[Sw-l] Placement of Signs in Space

Adam Frost icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM
Fri Apr 23 10:40:22 EDT 2021 

You’re right about the Raked Stage. I noticed that with the last writing with the “Depth Lines” as you aptly called it. I almost wanted to add connecting lines on the side to complete the stage look. Ha!

That is an interesting question of showing depth (if it is important for the writing). Let’s say I wanted to make it clear that a person crosses my path close to me and the later another person crosses my path farther up ahead. The line would be longer and shorter to show that distance.



Would this be readable?


Adam

> On Apr 23, 2021, at 7:13 AM, Valerie Sutton <sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG> wrote:
> 
> SignWriting List
> April 23, 2021
> 
> Actually, Adam, the lines you show in this email, with the longer one closer to the chest, feels like the concept of the Raked Stage, which our Movement Writing system was built on. Back in 1974 in Denmark I was teaching a troupe of ballet dancers DanceWriting, in Tivoli Gardens during the summer, and we would congregate for the class I was teaching on the stage that they would perform on, that evening. And the very old stage at Tivoli Gardens was hundreds of years old, and it was “raked”, meaning slanted down towards the audience. So I was sitting in the front seat of the audience looking at the dancers on stage, and the slant brought them closer to me in the audience. So the writing system was designed to write on a Raked Stage, so that the reader, in the audience, sees anything closer to the reader a little larger on a slant.
> 
> So you followed that theme perfectly with your invention of the longer line being “closer to the reader’s chest”.
> 
> So I really like this for “positions” of one hand close and one hand far, both “placed” in those positions.
> 
> But, if there is a movement between them, and this is all the right hand and it is not a right hand close and a left hand far - then I need a Movement Arrow. How can I know which position started the movement without an arrow? Did you start in the back or did you start in the front?
> 
> So for positioning or placing two hands for depth I love the “Depth Lines” if they are different hands -
> 
> Those are my thoughts ;-)
> 
> Thank you for working on this - Thanks for the Depth Lines!
> 
> Val ;-)
> 
> ———
> 
> 
> 
>> On Apr 22, 2021, at 4:32 PM, Adam Frost <icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM <mailto:icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM>> wrote:
>> 
>> That is actually an interesting thought about the placement of two people in space. I hadn’t really thought of trying the lines that way, although I don’t see why it couldn’t be used in that way.
>> 
>> This is probably how I would have tried writing that concept without changing view points before the line being used.
>> 
>> <Screen Shot 2021-04-22 at 4.29.15 PM.png>
>> 
>> It doesn’t tell how far they are apart or even that they are on the same level with one in front of the other rather than one above the other. However, if I used the lines, it might look like this.
>> 
>> <Screen Shot 2021-04-22 at 4.31.02 PM.png>
>> 
>> Kind of interesting how there is the possibility of detailing how much distance is between this way. Much like the Top View as well.
>> 
>> I am not sure if this is “the” solution in the cases when this might be necessary, but I could actually see it being possible. Still letting it marinate for the movement. ;-)
>> 
>> <namesign.png>
>> Adam
>> 
>>> On Apr 22, 2021, at 3:59 PM, Valerie Sutton <sutton at DANCEWRITING.ORG <mailto:sutton at DANCEWRITING.ORG>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> SignWriting List
>>> April 22, 2021
>>> 
>>> Thanks for your emails Cherie - it is really great to hear from you.
>>> 
>>> I think I see your point, which I too have thought about. Maybe the Movement Arrows moving the 5 Hand into the 4 Hand could not be used to show depth, if both hands are “placed in space”, almost like a classifier, without the movement in-between - that kind of situation, where a movment between the two hands cannot be used, does really feel like it needs two sizes… like “setting up” two people in space - one far away and one closer - that would not use Movement Arrows - then maybe the Top View is necessary and placing the two people in space is one sign where both hands arrive at their destination at the same time - one far from the Tope View Head and one close to the body - 
>>> 
>>> So Adam is this where you would use the two lines?
>>> 
>>> I am going to search for an old document I have on writing classifiers that were a little like this - but we were using sizes -
>>> 
>>> Thanks again - and have a great evening -
>>> 
>>> Val ;-)
>>> 
>>> ----------
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Apr 22, 2021, at 1:41 PM, Cherie Wren <000000111c1a7803-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU <mailto:000000111c1a7803-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> I'm trying to thing of a time I've used just one without the other.  If I am talking about one teams score without the other, then I would just place it midway in neutral space.  The only time I do the close/far is when I have two things to talk about.  What makes the close/far situation is that we are combining the numbers with other information.  "I support this team, you support that one, MY team scored 4, your team scored 5."  In English those would be separate utterances, but they can be combined visually in ASL.  The same way we set up people in space and then refer to that space instead of saying their name every time, like we have to do in English.  The use of space is an additional layer of meaning for this...  Does that make sense?  An example of layering that I use sometimes is translating the English, "There is a man over there!!"  Look at all them words!  In ASL it could be MAN signed with one hand and point with the other with a frightened/panicked look on the face. Not sure how I would write that...
>>>> 
>>>> On Thursday, April 22, 2021, 04:29:37 PM EDT, Adam Frost <icemandeaf at gmail.com <mailto:icemandeaf at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> It happens to the best of us. ;-)
>>>> 
>>>> So I have a question for you. How would you write the same sentence without the ending with 5? There wouldn’t be any movement going outward to end with the 5. It would end with the 4 close to the chest.
>>>> 
>>>> Conversely, how would you write the sentence if only the other teams score was given, with the 5 farther away?
>>>> 
>>>> <namesign.png>
>>>> Adam
>>>> 
>>>>> On Apr 22, 2021, at 1:24 PM, Cherie Wren <000000111c1a7803-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU <mailto:000000111c1a7803-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> ooops, should have read all my emails before I replied.... :smile:
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Thursday, April 22, 2021, 01:14:26 PM EDT, Valerie Sutton <sutton at signwriting.org <mailto:sutton at signwriting.org>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> SignWrting List
>>>>> April 22, 2021
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hello Adam, Andre, Cherie, Kacio, Steve, Jonathan and everyone -
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thank you for your messages and diagrams about "writing depth”. What wonderful messages you all posted, There are so many ways to write this...
>>>>> 
>>>>> And thank you Adam, for the two videos posted yesterday. They helped me a lot ;-)
>>>>> 
>>>>> As you know, the Top View can be mixed with the Front View. The Head in Top View establishes the “depth” but the rest of the sign .. the hands, the movements … can be written in the Front View, placed either near or far from the Head & body. It sounds crazy, but this combination of viewpoints seems to be working for readers.
>>>>> 
>>>>> The Front View also works with the Shoulder Line. It is clear that the second handshape is “far away” because of the Movement Arrow putting it there at the end of the movement. See diagram:
>>>>> 
>>>>> <3 Ways To Write Depth v1.jpg>
>>>>> 
>>>>> And looking at the above diagram I can see other ways to write it too. So there are a variety of choices. For me, the Movement Arrow gives me the depth information, but if you do not want to use an arrow, then the old “sizes” work very well.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Originally SignWriting was designed to keep the writing ALL Front View, using "size of symbols" to write the depth perspective of “far away”. Smaller symbols represented “far away”.
>>>>> 
>>>>> <part1.708400B8.png>
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> This would work well with video transcription, such as Amit Moryossef’s amazing software representation of a stick figure on a video:
>>>>> 
>>>>> <Amit Moryossef.png>
>>>>> 
>>>>> https://youtu.be/pCKRWSNIaNQ <https://youtu.be/pCKRWSNIaNQ>
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> So originally, the general “Movement Writing” system was designed without mixing viewpoints within one sign. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> I want to thank Steve Slevinski for his posting about CSS Styling strings and the fact that Steve’s styling strings make it possible in software to change the size of symbols, and thank you Steve, for SignMaker 2017 <https://signbank.org/signmaker.html>  and thank you, Jonathan, for the Quick SignEditor <https://jonathandduncan.github.io/QuickSignEditor/> programs that are implementing those styling strings right now. I am grateful for your efforts and I hope to use the size differences now to write a technical document about these issues.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I am aware of the point, that Rich Text is great for individual documents or signs that can be captured in graphics so the information is not lost, but in an actual symbolset, the information of “small” vs “large” would be lost if it is just plain text.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Nonetheless, I am glad to know I can access the smaller symbols in the two programs and I plan to use it for some demonstrations.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I have more to share later - hope you all can get up from your computers and do some exercise - it is so easy to sit for hours without realizing we need to move too!
>>>>> 
>>>>> Have a great day everyone -
>>>>> 
>>>>> Val ;-)
>>>>> 
>>>>> ________________________________________________
>>>>> 
>>>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>>>> 
>>>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org <mailto:sutton at signwriting.org>
>>>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu <mailto:sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu>
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>>>>> 
>>>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>>>> 
>>>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org <mailto:sutton at signwriting.org>
>>>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu <mailto:sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu>
>>>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist <http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist>
>>>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 <http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1><part1.708400B8.png><3 Ways To Write Depth v1.jpg><Amit Moryossef.png>
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ________________________________________________
>>>> 
>>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>>> 
>>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org <mailto:sutton at signwriting.org>
>>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu <mailto:sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu>
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>>>> 
>>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
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>>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org <mailto:sutton at signwriting.org>
>>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu <mailto:sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu>
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>>>> 
>>> 
>>> ________________________________________________
>>> 
>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>> 
>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org <mailto:sutton at signwriting.org>
>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu <mailto:sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu>
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>> ________________________________________________
>> 
>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>> 
>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org <mailto:sutton at signwriting.org>
>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu <mailto:sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu>
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> ________________________________________________
> 
> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
> 
> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org <mailto:sutton at signwriting.org>
> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu <mailto:sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu>
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