# [Sw-l] [SPAM] Re: Placement of Signs in Space

Cherie Wren 000000111c1a7803-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
Thu Apr 22 16:21:49 EDT 2021

``` "Now I wonder how this would have been written if the last sign “5” wasn’t there, so as to say "I support the Diamondbacks and we have 4.” That would mean that there would be no movement to show depth for the first option."
I sign that usually one handed meaning I start with the 4 near my chest and move out to so the 5 is aiming at whoever supports that team. That way you have a movement arrow to show depth.

On Thursday, April 22, 2021, 03:16:38 PM EDT, Adam Frost <icemandeaf at gmail.com> wrote:

The Head in Top View establishes the “depth” but the rest of the sign .. the hands, the movements … can be written in the Front View, placed either near or far from the Head & body.

Interesting. Something I wasn’t sure about since I don’t generally write with the Head in Top View. ;-) I just wasn’t sure if the sign should be read from the top view rather than the front view. But I can learn the “rule” that it would be read from front view with the added information of depth.
Now I wonder how this would have been written if the last sign “5” wasn’t there, so as to say "I support the Diamondbacks and we have 4.” That would mean that there would be no movement to show depth for the first option. The shoulder line would just make it seem like the hand is at the height placed rather than depth. So it appears that the Head in Top View would be the best option. Is that correct?
I agree that the sizing would be a nice way to show depth, but I can understand Steve’s point about that sort of information being easily lost. This reminds me of superscripts and subscripts. They aren’t generally used in everyday writing, but they are used in math and science, such as x2 and H2O. When written in plain text, they show as x2 and H2O. This even happens with 1st and 2nd being written as 1st and 2nd. I know that in the math case, plain text is often written as x^2 to show that it is superscripted. So I guess that would be like placing the head in top view to show depth in plain text and then using sizing to show it in rich text? An interesting thought. ;-)
Now on a different tangent, could a fourth option (no including the sizing) be with this side view head?  Would signs written with this be written to fit that view, or would they stay in Front View?

On Apr 22, 2021, at 10:13 AM, Valerie Sutton <sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG> wrote:

SignWrting ListApril 22, 2021
Hello Adam, Andre, Cherie, Kacio, Steve, Jonathan and everyone -
Thank you for your messages and diagrams about "writing depth”. What wonderful messages you all posted, There are so many ways to write this...
And thank you Adam, for the two videos posted yesterday. They helped me a lot ;-)
As you know, the Top View can be mixed with the Front View. The Head in Top View establishes the “depth” but the rest of the sign .. the hands, the movements … can be written in the Front View, placed either near or far from the Head & body. It sounds crazy, but this combination of viewpoints seems to be working for readers.
The Front View also works with the Shoulder Line. It is clear that the second handshape is “far away” because of the Movement Arrow putting it there at the end of the movement. See diagram:
<3 Ways To Write Depth v1.jpg>
And looking at the above diagram I can see other ways to write it too. So there are a variety of choices. For me, the Movement Arrow gives me the depth information, but if you do not want to use an arrow, then the old “sizes” work very well.
Originally SignWriting was designed to keep the writing ALL Front View, using "size of symbols" to write the depth perspective of “far away”. Smaller symbols represented “far away”.
<part1.708400B8.png>

This would work well with video transcription, such as Amit Moryossef’s amazing software representation of a stick figure on a video:
<Amit Moryossef.png>
https://youtu.be/pCKRWSNIaNQ

So originally, the general “Movement Writing” system was designed without mixing viewpoints within one sign.
I want to thank Steve Slevinski for his posting about CSS Styling strings and the fact that Steve’s styling strings make it possible in software to change the size of symbols, and thank you Steve, for SignMaker 2017  and thank you, Jonathan, for the Quick SignEditor programs that are implementing those styling strings right now. I am grateful for your efforts and I hope to use the size differences now to write a technical document about these issues.
I am aware of the point, that Rich Text is great for individual documents or signs that can be captured in graphics so the information is not lost, but in an actual symbolset, the information of “small” vs “large” would be lost if it is just plain text.
Nonetheless, I am glad to know I can access the smaller symbols in the two programs and I plan to use it for some demonstrations.
I have more to share later - hope you all can get up from your computers and do some exercise - it is so easy to sit for hours without realizing we need to move too!
Have a great day everyone -
Val ;-)
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