jpg> >>> >>> And looking at the above diagram I can see other ways to write it too. So there are a variety of choices. For me, the Movement Arrow gives me the depth information, but if you do not want to use an arrow, then the old ?sizes? work very well. >>> >>> Originally SignWriting was designed to keep the writing ALL Front View, using "size of symbols" to write the depth perspective of ?far away?. Smaller symbols represented ?far away?. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> This would work well with video transcription, such as Amit Moryossef?s amazing software representation of a stick figure on a video: >>> >>> >>> >>> https://youtu.be/pCKRWSNIaNQ >>> >>> >>> So originally, the general ?Movement Writing? system was designed without mixing viewpoints within one sign. >>> >>> I want to thank Steve Slevinski for his posting about CSS Styling strings and the fact that Steve?s styling strings make it possible in software to change the size of symbols, and thank you Steve, for SignMaker 2017 and thank you, Jonathan, for the Quick SignEditor programs that are implementing those styling strings right now. I am grateful for your efforts and I hope to use the size differences now to write a technical document about these issues. >>> >>> I am aware of the point, that Rich Text is great for individual documents or signs that can be captured in graphics so the information is not lost, but in an actual symbolset, the information of ?small? vs ?large? would be lost if it is just plain text. >>> >>> Nonetheless, I am glad to know I can access the smaller symbols in the two programs and I plan to use it for some demonstrations. >>> >>> I have more to share later - hope you all can get up from your computers and do some exercise - it is so easy to sit for hours without realizing we need to move too! >>> >>> Have a great day everyone - >>> >>> Val ;-) >>> >>> ________________________________________________ >>> >>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>> >>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ >>> >>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>> >>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 <3 Ways To Write Depth v1.jpg> >>> >> >> >> ________________________________________________ >> >> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >> >> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ >> >> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >> >> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >> > > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: namesign.png Type: image/png Size: 440 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG Fri Apr 23 14:02:04 2021 From: sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG (Valerie Sutton) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 07:02:04 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] Book Gazette Spring 2021 References: <20210317143239.5780240DFA78C@mail.benjamins.nl> Message-ID: <97095962-968A-4BB9-A499-7BAB6B3CE563@signwriting.org> SignWriting List April 23, 2021 > From: John Benjamins Publishing - Marketing dept. > Subject: Book Gazette Spring 2021 > Date: March 17, 2021 at 7:32:39 AM PDT > Due to the COVID-19 pandemic the postal services are under great pressure and suffer delays worldwide. Therefore we have decided to spread the latest Book Gazette both by post and email this time. You can find the link to the PDF version here: > > https://benjamins.com/downloads/catalogs/bg.2021.spring.usd.pdf > Our monthly e-newsletter also provides the link to the latest Book Gazette twice a year: benjamins.com/newsletter > We hope you will enjoy browsing the contents and we thank you for your interest and commitment. > > With best regards, and keep safe! > > John Benjamins Publishing Company > Marketing Department > > https://benjamins.com > info at benjamins.nl > Tel: +31.20.6304747 > ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG Fri Apr 23 14:13:56 2021 From: sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG (Valerie Sutton) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 07:13:56 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: References: <2FC8FC1F-461B-4ED2-B726-8A332F4BD08A@gmail.com> <547AE4F1-07F4-4D1C-B694-A34A197D2144@signwriting.org> <2ABE1B97-D8D3-456B-861C-79390B5F7B91@gmail.com> <7A9944EF-785F-473F-B14F-C7F86B39389F@SIGNWRITING.ORG> <424934123.2887082.1619123051525@mail.yahoo.com> <231888741.2899076.1619124082605@mail.yahoo.com> <31764764-65FA-4376-B064-952D2676E7C0@dancewriting.org> Message-ID: <0A386363-75E9-4079-B3FE-C9936E60D3DF@signwriting.org> SignWriting List April 23, 2021 Actually, Adam, the lines you show in this email, with the longer one closer to the chest, feels like the concept of the Raked Stage, which our Movement Writing system was built on. Back in 1974 in Denmark I was teaching a troupe of ballet dancers DanceWriting, in Tivoli Gardens during the summer, and we would congregate for the class I was teaching on the stage that they would perform on, that evening. And the very old stage at Tivoli Gardens was hundreds of years old, and it was ?raked?, meaning slanted down towards the audience. So I was sitting in the front seat of the audience looking at the dancers on stage, and the slant brought them closer to me in the audience. So the writing system was designed to write on a Raked Stage, so that the reader, in the audience, sees anything closer to the reader a little larger on a slant. So you followed that theme perfectly with your invention of the longer line being ?closer to the reader?s chest?. So I really like this for ?positions? of one hand close and one hand far, both ?placed? in those positions. But, if there is a movement between them, and this is all the right hand and it is not a right hand close and a left hand far - then I need a Movement Arrow. How can I know which position started the movement without an arrow? Did you start in the back or did you start in the front? So for positioning or placing two hands for depth I love the ?Depth Lines? if they are different hands - Those are my thoughts ;-) Thank you for working on this - Thanks for the Depth Lines! Val ;-) ??? > On Apr 22, 2021, at 4:32 PM, Adam Frost wrote: > > That is actually an interesting thought about the placement of two people in space. I hadn?t really thought of trying the lines that way, although I don?t see why it couldn?t be used in that way. > > This is probably how I would have tried writing that concept without changing view points before the line being used. > > > > It doesn?t tell how far they are apart or even that they are on the same level with one in front of the other rather than one above the other. However, if I used the lines, it might look like this. > > > > Kind of interesting how there is the possibility of detailing how much distance is between this way. Much like the Top View as well. > > I am not sure if this is ?the? solution in the cases when this might be necessary, but I could actually see it being possible. Still letting it marinate for the movement. ;-) > > > Adam > >> On Apr 22, 2021, at 3:59 PM, Valerie Sutton > wrote: >> >> SignWriting List >> April 22, 2021 >> >> Thanks for your emails Cherie - it is really great to hear from you. >> >> I think I see your point, which I too have thought about. Maybe the Movement Arrows moving the 5 Hand into the 4 Hand could not be used to show depth, if both hands are ?placed in space?, almost like a classifier, without the movement in-between - that kind of situation, where a movment between the two hands cannot be used, does really feel like it needs two sizes? like ?setting up? two people in space - one far away and one closer - that would not use Movement Arrows - then maybe the Top View is necessary and placing the two people in space is one sign where both hands arrive at their destination at the same time - one far from the Tope View Head and one close to the body - >> >> So Adam is this where you would use the two lines? >> >> I am going to search for an old document I have on writing classifiers that were a little like this - but we were using sizes - >> >> Thanks again - and have a great evening - >> >> Val ;-) >> >> ---------- >> >> >> >>> On Apr 22, 2021, at 1:41 PM, Cherie Wren <000000111c1a7803-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU > wrote: >>> >>> I'm trying to thing of a time I've used just one without the other. If I am talking about one teams score without the other, then I would just place it midway in neutral space. The only time I do the close/far is when I have two things to talk about. What makes the close/far situation is that we are combining the numbers with other information. "I support this team, you support that one, MY team scored 4, your team scored 5." In English those would be separate utterances, but they can be combined visually in ASL. The same way we set up people in space and then refer to that space instead of saying their name every time, like we have to do in English. The use of space is an additional layer of meaning for this... Does that make sense? An example of layering that I use sometimes is translating the English, "There is a man over there!!" Look at all them words! In ASL it could be MAN signed with one hand and point with the other with a frightened/panicked look on the face. Not sure how I would write that... >>> >>> On Thursday, April 22, 2021, 04:29:37 PM EDT, Adam Frost > wrote: >>> >>> >>> It happens to the best of us. ;-) >>> >>> So I have a question for you. How would you write the same sentence without the ending with 5? There wouldn?t be any movement going outward to end with the 5. It would end with the 4 close to the chest. >>> >>> Conversely, how would you write the sentence if only the other teams score was given, with the 5 farther away? >>> >>> >>> Adam >>> >>>> On Apr 22, 2021, at 1:24 PM, Cherie Wren <000000111c1a7803-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU > wrote: >>>> >>>> ooops, should have read all my emails before I replied.... :smile: >>>> >>>> On Thursday, April 22, 2021, 01:14:26 PM EDT, Valerie Sutton > wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> SignWrting List >>>> April 22, 2021 >>>> >>>> Hello Adam, Andre, Cherie, Kacio, Steve, Jonathan and everyone - >>>> >>>> Thank you for your messages and diagrams about "writing depth?. What wonderful messages you all posted, There are so many ways to write this... >>>> >>>> And thank you Adam, for the two videos posted yesterday. They helped me a lot ;-) >>>> >>>> As you know, the Top View can be mixed with the Front View. The Head in Top View establishes the ?depth? but the rest of the sign .. the hands, the movements ? can be written in the Front View, placed either near or far from the Head & body. It sounds crazy, but this combination of viewpoints seems to be working for readers. >>>> >>>> The Front View also works with the Shoulder Line. It is clear that the second handshape is ?far away? because of the Movement Arrow putting it there at the end of the movement. See diagram: >>>> >>>> <3 Ways To Write Depth v1.jpg> >>>> >>>> And looking at the above diagram I can see other ways to write it too. So there are a variety of choices. For me, the Movement Arrow gives me the depth information, but if you do not want to use an arrow, then the old ?sizes? work very well. >>>> >>>> Originally SignWriting was designed to keep the writing ALL Front View, using "size of symbols" to write the depth perspective of ?far away?. Smaller symbols represented ?far away?. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> This would work well with video transcription, such as Amit Moryossef?s amazing software representation of a stick figure on a video: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> https://youtu.be/pCKRWSNIaNQ >>>> >>>> >>>> So originally, the general ?Movement Writing? system was designed without mixing viewpoints within one sign. >>>> >>>> I want to thank Steve Slevinski for his posting about CSS Styling strings and the fact that Steve?s styling strings make it possible in software to change the size of symbols, and thank you Steve, for SignMaker 2017 and thank you, Jonathan, for the Quick SignEditor programs that are implementing those styling strings right now. I am grateful for your efforts and I hope to use the size differences now to write a technical document about these issues. >>>> >>>> I am aware of the point, that Rich Text is great for individual documents or signs that can be captured in graphics so the information is not lost, but in an actual symbolset, the information of ?small? vs ?large? would be lost if it is just plain text. >>>> >>>> Nonetheless, I am glad to know I can access the smaller symbols in the two programs and I plan to use it for some demonstrations. >>>> >>>> I have more to share later - hope you all can get up from your computers and do some exercise - it is so easy to sit for hours without realizing we need to move too! >>>> >>>> Have a great day everyone - >>>> >>>> Val ;-) >>>> >>>> ________________________________________________ >>>> >>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>>> >>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ >>>> >>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>>> >>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 <3 Ways To Write Depth v1.jpg> >>>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________________________ >>> >>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>> >>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ >>> >>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>> >>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >>> >> >> ________________________________________________ >> >> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >> >> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: namesign.png Type: image/png Size: 440 bytes Desc: not available URL: From icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM Fri Apr 23 14:40:22 2021 From: icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM (Adam Frost) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 07:40:22 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: <0A386363-75E9-4079-B3FE-C9936E60D3DF@signwriting.org> References: <2FC8FC1F-461B-4ED2-B726-8A332F4BD08A@gmail.com> <547AE4F1-07F4-4D1C-B694-A34A197D2144@signwriting.org> <2ABE1B97-D8D3-456B-861C-79390B5F7B91@gmail.com> <7A9944EF-785F-473F-B14F-C7F86B39389F@SIGNWRITING.ORG> <424934123.2887082.1619123051525@mail.yahoo.com> <231888741.2899076.1619124082605@mail.yahoo.com> <31764764-65FA-4376-B064-952D2676E7C0@dancewriting.org> <0A386363-75E9-4079-B3FE-C9936E60D3DF@signwriting.org> Message-ID: You?re right about the Raked Stage. I noticed that with the last writing with the ?Depth Lines? as you aptly called it. I almost wanted to add connecting lines on the side to complete the stage look. Ha! That is an interesting question of showing depth (if it is important for the writing). Let?s say I wanted to make it clear that a person crosses my path close to me and the later another person crosses my path farther up ahead. The line would be longer and shorter to show that distance. Would this be readable? Adam > On Apr 23, 2021, at 7:13 AM, Valerie Sutton wrote: > > SignWriting List > April 23, 2021 > > Actually, Adam, the lines you show in this email, with the longer one closer to the chest, feels like the concept of the Raked Stage, which our Movement Writing system was built on. Back in 1974 in Denmark I was teaching a troupe of ballet dancers DanceWriting, in Tivoli Gardens during the summer, and we would congregate for the class I was teaching on the stage that they would perform on, that evening. And the very old stage at Tivoli Gardens was hundreds of years old, and it was ?raked?, meaning slanted down towards the audience. So I was sitting in the front seat of the audience looking at the dancers on stage, and the slant brought them closer to me in the audience. So the writing system was designed to write on a Raked Stage, so that the reader, in the audience, sees anything closer to the reader a little larger on a slant. > > So you followed that theme perfectly with your invention of the longer line being ?closer to the reader?s chest?. > > So I really like this for ?positions? of one hand close and one hand far, both ?placed? in those positions. > > But, if there is a movement between them, and this is all the right hand and it is not a right hand close and a left hand far - then I need a Movement Arrow. How can I know which position started the movement without an arrow? Did you start in the back or did you start in the front? > > So for positioning or placing two hands for depth I love the ?Depth Lines? if they are different hands - > > Those are my thoughts ;-) > > Thank you for working on this - Thanks for the Depth Lines! > > Val ;-) > > ??? > > > >> On Apr 22, 2021, at 4:32 PM, Adam Frost > wrote: >> >> That is actually an interesting thought about the placement of two people in space. I hadn?t really thought of trying the lines that way, although I don?t see why it couldn?t be used in that way. >> >> This is probably how I would have tried writing that concept without changing view points before the line being used. >> >> >> >> It doesn?t tell how far they are apart or even that they are on the same level with one in front of the other rather than one above the other. However, if I used the lines, it might look like this. >> >> >> >> Kind of interesting how there is the possibility of detailing how much distance is between this way. Much like the Top View as well. >> >> I am not sure if this is ?the? solution in the cases when this might be necessary, but I could actually see it being possible. Still letting it marinate for the movement. ;-) >> >> >> Adam >> >>> On Apr 22, 2021, at 3:59 PM, Valerie Sutton > wrote: >>> >>> SignWriting List >>> April 22, 2021 >>> >>> Thanks for your emails Cherie - it is really great to hear from you. >>> >>> I think I see your point, which I too have thought about. Maybe the Movement Arrows moving the 5 Hand into the 4 Hand could not be used to show depth, if both hands are ?placed in space?, almost like a classifier, without the movement in-between - that kind of situation, where a movment between the two hands cannot be used, does really feel like it needs two sizes? like ?setting up? two people in space - one far away and one closer - that would not use Movement Arrows - then maybe the Top View is necessary and placing the two people in space is one sign where both hands arrive at their destination at the same time - one far from the Tope View Head and one close to the body - >>> >>> So Adam is this where you would use the two lines? >>> >>> I am going to search for an old document I have on writing classifiers that were a little like this - but we were using sizes - >>> >>> Thanks again - and have a great evening - >>> >>> Val ;-) >>> >>> ---------- >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Apr 22, 2021, at 1:41 PM, Cherie Wren <000000111c1a7803-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU > wrote: >>>> >>>> I'm trying to thing of a time I've used just one without the other. If I am talking about one teams score without the other, then I would just place it midway in neutral space. The only time I do the close/far is when I have two things to talk about. What makes the close/far situation is that we are combining the numbers with other information. "I support this team, you support that one, MY team scored 4, your team scored 5." In English those would be separate utterances, but they can be combined visually in ASL. The same way we set up people in space and then refer to that space instead of saying their name every time, like we have to do in English. The use of space is an additional layer of meaning for this... Does that make sense? An example of layering that I use sometimes is translating the English, "There is a man over there!!" Look at all them words! In ASL it could be MAN signed with one hand and point with the other with a frightened/panicked look on the face. Not sure how I would write that... >>>> >>>> On Thursday, April 22, 2021, 04:29:37 PM EDT, Adam Frost > wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> It happens to the best of us. ;-) >>>> >>>> So I have a question for you. How would you write the same sentence without the ending with 5? There wouldn?t be any movement going outward to end with the 5. It would end with the 4 close to the chest. >>>> >>>> Conversely, how would you write the sentence if only the other teams score was given, with the 5 farther away? >>>> >>>> >>>> Adam >>>> >>>>> On Apr 22, 2021, at 1:24 PM, Cherie Wren <000000111c1a7803-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> ooops, should have read all my emails before I replied.... :smile: >>>>> >>>>> On Thursday, April 22, 2021, 01:14:26 PM EDT, Valerie Sutton > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> SignWrting List >>>>> April 22, 2021 >>>>> >>>>> Hello Adam, Andre, Cherie, Kacio, Steve, Jonathan and everyone - >>>>> >>>>> Thank you for your messages and diagrams about "writing depth?. What wonderful messages you all posted, There are so many ways to write this... >>>>> >>>>> And thank you Adam, for the two videos posted yesterday. They helped me a lot ;-) >>>>> >>>>> As you know, the Top View can be mixed with the Front View. The Head in Top View establishes the ?depth? but the rest of the sign .. the hands, the movements ? can be written in the Front View, placed either near or far from the Head & body. It sounds crazy, but this combination of viewpoints seems to be working for readers. >>>>> >>>>> The Front View also works with the Shoulder Line. It is clear that the second handshape is ?far away? because of the Movement Arrow putting it there at the end of the movement. See diagram: >>>>> >>>>> <3 Ways To Write Depth v1.jpg> >>>>> >>>>> And looking at the above diagram I can see other ways to write it too. So there are a variety of choices. For me, the Movement Arrow gives me the depth information, but if you do not want to use an arrow, then the old ?sizes? work very well. >>>>> >>>>> Originally SignWriting was designed to keep the writing ALL Front View, using "size of symbols" to write the depth perspective of ?far away?. Smaller symbols represented ?far away?. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> This would work well with video transcription, such as Amit Moryossef?s amazing software representation of a stick figure on a video: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> https://youtu.be/pCKRWSNIaNQ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> So originally, the general ?Movement Writing? system was designed without mixing viewpoints within one sign. >>>>> >>>>> I want to thank Steve Slevinski for his posting about CSS Styling strings and the fact that Steve?s styling strings make it possible in software to change the size of symbols, and thank you Steve, for SignMaker 2017 and thank you, Jonathan, for the Quick SignEditor programs that are implementing those styling strings right now. I am grateful for your efforts and I hope to use the size differences now to write a technical document about these issues. >>>>> >>>>> I am aware of the point, that Rich Text is great for individual documents or signs that can be captured in graphics so the information is not lost, but in an actual symbolset, the information of ?small? vs ?large? would be lost if it is just plain text. >>>>> >>>>> Nonetheless, I am glad to know I can access the smaller symbols in the two programs and I plan to use it for some demonstrations. >>>>> >>>>> I have more to share later - hope you all can get up from your computers and do some exercise - it is so easy to sit for hours without realizing we need to move too! >>>>> >>>>> Have a great day everyone - >>>>> >>>>> Val ;-) >>>>> >>>>> ________________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>>>> >>>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>>>> >>>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 <3 Ways To Write Depth v1.jpg> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ________________________________________________ >>>> >>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>>> >>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ >>>> >>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>>> >>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >>>> >>> >>> ________________________________________________ >>> >>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>> >>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >> ________________________________________________ >> >> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >> >> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: namesign.png Type: image/png Size: 440 bytes Desc: not available URL: From 0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU Fri Apr 23 17:09:16 2021 From: 0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU (Valerie Sutton) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 10:09:16 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: References: <2FC8FC1F-461B-4ED2-B726-8A332F4BD08A@gmail.com> <547AE4F1-07F4-4D1C-B694-A34A197D2144@signwriting.org> <2ABE1B97-D8D3-456B-861C-79390B5F7B91@gmail.com> <7A9944EF-785F-473F-B14F-C7F86B39389F@SIGNWRITING.ORG> <424934123.2887082.1619123051525@mail.yahoo.com> <231888741.2899076.1619124082605@mail.yahoo.com> <31764764-65FA-4376-B064-952D2676E7C0@dancewriting.org> <0A386363-75E9-4079-B3FE-C9936E60D3DF@signwriting.org> Message-ID: SignWriting List April 23, 2021 Hi Adam, Cherie, Andre, Steve, Jonathan and everyone - The old textbooks, such as Lessons in SignWriting, and DanceWriting for Modern and Jazz Dance, have diagrams trying to show the concept of the Raked Stage. The longer line represents ?closer to the reader? which is really the audience in the dance world, but in the sign language world, writing in the Expressive, the audience is looking through the back of the signer, and becoming the signer. So ?closer to the reader? means ?closer to the chest? or ?closer to your body?. Whether writing body movement or sign languages, and whether writing Expressive or Receptive, the concept of the Raked Stage shows depth. Please excuse the childlike nature of some of these drawings - they were done quickly in 1979 while teaching a dance class - I am looking forward to updating our books this decade ;-) ????? > On Apr 23, 2021, at 7:40 AM, Adam Frost wrote: > > You?re right about the Raked Stage. I noticed that with the last writing with the ?Depth Lines? as you aptly called it. I almost wanted to add connecting lines on the side to complete the stage look. Ha! > > That is an interesting question of showing depth (if it is important for the writing). Let?s say I wanted to make it clear that a person crosses my path close to me and the later another person crosses my path farther up ahead. The line would be longer and shorter to show that distance. > > > > Would this be readable? > > > Adam > >> On Apr 23, 2021, at 7:13 AM, Valerie Sutton > wrote: >> >> SignWriting List >> April 23, 2021 >> >> Actually, Adam, the lines you show in this email, with the longer one closer to the chest, feels like the concept of the Raked Stage, which our Movement Writing system was built on. Back in 1974 in Denmark I was teaching a troupe of ballet dancers DanceWriting, in Tivoli Gardens during the summer, and we would congregate for the class I was teaching on the stage that they would perform on, that evening. And the very old stage at Tivoli Gardens was hundreds of years old, and it was ?raked?, meaning slanted down towards the audience. So I was sitting in the front seat of the audience looking at the dancers on stage, and the slant brought them closer to me in the audience. So the writing system was designed to write on a Raked Stage, so that the reader, in the audience, sees anything closer to the reader a little larger on a slant. >> >> So you followed that theme perfectly with your invention of the longer line being ?closer to the reader?s chest?. >> >> So I really like this for ?positions? of one hand close and one hand far, both ?placed? in those positions. >> >> But, if there is a movement between them, and this is all the right hand and it is not a right hand close and a left hand far - then I need a Movement Arrow. How can I know which position started the movement without an arrow? Did you start in the back or did you start in the front? >> >> So for positioning or placing two hands for depth I love the ?Depth Lines? if they are different hands - >> >> Those are my thoughts ;-) >> >> Thank you for working on this - Thanks for the Depth Lines! >> >> Val ;-) >> >> ??? >> ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Raked_Stage_Old_Diagrams.png Type: image/png Size: 80866 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Raked_Stage.png Type: image/png Size: 28830 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2021-04-23 at 7.39.38 AM.png Type: image/png Size: 6533 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: namesign.png Type: image/png Size: 440 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jsm88b at GMAIL.COM Mon Apr 26 18:01:34 2021 From: jsm88b at GMAIL.COM (Josenilson da Silva Mendes) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 15:01:34 -0300 Subject: [Sw-l] =?utf-8?b?QXByZXNlbnRhIMOnw6Nv?= Message-ID: Caros Valerie Sutton e participantes da SignWriting List, Meu nome ? Josenilson da Silva Mendes. Tenho 48 anos. Moro em Fortaleza, capital do Cear?-BR. Sou tradutor e int?rprete de l?ngua de sinais brasileira - Libras desde 1990. Meu primeiro contato com a escrita de sinais foi em 1997, em um congresso de educa??o de surdos, no Rio de Janeiro-RJ. Hoje, trabalho como tradutor e int?rprete de Libras na Universidade Federal do Cear?-UFC. A partir de 2012, comecei a aprofundar meus conhecimentos sobre o sistema Sutton de escrita de sinais com o livro de Madson e Raquel Barreto, Escrita de Sinais sem Mist?rios. Em 2015, conheci o signwriting.org e o signbank.org. Desde ent?o, tenho feito tradu??es do portugu?s para a Libras, principalmente da B?blia, no SignPuddle Online, e transcri??es de v?deos em Libras pelo sistema Sutton. Tamb?m fa?o revis?o de tradu??es e textos escritos em Libras pelo sistema Sutton para alguns colegas ouvintes e surdos. Conclui o mestrado em Estudos da Tradu??o em 2020, na UFC, e minha disserta??o era uma tradu??o comentada envolvendo escrita de sinais. Tenho ensinado a outros o que j? aprendi e continuo aprendendo sobre o sistema Sutton de escrita de sinais. Josenilson Mendes ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG Mon Apr 26 22:45:09 2021 From: sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG (Valerie Sutton) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 15:45:09 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] =?utf-8?b?QXByZXNlbnRhIMOnw6Nv?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <97089F02-B39E-42AE-814F-35B784E52541@signwriting.org> SignWriting List April 26, 2021 Welcome Josenilson Mendes to the SignWriting List! Very happy to meet you officially, although I know of your work and I am delighted to meet you directly. Thank you for posting your introduction. Here is the English translation, from Google Translate, of Josenilson?s introduction below in Portuguese: English Translation: Dear Valerie Sutton and SignWriting List participants, My name is Josenilson da Silva Mendes. I am 48 years old. I live in Fortaleza, capital of Cear?-BR. I have been a Brazilian Sign Language (Libras) translator and interpreter since 1990. My first contact with SignWriting was in 1997, at a Congress on Deaf Education, in Rio de Janeiro-RJ. Today, I work as a translator and interpreter of Libras at the Federal University of Cear?-UFC. From 2012, I started to deepen my knowledge about the Sutton SignWriting system with the book by Madson and Raquel Barreto, ?SignWriting Without Mysteries?. In 2015, I got to know SignWriting.org and SignBank.org. Since then, I have done translations from Portuguese to Libras, mainly from the Bible, on SignPuddle Online, and transcriptions of videos in Libras through the Sutton system. I also proofread translations and texts written in Libras by the Sutton system for some hearing and deaf colleagues. I completed my Master's degree in Translation Studies in 2020, at UFC, and my dissertation was a commented translation involving SignWriting. I have taught others what I have learned and continue to learn about the Sutton SignWriting system. ____________ > On Apr 26, 2021, at 11:01 AM, Josenilson da Silva Mendes wrote: > > Caros Valerie Sutton e participantes da SignWriting List, > Meu nome ? Josenilson da Silva Mendes. Tenho 48 anos. Moro em Fortaleza, capital do Cear?-BR. Sou tradutor e int?rprete de l?ngua de sinais brasileira - Libras desde 1990. Meu primeiro contato com a escrita de sinais foi em 1997, em um congresso de educa??o de surdos, no Rio de Janeiro-RJ. > Hoje, trabalho como tradutor e int?rprete de Libras na Universidade Federal do Cear?-UFC. A partir de 2012, comecei a aprofundar meus conhecimentos sobre o sistema Sutton de escrita de sinais com o livro de Madson e Raquel Barreto, Escrita de Sinais sem Mist?rios. Em 2015, conheci o signwriting.org e o signbank.org . Desde ent?o, tenho feito tradu??es do portugu?s para a Libras, principalmente da B?blia, no SignPuddle Online, e transcri??es de v?deos em Libras pelo sistema Sutton. Tamb?m fa?o revis?o de tradu??es e textos escritos em Libras pelo sistema Sutton para alguns colegas ouvintes e surdos. > Conclui o mestrado em Estudos da Tradu??o em 2020, na UFC, e minha disserta??o era uma tradu??o comentada envolvendo escrita de sinais. > Tenho ensinado a outros o que j? aprendi e continuo aprendendo sobre o sistema Sutton de escrita de sinais. > > > Josenilson Mendes > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From 0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU Mon Apr 26 22:52:26 2021 From: 0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU (Valerie Sutton) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 15:52:26 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] =?utf-8?q?Tamanho_de_alguns_s_=C3=ADmbolos?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CA86E83-7562-4D8A-A8B1-DC9450FCBF90@mac.com> SignWriting List April 26, 2021 English Translation from Google: Dear Valerie and Adam Frost, A question arose among some fellow SignWriting researchers as to why these symbols have different sizes. When should we write the largest and when should we write the smallest? Does it have anything to do with the amount of fingers that move? Grateful for the attention! Josenilson Mendes ____________ > On Apr 26, 2021, at 3:20 PM, Josenilson da Silva Mendes wrote: > > Caros Valerie e Adam Frost, > > Surgiu uma d?vida entre alguns colegas pesquisadores de escrita de sinais sobre a raz?o pela qual estes s?mbolos t?m tamanhos diferentes. Quando devemos escrever o maior e quando escrever o menor? Tem alguma rela??o com a quantidade de dedos que se movem? > > Grato pela aten??o! > Josenilson Mendes > ________________________________________________ ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 631 bytes Desc: not available URL: From icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM Mon Apr 26 23:01:31 2021 From: icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM (Adam Frost) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 16:01:31 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] =?utf-8?q?Tamanho_de_alguns_s_=C3=ADmbolos?= In-Reply-To: <8CA86E83-7562-4D8A-A8B1-DC9450FCBF90@mac.com> References: <8CA86E83-7562-4D8A-A8B1-DC9450FCBF90@mac.com> Message-ID: Hello Josenilson Mendes, That is a very good question. :-) I personally don't use the smaller versions. I believe it has to do with the case of when one finger does the movement but the other active fingers do not. So the bigger symbols mean all the fingers move rather than only the specific finger. I hope that is understandable. :-) ????????Google Translate into Portuguese????????? Ol? Josenilson Mendes, Esta ? uma quest?o muito boa. :-) Eu pessoalmente n?o uso as vers?es menores. Acredito que tenha a ver com o caso de quando um dedo faz o movimento, mas os outros dedos ativos n?o. Portanto, os s?mbolos maiores significam que todos os dedos se movem, e n?o apenas o dedo espec?fico. Espero que seja compreens?vel. :-) Adam > On Apr 26, 2021, at 3:52 PM, Valerie Sutton <0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU> wrote: > > SignWriting List > April 26, 2021 > > English Translation from Google: > > > Dear Valerie and Adam Frost, > > A question arose among some fellow SignWriting researchers as to why these symbols have different sizes. When should we write the largest and when should we write the smallest? Does it have anything to do with the amount of fingers that move? > > Grateful for the attention! > Josenilson Mendes > > ____________ > >> On Apr 26, 2021, at 3:20 PM, Josenilson da Silva Mendes > wrote: >> >> Caros Valerie e Adam Frost, >> >> Surgiu uma d?vida entre alguns colegas pesquisadores de escrita de sinais sobre a raz?o pela qual estes s?mbolos t?m tamanhos diferentes. Quando devemos escrever o maior e quando escrever o menor? Tem alguma rela??o com a quantidade de dedos que se movem? >> >> Grato pela aten??o! >> Josenilson Mendes >> ________________________________________________ > > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: namesign.png Type: image/png Size: 440 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sutton at DANCEWRITING.ORG Mon Apr 26 23:08:24 2021 From: sutton at DANCEWRITING.ORG (Valerie Sutton) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 16:08:24 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] =?utf-8?q?Tamanho_de_alguns_s_=C3=ADmbolos?= In-Reply-To: <8CA86E83-7562-4D8A-A8B1-DC9450FCBF90@mac.com> References: <8CA86E83-7562-4D8A-A8B1-DC9450FCBF90@mac.com> Message-ID: SignWriting List April 26, 2021 QUESTION: Small and large Finger Movement Symbols - does size mean how many fingers move? ANSWER: No. My memory was that the Size is there just for convenience when writing. Some signs need more space to write and so the smaller size is useful in those cases, and some signs look better with the larger symbol. I see Adam feels they do mean ?more than one?, but no matter what, they are ?one time movement?. If they move ?open-open? - in other words - two movements in a row - then there are two written - Let me look up our early textbooks to be sure of all this (smile)! Did you know that the system in 46 years old? And some of these particulars evolved over time - so it would be good to review it - What did Madson and Raquel?s book ?SignWriting Without Mysteries? say? The symbols are listed in the ISWA 2010 HTML Reference Manual Online. Here is Group 12: https://www.signbank.org/iswa/216_sg.html ________________________ > > SignWriting List > April 26, 2021 > > English Translation from Google: > > Dear Valerie and Adam Frost, > > A question arose among some fellow SignWriting researchers as to why these symbols have different sizes. When should we write the largest and when should we write the smallest? Does it have anything to do with the amount of fingers that move? > > Grateful for the attention! > Josenilson Mendes > > ____________ > >> On Apr 26, 2021, at 3:20 PM, Josenilson da Silva Mendes > wrote: >> >> Caros Valerie e Adam Frost, >> >> Surgiu uma d?vida entre alguns colegas pesquisadores de escrita de sinais sobre a raz?o pela qual estes s?mbolos t?m tamanhos diferentes. Quando devemos escrever o maior e quando escrever o menor? Tem alguma rela??o com a quantidade de dedos que se movem? >> >> Grato pela aten??o! >> Josenilson Mendes >> ________________________________________________ > > ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Group12.png Type: image/png Size: 241788 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 631 bytes Desc: not available URL: From icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM Mon Apr 26 23:17:38 2021 From: icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM (Adam Frost) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 16:17:38 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] =?utf-8?q?Tamanho_de_alguns_s_=C3=ADmbolos?= In-Reply-To: References: <8CA86E83-7562-4D8A-A8B1-DC9450FCBF90@mac.com> Message-ID: I am not sure about the meaning of ?more than one?. In fact, when you put it that way, it doesn?t seem right. :-) Like I said, I don't personally write with the smaller symbols, so it is possible I understand it wrong. :-) Yes, I think we need to check out the older documents. :-) Adam > On Apr 26, 2021, at 4:08 PM, Valerie Sutton wrote: > > SignWriting List > April 26, 2021 > > QUESTION: Small and large Finger Movement Symbols - does size mean how many fingers move? > > ANSWER: No. My memory was that the Size is there just for convenience when writing. Some signs need more space to write and so the smaller size is useful in those cases, and some signs look better with the larger symbol. I see Adam feels they do mean ?more than one?, but no matter what, they are ?one time movement?. If they move ?open-open? - in other words - two movements in a row - then there are two written - > > Let me look up our early textbooks to be sure of all this (smile)! Did you know that the system in 46 years old? And some of these particulars evolved over time - so it would be good to review it - > > What did Madson and Raquel?s book ?SignWriting Without Mysteries? say? > > The symbols are listed in the ISWA 2010 HTML Reference Manual Online. Here is Group 12: > > https://www.signbank.org/iswa/216_sg.html > > > > > ________________________ > >> >> SignWriting List >> April 26, 2021 >> >> English Translation from Google: >> >> Dear Valerie and Adam Frost, >> >> A question arose among some fellow SignWriting researchers as to why these symbols have different sizes. When should we write the largest and when should we write the smallest? Does it have anything to do with the amount of fingers that move? >> >> Grateful for the attention! >> Josenilson Mendes >> >> ____________ >> >>> On Apr 26, 2021, at 3:20 PM, Josenilson da Silva Mendes > wrote: >>> >>> Caros Valerie e Adam Frost, >>> >>> Surgiu uma d?vida entre alguns colegas pesquisadores de escrita de sinais sobre a raz?o pela qual estes s?mbolos t?m tamanhos diferentes. Quando devemos escrever o maior e quando escrever o menor? Tem alguma rela??o com a quantidade de dedos que se movem? >>> >>> Grato pela aten??o! >>> Josenilson Mendes >>> ________________________________________________ >> >> > > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: namesign.png Type: image/png Size: 440 bytes Desc: not available URL: From 0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU Mon Apr 26 23:27:59 2021 From: 0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU (Valerie Sutton) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 16:27:59 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] =?utf-8?q?=5BSPAM=5D_Re=3A_=5BSW-L=5D_Tamanho_de_alguns_s_?= =?utf-8?q?=C3=ADmbolos?= In-Reply-To: References: <8CA86E83-7562-4D8A-A8B1-DC9450FCBF90@mac.com> Message-ID: <59BA67EB-77AE-4A1C-B16F-447D43D03F9B@mac.com> Hi Adam - I appreciate your answer truly. ;-) I guess I meant ?more than one finger? - I am not sure either - I am trying to remember why we put two different sizes in the ISWA 2010 - it was a lot of work to do that - Originally I did the dot-by-dot development for the pngs, and then you did the SVG (thank you so much, Adam ;-). So when you think about it, there had to be a reason! For those who might be interested, Adam did videos teaching these symbols: https://youtu.be/F4wIpupyNtY I will write again when I find a really good answer ;-) Val ;-) > On Apr 26, 2021, at 4:17 PM, Adam Frost wrote: > > I am not sure about the meaning of ?more than one?. In fact, when you put it that way, it doesn?t seem right. :-) > > Like I said, I don't personally write with the smaller symbols, so it is possible I understand it wrong. :-) > > Yes, I think we need to check out the older documents. :-) > > > Adam > >> On Apr 26, 2021, at 4:08 PM, Valerie Sutton > wrote: >> >> SignWriting List >> April 26, 2021 >> >> QUESTION: Small and large Finger Movement Symbols - does size mean how many fingers move? >> >> ANSWER: No. My memory was that the Size is there just for convenience when writing. Some signs need more space to write and so the smaller size is useful in those cases, and some signs look better with the larger symbol. I see Adam feels they do mean ?more than one?, but no matter what, they are ?one time movement?. If they move ?open-open? - in other words - two movements in a row - then there are two written - >> >> Let me look up our early textbooks to be sure of all this (smile)! Did you know that the system in 46 years old? And some of these particulars evolved over time - so it would be good to review it - >> >> What did Madson and Raquel?s book ?SignWriting Without Mysteries? say? >> >> The symbols are listed in the ISWA 2010 HTML Reference Manual Online. Here is Group 12: >> >> https://www.signbank.org/iswa/216_sg.html >> >> >> >> >> ________________________ >> >>> >>> SignWriting List >>> April 26, 2021 >>> >>> English Translation from Google: >>> >>> Dear Valerie and Adam Frost, >>> >>> A question arose among some fellow SignWriting researchers as to why these symbols have different sizes. When should we write the largest and when should we write the smallest? Does it have anything to do with the amount of fingers that move? >>> >>> Grateful for the attention! >>> Josenilson Mendes >>> >>> ____________ >>> >>>> On Apr 26, 2021, at 3:20 PM, Josenilson da Silva Mendes > wrote: >>>> >>>> Caros Valerie e Adam Frost, >>>> >>>> Surgiu uma d?vida entre alguns colegas pesquisadores de escrita de sinais sobre a raz?o pela qual estes s?mbolos t?m tamanhos diferentes. Quando devemos escrever o maior e quando escrever o menor? Tem alguma rela??o com a quantidade de dedos que se movem? >>>> >>>> Grato pela aten??o! >>>> Josenilson Mendes >>>> ________________________________________________ >>> >>> >> >> ________________________________________________ >> >> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >> >> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jsm88b at GMAIL.COM Mon Apr 26 22:26:09 2021 From: jsm88b at GMAIL.COM (Josenilson da Silva Mendes) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 19:26:09 -0300 Subject: [Sw-l] S=?UTF-8?Q?=C3=ADmbolos_de_localiza=C3=A7=C3=A3o_?=exata Message-ID: Caros amigos da SW-List, Valerie e Adam, Sabemos que os s?mbolos de localiza??o exata n?o s?o de uso corrente, mas servem para fins espec?ficos de estudos lingu?sticos de l?nguas de sinais. Gostaria de saber se h? algum exemplo de uso destes s?mbolos de localiza??o exata em qualquer l?ngua de sinais. Sabemos que este se referem ao plano parede: [image: image.png] Como eu poderia us?-lo para descrever um sinal? Algu?m pode me mostrar um exemplo? O ponto central do oct?gono estaria na altura do quadril? Sabemos que este se referem ao plano ch?o: [image: image.png] Como eu poderia us?-lo para descrever um sinal? Algu?m pode me mostrar um exemplo? O ponto central do oct?gono se refere ao eixo do corpo, da cabe?a aos p?s? Estes abaixo se referem ? dist?ncia da realiza??o de um sinal em rela??o ao corpo em uma vis?o de cima, correto? [image: image.png] O tra?o se refere ao espa?o ? frente do corpo onde um sinal ? realizado e se move, correto? Estes abaixo se referem ? altura em rela??o ao torso em que se realiza um sinal, correto? [image: image.png] Estes abaixo se relacionam ao eixo longitudinal do corpo e em que posi??o o sinal ? realizado, correto? [image: image.png] Sabemos que estes abaixo se referem a pontos de contato ou localiza??o exata em membros ou partes do corpo. [image: image.png] [image: image.png] Mas o que significam os c?rculos branco e o preto? Os c?rculos est?o relacionados ? perspectiva do sinalizante? H? algum exemplo? Existe algum material em v?deo ou escrito sobre estes s?mbolos de localiza??o exata? J? agrade?o pelas respostas! Josenilson Mendes ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 2821 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 2296 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 2001 bytes Desc: not available URL: From 0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU Tue Apr 27 01:27:48 2021 From: 0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU (Valerie Sutton) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 18:27:48 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] S=?utf-8?Q?=C3=ADmbolos_de_localiza=C3=A7=C3=A3o_?=exata In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <901B656C-4A99-49D8-AAA2-46BA382548E5@mac.com> SignWriting List April 26, 2021 Google Translation into English: We know that symbols of exact location are not commonly used, but they serve specific purposes for linguistic studies of sign languages. I wonder if there are any examples of using these exact location symbols in any sign language. We know that this refer to the wall plan: How could I use it to describe a signal? Can anyone show me an example? Would the central point of the octagon be at hip height? We know that these refer to the ground plane: How could I use it to describe a signal? Can anyone show me an example? Does the central point of the octagon refer to the axis of the body, from head to toe? These below refer to the distance of a signal from the body in a top view, correct? The dash refers to the space in front of the body where a signal is made and moves, correct? These below refer to the height in relation to the torso at which a signal is made, correct? These below relate to the longitudinal axis of the body and in what position the signal is made, correct? We know that these below refer to points of contact or exact location on limbs or parts of the body. But what do the white and black circles mean? Are the circles related to the perspective of the sign? Is there an example? Is there any video or written material about these exact location symbols? Thank you for the answers! ------------- > On Apr 26, 2021, at 3:26 PM, Josenilson da Silva Mendes wrote: > > Caros amigos da SW-List, Valerie e Adam, > > > Sabemos que os s?mbolos de localiza??o exata n?o s?o de uso corrente, mas servem para fins espec?ficos de estudos lingu?sticos de l?nguas de sinais. Gostaria de saber se h? algum exemplo de uso destes s?mbolos de localiza??o exata em qualquer l?ngua de sinais. > > Sabemos que este se referem ao plano parede: > > Como eu poderia us?-lo para descrever um sinal? Algu?m pode me mostrar um exemplo? O ponto central do oct?gono estaria na altura do quadril? > > Sabemos que este se referem ao plano ch?o: > > Como eu poderia us?-lo para descrever um sinal? Algu?m pode me mostrar um exemplo? O ponto central do oct?gono se refere ao eixo do corpo, da cabe?a aos p?s? > > Estes abaixo se referem ? dist?ncia da realiza??o de um sinal em rela??o ao corpo em uma vis?o de cima, correto? > > O tra?o se refere ao espa?o ? frente do corpo onde um sinal ? realizado e se move, correto? > > Estes abaixo se referem ? altura em rela??o ao torso em que se realiza um sinal, correto? > > Estes abaixo se relacionam ao eixo longitudinal do corpo e em que posi??o o sinal ? realizado, correto? > > > Sabemos que estes abaixo se referem a pontos de contato ou localiza??o exata em membros ou partes do corpo. > > > Mas o que significam os c?rculos branco e o preto? Os c?rculos est?o relacionados ? perspectiva do sinalizante? H? algum exemplo? > > Existe algum material em v?deo ou escrito sobre estes s?mbolos de localiza??o exata? > > J? agrade?o pelas respostas! > > Josenilson Mendes > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 956 bytes Desc: not available URL: From icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM Tue Apr 27 04:16:04 2021 From: icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM (Adam Frost) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 21:16:04 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] S=?utf-8?Q?=C3=ADmbolos_de_localiza=C3=A7=C3=A3o_?=exata In-Reply-To: <901B656C-4A99-49D8-AAA2-46BA382548E5@mac.com> References: <901B656C-4A99-49D8-AAA2-46BA382548E5@mac.com> Message-ID: <025CA62C-09F6-48D2-94AF-D76150ED5FEC@gmail.com> Hello Josenilson Mendes, For the most part, your understanding of these symbols are correct and about as well as I understand them myself. I have never seen these symbols used in actual writing of signs; however, I can see them being used in SignSpelling which is used for sorting signs. They might be helpful and/or necessary to differentiate between different signs when the symbols are taken from the 3D writing and arranged into a 2D string for sorting. It might also be helpful for researchers to include spatial information to search across a database of signs. I have added some comments below so you know which symbols I am referring to. I hope this helps you understand these symbols even though I can?t think of any specific signs that use these symbols. Adam > On Apr 26, 2021, at 6:27 PM, Valerie Sutton <0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU> wrote: > > SignWriting List > April 26, 2021 > > Google Translation into English: > > We know that symbols of exact location are not commonly used, but they serve specific purposes for linguistic studies of sign languages. I wonder if there are any examples of using these exact location symbols in any sign language. > > We know that this refer to the wall plan: > How could I use it to describe a signal? Can anyone show me an example? Would the central point of the octagon be at hip height? Yes, your understanding of these symbols see to be correct. These symbols would be like telling a location on a wall in front of the signer where the middle line is likely at the waist or hip height. My guess is that the first symbol is just a general height indicator of above the center of the body (or the hip as you stated). The black in the other symbols tell how much higher or lower from the center point the location is. > > We know that these refer to the ground plane: > > How could I use it to describe a signal? Can anyone show me an example? Does the central point of the octagon refer to the axis of the body, from head to toe? These symbols would be as if it was on the floor and the signer is standing in the center. So the first symbol would be to indicate location in front, while the next three detail how specifically close or far from the front of the signer. > > These below refer to the distance of a signal from the body in a top view, correct? > > The dash refers to the space in front of the body where a signal is made and moves, correct? Yes, these three symbols would be telling how close or far from the front of the signer. In a sense, these three symbols have the same meaning as the last three in the previous series. > > These below refer to the height in relation to the torso at which a signal is made, correct? Correct, these symbols would have a clear relation to the height on the body that the first series of symbols didn?t have. > > These below relate to the longitudinal axis of the body and in what position the signal is made, correct? Yes, that is correct. These symbols give the location on a vertical line across the body. > > We know that these below refer to points of contact or exact location on limbs or parts of the body. > But what do the white and black circles mean? Are the circles related to the perspective of the sign? Is there an example? Yes, these symbols give specific location on the arms, fingers, hand, and torso (in that order). The difference between the circles is the front and back. I might have this mixed up, but I believe the black circles would be the locations that you see if you were standing behind the signer, and the white circles would be the locations that you would see if you were standing in front of the signer. > > Is there any video or written material about these exact location symbols? > > Thank you for the answers! > > > ------------- > >> On Apr 26, 2021, at 3:26 PM, Josenilson da Silva Mendes > wrote: >> >> Caros amigos da SW-List, Valerie e Adam, >> >> >> Sabemos que os s?mbolos de localiza??o exata n?o s?o de uso corrente, mas servem para fins espec?ficos de estudos lingu?sticos de l?nguas de sinais. Gostaria de saber se h? algum exemplo de uso destes s?mbolos de localiza??o exata em qualquer l?ngua de sinais. >> >> Sabemos que este se referem ao plano parede: >> >> Como eu poderia us?-lo para descrever um sinal? Algu?m pode me mostrar um exemplo? O ponto central do oct?gono estaria na altura do quadril? >> >> Sabemos que este se referem ao plano ch?o: >> >> Como eu poderia us?-lo para descrever um sinal? Algu?m pode me mostrar um exemplo? O ponto central do oct?gono se refere ao eixo do corpo, da cabe?a aos p?s? >> >> Estes abaixo se referem ? dist?ncia da realiza??o de um sinal em rela??o ao corpo em uma vis?o de cima, correto? >> >> O tra?o se refere ao espa?o ? frente do corpo onde um sinal ? realizado e se move, correto? >> >> Estes abaixo se referem ? altura em rela??o ao torso em que se realiza um sinal, correto? >> >> Estes abaixo se relacionam ao eixo longitudinal do corpo e em que posi??o o sinal ? realizado, correto? >> >> >> Sabemos que estes abaixo se referem a pontos de contato ou localiza??o exata em membros ou partes do corpo. >> >> >> Mas o que significam os c?rculos branco e o preto? Os c?rculos est?o relacionados ? perspectiva do sinalizante? H? algum exemplo? >> >> Existe algum material em v?deo ou escrito sobre estes s?mbolos de localiza??o exata? >> >> J? agrade?o pelas respostas! >> >> Josenilson Mendes >> ________________________________________________ >> >> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >> >> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 1904 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 2851 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tr.vanessa.ferreira at GMAIL.COM Tue Apr 27 16:07:41 2021 From: tr.vanessa.ferreira at GMAIL.COM (=?UTF-8?Q?F=C3=ADsica_em_Libras?=) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 13:07:41 -0300 Subject: [Sw-l] =?utf-8?q?=5BSPAM=5D_Re=3A_=5BSW-L=5D_Tamanho_de_alguns_s_?= =?utf-8?q?=C3=ADmbolos?= In-Reply-To: <59BA67EB-77AE-4A1C-B16F-447D43D03F9B@mac.com> References: <8CA86E83-7562-4D8A-A8B1-DC9450FCBF90@mac.com> <59BA67EB-77AE-4A1C-B16F-447D43D03F9B@mac.com> Message-ID: I usually use them to register if the Finger open just a little or wide open. Vanessa Cristina da Silva Ferreira Mestranda em Educa??o em Ci?ncias e Matem?tica/PPGEduCIMAT/UFRRJ Licenciada em F?sica/UFRRJ Colaboradora do Coletivo PNE/UFRRJ Colaboradora do Projeto Cultura Visual - Imers?o na Libras - DLC/UFRRJ Colaboradora do Projeto Meninas do Radium - LEFERCE - UFRRJ Em seg, 26 de abr de 2021 20:28, Valerie Sutton < 0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at listserv.valenciacollege.edu> escreveu: > Hi Adam - > I appreciate your answer truly. ;-) > > I guess I meant ?more than one finger? - I am not sure either - I am > trying to remember why we put two different sizes in the ISWA 2010 - it was > a lot of work to do that - Originally I did the dot-by-dot development for > the pngs, and then you did the SVG (thank you so much, Adam ;-). So when > you think about it, there had to be a reason! > > For those who might be interested, Adam did videos teaching these symbols: > > https://youtu.be/F4wIpupyNtY > > I will write again when I find a really good answer ;-) > > Val ;-) > > > > On Apr 26, 2021, at 4:17 PM, Adam Frost wrote: > > I am not sure about the meaning of ?more than one?. In fact, when you put > it that way, it doesn?t seem right. :-) > > Like I said, I don't personally write with the smaller symbols, so it is > possible I understand it wrong. :-) > > Yes, I think we need to check out the older documents. :-) > > > Adam > > On Apr 26, 2021, at 4:08 PM, Valerie Sutton > wrote: > > SignWriting List > April 26, 2021 > > QUESTION: Small and large Finger Movement Symbols - does size mean how > many fingers move? > > ANSWER: No. My memory was that the Size is there just for convenience when > writing. Some signs need more space to write and so the smaller size is > useful in those cases, and some signs look better with the larger symbol. I > see Adam feels they do mean ?more than one?, but no matter what, they are > ?one time movement?. If they move ?open-open? - in other words - two > movements in a row - then there are two written - > > Let me look up our early textbooks to be sure of all this (smile)! Did you > know that the system in 46 years old? And some of these particulars evolved > over time - so it would be good to review it - > > What did Madson and Raquel?s book ?SignWriting Without Mysteries? say? > > The symbols are listed in the ISWA 2010 HTML Reference Manual Online. Here > is Group 12: > > https://www.signbank.org/iswa/216_sg.html > > > > > ________________________ > > > SignWriting List > April 26, 2021 > > English Translation from Google: > > Dear Valerie and Adam Frost, A question arose among some fellow > SignWriting researchers as to why these symbols have different sizes. When > should we write the largest and when should we write the smallest? Does it > have anything to do with the amount of fingers that move? > Grateful for the attention! Josenilson Mendes > > ____________ > > On Apr 26, 2021, at 3:20 PM, Josenilson da Silva Mendes > wrote: > > Caros Valerie e Adam Frost, > > Surgiu uma d?vida entre alguns colegas pesquisadores de escrita de sinais > sobre a raz?o pela qual estes s?mbolos t?m tamanhos diferentes. Quando > devemos escrever o maior e quando escrever o menor? Tem alguma rela??o com > a quantidade de dedos que se movem? > > Grato pela aten??o! > Josenilson Mendes > ________________________________________________ > > > > > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page > http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages > http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > > > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page > http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages > http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > > > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page > http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages > http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From escolavirtualprojetofaisca at GMAIL.COM Tue Apr 27 18:43:23 2021 From: escolavirtualprojetofaisca at GMAIL.COM (Melquiedes Ferreira Franco) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 15:43:23 -0300 Subject: [Sw-l] New Brazilian book 'A Saga do Surdo' with SignWriting In-Reply-To: <1FF8FB1A-EBE5-4863-B386-418B0785E5D5@mac.com> References: <418D873D-DAB9-4086-9774-E250945113F7@signwriting.org> <3b1c82d3-e4cf-8e71-c90a-cd9b2d2b4130@yahoo.ca> <1FF8FB1A-EBE5-4863-B386-418B0785E5D5@mac.com> Message-ID: Dear, Valerie Sutton, I am teacher Melqu?edes, we sent the book "A Saga do Surdo" on February 22, 2021. But, we verified that the post office still delivered the book to your address. As soon as possible we will go to the post office to figure out these situation. Our apologies for the inconvenience. Cheers. Melqu?edes. Em qui, 4 de fev de 2021 18:01, Valerie Sutton < 0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at listserv.valenciacollege.edu> escreveu: > SignWriting List > February 4th, 2021 > > Hello Melquiedes - > Your English is excellent! > > I would love a copy of your book, Melquiedes. Thank you. I will write to > you. > > Congratulations to your daughter and author, Maria Alice Floriano Franco > ;-) > > I will create a link on our SignWriting site to your video about the book. > > I used Google Translate to translate some information into English, from > the Portuguese you posted, under the video. See below. > > B?NUS: NA COMPRA DO LIVRO VOC? GANHA UM CURSO B?SICO DE LIBRAS 100% ON > LINE. E PARTICIPAR? DA NOSSA COMUNIDADE NO FACEBOOK PARA APRENDER TODOS OS > SINAIS EXISTENTES NO LIVRO. O APRENDIZADO ? CONTEXTUALIZADO COM IMAGENS DAS > CENAS DA HIST?RIA, COM AVATARES QUE MOSTRAM AS DIRE??ES DAS CONFIGURA??ES > MANUAIS E ALGUMAS EXPRESS?ES FACIAIS. AL?M DISSO, VOC? APRENDER? A ESCRITA > DE SINAIS DE TODOS OS SINAIS MOSTRADOS NA OBRA. TEMOS UMA S?RIE DE B?NUS > QUE SER?O LIBERADOS NOS PR?XIMOS MESES. TAIS COMO E-BOOKS, PLAYLISTS DE > LIVES PRIVADAS COM CONTE?DO EXPLICATIVO SOBRE O TEMA DO LIVRO. E TEM > MAIS... NOS PR?XIMOS MESES VOC? TER? ACESSO A JOGOS INTERATIVOS DID?TICOS > PARA FIXAR O APRENDIZADO ADQUIRIDO NA COMUNIDADE. > > ENGLISH TRANSLATION: > > BONUS: > > IN PURCHASING THE BOOK YOU GET A BASIC COURSE OF LIBRAS 100% ON LINE. AND YOU WILL PARTICIPATE IN OUR COMMUNITY ON FACEBOOK TO LEARN ALL SIGNS IN THE BOOK. > LEARNING IS CONTEXTUALIZED WITH IMAGES OF HISTORY SCENES, WITH AVATARS THAT SHOW THE DIRECTIONS OF MANUAL SETTINGS AND SOME FACIAL EXPRESSIONS. > ALSO, YOU WILL LEARN THE WRITING OF SIGNS OF ALL THE SIGNS SHOWN IN THE WORK. WE HAVE A BONUS SERIES TO BE RELEASED IN THE NEXT MONTHS. SUCH AS E-BOOKS, PLAYLISTS OF PRIVATE BOOKS WITH EXPLANATORY CONTENT ABOUT THE BOOK'S THEME. > AND IT'S MORE ... IN THE NEXT MONTHS YOU WILL HAVE ACCESS TO INTERACTIVE TEACHING GAMES TO FIX THE LEARNING ACQUIRED IN THE COMMUNITY. > > > > How do people purchase the book? > > Val ;-) > > ------------- > > > > On Feb 3, 2021, at 1:47 PM, Melquiedes Ferreira Franco < > escolavirtualprojetofaisca at GMAIL.COM> wrote: > > Wow! you answer me so fast. Thank you for your attention!!! > Yes, of course, iI would like to see the book on the signwriting website. > unfortunately, there is no downloadable version of this book. > It is sold only in the physical version. > I would like to know how I can send a book as a gift. That would be an > honor for us. > I was responsible for signwriting, but the author of the book is my > daughter, Maria Alice Floriano Franco. > I?m waiting for your address. > If I making some mistakes in English, I?m sorry, my English working in > progress. > > Thank you so much. > > Melquiedes. > > > Em qua., 3 de fev. de 2021 ?s 17:18, Valerie Sutton < > 0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at listserv.valenciacollege.edu> escreveu: > >> SignWriting List >> February 3, 2021 >> >> Thank you, Melquiedes Ferreira Franco, for informing us about your new >> book ?A Saga do Surdo?, which includes beautiful pages of illustrations >> with LIBRAS (Brazilian Sign Language) written in SignWriting. And what a >> great history!! Thank you for the YouTube introduction - so beautiful! How >> can we purchase or download this book? Do you want me to link to this on >> our SignWriting site? It would be an honor... >> >> https://youtu.be/_Es24V12sOQ >> >> >> >> >> On Feb 3, 2021, at 11:12 AM, Melquiedes Ferreira Franco < >> escolavirtualprojetofaisca at GMAIL.COM> wrote: >> >> Hi! Valerie Sutton and other members of the group, my name is Melquiedes, >> I am a history teacher, brazilian sign language interpreter, so, I would >> like to present you our bilingual book Portuguese / Libras / sign writing, >> our goal is to promote sign language and sig writing as well. >> >> The literary work 'A Saga do Surdo' tells the trajectory of the deaf in >> the history of mankind, in order to aggregate deaf literature and provide >> the experience of a bilingual reading to its readers, encouraging and >> disseminating Libras (Brazilian sign language). >> >> Accessible in Libras (Brazilian sign language), with texts in Portuguese >> and SignWriting (Sign Writing), the illustrated book covers the main facts >> of this history, starting in Ancient Egypt until the achievement of the >> liberation of sign language (Congress of Paris - 1971), after the Oralist >> Empire. >> >> In a simple and summarized way, the reader will have at hand a brief >> summary of more than 4000 years of history, in addition, he will be able to >> learn Libras, Portuguese and Sign Writing in a didactic way. >> >> You can see more by watching the video. >> >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=TLPQMzAwMTIwMjF6YiS2ykRMKg&v=_Es24V12sOQ&feature=emb_logo >> >> Melquiedes Ferreira Franco. >> >> > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page > http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages > http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: A_Saga_do_Surdo.png Type: image/png Size: 312191 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: A_Saga_do_Surdo.png Type: image/png Size: 312191 bytes Desc: not available URL: From escolavirtualprojetofaisca at GMAIL.COM Tue Apr 27 18:47:45 2021 From: escolavirtualprojetofaisca at GMAIL.COM (Melquiedes Ferreira Franco) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 15:47:45 -0300 Subject: [Sw-l] New Brazilian book 'A Saga do Surdo' with SignWriting In-Reply-To: References: <418D873D-DAB9-4086-9774-E250945113F7@signwriting.org> <3b1c82d3-e4cf-8e71-c90a-cd9b2d2b4130@yahoo.ca> <1FF8FB1A-EBE5-4863-B386-418B0785E5D5@mac.com> Message-ID: I forgot the post code. Maybe you can check it. Ol?. Clique no link para rastrear o objeto c?digo RR034027400BR https://www.linkcorreios.com.br/RR034027400BR?w=1 Melqu?edes Em ter, 27 de abr de 2021 15:43, Melquiedes Ferreira Franco < escolavirtualprojetofaisca at gmail.com> escreveu: > Dear, Valerie Sutton, I am teacher Melqu?edes, we sent the book "A Saga do > Surdo" on February 22, 2021. But, we verified that the post office still > delivered the book to your address. > As soon as possible we will go to the post office to figure out these > situation. Our apologies for the inconvenience. > > Cheers. > > Melqu?edes. > > > Em qui, 4 de fev de 2021 18:01, Valerie Sutton < > 0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at listserv.valenciacollege.edu> escreveu: > >> SignWriting List >> February 4th, 2021 >> >> Hello Melquiedes - >> Your English is excellent! >> >> I would love a copy of your book, Melquiedes. Thank you. I will write to >> you. >> >> Congratulations to your daughter and author, Maria Alice Floriano Franco >> ;-) >> >> I will create a link on our SignWriting site to your video about the book. >> >> I used Google Translate to translate some information into English, from >> the Portuguese you posted, under the video. See below. >> >> B?NUS: NA COMPRA DO LIVRO VOC? GANHA UM CURSO B?SICO DE LIBRAS 100% ON >> LINE. E PARTICIPAR? DA NOSSA COMUNIDADE NO FACEBOOK PARA APRENDER TODOS OS >> SINAIS EXISTENTES NO LIVRO. O APRENDIZADO ? CONTEXTUALIZADO COM IMAGENS DAS >> CENAS DA HIST?RIA, COM AVATARES QUE MOSTRAM AS DIRE??ES DAS CONFIGURA??ES >> MANUAIS E ALGUMAS EXPRESS?ES FACIAIS. AL?M DISSO, VOC? APRENDER? A ESCRITA >> DE SINAIS DE TODOS OS SINAIS MOSTRADOS NA OBRA. TEMOS UMA S?RIE DE B?NUS >> QUE SER?O LIBERADOS NOS PR?XIMOS MESES. TAIS COMO E-BOOKS, PLAYLISTS DE >> LIVES PRIVADAS COM CONTE?DO EXPLICATIVO SOBRE O TEMA DO LIVRO. E TEM >> MAIS... NOS PR?XIMOS MESES VOC? TER? ACESSO A JOGOS INTERATIVOS DID?TICOS >> PARA FIXAR O APRENDIZADO ADQUIRIDO NA COMUNIDADE. >> >> ENGLISH TRANSLATION: >> >> BONUS: >> >> IN PURCHASING THE BOOK YOU GET A BASIC COURSE OF LIBRAS 100% ON LINE. AND YOU WILL PARTICIPATE IN OUR COMMUNITY ON FACEBOOK TO LEARN ALL SIGNS IN THE BOOK. >> LEARNING IS CONTEXTUALIZED WITH IMAGES OF HISTORY SCENES, WITH AVATARS THAT SHOW THE DIRECTIONS OF MANUAL SETTINGS AND SOME FACIAL EXPRESSIONS. >> ALSO, YOU WILL LEARN THE WRITING OF SIGNS OF ALL THE SIGNS SHOWN IN THE WORK. WE HAVE A BONUS SERIES TO BE RELEASED IN THE NEXT MONTHS. SUCH AS E-BOOKS, PLAYLISTS OF PRIVATE BOOKS WITH EXPLANATORY CONTENT ABOUT THE BOOK'S THEME. >> AND IT'S MORE ... IN THE NEXT MONTHS YOU WILL HAVE ACCESS TO INTERACTIVE TEACHING GAMES TO FIX THE LEARNING ACQUIRED IN THE COMMUNITY. >> >> >> >> How do people purchase the book? >> >> Val ;-) >> >> ------------- >> >> >> >> On Feb 3, 2021, at 1:47 PM, Melquiedes Ferreira Franco < >> escolavirtualprojetofaisca at GMAIL.COM> wrote: >> >> Wow! you answer me so fast. Thank you for your attention!!! >> Yes, of course, iI would like to see the book on the signwriting website. >> unfortunately, there is no downloadable version of this book. >> It is sold only in the physical version. >> I would like to know how I can send a book as a gift. That would be an >> honor for us. >> I was responsible for signwriting, but the author of the book is my >> daughter, Maria Alice Floriano Franco. >> I?m waiting for your address. >> If I making some mistakes in English, I?m sorry, my English working in >> progress. >> >> Thank you so much. >> >> Melquiedes. >> >> >> Em qua., 3 de fev. de 2021 ?s 17:18, Valerie Sutton < >> 0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at listserv.valenciacollege.edu> escreveu: >> >>> SignWriting List >>> February 3, 2021 >>> >>> Thank you, Melquiedes Ferreira Franco, for informing us about your new >>> book ?A Saga do Surdo?, which includes beautiful pages of illustrations >>> with LIBRAS (Brazilian Sign Language) written in SignWriting. And what a >>> great history!! Thank you for the YouTube introduction - so beautiful! How >>> can we purchase or download this book? Do you want me to link to this on >>> our SignWriting site? It would be an honor... >>> >>> https://youtu.be/_Es24V12sOQ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Feb 3, 2021, at 11:12 AM, Melquiedes Ferreira Franco < >>> escolavirtualprojetofaisca at GMAIL.COM> wrote: >>> >>> Hi! Valerie Sutton and other members of the group, my name is >>> Melquiedes, I am a history teacher, brazilian sign language interpreter, >>> so, I would like to present you our bilingual book Portuguese / Libras / >>> sign writing, our goal is to promote sign language and sig writing as well. >>> >>> The literary work 'A Saga do Surdo' tells the trajectory of the deaf in >>> the history of mankind, in order to aggregate deaf literature and provide >>> the experience of a bilingual reading to its readers, encouraging and >>> disseminating Libras (Brazilian sign language). >>> >>> Accessible in Libras (Brazilian sign language), with texts in Portuguese >>> and SignWriting (Sign Writing), the illustrated book covers the main facts >>> of this history, starting in Ancient Egypt until the achievement of the >>> liberation of sign language (Congress of Paris - 1971), after the Oralist >>> Empire. >>> >>> In a simple and summarized way, the reader will have at hand a brief >>> summary of more than 4000 years of history, in addition, he will be able to >>> learn Libras, Portuguese and Sign Writing in a didactic way. >>> >>> You can see more by watching the video. >>> >>> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=TLPQMzAwMTIwMjF6YiS2ykRMKg&v=_Es24V12sOQ&feature=emb_logo >>> >>> Melquiedes Ferreira Franco. >>> >>> >> ________________________________________________ >> >> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >> >> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >> >> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >> >> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page >> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >> >> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages >> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >> > ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From 0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU Tue Apr 27 19:03:32 2021 From: 0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU (Valerie Sutton) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 12:03:32 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] New Brazilian book 'A Saga do Surdo' with SignWriting In-Reply-To: References: <418D873D-DAB9-4086-9774-E250945113F7@signwriting.org> <3b1c82d3-e4cf-8e71-c90a-cd9b2d2b4130@yahoo.ca> <1FF8FB1A-EBE5-4863-B386-418B0785E5D5@mac.com> Message-ID: <1F455228-A917-4495-8883-87A79A0BB88A@mac.com> SignWriting List April 27, 2021 Hello Melquiedes! YES! I got the book! THANK YOU! I just made a video to thank you in person, and I am uploading the video now so we can share, but for right now, you can see, I got the book and I am MOST grateful for your gift and generosity. I am sorry for my tardiness in responding. There have been many transitions here, and I have been a little sad - My blessings to you and everyone in your family and group and I wish you all a blessed life! More soon - Val ;-) > On Apr 27, 2021, at 11:47 AM, Melquiedes Ferreira Franco wrote: > > I forgot the post code. > Maybe you can check it. > > Ol?. Clique no link para rastrear o objeto c?digo RR034027400BR > https://www.linkcorreios.com.br/RR034027400BR?w=1 > > Melqu?edes > > Em ter, 27 de abr de 2021 15:43, Melquiedes Ferreira Franco > escreveu: > Dear, Valerie Sutton, I am teacher Melqu?edes, we sent the book "A Saga do Surdo" on February 22, 2021. But, we verified that the post office still delivered the book to your address. > As soon as possible we will go to the post office to figure out these situation. Our apologies for the inconvenience. > > Cheers. > > Melqu?edes. > > > Em qui, 4 de fev de 2021 18:01, Valerie Sutton <0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > escreveu: > SignWriting List > February 4th, 2021 > > Hello Melquiedes - > Your English is excellent! > > I would love a copy of your book, Melquiedes. Thank you. I will write to you. > > Congratulations to your daughter and author, Maria Alice Floriano Franco ;-) > > I will create a link on our SignWriting site to your video about the book. > > I used Google Translate to translate some information into English, from the Portuguese you posted, under the video. See below. > > B?NUS: > NA COMPRA DO LIVRO VOC? GANHA UM CURSO B?SICO DE LIBRAS 100% ON LINE. E PARTICIPAR? DA NOSSA COMUNIDADE NO FACEBOOK PARA APRENDER TODOS OS SINAIS EXISTENTES NO LIVRO. > O APRENDIZADO ? CONTEXTUALIZADO COM IMAGENS DAS CENAS DA HIST?RIA, COM AVATARES QUE MOSTRAM AS DIRE??ES DAS CONFIGURA??ES MANUAIS E ALGUMAS EXPRESS?ES FACIAIS. > AL?M DISSO, VOC? APRENDER? A ESCRITA DE SINAIS DE TODOS OS SINAIS MOSTRADOS NA OBRA. TEMOS UMA S?RIE DE B?NUS QUE SER?O LIBERADOS NOS PR?XIMOS MESES. TAIS COMO E-BOOKS, PLAYLISTS DE LIVES PRIVADAS COM CONTE?DO EXPLICATIVO SOBRE O TEMA DO LIVRO. > E TEM MAIS... NOS PR?XIMOS MESES VOC? TER? ACESSO A JOGOS INTERATIVOS DID?TICOS PARA FIXAR O APRENDIZADO ADQUIRIDO NA COMUNIDADE. > > ENGLISH TRANSLATION: > BONUS: > IN PURCHASING THE BOOK YOU GET A BASIC COURSE OF LIBRAS 100% ON LINE. AND YOU WILL PARTICIPATE IN OUR COMMUNITY ON FACEBOOK TO LEARN ALL SIGNS IN THE BOOK. > LEARNING IS CONTEXTUALIZED WITH IMAGES OF HISTORY SCENES, WITH AVATARS THAT SHOW THE DIRECTIONS OF MANUAL SETTINGS AND SOME FACIAL EXPRESSIONS. > ALSO, YOU WILL LEARN THE WRITING OF SIGNS OF ALL THE SIGNS SHOWN IN THE WORK. WE HAVE A BONUS SERIES TO BE RELEASED IN THE NEXT MONTHS. SUCH AS E-BOOKS, PLAYLISTS OF PRIVATE BOOKS WITH EXPLANATORY CONTENT ABOUT THE BOOK'S THEME. > AND IT'S MORE ... IN THE NEXT MONTHS YOU WILL HAVE ACCESS TO INTERACTIVE TEACHING GAMES TO FIX THE LEARNING ACQUIRED IN THE COMMUNITY. > > > How do people purchase the book? > > Val ;-) > > ------------- > > > >> On Feb 3, 2021, at 1:47 PM, Melquiedes Ferreira Franco > wrote: >> >> Wow! you answer me so fast. Thank you for your attention!!! >> Yes, of course, iI would like to see the book on the signwriting website. unfortunately, there is no downloadable version of this book. >> It is sold only in the physical version. >> I would like to know how I can send a book as a gift. That would be an honor for us. >> I was responsible for signwriting, but the author of the book is my daughter, Maria Alice Floriano Franco. >> I?m waiting for your address. >> If I making some mistakes in English, I?m sorry, my English working in progress. >> >> Thank you so much. >> >> Melquiedes. >> >> >> Em qua., 3 de fev. de 2021 ?s 17:18, Valerie Sutton <0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > escreveu: >> SignWriting List >> February 3, 2021 >> >> Thank you, Melquiedes Ferreira Franco, for informing us about your new book ?A Saga do Surdo?, which includes beautiful pages of illustrations with LIBRAS (Brazilian Sign Language) written in SignWriting. And what a great history!! Thank you for the YouTube introduction - so beautiful! How can we purchase or download this book? Do you want me to link to this on our SignWriting site? It would be an honor... >> >> https://youtu.be/_Es24V12sOQ >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Feb 3, 2021, at 11:12 AM, Melquiedes Ferreira Franco > wrote: >>> >>> Hi! Valerie Sutton and other members of the group, my name is Melquiedes, I am a history teacher, brazilian sign language interpreter, so, I would like to present you our bilingual book Portuguese / Libras / sign writing, our goal is to promote sign language and sig writing as well. >>> >>> The literary work 'A Saga do Surdo' tells the trajectory of the deaf in the history of mankind, in order to aggregate deaf literature and provide the experience of a bilingual reading to its readers, encouraging and disseminating Libras (Brazilian sign language). >>> >>> Accessible in Libras (Brazilian sign language), with texts in Portuguese and SignWriting (Sign Writing), the illustrated book covers the main facts of this history, starting in Ancient Egypt until the achievement of the liberation of sign language (Congress of Paris - 1971), after the Oralist Empire. >>> >>> In a simple and summarized way, the reader will have at hand a brief summary of more than 4000 years of history, in addition, he will be able to learn Libras, Portuguese and Sign Writing in a didactic way. >>> >>> You can see more by watching the video. >>> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=TLPQMzAwMTIwMjF6YiS2ykRMKg&v=_Es24V12sOQ&feature=emb_logo >>> >>> Melquiedes Ferreira Franco. > > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Thank you Melquiedes.png Type: image/png Size: 518088 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG Tue Apr 27 22:36:01 2021 From: sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG (Valerie Sutton) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 15:36:01 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] Thank you for "A Saga Do Surdo"! Message-ID: <619909A8-70ED-4E7C-BC04-82FE79960375@signwriting.org> SignWriting List April 27, 2021 Hello Maria Alice Floriano Franco and Melquiedes Ferreira Franco! Thank you for "A Saga Do Surdo?! ;-) https://youtu.be/4vtjTM491sk It arrived very well, a few weeks ago, and it is my fault that I did not tell you sooner. It is an honor to see SignWriting used so beautifully around the world. Would you like me to make you a PDF from the book? I am happy to help ;-) Val ;-) Valerie Sutton sutton at signwriting.org ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: mq2.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 10479 bytes Desc: not available URL: From 00000002a18e4451-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU Wed Apr 28 03:50:00 2021 From: 00000002a18e4451-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU (Jonathan Duncan) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 21:50:00 -0600 Subject: [Sw-l] [SPAM] Re: Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: <7A9944EF-785F-473F-B14F-C7F86B39389F@SIGNWRITING.ORG> References: <2FC8FC1F-461B-4ED2-B726-8A332F4BD08A@gmail.com> <547AE4F1-07F4-4D1C-B694-A34A197D2144@signwriting.org> <2ABE1B97-D8D3-456B-861C-79390B5F7B91@gmail.com> <7A9944EF-785F-473F-B14F-C7F86B39389F@SIGNWRITING.ORG> Message-ID: <4e610728-009c-b3c1-782a-5ce28a49696e@yahoo.ca> Hello Adam, Andre, Cherie, Kacio, Steve, Val and everyone - It's interesting to see so many ways to do things and the combination of viewpoints that is different than the usual way of reading it. I personally prefer the sizes.? As it feels clear, and the way I would write it on paper if I didn't have a movement, or maybe even if I did, just to emphasize the depth. I really like the symbol sizes, and I've included as part of my SignWriting programs which was in 2005,? and has been able to write it to FSW since Steve and I collaborated on the styling. If my memory serves me right, it was concluded that symbol size wasn't necessary to write everyday signwriting.? And it was also much harder to size the PNGs nicely than it is to size the SVGs and Fonts we have today. I agree with you Steve, that it's good to have a separation between text and styling.? And if we change all the symbols by the same % then that is more of a styling than anything else, as if they are all a different size, or if the size isn't changed, it all means the same.? However I do think that we should support different symbols sizes within a sign and for the meaning to depend on the size of the symbols to be able to write what Adam is signing or more exactly, similar examples which do not have movement.? Not that we would use different sizes in the all the signs but that some we can change their size to denote depth when we want to.? And it would be part of the sign and not the styling because removing the size would change the meaning of those signs.? My programs have a separate data structure with can record the size of each individual symbol, which was always lost going to FSW until we got the styling.? But is still lost on some of the other software which doesn't always permit importing some of the styling like the older SignMaker 2015. Of course, for the current common encodings like FSW, etc to record which symbols are not at their default size within the sign part instead of the styling, would require extending the current specifications.? Or we could agree on a basic JSON representation which is a much more flexible data structure and is the common way of sharing and storing data in almost every programming language and in many modern databases. I knew a deaf who wrote his notes, either expressive viewpoint from the back or expressive from the side.? I never saw him draw any from the top.? With just those two views, you could write everything without even having different types of arrows.? But it requires, stating in each sign which viewpoint is drawn.? He would change from one to the other with a quick body manikin in each sign.? We see other signers more often from the side than from the top, so I think it's an easier transition to write oneself from the side than from the top.? I'm not advocating we all write like he did, but I believe that in the case that when depth isn't clear with the expressive view, like in this special case Adam is mentioning, I believe it would prefer to read it from the side view than from the expressive back view. When we can easily write everything we sign the way we normally sign and read it back and sign it the same again, and not feeling that we should sign something just a bit differently so that we can write it without too much trouble, then that would be a perfect writing system. And I believe that that has been and should be the goal of great sign writing systems like SignWriting.? If we can write things simply and intuitively with different size symbols instead of having to switch views to write some signs, then I believe it is improving the ease of use and the ease of adoption of SignWriting. But in the case of writing with software that doesn't do symbol by symbol sizes, I prefer the side view. Thanks for letting me share my 2cents Jonathan On 4/22/2021 11:13 AM, Valerie Sutton wrote: > SignWrting List > April 22, 2021 > > Hello Adam, Andre, Cherie, Kacio, Steve, Jonathan and everyone - > > As you know, the Top View can be mixed with the Front View. The Head > in Top View establishes the ?depth? but the rest of the sign .. the > hands, the movements ? can be written in the Front View, placed either > near or far from the Head & body. It sounds crazy, but this > combination of viewpoints seems to be working for readers. > > And looking at the above diagram I can see other ways to write it too. > So there are a variety of choices. For me, the Movement Arrow gives me > the depth information, but if you do not want to use an arrow, then > the old ?sizes? work very well. > > Originally SignWriting was designed to keep the writing ALL Front > View, using "size of symbols" to write the depth perspective of ?far > away?. Smaller symbols represented ?far away?. > > > > I am aware of the point, that Rich Text is great for individual > documents or signs that can be captured in graphics so the information > is not lost, but in an actual symbolset, the information of ?small? vs > ?large? would be lost if it is just plain text. > > Nonetheless, I am glad to know I can access the smaller symbols in the > two programs and I plan to use it for some demonstrations. > > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > > > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: > sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > > > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page > http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > > > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages > http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > > ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: part1.708400B8.png Type: image/png Size: 5093 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG Wed Apr 28 05:33:20 2021 From: sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG (Valerie Sutton) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 22:33:20 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] [SPAM] Re: Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: <4e610728-009c-b3c1-782a-5ce28a49696e@yahoo.ca> References: <4e610728-009c-b3c1-782a-5ce28a49696e@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <83B3D245-D391-400A-94FD-26C0E381592F@signwriting.org> SignWriting List April 27, 2021 Thank you, Jonathan, for discussing writing from the Side View instead of the Top View. Was the Deaf writer you mentioned who wrote some signs from the Side View - was he or she from Honduras? Is there anyone else who writes some signs from the Side View? Can someone post an example? Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 27, 2021, at 8:50 PM, Jonathan Duncan <00000002a18e4451-dmarc-request at listserv.valenciacollege.edu> wrote: > > ? > Hello Adam, Andre, Cherie, Kacio, Steve, Val and everyone - > > It's interesting to see so many ways to do things and the combination of viewpoints that is different than the usual way of reading it. > > I personally prefer the sizes. As it feels clear, and the way I would write it on paper if I didn't have a movement, or maybe even if I did, just to emphasize the depth. > > I really like the symbol sizes, and I've included as part of my SignWriting programs which was in 2005, and has been able to write it to FSW since Steve and I collaborated on the styling. If my memory serves me right, it was concluded that symbol size wasn't necessary to write everyday signwriting. And it was also much harder to size the PNGs nicely than it is to size the SVGs and Fonts we have today. > > I agree with you Steve, that it's good to have a separation between text and styling. And if we change all the symbols by the same % then that is more of a styling than anything else, as if they are all a different size, or if the size isn't changed, it all means the same. However I do think that we should support different symbols sizes within a sign and for the meaning to depend on the size of the symbols to be able to write what Adam is signing or more exactly, similar examples which do not have movement. Not that we would use different sizes in the all the signs but that some we can change their size to denote depth when we want to. And it would be part of the sign and not the styling because removing the size would change the meaning of those signs. My programs have a separate data structure with can record the size of each individual symbol, which was always lost going to FSW until we got the styling. But is still lost on some of the other software which doesn't always permit importing some of the styling like the older SignMaker 2015. > > Of course, for the current common encodings like FSW, etc to record which symbols are not at their default size within the sign part instead of the styling, would require extending the current specifications. Or we could agree on a basic JSON representation which is a much more flexible data structure and is the common way of sharing and storing data in almost every programming language and in many modern databases. > > I knew a deaf who wrote his notes, either expressive viewpoint from the back or expressive from the side. I never saw him draw any from the top. With just those two views, you could write everything without even having different types of arrows. But it requires, stating in each sign which viewpoint is drawn. He would change from one to the other with a quick body manikin in each sign. We see other signers more often from the side than from the top, so I think it's an easier transition to write oneself from the side than from the top. I'm not advocating we all write like he did, but I believe that in the case that when depth isn't clear with the expressive view, like in this special case Adam is mentioning, I believe it would prefer to read it from the side view than from the expressive back view. > > When we can easily write everything we sign the way we normally sign and read it back and sign it the same again, and not feeling that we should sign something just a bit differently so that we can write it without too much trouble, then that would be a perfect writing system. And I believe that that has been and should be the goal of great sign writing systems like SignWriting. If we can write things simply and intuitively with different size symbols instead of having to switch views to write some signs, then I believe it is improving the ease of use and the ease of adoption of SignWriting. > > But in the case of writing with software that doesn't do symbol by symbol sizes, I prefer the side view. > > Thanks for letting me share my 2cents > > Jonathan > > On 4/22/2021 11:13 AM, Valerie Sutton wrote: >> SignWrting List >> April 22, 2021 >> >> Hello Adam, Andre, Cherie, Kacio, Steve, Jonathan and everyone - >> >> As you know, the Top View can be mixed with the Front View. The Head in Top View establishes the ?depth? but the rest of the sign .. the hands, the movements ? can be written in the Front View, placed either near or far from the Head & body. It sounds crazy, but this combination of viewpoints seems to be working for readers. >> >> And looking at the above diagram I can see other ways to write it too. So there are a variety of choices. For me, the Movement Arrow gives me the depth information, but if you do not want to use an arrow, then the old ?sizes? work very well. >> >> Originally SignWriting was designed to keep the writing ALL Front View, using "size of symbols" to write the depth perspective of ?far away?. Smaller symbols represented ?far away?. >> >> >> >> >> I am aware of the point, that Rich Text is great for individual documents or signs that can be captured in graphics so the information is not lost, but in an actual symbolset, the information of ?small? vs ?large? would be lost if it is just plain text. >> >> Nonetheless, I am glad to know I can access the smaller symbols in the two programs and I plan to use it for some demonstrations. >> >> ________________________________________________ >> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >> >> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >> >> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >> >> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >> >> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >> > ________________________________________________ > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From joyoduncan at GMAIL.COM Wed Apr 28 13:42:58 2021 From: joyoduncan at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Duncan) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2021 07:42:58 -0600 Subject: [Sw-l] [SPAM] Re: Placement of Signs in Space In-Reply-To: <83B3D245-D391-400A-94FD-26C0E381592F@signwriting.org> References: <4e610728-009c-b3c1-782a-5ce28a49696e@yahoo.ca> <83B3D245-D391-400A-94FD-26C0E381592F@signwriting.org> Message-ID: Hi Val, ??? Yes, that Deaf was from Honduras. Jonathan On 4/27/2021 11:33 PM, Valerie Sutton wrote: > SignWriting List > April 27, 2021 > > Thank you, Jonathan, for discussing writing from the Side View instead > of the Top View. Was the Deaf writer you mentioned who wrote some > signs from the Side View - was he or she from Honduras? Is there > anyone else who writes some signs from the Side View? Can someone post > an example? > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Apr 27, 2021, at 8:50 PM, Jonathan Duncan >> <00000002a18e4451-dmarc-request at listserv.valenciacollege.edu> wrote: >> >> ? >> >> Hello Adam, Andre, Cherie, Kacio, Steve, Val and everyone - >> >> It's interesting to see so many ways to do things and the combination >> of viewpoints that is different than the usual way of reading it. >> >> I personally prefer the sizes.? As it feels clear, and the way I >> would write it on paper if I didn't have a movement, or maybe even if >> I did, just to emphasize the depth. >> >> I really like the symbol sizes, and I've included as part of my >> SignWriting programs which was in 2005,? and has been able to write >> it to FSW since Steve and I collaborated on the styling. If my memory >> serves me right, it was concluded that symbol size wasn't necessary >> to write everyday signwriting.? And it was also much harder to size >> the PNGs nicely than it is to size the SVGs and Fonts we have today. >> >> I agree with you Steve, that it's good to have a separation between >> text and styling.? And if we change all the symbols by the same % >> then that is more of a styling than anything else, as if they are all >> a different size, or if the size isn't changed, it all means the >> same. However I do think that we should support different symbols >> sizes within a sign and for the meaning to depend on the size of the >> symbols to be able to write what Adam is signing or more exactly, >> similar examples which do not have movement.? Not that we would use >> different sizes in the all the signs but that some we can change >> their size to denote depth when we want to.? And it would be part of >> the sign and not the styling because removing the size would change >> the meaning of those signs.? My programs have a separate data >> structure with can record the size of each individual symbol, which >> was always lost going to FSW until we got the styling.? But is still >> lost on some of the other software which doesn't always permit >> importing some of the styling like the older SignMaker 2015. >> >> Of course, for the current common encodings like FSW, etc to record >> which symbols are not at their default size within the sign part >> instead of the styling, would require extending the current >> specifications.? Or we could agree on a basic JSON representation >> which is a much more flexible data structure and is the common way of >> sharing and storing data in almost every programming language and in >> many modern databases. >> >> I knew a deaf who wrote his notes, either expressive viewpoint from >> the back or expressive from the side.? I never saw him draw any from >> the top.? With just those two views, you could write everything >> without even having different types of arrows.? But it requires, >> stating in each sign which viewpoint is drawn.? He would change from >> one to the other with a quick body manikin in each sign. We see other >> signers more often from the side than from the top, so I think it's >> an easier transition to write oneself from the side than from the >> top.? I'm not advocating we all write like he did, but I believe that >> in the case that when depth isn't clear with the expressive view, >> like in this special case Adam is mentioning, I believe it would >> prefer to read it from the side view than from the expressive back view. >> >> When we can easily write everything we sign the way we normally sign >> and read it back and sign it the same again, and not feeling that we >> should sign something just a bit differently so that we can write it >> without too much trouble, then that would be a perfect writing >> system. And I believe that that has been and should be the goal of >> great sign writing systems like SignWriting.? If we can write things >> simply and intuitively with different size symbols instead of having >> to switch views to write some signs, then I believe it is improving >> the ease of use and the ease of adoption of SignWriting. >> >> But in the case of writing with software that doesn't do symbol by >> symbol sizes, I prefer the side view. >> >> Thanks for letting me share my 2cents >> >> Jonathan >> >> On 4/22/2021 11:13 AM, Valerie Sutton wrote: >>> SignWrting List >>> April 22, 2021 >>> >>> Hello Adam, Andre, Cherie, Kacio, Steve, Jonathan and everyone - >>> >>> As you know, the Top View can be mixed with the Front View. The Head >>> in Top View establishes the ?depth? but the rest of the sign .. the >>> hands, the movements ? can be written in the Front View, placed >>> either near or far from the Head & body. It sounds crazy, but this >>> combination of viewpoints seems to be working for readers. >>> >>> And looking at the above diagram I can see other ways to write it >>> too. So there are a variety of choices. For me, the Movement Arrow >>> gives me the depth information, but if you do not want to use an >>> arrow, then the old ?sizes? work very well. >>> >>> Originally SignWriting was designed to keep the writing ALL Front >>> View, using "size of symbols" to write the depth perspective of ?far >>> away?. Smaller symbols represented ?far away?. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I am aware of the point, that Rich Text is great for individual >>> documents or signs that can be captured in graphics so the >>> information is not lost, but in an actual symbolset, the information >>> of ?small? vs ?large? would be lost if it is just plain text. >>> >>> Nonetheless, I am glad to know I can access the smaller symbols in >>> the two programs and I plan to use it for some demonstrations. >>> >>> ________________________________________________ >>> >>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>> >>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >>> >>> >>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: >>> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >>> >>> >>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page >>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>> >>> >>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages >>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >>> >>> >> ________________________________________________ >> >> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >> >> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >> >> >> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: >> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >> >> >> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page >> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >> >> >> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages >> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >> >> > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > > > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: > sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > > > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page > http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > > > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages > http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > > ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jsm88b at GMAIL.COM Wed Apr 28 15:08:55 2021 From: jsm88b at GMAIL.COM (Josenilson da Silva Mendes) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2021 12:08:55 -0300 Subject: [Sw-l] S=?UTF-8?Q?=C3=ADmbolos_de_localiza=C3=A7=C3=A3o_?=exata In-Reply-To: <025CA62C-09F6-48D2-94AF-D76150ED5FEC@gmail.com> References: <901B656C-4A99-49D8-AAA2-46BA382548E5@mac.com> <025CA62C-09F6-48D2-94AF-D76150ED5FEC@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thank you very much for your reply! I am thinking of making some videos with written signs from ASL and Libras using the exact location symbols to exemplify. I'll upload the private videos to YouTube and consult with the signwriting list team. If everything is correct, I will make them public. Josenilson Mendes Em ter., 27 de abr. de 2021 ?s 01:16, Adam Frost escreveu: > Hello Josenilson Mendes, > > For the most part, your understanding of these symbols are correct and > about as well as I understand them myself. I have never seen these symbols > used in actual writing of signs; however, I can see them being used in > SignSpelling which is used for sorting signs. > > They might be helpful and/or necessary to differentiate between different > signs when the symbols are taken from the 3D writing and arranged into a 2D > string for sorting. It might also be helpful for researchers to include > spatial information to search across a database of signs. > > I have added some comments below so you know which symbols I am referring > to. I hope this helps you understand these symbols even though I can?t > think of any specific signs that use these symbols. > > > Adam > > On Apr 26, 2021, at 6:27 PM, Valerie Sutton < > 0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU> wrote: > > SignWriting List > April 26, 2021 > > Google Translation into English: > > We know that symbols of exact location are not commonly used, but they > serve specific purposes for linguistic studies of sign languages. I wonder > if there are any examples of using these exact location symbols in any sign > language. > > We know that this refer to the wall plan: > > How could I use it to describe a signal? Can anyone show me an example? > Would the central point of the octagon be at hip height? > > > Yes, your understanding of these symbols see to be correct. These symbols > would be like telling a location on a wall in front of the signer where the > middle line is likely at the waist or hip height. My guess is that the > first symbol is just a general height indicator of above the center of the > body (or the hip as you stated). The black in the other symbols tell how > much higher or lower from the center point the location is. > > > We know that these refer to the ground plane: > > > How could I use it to describe a signal? Can anyone show me an example? > Does the central point of the octagon refer to the axis of the body, from > head to toe? > > > These symbols would be as if it was on the floor and the signer is > standing in the center. So the first symbol would be to indicate location > in front, while the next three detail how specifically close or far from > the front of the signer. > > > These below refer to the distance of a signal from the body in a top view, > correct? > > > The dash refers to the space in front of the body where a signal is made > and moves, correct? > > > Yes, these three symbols would be telling how close or far from the front > of the signer. In a sense, these three symbols have the same meaning as the > last three in the previous series. > > > These below refer to the height in relation to the torso at which a signal > is made, correct? > > > Correct, these symbols would have a clear relation to the height on the > body that the first series of symbols didn?t have. > > > These below relate to the longitudinal axis of the body and in what > position the signal is made, correct? > > > Yes, that is correct. These symbols give the location on a vertical line > across the body. > > > We know that these below refer to points of contact or exact location on > limbs or parts of the body. > > But what do the white and black circles mean? Are the circles related to > the perspective of the sign? Is there an example? > > > Yes, these symbols give specific location on the arms, fingers, hand, and > torso (in that order). The difference between the circles is the front and > back. I might have this mixed up, but I believe the black circles would be > the locations that you see if you were standing behind the signer, and the > white circles would be the locations that you would see if you were > standing in front of the signer. > > > Is there any video or written material about these exact location symbols? > > Thank you for the answers! > > > ------------- > > On Apr 26, 2021, at 3:26 PM, Josenilson da Silva Mendes > wrote: > > Caros amigos da SW-List, Valerie e Adam, > > > Sabemos que os s?mbolos de localiza??o exata n?o s?o de uso corrente, mas > servem para fins espec?ficos de estudos lingu?sticos de l?nguas de sinais. > Gostaria de saber se h? algum exemplo de uso destes s?mbolos de localiza??o > exata em qualquer l?ngua de sinais. > > Sabemos que este se referem ao plano parede: > > Como eu poderia us?-lo para descrever um sinal? Algu?m pode me mostrar um > exemplo? O ponto central do oct?gono estaria na altura do quadril? > > Sabemos que este se referem ao plano ch?o: > > Como eu poderia us?-lo para descrever um sinal? Algu?m pode me mostrar um > exemplo? O ponto central do oct?gono se refere ao eixo do corpo, da cabe?a > aos p?s? > > Estes abaixo se referem ? dist?ncia da realiza??o de um sinal em rela??o > ao corpo em uma vis?o de cima, correto? > > O tra?o se refere ao espa?o ? frente do corpo onde um sinal ? realizado e > se move, correto? > > Estes abaixo se referem ? altura em rela??o ao torso em que se realiza um > sinal, correto? > > Estes abaixo se relacionam ao eixo longitudinal do corpo e em que posi??o > o sinal ? realizado, correto? > > > Sabemos que estes abaixo se referem a pontos de contato ou localiza??o > exata em membros ou partes do corpo. > > > Mas o que significam os c?rculos branco e o preto? Os c?rculos est?o > relacionados ? perspectiva do sinalizante? H? algum exemplo? > > Existe algum material em v?deo ou escrito sobre estes s?mbolos de > localiza??o exata? > > J? agrade?o pelas respostas! > > Josenilson Mendes > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page > http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages > http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > > > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page > http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages > http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > > > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page > http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages > http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 2851 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG Wed Apr 28 15:56:33 2021 From: sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG (Valerie Sutton) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2021 08:56:33 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] Some Videos on SignWriting Message-ID: <5E40DE95-1E53-468A-B80E-6354AA74FAAE@SIGNWRITING.ORG> SignWriting List April 28, 2021 Some Videos on SignWriting SignWriting Channel on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/c/SignWritingOrg Automatic Sign Language Transcription by Amit Moryossef https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5lw52VKoyOgjNqsAUHwP7w SignWriting Finger Movement Symbols Video Playlist by Adam Frost & Lucinda O?Grady https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLtucu7rJajwZtfv42L8CE2lRyT3xyf1E3 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 From jsm88b at GMAIL.COM Wed Apr 28 15:12:45 2021 From: jsm88b at GMAIL.COM (Josenilson da Silva Mendes) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2021 12:12:45 -0300 Subject: [Sw-l] =?utf-8?q?=5BSPAM=5D_Re=3A_=5BSW-L=5D_Tamanho_de_alguns_s_?= =?utf-8?q?=C3=ADmbolos?= In-Reply-To: References: <8CA86E83-7562-4D8A-A8B1-DC9450FCBF90@mac.com> <59BA67EB-77AE-4A1C-B16F-447D43D03F9B@mac.com> Message-ID: Thanks, Adam and Valerie! It seems that there is still a doubt between you. I know the system is already 46 years old?! I hope you find a more detailed description in old documents. I have always used these symbols as described by Valerie. If there is little space to write them, I select the smaller symbols. However, some researchers here follow the perspective described by Adam that the smallest symbols are for the movement of one finger and the largest for all fingers. The excellent book by Madson and Raquel, I learned a lot from them, does not talk about different sizes for the symbols of finger movements. I constantly refer to the ISWA 2010 reference manual. I had already watched Adam's videos. They are very good! About this particular video, some researchers here believe that the squeeze movement symbol replaces the fist handshape. That is why they write the sign of love, in Libras, like this: [image: image.png] meaning this: [image: image.png] Or they write like this for to hold: [image: image.png] To say this correctly: [image: image.png] Until next time! Josenilson Em ter., 27 de abr. de 2021 ?s 13:08, F?sica em Libras < tr.vanessa.ferreira at gmail.com> escreveu: > I usually use them to register if the Finger open just a little or wide > open. > > Vanessa Cristina da Silva Ferreira > > Mestranda em Educa??o em Ci?ncias e Matem?tica/PPGEduCIMAT/UFRRJ > Licenciada em F?sica/UFRRJ > Colaboradora do Coletivo PNE/UFRRJ > Colaboradora do Projeto Cultura Visual - Imers?o na Libras - DLC/UFRRJ > Colaboradora do Projeto Meninas do Radium - LEFERCE - UFRRJ > > Em seg, 26 de abr de 2021 20:28, Valerie Sutton < > 0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at listserv.valenciacollege.edu> escreveu: > >> Hi Adam - >> I appreciate your answer truly. ;-) >> >> I guess I meant ?more than one finger? - I am not sure either - I am >> trying to remember why we put two different sizes in the ISWA 2010 - it was >> a lot of work to do that - Originally I did the dot-by-dot development for >> the pngs, and then you did the SVG (thank you so much, Adam ;-). So when >> you think about it, there had to be a reason! >> >> For those who might be interested, Adam did videos teaching these symbols: >> >> https://youtu.be/F4wIpupyNtY >> >> I will write again when I find a really good answer ;-) >> >> Val ;-) >> >> >> >> On Apr 26, 2021, at 4:17 PM, Adam Frost wrote: >> >> I am not sure about the meaning of ?more than one?. In fact, when you put >> it that way, it doesn?t seem right. :-) >> >> Like I said, I don't personally write with the smaller symbols, so it is >> possible I understand it wrong. :-) >> >> Yes, I think we need to check out the older documents. :-) >> >> >> Adam >> >> On Apr 26, 2021, at 4:08 PM, Valerie Sutton >> wrote: >> >> SignWriting List >> April 26, 2021 >> >> QUESTION: Small and large Finger Movement Symbols - does size mean how >> many fingers move? >> >> ANSWER: No. My memory was that the Size is there just for convenience >> when writing. Some signs need more space to write and so the smaller size >> is useful in those cases, and some signs look better with the larger >> symbol. I see Adam feels they do mean ?more than one?, but no matter what, >> they are ?one time movement?. If they move ?open-open? - in other words - >> two movements in a row - then there are two written - >> >> Let me look up our early textbooks to be sure of all this (smile)! Did >> you know that the system in 46 years old? And some of these particulars >> evolved over time - so it would be good to review it - >> >> What did Madson and Raquel?s book ?SignWriting Without Mysteries? say? >> >> The symbols are listed in the ISWA 2010 HTML Reference Manual Online. >> Here is Group 12: >> >> https://www.signbank.org/iswa/216_sg.html >> >> >> >> >> ________________________ >> >> >> SignWriting List >> April 26, 2021 >> >> English Translation from Google: >> >> Dear Valerie and Adam Frost, A question arose among some fellow >> SignWriting researchers as to why these symbols have different sizes. When >> should we write the largest and when should we write the smallest? Does it >> have anything to do with the amount of fingers that move? >> Grateful for the attention! Josenilson Mendes >> >> ____________ >> >> On Apr 26, 2021, at 3:20 PM, Josenilson da Silva Mendes >> wrote: >> >> Caros Valerie e Adam Frost, >> >> Surgiu uma d?vida entre alguns colegas pesquisadores de escrita de sinais >> sobre a raz?o pela qual estes s?mbolos t?m tamanhos diferentes. Quando >> devemos escrever o maior e quando escrever o menor? Tem alguma rela??o com >> a quantidade de dedos que se movem? >> >> Grato pela aten??o! >> Josenilson Mendes >> ________________________________________________ >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________________________ >> >> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >> >> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >> >> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >> >> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page >> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >> >> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages >> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >> >> >> ________________________________________________ >> >> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >> >> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >> >> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >> >> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page >> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >> >> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages >> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >> >> >> ________________________________________________ >> >> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >> >> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org >> >> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu >> >> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page >> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >> >> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages >> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >> > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page > http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages > http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 4392 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 3391 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 4552 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 2896 bytes Desc: not available URL: From slevin at SIGNPUDDLE.NET Thu Apr 29 12:13:53 2021 From: slevin at SIGNPUDDLE.NET (Stephen Slevinski) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2021 07:13:53 -0500 Subject: [Sw-l] New German Sign Language dictionary and other developments Message-ID: <51f3ecdf-1900-10ab-0a24-04fc55d3a38a@signpuddle.net> Hi SignWriting list, It's really great hearing about new developments with SignWriting. Recently Shinichiro Nakayama posted two videos from Edogawa Ward, Tokyo. He uses SignWriting to teach Japanese Sign Language. * https://www.facebook.com/groups/SuttonSignWriting Searching Twitter, I came across a new German Sign Language dictionary available online. It's called sign2mint and it uses SignWriting images from Delegs. * https://sign2mint.de * https://delegs.de This week I was contacted about a new secret project. I'm not allowed to share any of the details yet. You've probably heard of the company. This could be huge. I miss working full-time with SignWriting. I'm hoping to return to full-time development in the coming years. There is still a lot to do and it's so much fun. Regards, -Steve https://steve.signwriting.org ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG Thu Apr 29 14:13:40 2021 From: sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG (Valerie Sutton) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2021 07:13:40 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] New German Sign Language dictionary and other developments In-Reply-To: <51f3ecdf-1900-10ab-0a24-04fc55d3a38a@signpuddle.net> References: <51f3ecdf-1900-10ab-0a24-04fc55d3a38a@signpuddle.net> Message-ID: <281AF147-463A-4C8E-A9B9-C9751E9DA68F@signwriting.org> SignWriting List April 29, 2021 Hello SignWriting List, and Steve ;-) Thank you for telling us about these projects using SignWriting in Japan and Germany! Wonderful to follow the links to see the videos. And many thanks to the DELEGS software team for providing the software, that is connected with SignPuddle Online. I am so happy to see the German Online dictionary that has developed from that - wow ;-) And yesterday I was contacted by two other projects that are brand new from other countries too - it is a busy time! So happy Steve, to hear of all your work and of course we are happy that all is so fulfilling - Thank you for all you do everyday to keep SignWriting afloat - Have a great day! Val ;-) ----------------- > On Apr 29, 2021, at 5:13 AM, Stephen Slevinski wrote: > > Hi SignWriting list, > > It's really great hearing about new developments with SignWriting. > > Recently Shinichiro Nakayama posted two videos from Edogawa Ward, Tokyo. > He uses SignWriting to teach Japanese Sign Language. > * https://www.facebook.com/groups/SuttonSignWriting > > Searching Twitter, I came across a new German Sign Language dictionary available online. > It's called sign2mint and it uses SignWriting images from Delegs. > * https://sign2mint.de > * https://delegs.de > > This week I was contacted about a new secret project. > I'm not allowed to share any of the details yet. > You've probably heard of the company. > This could be huge. > > I miss working full-time with SignWriting. > I'm hoping to return to full-time development in the coming years. > There is still a lot to do and it's so much fun. > > Regards, > -Steve > https://steve.signwriting.org > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jsm88b at GMAIL.COM Thu Apr 29 20:09:58 2021 From: jsm88b at GMAIL.COM (Josenilson da Silva Mendes) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2021 17:09:58 -0300 Subject: [Sw-l] Torso movement Message-ID: Dear Valerie, Adam and SignWriting List participants, I have some questions about writing body movement symbols. I transcribed Stefan Goldschmidt's video by SignWriting. The video link is this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gl3vqLeOyEE The transcript link is this: https://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/searchword.php?ui=12&sgn=114&sid=1920&sTrm=bola+de+golfe&type=any&sTxt=&sSrc=& At 0:03 and 0:04 in the video, Stefan moves his torso up and down, respectively. [image: image.png] [image: image.png] [image: image.png] [image: image.png] I transcribed the movements like this: [image: image.png] At the moment 0:10 [image: image.png] [image: image.png] I transcribed it like this: [image: image.png] At the moment 0:26 [image: image.png] I transcribed it like this: [image: image.png] I would like your help on using the torso movement symbols. Should I use only the arrows without the shoulders? Is reading easy? Are there any notes or questions about the complete transcript? I want to do more video transcription work like this. Your help will be very valuable. Thanks! Josenilson ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 274659 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 272088 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 271653 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 9278 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG Fri Apr 30 03:18:17 2021 From: sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG (Valerie Sutton) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2021 20:18:17 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] Torso movement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <98B4B200-B4E4-44B1-8AA9-1C1B01F810DA@signwriting.org> SignWriting List April 29, 2021 Hello Josenilson and team members! You are keeping Adam and me very busy! ;-) Which is wonderful. I just wanted to make some comments on previous answers to your questions, and haven?t had the chance yet to get there... So tomorrow morning is another day? Thank you, everyone, for your active interest in SignWriting - our cup runneth over ;-) Val ;-) ????? > On Apr 29, 2021, at 1:09 PM, Josenilson da Silva Mendes wrote: > > Dear Valerie, Adam and SignWriting List participants, > > I have some questions about writing body movement symbols. > > I transcribed Stefan Goldschmidt's video by SignWriting. The video link is this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gl3vqLeOyEE > The transcript link is this: https://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/searchword.php?ui=12&sgn=114&sid=1920&sTrm=bola+de+golfe&type=any&sTxt=&sSrc=& > At 0:03 and 0:04 in the video, Stefan moves his torso up and down, respectively. > > > > > > > > > > > > > I transcribed the movements like this: > > > > > At the moment 0:10 > > > > > > > > I transcribed it like this: > > > > > At the moment 0:26 > > > > > I transcribed it like this: > > > > > I would like your help on using the torso movement symbols. Should I use only the arrows without the shoulders? Is reading easy? > > Are there any notes or questions about the complete transcript? > > I want to do more video transcription work like this. > > Your help will be very valuable. > > > Thanks! > > Josenilson > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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(on Facebook) Message-ID: <7C758DD6-27BE-488D-8D12-84E95BC13EF3@signwriting.org> SignWriting List April 29, 2021 SignWriting in Japan!! (on Facebook) https://www.facebook.com/100003848814312/videos/pcb.2914305022222760/2009622265842714 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jsm88b at GMAIL.COM Fri Apr 30 17:21:43 2021 From: jsm88b at GMAIL.COM (Josenilson da Silva Mendes) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2021 17:21:43 +0000 Subject: [Sw-l] Some Videos on SignWriting In-Reply-To: <5E40DE95-1E53-468A-B80E-6354AA74FAAE@SIGNWRITING.ORG> References: <5E40DE95-1E53-468A-B80E-6354AA74FAAE@SIGNWRITING.ORG> Message-ID: Josenilson da Silva Mendes est? convidando voc? para uma reuni?o Zoom agendada. T?pico: Some Videos on SignWriting Entrar na reuni?o Zoom https://us04web.zoom.us/j/77034817821?pwd=RmRJQk42eFRDc3FjMDRJTzFVNVowdz09 ID da reuni?o: 770 3481 7821 Senha de acesso: 596745 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG Fri Apr 30 18:01:46 2021 From: sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG (Valerie Sutton) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2021 11:01:46 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] SignWriting Mobile Site Message-ID: <925487A0-9543-4B24-B83C-589DF2D8F0A7@signwriting.org> SignWriting List April 30, 2021 Hello SignWriting List! I am happy to announce a new website for SignWriting: SignWriting Mobile Site by Richard Gleaves https://m.signwriting.org The "m" is short for "mobile" ? this website is designed to work well on mobile devices such as tablets and phones. This is a preview version of the website, so it may need some corrections and improvements. In particular, three parts of it are still under construction: search, the Symbol Explorer app, and the News section. Please try out this new website, and post any comments you have about it here on the SignWriting List. Thanks for your feedback! Val ;-) ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG Fri Apr 30 18:13:22 2021 From: sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG (Valerie Sutton) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2021 11:13:22 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] Some Videos on SignWriting In-Reply-To: References: <5E40DE95-1E53-468A-B80E-6354AA74FAAE@SIGNWRITING.ORG> Message-ID: SignWriting List April 30, 2021 Hello SignWriting List and Josenilson! Thank you for your invitation to this zoom meeting. Josenilson da Silva Mendes is inviting you to a scheduled Zoom meeting. What day and time does it begin? Did you know that I do not know Portuguese or LIBRAS? Will there be interpreters, or do you speak English or Danish or ASL? (Big smile) Val ;-) ---------- > On Apr 30, 2021, at 10:21 AM, jsm88b at gmail.com wrote: > > Josenilson da Silva Mendes est? convidando voc? para uma reuni?o Zoom agendada. > > T?pico: Some Videos on SignWriting > > Entrar na reuni?o Zoom > https://us04web.zoom.us/j/77034817821?pwd=RmRJQk42eFRDc3FjMDRJTzFVNVowdz09 > > ID da reuni?o: 770 3481 7821 > Senha de acesso: 596745 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG Fri Apr 30 18:37:12 2021 From: sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG (Valerie Sutton) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2021 11:37:12 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] Some Videos on SignWriting In-Reply-To: References: <5E40DE95-1E53-468A-B80E-6354AA74FAAE@SIGNWRITING.ORG> Message-ID: Tell us when ;-) > On Apr 30, 2021, at 11:13 AM, Valerie Sutton wrote: > > SignWriting List > April 30, 2021 > > Hello SignWriting List and Josenilson! > Thank you for your invitation to this zoom meeting. > > Josenilson da Silva Mendes is inviting you to a scheduled Zoom meeting. > > What day and time does it begin? Did you know that I do not know Portuguese or LIBRAS? Will there be interpreters, or do you speak English or Danish or ASL? (Big smile) > > Val ;-) > > ---------- > >> On Apr 30, 2021, at 10:21 AM, jsm88b at gmail.com wrote: >> >> Josenilson da Silva Mendes est? convidando voc? para uma reuni?o Zoom agendada. >> >> T?pico: Some Videos on SignWriting >> >> Entrar na reuni?o Zoom >> https://us04web.zoom.us/j/77034817821?pwd=RmRJQk42eFRDc3FjMDRJTzFVNVowdz09 >> >> ID da reuni?o: 770 3481 7821 >> Senha de acesso: 596745 > > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jsm88b at GMAIL.COM Fri Apr 30 17:04:04 2021 From: jsm88b at GMAIL.COM (Josenilson da Silva Mendes) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2021 14:04:04 -0300 Subject: [Sw-l] Some Videos on SignWriting In-Reply-To: References: <5E40DE95-1E53-468A-B80E-6354AA74FAAE@SIGNWRITING.ORG> Message-ID: Forgive me! It was an accident? Josenilson Mendes Em sex., 30 de abr. de 2021 ?s 15:37, Valerie Sutton escreveu: > Tell us when ;-) > > > > On Apr 30, 2021, at 11:13 AM, Valerie Sutton > wrote: > > SignWriting List > April 30, 2021 > > Hello SignWriting List and Josenilson! > Thank you for your invitation to this zoom meeting. > > Josenilson da Silva Mendes is inviting you to a scheduled Zoom meeting. > > > What day and time does it begin? Did you know that I do not know > Portuguese or LIBRAS? Will there be interpreters, or do you speak English > or Danish or ASL? (Big smile) > > Val ;-) > > ---------- > > On Apr 30, 2021, at 10:21 AM, jsm88b at gmail.com wrote: > > Josenilson da Silva Mendes est? convidando voc? para uma reuni?o Zoom > agendada. > > T?pico: Some Videos on SignWriting > > Entrar na reuni?o Zoom > https://us04web.zoom.us/j/77034817821?pwd=RmRJQk42eFRDc3FjMDRJTzFVNVowdz09 > > ID da reuni?o: 770 3481 7821 > Senha de acesso: 596745 > > > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page > http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages > http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > > > ________________________________________________ > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org > > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu > > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page > http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages > http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From 0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU Fri Apr 30 19:09:19 2021 From: 0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU (Valerie Sutton) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2021 12:09:19 -0700 Subject: [Sw-l] Some Videos on SignWriting In-Reply-To: References: <5E40DE95-1E53-468A-B80E-6354AA74FAAE@SIGNWRITING.ORG> Message-ID: SignWriting List April 30, 2021 Hello Josenilson! No problem. I look forward to meeting you online in the future. I will be answering your questions soon, along with Adam, who has been wonderful answering so many interesting questions. Adam and I enjoyed chatting on FaceTime yesterday about technical issues and I find it fascinating to discuss these issues. So we have fun times ahead ;-) And this says in ASL (at least in my ASL :-) Look forward to meeting you online! > On Apr 30, 2021, at 10:04 AM, Josenilson da Silva Mendes wrote: > Forgive me! > It was an accident? > Josenilson Mendes > ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.png Type: image/png Size: 12563 bytes Desc: not available URL: